Dumbed downed Warlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dumbed downed Warlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
the_fenris_wolf
10-15-06, 08:41 PM My dm seriously thinks that the wrlock is way overpowered, i disagree but he thinks that the unlimeted blasts thing is unbalanced, as a level 8 warlock (which i am going to be) is able to dish out 5d6 damage all day long.
My dm will only allow the Warlock if i tone it down. I really would like to keep the unlimited blasts thing as it is one of the coolest things of the warlock, so i was wondering what things u think i should dumb down.
One of my ideas is to give the blast a max range of 30', essentially getting rid of the eldritch spear.
Any other ideas.

Cheers:D

Fenris
Tempest Stormwind
10-15-06, 08:54 PM Send your DM to the boards.

Virtually any board can prove to him that the warlock isn't overpowered.

For a real wake-up, send him to the CO board library. I won't pay for his medical expenses afterward, though.

See also the RadicalTaoist quote in my sig.
Tiefling_Warlock
10-15-06, 09:12 PM Show him how much a properly made anything else can do, especially wizard. This should show him that ulimited times per day isn't that good. Also explain that the Warlock was made for 4 fights a day.
a_psh
10-15-06, 09:41 PM Build an archer of the same level and show him the character sheet to prove that the eldritch blast really isn't a big deal.
Toloran
10-15-06, 10:53 PM The problem is that you are right at the levels where the warlock is their strongest. At that point they get fly AND invisibility for 24 hours a day. From that point on (however) other classes will begin to out pace them until they become little more then weak archers.
kelvinaw273
10-15-06, 11:06 PM 5d6 is not broken at 8th level, especially as you need to hit it. Yes, it racks up as attrition damage, but that's it. Any magic-using class could hit you for at least once or twice for 8d6 at that level.

The two best counters to a warlock are a Psion prepared to nova (he can dish out the damage like nobody's business) and a monk (high touch AC).
Generic Poster
10-16-06, 01:04 AM 5d6 is not broken at 8th level, especially as you need to hit it. Yes, it racks up as attrition damage, but that's it. Any magic-using class could hit you for at least once or twice for 8d6 at that level.

The two best counters to a warlock are a Psion prepared to nova (he can dish out the damage like nobody's business) and a monk (high touch AC).

better yet, a monk with the spell reflection alternative class ability from complete mage http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a

there are also quite a few monsters that will render a warlock nearly helpless even at high levels, such as clay golems and black dragons just off the top of my head. Anything with decent fast healing can also render the warlocks damage a moot point as well.
razorboy
10-16-06, 10:30 AM Warlock's blast invocations are definitely not overpowered, I have a Warlock player in my game and she does damage slightly below the party's fighter and archer, but she has other cool abilities as well. Besides, she can only do that as a standard action, while an archer or fighter get multiple attacks per round which can potential do more damage.

What is overpowered I find, is the ability to cast Evard's Black tentacles at will. But then again, that whole spell is brutal IMO.
trapspringer
10-16-06, 04:09 PM Just compare the warlock's average damage output (figuring in hit pecentage and everthing) to an appropriately constructed chaingun archer. They are about on par.
MSW
10-16-06, 04:33 PM If you can't get your DM to accept the Warlock without modification (it's not over powered), and it's the unlimited Eldritch blash is what he's balking at, I'd suggest this:

Make it stick to 2d6 damage (Greatsword without STR bonus).
And then convert the additional D6s to sneak attack damage. And warlock sneak attack damage stacks with everything evles (Rogue, prc classes etc.) for total dice.

That way you can still get your full effect if you catch the target flat footed (or you are invisible...) and within 30feet. But you can still fire all day long like the class is meant to.

BUT SERIOUSLY try to talk him into using the Warlock as is. Point out that his blast only does 1/2 damage to objects, and he's limited to one blast per round (high BaB doesn't give him multiple swings like a Barbarian at 8th level with power attack and that 2d6 sword (3d6 with monkey grip...).

The blast can be interupted like a spell. It has to overcome SR (and the errata makes the straight blast always a level 1 spell unmodified...)
Toloran
10-16-06, 09:05 PM The blast can be interupted like a spell. It has to overcome SR (and the errata makes the straight blast always a level 1 spell unmodified...)

Why was it errata'ed like that? In the book it said the spell equivalent level was equal half your level rounded down (to a maximum of 9 and a minimum of 1) or the highest enhancement invocation (effect or shape) used in conjunction with it (whichever is higher).
Tempest Stormwind
10-17-06, 12:10 AM Why was it errata'ed like that? In the book it said the spell equivalent level was equal half your level rounded down (to a maximum of 9 and a minimum of 1) or the highest enhancement invocation (effect or shape) used in conjunction with it (whichever is higher).
So it could be used with effects like Quicken Spell-Like Ability and related feats in the back of the Monster Manual. It also makes Concentration DCs easier to manage. Finally, it's simpler and easier to understand. Together, this is the mark of a GOOD change, in my opinion.

It's always level 1, unless you use a shape or essence on it, and then it behaves normally (i.e. as the highest level of the invocations used during the blast).

The only time when a high spell level is essential is when dealing with things like Globe of Invulnerability or Spell Turning -- and he has the option of using a shape or essence there. There's really no other benefit to a higher effective spell level.
ressurrector
10-17-06, 12:14 AM Why was it errata'ed like that? In the book it said the spell equivalent level was equal half your level rounded down (to a maximum of 9 and a minimum of 1) or the highest enhancement invocation (effect or shape) used in conjunction with it (whichever is higher).
I think that was so it could be used with certain feats that work for spell-like abilities, and have an upper cap for the effective CL of the SLA they can be for (like 1/2 char level-2 or such)
Meshakhad
10-22-06, 11:31 PM Point out to him that warlocks have very few options for customization. Several levels later, all your fellow PCs will be taking prestige classes and being all powerful, while you will probably still be a pure warlock.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
the_fenris_wolf 10-15-06, 08:41 PM	My dm seriously thinks that the wrlock is way overpowered, i disagree but he thinks that the unlimeted blasts thing is unbalanced, as a level 8 warlock (which i am going to be) is able to dish out 5d6 damage all day long. My dm will only allow the Warlock if i tone it down. I really would like to keep the unlimited blasts thing as it is one of the coolest things of the warlock, so i was wondering what things u think i should dumb down. One of my ideas is to give the blast a max range of 30', essentially getting rid of the eldritch spear. Any other ideas. Cheers:D Fenris
Tempest Stormwind 10-15-06, 08:54 PM	Send your DM to the boards. Virtually any board can prove to him that the warlock isn't overpowered. For a real wake-up, send him to the CO board library. I won't pay for his medical expenses afterward, though. See also the RadicalTaoist quote in my sig.
Tiefling_Warlock 10-15-06, 09:12 PM	Show him how much a properly made anything else can do, especially wizard. This should show him that ulimited times per day isn't that good. Also explain that the Warlock was made for 4 fights a day.
a_psh 10-15-06, 09:41 PM	Build an archer of the same level and show him the character sheet to prove that the eldritch blast really isn't a big deal.
Toloran 10-15-06, 10:53 PM	The problem is that you are right at the levels where the warlock is their strongest. At that point they get fly AND invisibility for 24 hours a day. From that point on (however) other classes will begin to out pace them until they become little more then weak archers.
kelvinaw273 10-15-06, 11:06 PM	5d6 is not broken at 8th level, especially as you need to hit it. Yes, it racks up as attrition damage, but that's it. Any magic-using class could hit you for at least once or twice for 8d6 at that level. The two best counters to a warlock are a Psion prepared to nova (he can dish out the damage like nobody's business) and a monk (high touch AC).
Generic Poster 10-16-06, 01:04 AM	5d6 is not broken at 8th level, especially as you need to hit it. Yes, it racks up as attrition damage, but that's it. Any magic-using class could hit you for at least once or twice for 8d6 at that level. The two best counters to a warlock are a Psion prepared to nova (he can dish out the damage like nobody's business) and a monk (high touch AC). better yet, a monk with the spell reflection alternative class ability from complete mage http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a there are also quite a few monsters that will render a warlock nearly helpless even at high levels, such as clay golems and black dragons just off the top of my head. Anything with decent fast healing can also render the warlocks damage a moot point as well.
razorboy 10-16-06, 10:30 AM	Warlock's blast invocations are definitely not overpowered, I have a Warlock player in my game and she does damage slightly below the party's fighter and archer, but she has other cool abilities as well. Besides, she can only do that as a standard action, while an archer or fighter get multiple attacks per round which can potential do more damage. What is overpowered I find, is the ability to cast Evard's Black tentacles at will. But then again, that whole spell is brutal IMO.
trapspringer 10-16-06, 04:09 PM	Just compare the warlock's average damage output (figuring in hit pecentage and everthing) to an appropriately constructed chaingun archer. They are about on par.
MSW 10-16-06, 04:33 PM	If you can't get your DM to accept the Warlock without modification (it's not over powered), and it's the unlimited Eldritch blash is what he's balking at, I'd suggest this: Make it stick to 2d6 damage (Greatsword without STR bonus). And then convert the additional D6s to sneak attack damage. And warlock sneak attack damage stacks with everything evles (Rogue, prc classes etc.) for total dice. That way you can still get your full effect if you catch the target flat footed (or you are invisible...) and within 30feet. But you can still fire all day long like the class is meant to. BUT SERIOUSLY try to talk him into using the Warlock as is. Point out that his blast only does 1/2 damage to objects, and he's limited to one blast per round (high BaB doesn't give him multiple swings like a Barbarian at 8th level with power attack and that 2d6 sword (3d6 with monkey grip...). The blast can be interupted like a spell. It has to overcome SR (and the errata makes the straight blast always a level 1 spell unmodified...)
Toloran 10-16-06, 09:05 PM	The blast can be interupted like a spell. It has to overcome SR (and the errata makes the straight blast always a level 1 spell unmodified...) Why was it errata'ed like that? In the book it said the spell equivalent level was equal half your level rounded down (to a maximum of 9 and a minimum of 1) or the highest enhancement invocation (effect or shape) used in conjunction with it (whichever is higher).
Tempest Stormwind 10-17-06, 12:10 AM	Why was it errata'ed like that? In the book it said the spell equivalent level was equal half your level rounded down (to a maximum of 9 and a minimum of 1) or the highest enhancement invocation (effect or shape) used in conjunction with it (whichever is higher). So it could be used with effects like Quicken Spell-Like Ability and related feats in the back of the Monster Manual. It also makes Concentration DCs easier to manage. Finally, it's simpler and easier to understand. Together, this is the mark of a GOOD change, in my opinion. It's always level 1, unless you use a shape or essence on it, and then it behaves normally (i.e. as the highest level of the invocations used during the blast). The only time when a high spell level is essential is when dealing with things like Globe of Invulnerability or Spell Turning -- and he has the option of using a shape or essence there. There's really no other benefit to a higher effective spell level.
ressurrector 10-17-06, 12:14 AM	Why was it errata'ed like that? In the book it said the spell equivalent level was equal half your level rounded down (to a maximum of 9 and a minimum of 1) or the highest enhancement invocation (effect or shape) used in conjunction with it (whichever is higher). I think that was so it could be used with certain feats that work for spell-like abilities, and have an upper cap for the effective CL of the SLA they can be for (like 1/2 char level-2 or such)
Meshakhad 10-22-06, 11:31 PM	Point out to him that warlocks have very few options for customization. Several levels later, all your fellow PCs will be taking prestige classes and being all powerful, while you will probably still be a pure warlock.