Duskblade --> Wizard CL Transfer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Duskblade --> Wizard CL Transfer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Adrian_Crane
12-16-06, 10:53 PM I'm looking at making a Duskblade character and I like planning in the long term just for the hell of it. I like the idea of an arcane/melee hybrid, and the class appeals to me greatly since it doesn't suffer from the weakness of common Fighter/Wiz/etc builds in the early levels.

There's one thing I'm curious about, though. When it comes to the long term, is there any case to be made for transferring partial caster levels from Duskblade to Wizard? Both classes are INT based spellcasters; the first, however, is spontaneous; the second requires preparation. That's the biggest gap that I'm seeing.

Would it be realistic to say that a Duskblade taking levels in Wizard should keep the Wizard's spells per day, but add 1/2 or 1/3 or some fraction of his Duskblade levels to his Wizard levels for CL and highest level spells known? If I want to go hybrid and later focus on the casting, am I simply better off accepting the initial weaknesses of gish builds, or is there some compromise? How common is it to allow character rebuilds at certain thresholds, such as 20?

I definitely understand that a Duskblade/Wiz wouldn't cast as a pure Wizard, but it's also hard to believe that a Duskblade/Wizard would start out from scratch on prepared spells, given that the character already a good deal of knowledge regarding Arcane lore.

The gap I'm seeing is that a Duskblade 20 lacks a lot in terms of epic progression, where a Ftr 2/Wiz 5/PrC build can just go 9th level spells and beyond, sacrificing very little for their melee combat ability. Thoughts? Is there an epic Duskblade setup anywhere that goes on to get higher level casting while advancing melee?
Board_Rider
12-17-06, 10:59 AM The only way that I know of to increase the CL of the Wizard class in this example is through the use of the Practiced Spellcaster feat. As for advancing spells and combat ability there is a PrC (althouth I cannot remember the name, its in one of the Complete... books) that does both.

As far a gish builds...you have it right. There is always some form of compromise. I would recommend that you focus on what you want more be it magic or combat. I would recommend combat (Duskblades do nasty damage) with spells coming second. Why not gish with Warmage, Warblade, Favored Soul or Swordage? Depending on your ability scores you may be doing some serious damage with both spells and melee capability.
Karma
12-17-06, 09:18 PM Personally, I am building a gish that uses Wizard levels, a couple of Fighter levels and Duskblade levels. This is for a game that is about to go epic that my previous character died in... so short of divine intervention, that character is not comming back.

I do have almost free reign to create a particularly brutal character and this is the way I choose to do it. I would recomend the Practiced Spellcaster feat from the Complete Divine to aid in your caster level. I don't have the book handy to break it down for you but you will effectively get a +4 to your caster level should you choose ot multiclass.
StevenO
12-19-06, 07:27 PM The Practiced Spellcaster (class) adds +4 to your caster level (up to your HD) for all level based effects. It does not grant you additonal spells or spell levels.

If you want to be a fighting spellcaster you have two basic ways to progress: concentrate on either fighting or spellcasting.

With a concentration on fighting you go straight Duskblade or Duskblade with a combat casting PrC. This build should have BAB and HP but will lack a high maximum spell level.

With a concentration on spellcasting you probably want to avoid Duskblade for the most part and concentrate on a class granting 9th level spells. One of the most cited builds is Ftr1/Wiz6/Spellsword3/Eldritch Knight10; this gives you a +17 BAB and caster level 17 before practiced spellcaster.
Bladesinger Boy
12-19-06, 08:56 PM I personally have a real problem with independent spell columns, like the one the DuskBlade or many other PrCs have. I think Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and Sorceor should the only spell column and any other spellcasting class just a partial spell advancement of these. They can weird combinations of arcane and divine spells sometime, they let you in effect get "double" the amount of bonus spell you would normally get if used with other columns, and at high levels or into epic they don't progress and seems to totally fall apart as basically ineffective spell columns.

To this end, I often try to persuade DM's to allow so many levels of spell advancement instead of indy spell columns. Things with full BAB should not get much spell cast and so I normally figure it to be a little less than the levels of spell advancement it would take to get that same height of spell levels. For example, we know it takes nine levels of spell advancement for a Wizard to reach casting 5th level spell, so I would say nine or ten (the two wizard level with 5ths as the highest spell level castable) is the absolute maximum. But, for balance, probably a bit less.

I would say, for the Duskblade, +1 level Wizard spell advancement at 1st level and then every 3 levels thereafter (4, 7, 10, 13, etc). This means, by level 20, the Duskblade would have 7 levels of Wizard spell advancement thus granting him 4th level spells. Is that about what you're looking for?
Daergal_the_Black
12-19-06, 09:12 PM I'd say that there is no case to be made for it under the RAW (Practiced Spellcaster excepted). That one is class is a Vancian caster and one non-Vancian isn't really the issue, even if both classes were Vancian arcane casters there's no reasdon to believe that caster levels would stack any more than Duskblad caster levels stack with Sorcerer (both non-Vancian spontaneous, spell-slot using casters).

But that I'm not sure it would raise terrible balance problems, if handled correctly. If you balance everything against the cleric, then I doubt that a reasonable tranfer rate between wizard and Duskblade would put the player above that mark.

Personally, I'd ask the player who wanted it to prepare essentially a Prestige Class proposal for something like this (a PrC designed to hybridize the Duskblade and Wizard). Then I could look at it and negitate class features with the player until we had a class description we both liked.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adrian_Crane 12-16-06, 10:53 PM	I'm looking at making a Duskblade character and I like planning in the long term just for the hell of it. I like the idea of an arcane/melee hybrid, and the class appeals to me greatly since it doesn't suffer from the weakness of common Fighter/Wiz/etc builds in the early levels. There's one thing I'm curious about, though. When it comes to the long term, is there any case to be made for transferring partial caster levels from Duskblade to Wizard? Both classes are INT based spellcasters; the first, however, is spontaneous; the second requires preparation. That's the biggest gap that I'm seeing. Would it be realistic to say that a Duskblade taking levels in Wizard should keep the Wizard's spells per day, but add 1/2 or 1/3 or some fraction of his Duskblade levels to his Wizard levels for CL and highest level spells known? If I want to go hybrid and later focus on the casting, am I simply better off accepting the initial weaknesses of gish builds, or is there some compromise? How common is it to allow character rebuilds at certain thresholds, such as 20? I definitely understand that a Duskblade/Wiz wouldn't cast as a pure Wizard, but it's also hard to believe that a Duskblade/Wizard would start out from scratch on prepared spells, given that the character already a good deal of knowledge regarding Arcane lore. The gap I'm seeing is that a Duskblade 20 lacks a lot in terms of epic progression, where a Ftr 2/Wiz 5/PrC build can just go 9th level spells and beyond, sacrificing very little for their melee combat ability. Thoughts? Is there an epic Duskblade setup anywhere that goes on to get higher level casting while advancing melee?
Board_Rider 12-17-06, 10:59 AM	The only way that I know of to increase the CL of the Wizard class in this example is through the use of the Practiced Spellcaster feat. As for advancing spells and combat ability there is a PrC (althouth I cannot remember the name, its in one of the Complete... books) that does both. As far a gish builds...you have it right. There is always some form of compromise. I would recommend that you focus on what you want more be it magic or combat. I would recommend combat (Duskblades do nasty damage) with spells coming second. Why not gish with Warmage, Warblade, Favored Soul or Swordage? Depending on your ability scores you may be doing some serious damage with both spells and melee capability.
Karma 12-17-06, 09:18 PM	Personally, I am building a gish that uses Wizard levels, a couple of Fighter levels and Duskblade levels. This is for a game that is about to go epic that my previous character died in... so short of divine intervention, that character is not comming back. I do have almost free reign to create a particularly brutal character and this is the way I choose to do it. I would recomend the Practiced Spellcaster feat from the Complete Divine to aid in your caster level. I don't have the book handy to break it down for you but you will effectively get a +4 to your caster level should you choose ot multiclass.
StevenO 12-19-06, 07:27 PM	The Practiced Spellcaster (class) adds +4 to your caster level (up to your HD) for all level based effects. It does not grant you additonal spells or spell levels. If you want to be a fighting spellcaster you have two basic ways to progress: concentrate on either fighting or spellcasting. With a concentration on fighting you go straight Duskblade or Duskblade with a combat casting PrC. This build should have BAB and HP but will lack a high maximum spell level. With a concentration on spellcasting you probably want to avoid Duskblade for the most part and concentrate on a class granting 9th level spells. One of the most cited builds is Ftr1/Wiz6/Spellsword3/Eldritch Knight10; this gives you a +17 BAB and caster level 17 before practiced spellcaster.
Bladesinger Boy 12-19-06, 08:56 PM	I personally have a real problem with independent spell columns, like the one the DuskBlade or many other PrCs have. I think Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and Sorceor should the only spell column and any other spellcasting class just a partial spell advancement of these. They can weird combinations of arcane and divine spells sometime, they let you in effect get "double" the amount of bonus spell you would normally get if used with other columns, and at high levels or into epic they don't progress and seems to totally fall apart as basically ineffective spell columns. To this end, I often try to persuade DM's to allow so many levels of spell advancement instead of indy spell columns. Things with full BAB should not get much spell cast and so I normally figure it to be a little less than the levels of spell advancement it would take to get that same height of spell levels. For example, we know it takes nine levels of spell advancement for a Wizard to reach casting 5th level spell, so I would say nine or ten (the two wizard level with 5ths as the highest spell level castable) is the absolute maximum. But, for balance, probably a bit less. I would say, for the Duskblade, +1 level Wizard spell advancement at 1st level and then every 3 levels thereafter (4, 7, 10, 13, etc). This means, by level 20, the Duskblade would have 7 levels of Wizard spell advancement thus granting him 4th level spells. Is that about what you're looking for?
Daergal_the_Black 12-19-06, 09:12 PM	I'd say that there is no case to be made for it under the RAW (Practiced Spellcaster excepted). That one is class is a Vancian caster and one non-Vancian isn't really the issue, even if both classes were Vancian arcane casters there's no reasdon to believe that caster levels would stack any more than Duskblad caster levels stack with Sorcerer (both non-Vancian spontaneous, spell-slot using casters). But that I'm not sure it would raise terrible balance problems, if handled correctly. If you balance everything against the cleric, then I doubt that a reasonable tranfer rate between wizard and Duskblade would put the player above that mark. Personally, I'd ask the player who wanted it to prepare essentially a Prestige Class proposal for something like this (a PrC designed to hybridize the Duskblade and Wizard). Then I could look at it and negitate class features with the player until we had a class description we both liked.