Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Narthon 01-06-07, 02:17 PM	So, a new campaign will be starting soon, the DM intends for it to run from level 1-20. I havn't done a rogue in 3.5 yet so thought I would give it a try. His role will be the trap finder, device disabler, and probably backup meele damage dealer. I don't really want to go into the feat sink that 2 weapon fighting is, but spring attack seems out with a dwarf's reduced movement rate. Could anyone suggest a good dwarfy build? I want to stick to core and the four original complete books as much as possible, and want to go rogue 19 to get the full effect of rogue. Thank you
claypigeons 01-06-07, 03:28 PM	... I don't really want to go into the feat sink that 2 weapon fighting is... ...and want to go rogue 19 to get the full effect of rogue. ... Two-weapon fighting is what makes sneak attack great. If you want 19 levels of rogue, there isnt much else to do. Just take a single level of fighter for the feat and BAB. That leaves you with a BAB of 15 still... and one extra feat. I would actually do rogue16/fighter4... unless you actually want to PrC out. This would leave you with 8d6 sneak attack and BAB 16 (4th iterative attack). Snazzy.
M.E. Charm 01-06-07, 03:42 PM	Well it really depends on what kind of campaign your DM is running. If its all hack/slash, then yes, youre very limited. If you also get the chance to roleplay and think, think of all the great things Dwarves have to offer besides being tough--and combine this with the large array of skills Rogues get. Appraise and Craft come to my mind at first, and Knowledge: Architecture and/or Dungeoneering might be very helpful. Then, eventhough he has a Cha penalty, he might be a good smoothtalker and manipulator; social skills ahoy! Choose feats to match, and you got a sneaky bastard who makes the best of his Dwarven heritage. If that fails; Improved Trip is fun when its hard to get tripped yourself. :P EDIT: And if you go for that, the spiked chain's 10ft reach would be great to save your pathetic HP.
Narthon 01-06-07, 04:26 PM	I would actually do rogue16/fighter4... unless you actually want to PrC out. This would leave you with 8d6 sneak attack and BAB 16 (4th iterative attack). Snazzy. That might not be a bad idea. Whenever he seems to be falling behind in combat, sprinkle in a fighter level. I've been meaning to try spiked chain for a bit, I may go with it. Standard for this DM is 32 point buy. Stat wise I'm thinking Str 10, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12. The high con helps make up for the bad hit dice. I know a str of 10 doesn't go well with spiked chain, but most of the damage will be from sneak attack anyway. I'll max out use magic device as a backup for many situations.
CaoSlayer 01-06-07, 06:03 PM	For a very diferent kind of rogue you can try the "smart fighter". fighter 4/rogue 16 Wear medium amor and avoid dex based skills. If you take the improved toughness thanks to your racial bonus you will have the same average hp than a pure fighter (d6 +2 hp level = 1d10). With 16 dex and a mithril full plate you will have 21 AC without magical help. For a weapon, get use of the dwarven waraxe, with the feat oversize two weapon fighting you can use two dwarven waraxes you you will go from d6 to d10 damage. So you will get a very skilled fighter, able to disarm traps, open locks and bluff a little while having a good hp, 8d6 sneak attack, good AC and 16 bab.
claypigeons 01-06-07, 06:43 PM	With 16 dex and a mithril full plate you will have 21 AC without magical help. A rogue should not wear anything above light armour. You lose evasion. Evasion is nice.
Merestil Haye 01-06-07, 06:44 PM	My suggestion is Rogue 16 / Barbarian 4. Why? Barbarian movement bonus offsets the reduced Dwarf speed, while the four levels of full BAB gain you the extra iterative attack. Additionally, both classes get Uncanny Dodge, so whichever class you pick you will get Improved UD at 8th character level. As a Dwarf, medium and heavy armour do not reduce movement, so aim at getting Mithral Fullplate - max Dex of +3 and ACP of -3. Then amaze your friends with the Great Tumbling Armoured Dwarf. Edit : I forgot Evasion was limited to light armour. Make that Mithral Brestplate.
Whisper_Swiftblade 01-06-07, 08:48 PM	you could be a ranged type rogue, I would even consider going into master thrower later on. and let's just face it, throwing stuff is fun.
Firestar27 01-06-07, 10:11 PM	and let's just face it, throwing stuff is fun. Especially hand grenades.
CaoSlayer 01-07-07, 04:02 AM	My suggestion is Rogue 16 / Barbarian 4. Why? You will get a 20% exp penalty since neither rogue or barbarian are favored classes. ---- Yes, you will lose evasion on medium or higher levels but since you have a good hp and very good reflex saves (good dex + good save on rogue + 2 racial agaisnt spell) you actually have more chances to survive a fireball than a fighter/barbarian/bard/wizard/sorcerer/paladin/cleric/druid so isnt that a huge loss. Really if he wants to be a melee rogue, he needs the armor the most thing since the principal cause of death of a rogue it is because he is the most dangerous and easily killed frontliner so when facing agaisnt something like a gigant you need the most armor posible.
claypigeons 01-07-07, 05:09 AM	Yes, you will lose evasion on medium or higher levels but since you have a good hp and very good reflex saves (good dex + good save on rogue + 2 racial agaisnt spell) you actually have more chances to survive a fireball than a fighter/barbarian/bard/wizard/sorcerer/paladin/cleric/druid so isnt that a huge loss. Really if he wants to be a melee rogue, he needs the armor the most thing since the principal cause of death of a rogue it is because he is the most dangerous and easily killed frontliner so when facing agaisnt something like a gigant you need the most armor posible. Hmm... should I boost up my HP and reflex save high enough to save for half damage... or should I wear light armour and use evasion to take zero damage? This is a difficult choice. What any twf rogue does is boost dex to insane levels. This does two things. First, it raises your AC a nice amount. Secondly, it raises your initiative high enough to actually make use of the now nice AC. Really, if given the choice, I'd rather NOT get hit in the face by the ogre than live through his hit. The same goes for spells. Spells are meaner.
Narthon 01-07-07, 08:54 AM	Yes, thanks for the idea, but this rogue will not be wearing heavy armor, no matter what the secondary class is. The dex should become high enough that it won't matter. Dex will start at 16, all points will go into it and dex items will be high priority. I see Fighter as a much better option than Barbarian for this character, I don't want rage and would rather have the feats. I'm still leaning towards spiked chain, I may make a tripper/counter attacker for combat. I should look at exotic weapon master again though, maybe I'll go into that eventually. I will have to see what the party needs when that time comes.
CaoSlayer 01-07-07, 12:44 PM	Hmm... should I boost up my HP and reflex save high enough to save for half damage... or should I wear light armour and use evasion to take zero damage? This is a difficult choice. What any twf rogue does is boost dex to insane levels. This does two things. First, it raises your AC a nice amount. Secondly, it raises your initiative high enough to actually make use of the now nice AC. Really, if given the choice, I'd rather NOT get hit in the face by the ogre than live through his hit. The same goes for spells. Spells are meaner. No, since having a high AC with heavier armor is easier and cheaper so you will be less likely to be hit. Seriously the greater two weapon fighting is an useless feat anyway because that extra attack will have a very hard time to struck something, so you only need 17 dex amount of dex very suitable for a mithril full plate. With just a movement of 20 spring attack and hit and run tactics become useless because a large creature can reach you without troubles so you will be in melee range of everything and is a thing you wants to because you need it for twf, so the highest AC posible the better. And seriously I dont know what can do a light armor rogue to match a medium armor rogue using a mithril plate +5 and a light shield +5 (improved shield bash tree). umm, ever in light armor using a light shield TWF route would be nice unless you want to die soon.
claypigeons 01-07-07, 03:50 PM	No, since having a high AC with heavier armor is easier and cheaper so you will be less likely to be hit. Seriously the greater two weapon fighting is an useless feat anyway because that extra attack will have a very hard time to struck something, so you only need 17 dex amount of dex very suitable for a mithril full plate. With just a movement of 20 spring attack and hit and run tactics become useless because a large creature can reach you without troubles so you will be in melee range of everything and is a thing you wants to because you need it for twf, so the highest AC posible the better. And seriously I dont know what can do a light armor rogue to match a medium armor rogue using a mithril plate +5 and a light shield +5 (improved shield bash tree). umm, ever in light armor using a light shield TWF route would be nice unless you want to die soon. Less likely to be hit in melee combat, maybe. Depending on how liberal the DM is with treasure. High AC, whether from a high dex or from magical armour is still high AC. I'd rather have it from dex...because acting first rocks. A lot. If you act last, you require high AC, because everyone and their mother gets to try to hit you. Also...the point of the twf tree is make use of sneak attack. If you're going to use a shield to do it or another weapon in the offhand, it matters not. It's still twf. Also... dwarves arent skirmishers. I have not suggested using spring attack. I never will for a dwarf. And besides that... Evasion and Improved Evasion are good enough that you should not use greater than light armour. Taking zero damage on a successful save and half on a failed one is great.
hunterc311 01-07-07, 04:29 PM	It's a shame you can't use Complete Scoundrel, it has a nice lot of new goodies for the Rogue. If you can talk your DM into letting you use that book, aim for Swashbuckler 10/Rogue 10, alternating back and forth as you go. Take the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel, so you get full sneak attack progression, full dodge bonus progression and full grace progression. You don't need STR, CHA or WIS, so you can focus primarily on DEX and INT, and CON secondarily for good hitpoints. Use a single light weapon or rapier (so you can benefit from Weapon Finesse at Swashbuckler 1) and light armor, because you will only be a backup melee combatant so you don't need to sink a lot of character development into dealing melee damage. Rogue still gets you goodies like Evasion and Uncanny/Improved Uncanny Dodge, and Swashbuckler 8 gives you Improved Flanking (+4 instead of +2 to hit) which is good since you should be flanking often as a Rogue. Take Rogue first, obviously, to bone up on all your trap/lock/stealth skills, and continue using your Rogue levels for those skills. Use your Swashbuckler levels for acrobatic skills like Balance and Tumble. You should have a little room for creativity as well if you'd like. Finally, you have character feats to do whatever you wish with. There are tons of possibilities here, so I won't go into too much detail with the many different ways you could go with your feats. But this is a very good build if you want to excel as a sneak attacking, skill monkey rogue, but also have above-average combat ability as well.
Narthon 01-07-07, 10:00 PM	That does sound like a good build, but we currently have new product burn-out so are limiting things for this campaign. Like I said, I want to stay fairly simple and fairly core with this character. The second generation complete books are right out for now.
Narthon 01-08-07, 09:24 PM	Ok, I think I will go with the spiked chain tripper build, but am wondering about how to spend the feats. At first level, the feat options seem to be Combat Reflexes and Combat Combat Expertise. Combat Reflexes seems to be the feat of choice, since it is actually usable at 1st level, but I wonder if it will slow down the character becoming really effective in the long run. The way I see it, the five feats needed for the build are: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finess, Exotic Weapon Prof Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. What do you guys think about order of levels, choosing between Rogue and Fighter, and order of feats, in order to keep the character as effective as possible at all levels? Another thing to worry about is the fact that every fighter level retards the growth of the Rogue skills I want. I figure with an int of 14, I'll have to put 2 points each into disable device and search each level to be the trap finder the party needs.
ravenshrike 01-10-07, 06:38 PM	No, since having a high AC with heavier armor is easier and cheaper so you will be less likely to be hit. Seriously the greater two weapon fighting is an useless feat anyway because that extra attack will have a very hard time to struck something, so you only need 17 dex amount of dex very suitable for a mithril full plate. With just a movement of 20 spring attack and hit and run tactics become useless because a large creature can reach you without troubles so you will be in melee range of everything and is a thing you wants to because you need it for twf, so the highest AC posible the better. And seriously I dont know what can do a light armor rogue to match a medium armor rogue using a mithril plate +5 and a light shield +5 (improved shield bash tree). umm, ever in light armor using a light shield TWF route would be nice unless you want to die soon. Since all my rogues now max out spot and take deft strike, any armored opponent becomes rather meaningless. Heh, being able to hit a great wyrm dragon most of the time at level 20 is fuuun. 20 ranks+3 from +1 original WIS and +4 item + 12 from custom spot item means fun with hitting their touch AC of 10 or lower. Adding sayy, quick recconoiter gives another +2 as well as making it a free action. To hit a great wyrm blue dragon you would have to roll a 7, and then beat their touch AC of 6. For 40,000 gold you can do it all of the time.
lint trap 01-10-07, 06:55 PM	I know your group isn't much for non-core, but Unearthed Arcana has a rogue variant here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) that trades sneak attack for fighter bonus feats. Rogue The rogue who favors martial training over stealth and cunning can profit if she chooses her fights carefully. Gain Bonus feats (as fighter). Lose Sneak attack. Basically, it makes rogue builds a lot more diverse.
Narthon 01-10-07, 08:03 PM	Eh, I still want to sneak attack though. Has anyone though about my feat progression with the feats I suggested in my previous post? See any holes in it?
hunterc311 01-13-07, 04:20 PM	It's hard to fit in everything you want early enough to be effective right from the start, but here's a thought over the first several levels: 1 - Rogue 1: Weapon Finesse 2 - Fighter 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) 3 - Fighter 2: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 4 - Fighter 3: nothing 5 - Fighter 4: Combat Reflexes 6 - Rogue 2: Deft Opportunist Explained: Level 1 - You'll have to sacrifice being a melee character to gain loads of skill points at level 1 and stick to being the group skill monkey and occasional sneak attack poker for the first 1000 exp. Use a Weapon Finesse weapon to start like a short sword or rapier and stick to simplicity. Level 2 - Grab your spiked chain and start practicing. You want to negate the penalty to hit using the spiked chain right off the bat, or you'll be very weak at level 2, so you'll have to forgo tripping effectiveness to start out. Level 3 - You can now trip effectively and your attack bonus with the spiked chain is pretty good, but you won't be able to do more than one AoO per round for a while (price to pay to avoid having a crappy attack bonus). Instead, try this tactic (using ideal results): Round 1: Start with a move closer and a readied trip attack. When an opponent comes into your 15 foot range, execute your readied trip attack, trip him to prone (hopefully) and get your automatic attack (from Improved Trip) on his prone behind. He is now prone and 15 feet away from you, but you go after him in initiative order. Round 2: If he stands up on his turn, you get your AoO on him, knock him back down and get another free attack on him. Then take your actual turn next and make another attack on him, still prone and easy to hit. Repeat these this round's course of actions until he is dead. If he doesn't stand up, smack him anyways on your turn while he's still prone, and save your AoO for any other opponents that try to close on you, tripping them and keeping them 15 feet away from you. Your allies should be helping with multiple enemies trying to close on you, since you can only effectively own one enemy at this stage. Level 4 - Continue being patient, almost there... Level 5 - Now you are an AoO machine, with hopefully a DEX +2 enhancement item to your name, putting you at 18 DEX and giving you 5 AoO's with the ability to trip on all of them and hopefully keep anyone you want away from you in melee. Level 6 - From this point on, you're just augmenting your tripping mastery and progressing strictly in Rogue. Deft Opportunist gives +4 to hit on AoO's. Very worthwhile for your style, so I suggest it here, as your goal is to ensure maximum tripping capability. Anything else is up to you, but you're officially on your way to being a lean mean tripping machine. Well, not lean, since you're a dwarf, but definitely mean thanks to that irritable disposition and low Charisma. ;)
Merestil Haye 01-13-07, 07:58 PM	I like the development strategy that hunterc311 gives, but his tactical suggestions for early levels has a significant flaw. Round 1: Start with a move closer and a readied trip attack. When an opponent comes into your 15 foot range, execute your readied trip attack, trip him to prone (hopefully) and get your automatic attack (from Improved Trip) on his prone behind. He is now prone and 15 feet away from you, but you go after him in initiative order.Two things here. Firstly, your reach is never 15'. It's either 10' (if Sm or Med) or 20' (if Large and wielding a Large weapon). Secondly, you go before him in the initiative count from now on. Neither of those are the big problem though. You can always opt to delay your action and wait until he does stand up. Round 2: If he stands up on his turn, you get your AoO on him, knock him back down and get another free attack on him.This is the big problem. The AoO provoked by an enemy standing up from prone is taken while the character is still prone. This means you cannot trip him and therefore will not receive a free attack from Improved Trip. Neither does it stop him from getting up. Once the AoO is taken, he can stand up anyway. Either take the AoO while he's down then use your attack to trip him again, or decline if you want to be able to trip another enemy approaching. Also remember the big weakness of a tripmeister - you cannot win a trip attempt against a monster two or more size categories larger than you. Ever.
Narthon 01-14-07, 10:55 AM	[QUOTE=hunterc311;11171153]I 1 - Rogue 1: Weapon Finesse /QUOTE] See, that is the problem right from the start. Weapon Finesse requires BAB +1. The only two of the first few feats that don't have a prereq are combat expertiese and combat reflexes. I'm thinking 1- Rogue 1: Combat Reflexes - Use a long spear for the reach, get some AOOs 2- Fighter 1: Weapon Finesse - Switch to rapier probably, be able to hit something 3- Fighter 2: EWP, Combat Expertiese - Get the spike chain 4- Fighter 3: Nothing 5- Fighter 4: Improved Trip 6- Rogue 2: Deft Opportunist The problem with this build is it is a lot of levels of not improving rogue skills. I may have to sprinkle in rogue stuff earlier to better serve the party. It will take a bit longer to get to full combat power but may be worth it.
SunTzuWarmaster 01-14-07, 12:26 PM	Merestil Haye is incorrect. Last I checked, Spiked Chain had a 15' Reach. You go first, suugest action was Move, Ready an action. This is in accordance with the rules. Haye states that you cannot trip a prone opponent. Correct. However, you CAN take an AoO on an opponent that tries to get up, and keep him prone (no extra attack, just a prone opponent). Opponent's turn - tripped your turn - attack opponents turn - keep him prone with your new AoO. Standing is a move action, so you can stop him from standing only once (Merestil Haye is correct in this matter, you can't keep him down, but you can keep him from moving).
hunterc311 01-14-07, 02:22 PM	Two things here. Firstly, your reach is never 15'. It's either 10' (if Sm or Med) or 20' (if Large and wielding a Large weapon). Secondly, you go before him in the initiative count from now on. Neither of those are the big problem though. You can always opt to delay your action and wait until he does stand up. Right, sorry, I always somehow get stuck on the spiked chain having 15' reach, but it's clearly 10'. Still, not a big problem overall, so you 5 foot step back every time at the end of your turn and he will always be 15' away. As for going before him, right again, I always get it in my head that because his turn has already started, your readied action puts you right after him, but the rules place you before whomever triggers your readied action. This is the big problem. The AoO provoked by an enemy standing up from prone is taken while the character is still prone. This means you cannot trip him and therefore will not receive a free attack from Improved Trip. It does slow you down a bit, but it doesn't really hinder the strategy. Just change where I say 15' to 10'. He comes within 10', you trip him down and hit him in round 1. Then you 5 foot step back. He stands up and has to either 5' adjust and not get in melee with you, or he has to full move to get to you and you can AoO him and trip him once he tries to go from 10' away to melee. He's stuck on the ground until his next turn, so you smack him down there and then 5 foot adjust away again. You're once again 15' away and he has to stand up and move to you, provoking another AoO that round. Rinse and repeat, still very viable with that one target, and once you get multiple AoO's you can do this with multiple targets who try to close in on you, choosing which one you smack each round before stepping back. Also remember the big weakness of a tripmeister - you cannot win a trip attempt against a monster two or more size categories larger than you. Ever. So let the other party members fight that enemy. You're not going to be able to trip all the time, so just do regular melee attacks. You've still got a great attack bonus with the spiked chain, thanks to your focus on DEX for this build. Being a good tripper means knowing when not to try and trip. ;)
hunterc311 01-14-07, 02:35 PM	The problem with this build is it is a lot of levels of not improving rogue skills. I may have to sprinkle in rogue stuff earlier to better serve the party. It will take a bit longer to get to full combat power but may be worth it. See that's where I disagree. First and foremost, skills are all in the dice. You can have a great bonus and still roll very low. You can have a bad bonus and roll very high. At low levels, you don't need a great bonus because things don't get horribly difficult until later levels. You've got all your Rogue skills with 4 ranks in them at level 1, and you have let's say +3 from DEX and +2 from INT. That is a +7 and +6 bonus at level 1. It doesn't go up from there much for a few levels in my build, but you shouldn't need an extra +2 or +3 because again, it's all in the dice. You're sacrificing a lot of melee effectiveness just to get a small increase in a bonus that is only as good as the random numbers you'll be rolling. In my build, you gain very good combat effectiveness and versatility, while still maintaining pretty acceptable rogue skill bonuses that will suffice just fine for the time being. Once you start rolling on Rogue past level 5, you'll be able to retroactively pump skill points into the skills that you want to bring up to speed with your character level, though it will take a little time. Again, while it's nice to have a big bonus, if all you can do is skill monkey tasks, you'll be less effective than having a strong combat effectiveness as well (there is always more combat than traps and locks in most games).
kelvinaw273 01-14-07, 04:08 PM	That really depends on the campaign. There is no point mapping a build and then finding after a few levels that you need more combat ability and go fighter. Build a level 1 rogue and take it from there ...
claypigeons 01-14-07, 04:46 PM	Rogue1 - TWF Just for the skills. Honestly, (8+intmod) x 4... is there a reason NOT to take this? The BAB can wait. Tons of skills AND a great list of skills far outweighs having weapon finesse at level 1.... at least in my opinion.
Narthon 01-14-07, 08:23 PM	Like I said, I am not going TWF with this rogue. Thank you for the input though.