Easy ways to defeat intelligent opponents [Archive] - Wizards Community

Easy ways to defeat intelligent opponents [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
molten_dragon
12-15-07, 07:56 PM Our gaming party has been blessed for several years now with having a very good GM. However, recently we've been having some problems about the way the game is going. We've been delving into a dungeon to take out a powerful cult leader. The problem is the dungeon is populated almost entirely with very intelligent creatures. They use the terrain against us (and they built the dungeon, so it's usually very advantageous), they retreat before dying so that we have to fight them again later. They make excellent use of potions and scrolls for short term buffs, and just generally do everything in their power to make life difficult for us. We're being rewarded fairly for what we're fighting, and we're making (slow) progress, but the group as a whole is starting to get frustrated because the combats take so long and because we're making such slow progress through the dungeon. We've discussed it with the DM and while he agrees with us, he also doesn't want to change all the monsters in the storyline he created or start playing dumb to make things go quicker (which I see as a valid idea). So my question is, does anyone have any good ideas as to how intelligent creatures can be taken down faster and killed for good before they get a chance to run away. The party is 10th level and consists of a dwarven cleric (me), an elven fire shugenja, a halfling rogue, a human barbarian, and a human swashbuckler. For the most part, the tactic giving the most trouble is demons and devils who can teleport away from battle before being killed and heal up to come back after us shortly thereafter. I try to ready dispel magics to counterspell, but I don't have that many to begin with, and since they are spell like abilities, there are no components to identify the spell by, and I can't tell what they are casting before it's completed, so I have to guess when they are teleporting.
Abyssal_Eye
12-15-07, 08:18 PM Hit the really problematic ones with a Dimensional Anchor, when you expect they may try to flee soon. That way they won't have much time to get rid of the effect (though that doesn't mean that they can't, obviously) before they go down.
This won't solve the problem as such, but it may help to reduce enemy numbers faster.
Other tactics... maybe you could agree on a signal that lets you all attack a single opponent full out for one round. Not very elegant but it might just give enough damage output to permanently erase the chance of that particular enemy fleeing the battle.

Otherwise consider yourself lucky to have intelligent opponents that are not too overpowered. Many DMs (I'll include myself) seem to have problems playing opponents that way and end up either with enemys dumber than the group's half-orc barbarian or with all-knowing masterminds the PCs won't ever beat. Well, that's my opinion at least.
wildernessmaster
12-15-07, 11:26 PM What my DM lets me do as for as your problem for identifing spells is use arcane sight and with a high enough spell craft check when they start to cast you can tell what spell they are about to cast. Just cast arcane stght on your self at the start of the fight and I dont know if you can now in the dungeon, but on an off note look in to getting a wand of dipel magic.
mcnoo
12-16-07, 06:35 PM The only way you're going to beat them is to outsmart them fair and square. Still, there's a few good tactics you can use to try to get the upper hand on us smart arses.

-An illusion or summoned creature is great for finding ambushes. Just make sure your party is never the first to walk into any room.

-Wall spells (wall of ice, wall of iron any any others that lurk in the depths of the strange and exotic books you use) are top notch for keeping the enemy from running away. They're even better for breaking groups of enemies up to thwart their group tactics.

-They're intelligent, this means they can be talked to, or even reasoned with. Even if it just means keeping them distracted for just long enough for your rogue to creep up and jib them in the face.

-Anti magic field beats mages like stone beats scissors. Just be sure to stick to your party's fighter like glue when he rushes the enemy casters.

-Demons and devils are outsiders. All sorts of spells come with 50% extra free against outsiders. Look into them and rejoice.

-Silence spells are always handy. Especially when you're in a dungeon that'll have the enemy mages crammed into a small area.

-Teleporting foes are always a bugger. Not much you can do there but have an obscene amount of dimensional anchors ready, which just isn't efficient. Stick with anti-magic fields.
Kouk
12-16-07, 07:29 PM The way I see it, there are actually two ways to defeat an intelligent adversary -- outsmart them legitimately, or overwhelm them with brute force or speed so that their plan is utterly meaningless. Well, three ways if you count pure luck.

To outsmart them it will help if all the players are on the same page and willing to work together strategically rather than everyone trying to hog spotlight time.

High Ground: If enemies occupy the high ground, think of a way to get your people up there, or think of a way to get get the enemy to want to get down. Simple things like climbing or jumping, or more elaborate like teleportation magic or flight. Just being Invisible can help the climbers get to their destination safely.

To make the high ground "undesirable", you can do things like drop an Area of Effect spell on them, like Stinking Cloud, Wall of Fire, Darkness etc so that they want to move. Even a summoned creature can help, or at least serve to distract them for a round or two. Use different players' strengths in concert, such as the shugenja can make a wall of fire, and the Cleric can Summon something resistant or immune to fire damage. The other characters can do their best to use ranged attacks, or get them some fire resistance and have them go up and attack. Even just standing in front of the spellcasters and giving them Cover is useful (a Tower Shield can be quite handy as well).

Teleporting Enemies: This is a problem that probably every group has. Some things to keep in mind though are if you can incapacitate the creature somehow (Stun, Daze, Nausea, etc.) then they can't use their powers to escape.

Another way is to just obliterate them in a single round, or trick them into feeling like it is safe to fight "just one more round" before they escape. If possible, try to get everyone capable of dealing damage to Delay or Ready actions so that all of you can go before (or after) the enemy. If the group's Initiative is split up around the enemies, they have more time between your group's attacks to act. If you pick a target you can all wait for his action (which presumably will not be to run away immediately), and then have everyone hit him with everything at once before his next turn comes up. If only half of your group attacks before the enemy has a turn, he might just escape before the second half of the party can act, so you want to all go together.

If you know that even if everyone successfully attacks an enemy he simply won't be killed in one round, then lull him into a false sense of security. Have your group split its attention, or seem to do things other than attacking him for a round or two. This way one or two players can do a bit of damage over time and whittle down the opponent's health. If the enemy thinks only two players are focusing on him, he will feel "brave" enough to remain a few more rounds -- because after all those two players can't finish him off quickly. Once you injure him a bit, then every other player suddenly changes direction and you all pour on the attacks on the somewhat injured enemy. Hopefully after taking some initial damage he is now weak enough to drop from a full round of assault by everyone.

Your last option is just big spells like Dimensional Anchor or Dismissal.

Ambushes: Stop falling for them. Use scouting magic, summoned creatures (with flight, scent or darkvision), illusions (as suggested), invisibility, etc. to find out about ambushes before they have a chance to work. Also, if an ambush worked against you, who's to say it won't work against the enemy? Try luring them back to a previous location where the enemy ambushed you and try your own ambush against your pursuers; you don't always have to go straight ahead, you can go backwards to use previously encountered rooms.

Last Resort(?) break their plan: Even if the enemy has a great strategy, the plan will most likely rely on your group acting in a fairly predictable fashion. If archers are attacking you behind a veritable minefield of Caltrops or Spike Stones spells, then they may be expecting you to approach slowly or stay at range to fight them - giving them the advantage to whittle you down over time. Acting in an unpredictable fashion and just charging them may entirely break their plan. You could also simply approach them slowly using Tower Shields for full cover. Don't fall into their pace, keep the fight moving according to what you guys want and not what the enemy wants. This will often entail great risk to the party (you will take damage by charging through the Caltrops, and slow your speed) but it is also risky to allow the enemy plan to work.

Sometimes you can simply overwhelm a plan with brute force that was unexpected -- a dogpile Grapple on the enemy spellcaster for instance, or destroying the ceiling over their heads causing a collapse.

As players you have the advantage because there are more heads on your side than the DM has on his side - it is much easier for you to predict his tactics through experience than it is for him to predict your group's tactics if you change them. Remember, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.
Cold Napalm
12-16-07, 07:48 PM Get your rogue some wands of dim anchor (assumung he has umd).

The main problem I see is that you have a shegunja and 2 melee types in a 10+ level game where you have SMART magic users(i'm including demons using spell like abilities in this group). The term sub optimal comes to mind. That being said...does your non casters have a method of flying? Can you get methods of flying? Actually do you and the shegunja have methods of flying? This helps a lot with terrain issues and no level 8+ game should be lacking a way to get flying. The fact that you lack any arcane casters really hurts in this area.
Illithid Tentacles
12-16-07, 08:03 PM Locate all entrances and exits from the cave system. Block them up physically, and put some magical wards up to prevent anyone and anything from exiting magically. Get a bunch of Decanters of Endless Water and set them all to Geyser, or open up a portal to the plane of water for a few days. Eventually everything will drown, unless it can survive underwater. Set a sphere of Annihilation at the lowest point in the caves, to get rid of most of the water and loot whatever's salvageable.

Just an idea.
Druid_Skara
12-17-07, 11:52 AM Illithid, that just cracks me up.

Most of my ideas tend to get said already. Here are a few tactics I can think of.

You are a cleric. That means you can learn Stone Shape. Try shaping a pit underneath the non-devils/demons and then use Create Water a bunch of times. This will occupy most enemies (make sure you don't fill it up all the way) and you don't have much use for all those orisons, do you?

Dimensional Anchor and Dismissal seem to be the best choice for demons/devils, along with Kouk's brilliant ideas.

Terrain advantages should not pose much of a problem. If they are sniping from high ground, make a wall of fire that forces them to leave. Stone-Shape their cover away or make your own. Give your soft targets tower sheilds to prop up when they need to hide a bit. If you are taking large amounts of ranged fire to the Shugenja or whoever is weakest, give them Entropic Shield. Works great under large amounts, but if it's one or two power-snipers then don't bother a round.

For ambushes, try giving the rogue Sanctuary. Even if he's caught it will give him room to escape and warn you.
Shadowshimmer
12-17-07, 12:59 PM The best way to beat defeat intelligent opponents I have found is by either brute force which it seems like you have tried and they are just making that very difficult by teleporting away or by being more resourceful. How about a spy that pretends to want to join the cult leader? They can feed you intel or heck just assassinate the cult leader if they ever get close enough. There must be some way to infiltrate you way into the inner circle. It is the classic method to beat the intelligent opponents. Grab some gaurds, beat the tar out of them and grab their outfits. It is a start anyway.
Elsydeon
12-20-07, 04:20 AM Well, if you were going to expand on your current tactic a bit (counterspell the teleport) it does have a touch range. If it's one devil teleporting more than one person you could ready your action for when they touch. It doesn't fix the problem, but weeds out other non-touch abilities they might have.

I don't know a thing about Shugenja, but between the two of you there should be a crowd control option that would affect your opponents. Is there? Disabling spells won't necessarily keep them from teleporting, but it would take away most of their power.

Silence is probably your best resource efficient bet, obviously. Teleport is verbal.
kuonji
12-20-07, 06:46 AM You are a cleric. That means you can learn Stone Shape. Try shaping a pit underneath the non-devils/demons and then use Create Water a bunch of times. This will occupy most enemies (make sure you don't fill it up all the way) and you don't have much use for all those orisons, do you?

Just a note on this one, at 10th level, you could shape a 5 foot by 5 foot by 9.5 inch deep pit (total of 20 cubic feet)...not exactly very scary.

Silence is probably your best resource efficient bet, obviously. Teleport is verbal.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

Devil teleport is a spell-like ability.

Advice is great, but at least try to make sure you know what you're talking about first.

Anyway, for teleporting enemies, Dim Anchor is nice. Also remember, the enemy that ports away doesn't (or at least shouldn't) know where your party is when they teleport back; they will have to track you down. However, if you think the enemy will teleport back to the same area it left from to search for your group, set an ambush for when it returns and try to take it down before it can escape again.

Perhaps ask your DM why demons and devils are working together. Also, if you beat the demons/devils once, they might be inclined to just leave till things calm down, rather then risk being banished off the material plane and thus ruin their fun on the mortal realm (again, something to mention to your DM). If the demons/devils are being controlled or compelled to continue to act against your group, you might try cutting a deal with them (they probably want to be free from the control). If your group finds working with evil creatures distasteful, you can always kill them later, they're evil, they deserve it.
Elsydeon
12-20-07, 09:13 PM My bad on SLA's... but honestly, if you want (nearly) perfect advice you should be asking on the Char Op board. Most advice on this forum is going to be ideas thrown out off the top of our heads. Ask how to make a Cleric and/or Shugenja that deals with the teleporting SLA and you'll have plenty of tactics thrown your way.

Correcting mistakes is great, but at least do it nicely instead of being condescending. At least, that's how it came off to me. The touch thing still stands, unless I'm missing something there too.

Exceptions made for people who can't get it through their heads without being flamed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
molten_dragon 12-15-07, 07:56 PM	Our gaming party has been blessed for several years now with having a very good GM. However, recently we've been having some problems about the way the game is going. We've been delving into a dungeon to take out a powerful cult leader. The problem is the dungeon is populated almost entirely with very intelligent creatures. They use the terrain against us (and they built the dungeon, so it's usually very advantageous), they retreat before dying so that we have to fight them again later. They make excellent use of potions and scrolls for short term buffs, and just generally do everything in their power to make life difficult for us. We're being rewarded fairly for what we're fighting, and we're making (slow) progress, but the group as a whole is starting to get frustrated because the combats take so long and because we're making such slow progress through the dungeon. We've discussed it with the DM and while he agrees with us, he also doesn't want to change all the monsters in the storyline he created or start playing dumb to make things go quicker (which I see as a valid idea). So my question is, does anyone have any good ideas as to how intelligent creatures can be taken down faster and killed for good before they get a chance to run away. The party is 10th level and consists of a dwarven cleric (me), an elven fire shugenja, a halfling rogue, a human barbarian, and a human swashbuckler. For the most part, the tactic giving the most trouble is demons and devils who can teleport away from battle before being killed and heal up to come back after us shortly thereafter. I try to ready dispel magics to counterspell, but I don't have that many to begin with, and since they are spell like abilities, there are no components to identify the spell by, and I can't tell what they are casting before it's completed, so I have to guess when they are teleporting.
Abyssal_Eye 12-15-07, 08:18 PM	Hit the really problematic ones with a Dimensional Anchor, when you expect they may try to flee soon. That way they won't have much time to get rid of the effect (though that doesn't mean that they can't, obviously) before they go down. This won't solve the problem as such, but it may help to reduce enemy numbers faster. Other tactics... maybe you could agree on a signal that lets you all attack a single opponent full out for one round. Not very elegant but it might just give enough damage output to permanently erase the chance of that particular enemy fleeing the battle. Otherwise consider yourself lucky to have intelligent opponents that are not too overpowered. Many DMs (I'll include myself) seem to have problems playing opponents that way and end up either with enemys dumber than the group's half-orc barbarian or with all-knowing masterminds the PCs won't ever beat. Well, that's my opinion at least.
wildernessmaster 12-15-07, 11:26 PM	What my DM lets me do as for as your problem for identifing spells is use arcane sight and with a high enough spell craft check when they start to cast you can tell what spell they are about to cast. Just cast arcane stght on your self at the start of the fight and I dont know if you can now in the dungeon, but on an off note look in to getting a wand of dipel magic.
mcnoo 12-16-07, 06:35 PM	The only way you're going to beat them is to outsmart them fair and square. Still, there's a few good tactics you can use to try to get the upper hand on us smart arses. -An illusion or summoned creature is great for finding ambushes. Just make sure your party is never the first to walk into any room. -Wall spells (wall of ice, wall of iron any any others that lurk in the depths of the strange and exotic books you use) are top notch for keeping the enemy from running away. They're even better for breaking groups of enemies up to thwart their group tactics. -They're intelligent, this means they can be talked to, or even reasoned with. Even if it just means keeping them distracted for just long enough for your rogue to creep up and jib them in the face. -Anti magic field beats mages like stone beats scissors. Just be sure to stick to your party's fighter like glue when he rushes the enemy casters. -Demons and devils are outsiders. All sorts of spells come with 50% extra free against outsiders. Look into them and rejoice. -Silence spells are always handy. Especially when you're in a dungeon that'll have the enemy mages crammed into a small area. -Teleporting foes are always a bugger. Not much you can do there but have an obscene amount of dimensional anchors ready, which just isn't efficient. Stick with anti-magic fields.
Kouk 12-16-07, 07:29 PM	The way I see it, there are actually two ways to defeat an intelligent adversary -- outsmart them legitimately, or overwhelm them with brute force or speed so that their plan is utterly meaningless. Well, three ways if you count pure luck. To outsmart them it will help if all the players are on the same page and willing to work together strategically rather than everyone trying to hog spotlight time. High Ground: If enemies occupy the high ground, think of a way to get your people up there, or think of a way to get get the enemy to want to get down. Simple things like climbing or jumping, or more elaborate like teleportation magic or flight. Just being Invisible can help the climbers get to their destination safely. To make the high ground "undesirable", you can do things like drop an Area of Effect spell on them, like Stinking Cloud, Wall of Fire, Darkness etc so that they want to move. Even a summoned creature can help, or at least serve to distract them for a round or two. Use different players' strengths in concert, such as the shugenja can make a wall of fire, and the Cleric can Summon something resistant or immune to fire damage. The other characters can do their best to use ranged attacks, or get them some fire resistance and have them go up and attack. Even just standing in front of the spellcasters and giving them Cover is useful (a Tower Shield can be quite handy as well). Teleporting Enemies: This is a problem that probably every group has. Some things to keep in mind though are if you can incapacitate the creature somehow (Stun, Daze, Nausea, etc.) then they can't use their powers to escape. Another way is to just obliterate them in a single round, or trick them into feeling like it is safe to fight "just one more round" before they escape. If possible, try to get everyone capable of dealing damage to Delay or Ready actions so that all of you can go before (or after) the enemy. If the group's Initiative is split up around the enemies, they have more time between your group's attacks to act. If you pick a target you can all wait for his action (which presumably will not be to run away immediately), and then have everyone hit him with everything at once before his next turn comes up. If only half of your group attacks before the enemy has a turn, he might just escape before the second half of the party can act, so you want to all go together. If you know that even if everyone successfully attacks an enemy he simply won't be killed in one round, then lull him into a false sense of security. Have your group split its attention, or seem to do things other than attacking him for a round or two. This way one or two players can do a bit of damage over time and whittle down the opponent's health. If the enemy thinks only two players are focusing on him, he will feel "brave" enough to remain a few more rounds -- because after all those two players can't finish him off quickly. Once you injure him a bit, then every other player suddenly changes direction and you all pour on the attacks on the somewhat injured enemy. Hopefully after taking some initial damage he is now weak enough to drop from a full round of assault by everyone. Your last option is just big spells like Dimensional Anchor or Dismissal. Ambushes: Stop falling for them. Use scouting magic, summoned creatures (with flight, scent or darkvision), illusions (as suggested), invisibility, etc. to find out about ambushes before they have a chance to work. Also, if an ambush worked against you, who's to say it won't work against the enemy? Try luring them back to a previous location where the enemy ambushed you and try your own ambush against your pursuers; you don't always have to go straight ahead, you can go backwards to use previously encountered rooms. Last Resort(?) break their plan: Even if the enemy has a great strategy, the plan will most likely rely on your group acting in a fairly predictable fashion. If archers are attacking you behind a veritable minefield of Caltrops or Spike Stones spells, then they may be expecting you to approach slowly or stay at range to fight them - giving them the advantage to whittle you down over time. Acting in an unpredictable fashion and just charging them may entirely break their plan. You could also simply approach them slowly using Tower Shields for full cover. Don't fall into their pace, keep the fight moving according to what you guys want and not what the enemy wants. This will often entail great risk to the party (you will take damage by charging through the Caltrops, and slow your speed) but it is also risky to allow the enemy plan to work. Sometimes you can simply overwhelm a plan with brute force that was unexpected -- a dogpile Grapple on the enemy spellcaster for instance, or destroying the ceiling over their heads causing a collapse. As players you have the advantage because there are more heads on your side than the DM has on his side - it is much easier for you to predict his tactics through experience than it is for him to predict your group's tactics if you change them. Remember, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.
Cold Napalm 12-16-07, 07:48 PM	Get your rogue some wands of dim anchor (assumung he has umd). The main problem I see is that you have a shegunja and 2 melee types in a 10+ level game where you have SMART magic users(i'm including demons using spell like abilities in this group). The term sub optimal comes to mind. That being said...does your non casters have a method of flying? Can you get methods of flying? Actually do you and the shegunja have methods of flying? This helps a lot with terrain issues and no level 8+ game should be lacking a way to get flying. The fact that you lack any arcane casters really hurts in this area.
Illithid Tentacles 12-16-07, 08:03 PM	Locate all entrances and exits from the cave system. Block them up physically, and put some magical wards up to prevent anyone and anything from exiting magically. Get a bunch of Decanters of Endless Water and set them all to Geyser, or open up a portal to the plane of water for a few days. Eventually everything will drown, unless it can survive underwater. Set a sphere of Annihilation at the lowest point in the caves, to get rid of most of the water and loot whatever's salvageable. Just an idea.
Druid_Skara 12-17-07, 11:52 AM	Illithid, that just cracks me up. Most of my ideas tend to get said already. Here are a few tactics I can think of. You are a cleric. That means you can learn Stone Shape. Try shaping a pit underneath the non-devils/demons and then use Create Water a bunch of times. This will occupy most enemies (make sure you don't fill it up all the way) and you don't have much use for all those orisons, do you? Dimensional Anchor and Dismissal seem to be the best choice for demons/devils, along with Kouk's brilliant ideas. Terrain advantages should not pose much of a problem. If they are sniping from high ground, make a wall of fire that forces them to leave. Stone-Shape their cover away or make your own. Give your soft targets tower sheilds to prop up when they need to hide a bit. If you are taking large amounts of ranged fire to the Shugenja or whoever is weakest, give them Entropic Shield. Works great under large amounts, but if it's one or two power-snipers then don't bother a round. For ambushes, try giving the rogue Sanctuary. Even if he's caught it will give him room to escape and warn you.
Shadowshimmer 12-17-07, 12:59 PM	The best way to beat defeat intelligent opponents I have found is by either brute force which it seems like you have tried and they are just making that very difficult by teleporting away or by being more resourceful. How about a spy that pretends to want to join the cult leader? They can feed you intel or heck just assassinate the cult leader if they ever get close enough. There must be some way to infiltrate you way into the inner circle. It is the classic method to beat the intelligent opponents. Grab some gaurds, beat the tar out of them and grab their outfits. It is a start anyway.
Elsydeon 12-20-07, 04:20 AM	Well, if you were going to expand on your current tactic a bit (counterspell the teleport) it does have a touch range. If it's one devil teleporting more than one person you could ready your action for when they touch. It doesn't fix the problem, but weeds out other non-touch abilities they might have. I don't know a thing about Shugenja, but between the two of you there should be a crowd control option that would affect your opponents. Is there? Disabling spells won't necessarily keep them from teleporting, but it would take away most of their power. Silence is probably your best resource efficient bet, obviously. Teleport is verbal.
kuonji 12-20-07, 06:46 AM	You are a cleric. That means you can learn Stone Shape. Try shaping a pit underneath the non-devils/demons and then use Create Water a bunch of times. This will occupy most enemies (make sure you don't fill it up all the way) and you don't have much use for all those orisons, do you? Just a note on this one, at 10th level, you could shape a 5 foot by 5 foot by 9.5 inch deep pit (total of 20 cubic feet)...not exactly very scary. Silence is probably your best resource efficient bet, obviously. Teleport is verbal. Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component. Devil teleport is a spell-like ability. Advice is great, but at least try to make sure you know what you're talking about first. Anyway, for teleporting enemies, Dim Anchor is nice. Also remember, the enemy that ports away doesn't (or at least shouldn't) know where your party is when they teleport back; they will have to track you down. However, if you think the enemy will teleport back to the same area it left from to search for your group, set an ambush for when it returns and try to take it down before it can escape again. Perhaps ask your DM why demons and devils are working together. Also, if you beat the demons/devils once, they might be inclined to just leave till things calm down, rather then risk being banished off the material plane and thus ruin their fun on the mortal realm (again, something to mention to your DM). If the demons/devils are being controlled or compelled to continue to act against your group, you might try cutting a deal with them (they probably want to be free from the control). If your group finds working with evil creatures distasteful, you can always kill them later, they're evil, they deserve it.
Elsydeon 12-20-07, 09:13 PM	My bad on SLA's... but honestly, if you want (nearly) perfect advice you should be asking on the Char Op board. Most advice on this forum is going to be ideas thrown out off the top of our heads. Ask how to make a Cleric and/or Shugenja that deals with the teleporting SLA and you'll have plenty of tactics thrown your way. Correcting mistakes is great, but at least do it nicely instead of being condescending. At least, that's how it came off to me. The touch thing still stands, unless I'm missing something there too. Exceptions made for people who can't get it through their heads without being flamed.