ECL 4 and a Succubus [Archive] - Wizards Community

ECL 4 and a Succubus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ShubNiggurath
05-23-06, 11:16 AM Hello everybody

I just wanted to share with you all my game experience and get your feedback.
My group:
Human Monk 1/druid 3 (me) + wolf companion
Human Sorcerer 3
Half Orc Rogue 4
Half Orc Barb 4

We are doing an adventuring module (I don't know which one and I don't want to). Essentially we almost cleared it, when we stumbled on a closed door. Obviously we opened it.

It was the study of a mage and there was a beautiful girl in it, acting as the mage's servant. She said that the mage closed her in this room some years ago and never came back.
Now, my druid has 19 WIS and 18 INT and quickly realized that she couldn't have survived (or at least be healthy and beautiful) in those conditions... she had a bathroom, but... what did she eat? Dried food conserved for many years? Where did she put all that food?

I said that I didn't trust her from the beginning. I asked for a sense motive check, got an high roll, but I didn't get anything out of it (my DM always let us roll, even if there isn't anything, so...). The sorcerer started showing off to get her attention and she kissed him. He lost a level.
He got his knowledge arcana roll and screamed "a succubus!!!". At that point we rolled the initiative and I won it.

I know that we had no hope, but I decided that my character (true neutral), altough scared, wasn't fearful enough to flee before the battle even started and leave his friends to die (the barb and rougue were on the other side of the room and the succubus in the middle, so they had to pass in front of her to rin away). So I summoned an hippogriff and sent my wolf to attack. The barb and rogue got closer and the succubus charmed the sorcerer.

Long story short, my animals couldn't touch her (DR) and she charmed us all one per round (3 rounds). We never got a chance against her DR and SR.

We interrupted the session at that point, considerong that it was already late, but we were all ****** at my DM since that encounter was impossible... her charm DC was immense, DR and SR godly for ECL 4. Also I never got a chance with my sense motive too (my DM told me... and I have +13 in it!).

My DM told me that she was under a geas (or something like that) by the mage, so that she could be freed only by a good character. None of us is good, so she will probably send some of us to fetch one and keep the rest as hostages. Also he said that if we had a cleric he could have saved at least some of us with protection from evil. He said that I could have run away too, if I wanted.

My point is that the encounter is unfair anyway, since no one would have abandoned his friends only suspecting that he cannot win and even before the combat starts. Also, I think that it is not fair to set up an encounter that can be overcame only if in your group there is a certain alignment/class. I understand that this is a module, but he (the DM) should have modified something upon reading it.

What do you guys think? Should we all (the players) do another character to complain against the encounter, even if the DM wants to play it through (and probably save us, even if he shouldn't... she is a devil!!!)? Should we accept is as s*** happens, even if now at the next session, only two of us will play (to bring a good character and save the others)?

(on a side note, what can my character "legally" do, even if he is charmed, to escape? Remember that he knows that she is a succubus (a dangerous devil) and that he didn't trust her from the beginning)
Belfur
05-23-06, 11:42 AM Hi there,
I know the module you are talking about. First of all: charm person, if used in a combat situation/while threatening the victim should get a +5 to your saving throw. A succubus has a charm person with a DC 22. At least your druid (wisdom +4 Base save +4 and +5 for the combat situation that is a +13) should have had a good chance to save (55%). Second, the Sorceror does not lose the level immediately, he receives a negative level, but the level is not lost before 24h have passed (and not after a saving throw is missed).
And you are right, a fight against the Succubus is a very difficult encounter (ECL+3). So you really only had a slim chance to succeed and come out alive.
In the module, as far as I remember, the succubus should not attack the PCs, except the PCs attacked her first. As your DM chose to fight it out, you now have to live with it, maybe it will be quite fun...you should, however, protest, if he makes some of you sit around for a whole gaming session, while only some others try to save you, that is not fun and you should not accept it (if he does, just go and play some video games etc. so that he sees what poor planing he has done).
As far as Charm Person goes: you are just seeing the succubus now as your best friend and will act accordingly. So you will probably fullfill her wish to bring a good aligned character to her.

Just my thoughts on this, but maybe your DM was fully aware of what could happen (things like this should just not happen too often, as it is frustrating when your whole group is pushed around by charm spells) and it works out fine in the end, but it was not really your fault as a player.
ShubNiggurath
05-23-06, 12:12 PM ... for the fast reply.

I didn't know about the +5, but I got something terribly low (like a 3 or 4) on the d20 anyway, so no hope from there.
Also the succubus is keeping me and the sorcerer with her as hostages and sending away the two half orcs to fetch the good guy she needs, that's why I asked what I can do without breaking the rules.

Also they are going to meet during the week so that me and the sorc don't have to stand there looking at them playing.
Morka
05-23-06, 01:49 PM ... for the fast reply.

I didn't know about the +5, but I got something terribly low (like a 3 or 4) on the d20 anyway, so no hope from there.
Also the succubus is keeping me and the sorcerer with her as hostages and sending away the two half orcs to fetch the good guy she needs, that's why I asked what I can do without breaking the rules.

Also they are going to meet during the week so that me and the sorc don't have to stand there looking at them playing.

Did she make an opposed Charisma check to force you and the sorcerer to stay with her?

I know this is an horrible way to railroad players, but give the DM a chance to continue his story. But before going to the next game, ask the DM if he thinks it will take a long time to the two half-orcs to bring back the Good character. Perhaps is he planning to make a good NPC commoner just outside the wizard's office, and it'll take 5 minutes to the 2 half-orcs to bring him back.
ShubNiggurath
05-23-06, 02:35 PM I don't really feel railroaded... it was on the module after all! What I don't like is:

1) the fact that he didn't have the cojones to change the module when he realized that it was geared for good characters and we are not

2) the fact that he justified (1) with me saying that: "I could have run away" and because of that I should not complain for the overwhelming encounter

3) the fact that I SHOULD die and I probably will not, just because the DM wants to correct (1)

Besides (1) I don't really feel railroaded and I don't mind them playing the mini-adventure... they are going to play only 1 session and in a day when I can't play anyway.
Morwen
05-23-06, 03:09 PM The module states the problem pretty clearly in the text, with this quote (don't worry; this isn't a spoiler):

Groups with no good-aligned characters who attack her inside the room may find themselves in a lot of trouble.

Unfortunately, the module gives no advice about how to run or modify the encounter for such groups, which is somewhat odd.

However, as others have said, give your DM a chance :)
kelvinaw273
05-23-06, 03:36 PM I see your point. I would rule if I were DM that she could be freed by a good act rather than a good character, or I would have played her differently, perhaps having her create the illusion of a trap or cage and claiming that only a paladin or some such could free her.

Charm Person has changed a lot: the original charm made you the slave of the person charming you, now it just makes you their friend. Ergo, it will stop you fighting them but will not make you fight your comrades. So you are friendly toward her, this will probably disappear if she level-drains you, and you can make a run for it then.
Zherog
05-23-06, 04:30 PM The module states the problem pretty clearly in the text, with this quote (don't worry; this isn't a spoiler):

Groups with no good-aligned characters who attack her inside the room may find themselves in a lot of trouble.

Unfortunately, the module gives no advice about how to run or modify the encounter for such groups, which is somewhat odd.

However, as others have said, give your DM a chance :)

So what adventure is this? Please put in spoiler text or spoiler box so those who don't want to know can't see it.
Belfur
05-23-06, 05:01 PM The Module is called:

The Forge of Fury
Zherog
05-23-06, 06:15 PM Thanks. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShubNiggurath 05-23-06, 11:16 AM	Hello everybody I just wanted to share with you all my game experience and get your feedback. My group: Human Monk 1/druid 3 (me) + wolf companion Human Sorcerer 3 Half Orc Rogue 4 Half Orc Barb 4 We are doing an adventuring module (I don't know which one and I don't want to). Essentially we almost cleared it, when we stumbled on a closed door. Obviously we opened it. It was the study of a mage and there was a beautiful girl in it, acting as the mage's servant. She said that the mage closed her in this room some years ago and never came back. Now, my druid has 19 WIS and 18 INT and quickly realized that she couldn't have survived (or at least be healthy and beautiful) in those conditions... she had a bathroom, but... what did she eat? Dried food conserved for many years? Where did she put all that food? I said that I didn't trust her from the beginning. I asked for a sense motive check, got an high roll, but I didn't get anything out of it (my DM always let us roll, even if there isn't anything, so...). The sorcerer started showing off to get her attention and she kissed him. He lost a level. He got his knowledge arcana roll and screamed "a succubus!!!". At that point we rolled the initiative and I won it. I know that we had no hope, but I decided that my character (true neutral), altough scared, wasn't fearful enough to flee before the battle even started and leave his friends to die (the barb and rougue were on the other side of the room and the succubus in the middle, so they had to pass in front of her to rin away). So I summoned an hippogriff and sent my wolf to attack. The barb and rogue got closer and the succubus charmed the sorcerer. Long story short, my animals couldn't touch her (DR) and she charmed us all one per round (3 rounds). We never got a chance against her DR and SR. We interrupted the session at that point, considerong that it was already late, but we were all **** at my DM since that encounter was impossible... her charm DC was immense, DR and SR godly for ECL 4. Also I never got a chance with my sense motive too (my DM told me... and I have +13 in it!). My DM told me that she was under a geas (or something like that) by the mage, so that she could be freed only by a good character. None of us is good, so she will probably send some of us to fetch one and keep the rest as hostages. Also he said that if we had a cleric he could have saved at least some of us with protection from evil. He said that I could have run away too, if I wanted. My point is that the encounter is unfair anyway, since no one would have abandoned his friends only suspecting that he cannot win and even before the combat starts. Also, I think that it is not fair to set up an encounter that can be overcame only if in your group there is a certain alignment/class. I understand that this is a module, but he (the DM) should have modified something upon reading it. What do you guys think? Should we all (the players) do another character to complain against the encounter, even if the DM wants to play it through (and probably save us, even if he shouldn't... she is a devil!!!)? Should we accept is as s* happens, even if now at the next session, only two of us will play (to bring a good character and save the others)? (on a side note, what can my character "legally" do, even if he is charmed, to escape? Remember that he knows that she is a succubus (a dangerous devil) and that he didn't trust her from the beginning)
Belfur 05-23-06, 11:42 AM	Hi there, I know the module you are talking about. First of all: charm person, if used in a combat situation/while threatening the victim should get a +5 to your saving throw. A succubus has a charm person with a DC 22. At least your druid (wisdom +4 Base save +4 and +5 for the combat situation that is a +13) should have had a good chance to save (55%). Second, the Sorceror does not lose the level immediately, he receives a negative level, but the level is not lost before 24h have passed (and not after a saving throw is missed). And you are right, a fight against the Succubus is a very difficult encounter (ECL+3). So you really only had a slim chance to succeed and come out alive. In the module, as far as I remember, the succubus should not attack the PCs, except the PCs attacked her first. As your DM chose to fight it out, you now have to live with it, maybe it will be quite fun...you should, however, protest, if he makes some of you sit around for a whole gaming session, while only some others try to save you, that is not fun and you should not accept it (if he does, just go and play some video games etc. so that he sees what poor planing he has done). As far as Charm Person goes: you are just seeing the succubus now as your best friend and will act accordingly. So you will probably fullfill her wish to bring a good aligned character to her. Just my thoughts on this, but maybe your DM was fully aware of what could happen (things like this should just not happen too often, as it is frustrating when your whole group is pushed around by charm spells) and it works out fine in the end, but it was not really your fault as a player.
ShubNiggurath 05-23-06, 12:12 PM	... for the fast reply. I didn't know about the +5, but I got something terribly low (like a 3 or 4) on the d20 anyway, so no hope from there. Also the succubus is keeping me and the sorcerer with her as hostages and sending away the two half orcs to fetch the good guy she needs, that's why I asked what I can do without breaking the rules. Also they are going to meet during the week so that me and the sorc don't have to stand there looking at them playing.
Morka 05-23-06, 01:49 PM	... for the fast reply. I didn't know about the +5, but I got something terribly low (like a 3 or 4) on the d20 anyway, so no hope from there. Also the succubus is keeping me and the sorcerer with her as hostages and sending away the two half orcs to fetch the good guy she needs, that's why I asked what I can do without breaking the rules. Also they are going to meet during the week so that me and the sorc don't have to stand there looking at them playing. Did she make an opposed Charisma check to force you and the sorcerer to stay with her? I know this is an horrible way to railroad players, but give the DM a chance to continue his story. But before going to the next game, ask the DM if he thinks it will take a long time to the two half-orcs to bring back the Good character. Perhaps is he planning to make a good NPC commoner just outside the wizard's office, and it'll take 5 minutes to the 2 half-orcs to bring him back.
ShubNiggurath 05-23-06, 02:35 PM	I don't really feel railroaded... it was on the module after all! What I don't like is: 1) the fact that he didn't have the cojones to change the module when he realized that it was geared for good characters and we are not 2) the fact that he justified (1) with me saying that: "I could have run away" and because of that I should not complain for the overwhelming encounter 3) the fact that I SHOULD die and I probably will not, just because the DM wants to correct (1) Besides (1) I don't really feel railroaded and I don't mind them playing the mini-adventure... they are going to play only 1 session and in a day when I can't play anyway.
Morwen 05-23-06, 03:09 PM	The module states the problem pretty clearly in the text, with this quote (don't worry; this isn't a spoiler): Groups with no good-aligned characters who attack her inside the room may find themselves in a lot of trouble. Unfortunately, the module gives no advice about how to run or modify the encounter for such groups, which is somewhat odd. However, as others have said, give your DM a chance :)
kelvinaw273 05-23-06, 03:36 PM	I see your point. I would rule if I were DM that she could be freed by a good act rather than a good character, or I would have played her differently, perhaps having her create the illusion of a trap or cage and claiming that only a paladin or some such could free her. Charm Person has changed a lot: the original charm made you the slave of the person charming you, now it just makes you their friend. Ergo, it will stop you fighting them but will not make you fight your comrades. So you are friendly toward her, this will probably disappear if she level-drains you, and you can make a run for it then.
Zherog 05-23-06, 04:30 PM	The module states the problem pretty clearly in the text, with this quote (don't worry; this isn't a spoiler): Groups with no good-aligned characters who attack her inside the room may find themselves in a lot of trouble. Unfortunately, the module gives no advice about how to run or modify the encounter for such groups, which is somewhat odd. However, as others have said, give your DM a chance :) So what adventure is this? Please put in spoiler text or spoiler box so those who don't want to know can't see it.
Belfur 05-23-06, 05:01 PM	The Module is called: The Forge of Fury
Zherog 05-23-06, 06:15 PM	Thanks. :)