ECL and best class for a Puppeteer [Archive] - Wizards Community

ECL and best class for a Puppeteer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tavenknaughtlin
10-22-07, 06:19 AM My friend has said that for his upcoming campaign any race is ok as long as it's smart enough to be an adventurer. After reading through the Expanded Psionics Handbook the Puppeteer caught my eye, and looks like it would be an interesting character to try. But of course, being a miniscule limbless worm it has no ECL. I don't see why not, as any of the requirements for a PC race given in books like Savage Species (such as hands and the ability to manipulate your environment) can be easily obtained via it's Enthrall ability.

Is there an ECL for it somewhere or can someone give me a rough estimate? I'm terrible at game balance, so I don't want to make a too-weak or too-strong character.

Plus I was wondering the best class for a Puppeteer. I'm thinking a non-physical class like Psion, as the Puppeteer already has some innate psionic abilities.
Cartigan
10-22-07, 12:15 PM I would think once joined it takes up the ECL of its host, though the fact that the puppeteer retains certain psionic abilities might affect that.
Tavenknaughtlin
10-22-07, 08:31 PM Well i'm going to be adding character classes to the Puppeteer, so i need to know the Puppeteer's ECL before i can determine how many levels it can have.

And the Host is essentially a Dominated minion, so ECL wouldn't really stem from them. I'm riding on him, but he isn't actually me. And I plan to be jumping from Host to Host quite a bit, so re-calculating ECL each time would get very monotonous (sp?).
Cartigan
10-22-07, 09:09 PM Well considering the puppeteer is a little worm thing and it relies on the abilities of the host, I don't see how you are going to turn this into a PC with class levels anyway - it can only use classes that its current host can use.
Tavenknaughtlin
10-22-07, 09:45 PM I think your confused about how a Puppeteer takes control of a 'Host'. It isn't a parasite that become a part of it's host, it simply rides on it and uses it's body to do it's wishes. Here's an example:

Level 6 Wizard thinks he's the BBEG and tries to take us down. My puppeteer would Charm him (assuming he fails his will save). I am placed on his neck, and now he is Dominated (as per the spell, but with no time limit as long as I am on his body and it can't be broken unless i'm removed). I am not actually a part of him, simply riding on my Mind-controlled minion's back. This means I can still use my Psionic powers, and now we have a level 6 Wizard 'cohort' following us around. He doesn't use my powers, he uses his own powers, and I don't need to use him to manifest my Psionic abilities (he can't anyways, since I don't transfer my powers to him). We are technically two seperate entities, with the exception that I'm drawing neutrients from him and controlling him like a Puppet.

Think of it as having the Leadership feat, but your riding on your cohort, and the cohort will do anything you tell it to. So if i was a Puppeteer Wizard, i can't use my minion to cast my spells (i'd need some feats to cast it without verbal or somatic components just to cast spells). That's why I'm opting for Psion; you don't even need limbs to Manifest :D .

Edit: Hmm, in retrospect, this probably should have gone in the Races or Monster forums. Woops :embarrass
Cartigan
10-22-07, 11:10 PM But the Puppeteer really has nothing but a handful of psionic abilities.
Tavenknaughtlin
10-23-07, 12:15 AM Well that's why I want to put class levels into it, lol :D . It also has some nice stat bonuses for a caster, not too mention it's Enthrall ability (although that's somewhat limited, since the target has to fail a Will save vs. your Charm ability AND touch you, and it ends when you leave the 'host').

I ran it through an ECL calculator and came up with +2.4 ECL, but then read the given ECL by the creator of the ECL calculator and he put it as +6! So either I messed up with it (very likely), or this worm is equivalent in power to an Ogre!

To me a 3 or 4 sounds about right, but then again, like I said, I'm not very good at game balancing.
wonlee76
10-23-07, 10:29 AM I ran it through an ECL calculator and came up with +2.4 ECL, but then read the given ECL by the creator of the ECL calculator and he put it as +6! So either I messed up with it (very likely), or this worm is equivalent in power to an Ogre!

To me a 3 or 4 sounds about right, but then again, like I said, I'm not very good at game balancing.

If the author of an ECL calculator pegs it at +6 but when you ran it through the ECL calculator and came up with +2.4, my guess is you made certain abilities "less" valuable than what the author of the ECl calculator pegged it at.

I say go with the author's calculation or at least e-mail him for explanation as to how he came up with +6 so that you might be able to determine if he made a mistake.
Lincoln Hills
10-23-07, 05:15 PM The Puppeteer's ECL might actually vary a little based on the campaign. If almost nobody in the world knows that your species exists, a higher ECL is justified - because even if an enemy sees you, he won't necessarily consider you important - just a leech stuck to the guy he's fighting, big deal. Whereas if puppeteers are known and dreaded, anybody that sees you (even if they weren't your enemy while speaking to your host|) will probably try to kill you on sight. (That's a lower ECL.)

As for class selections? Arcane and divine magic are out for you - verbal components aren't viable, and materials and foci are impossible for you to manipulate directly. Melee combat classes are out. Aside from psion or wilder, the only class I can see a tiny slug-like being excelling in is rogue. However, I'm not familiar with the numerous new base classes that 3.5 has made available: would a puppeteer make a viable Scout? Marshal?
Cartigan
10-23-07, 06:37 PM The Puppeteer's ECL might actually vary a little based on the campaign. If almost nobody in the world knows that your species exists, a higher ECL is justified - because even if an enemy sees you, he won't necessarily consider you important - just a leech stuck to the guy he's fighting, big deal. Whereas if puppeteers are known and dreaded, anybody that sees you (even if they weren't your enemy while speaking to your host|) will probably try to kill you on sight. (That's a lower ECL.)
But the Puppeteer will be hiding out of sight. The foe would have to know the Puppeteer is there and where he is. It will be hiding in hair, fur, or under clothes, not stuck to his forehead.

However, I'm not familiar with the numerous new base classes that 3.5 has made available: would a puppeteer make a viable Scout? Marshal?
I doubt a puppeteer could viably take class levels. Well it could, but it would only be usable on the host, but the Puppeteers crazy psionic powers crank up its ECL even without a class.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tavenknaughtlin 10-22-07, 06:19 AM	My friend has said that for his upcoming campaign any race is ok as long as it's smart enough to be an adventurer. After reading through the Expanded Psionics Handbook the Puppeteer caught my eye, and looks like it would be an interesting character to try. But of course, being a miniscule limbless worm it has no ECL. I don't see why not, as any of the requirements for a PC race given in books like Savage Species (such as hands and the ability to manipulate your environment) can be easily obtained via it's Enthrall ability. Is there an ECL for it somewhere or can someone give me a rough estimate? I'm terrible at game balance, so I don't want to make a too-weak or too-strong character. Plus I was wondering the best class for a Puppeteer. I'm thinking a non-physical class like Psion, as the Puppeteer already has some innate psionic abilities.
Cartigan 10-22-07, 12:15 PM	I would think once joined it takes up the ECL of its host, though the fact that the puppeteer retains certain psionic abilities might affect that.
Tavenknaughtlin 10-22-07, 08:31 PM	Well i'm going to be adding character classes to the Puppeteer, so i need to know the Puppeteer's ECL before i can determine how many levels it can have. And the Host is essentially a Dominated minion, so ECL wouldn't really stem from them. I'm riding on him, but he isn't actually me. And I plan to be jumping from Host to Host quite a bit, so re-calculating ECL each time would get very monotonous (sp?).
Cartigan 10-22-07, 09:09 PM	Well considering the puppeteer is a little worm thing and it relies on the abilities of the host, I don't see how you are going to turn this into a PC with class levels anyway - it can only use classes that its current host can use.
Tavenknaughtlin 10-22-07, 09:45 PM	I think your confused about how a Puppeteer takes control of a 'Host'. It isn't a parasite that become a part of it's host, it simply rides on it and uses it's body to do it's wishes. Here's an example: Level 6 Wizard thinks he's the BBEG and tries to take us down. My puppeteer would Charm him (assuming he fails his will save). I am placed on his neck, and now he is Dominated (as per the spell, but with no time limit as long as I am on his body and it can't be broken unless i'm removed). I am not actually a part of him, simply riding on my Mind-controlled minion's back. This means I can still use my Psionic powers, and now we have a level 6 Wizard 'cohort' following us around. He doesn't use my powers, he uses his own powers, and I don't need to use him to manifest my Psionic abilities (he can't anyways, since I don't transfer my powers to him). We are technically two seperate entities, with the exception that I'm drawing neutrients from him and controlling him like a Puppet. Think of it as having the Leadership feat, but your riding on your cohort, and the cohort will do anything you tell it to. So if i was a Puppeteer Wizard, i can't use my minion to cast my spells (i'd need some feats to cast it without verbal or somatic components just to cast spells). That's why I'm opting for Psion; you don't even need limbs to Manifest :D . Edit: Hmm, in retrospect, this probably should have gone in the Races or Monster forums. Woops :embarrass
Cartigan 10-22-07, 11:10 PM	But the Puppeteer really has nothing but a handful of psionic abilities.
Tavenknaughtlin 10-23-07, 12:15 AM	Well that's why I want to put class levels into it, lol :D . It also has some nice stat bonuses for a caster, not too mention it's Enthrall ability (although that's somewhat limited, since the target has to fail a Will save vs. your Charm ability AND touch you, and it ends when you leave the 'host'). I ran it through an ECL calculator and came up with +2.4 ECL, but then read the given ECL by the creator of the ECL calculator and he put it as +6! So either I messed up with it (very likely), or this worm is equivalent in power to an Ogre! To me a 3 or 4 sounds about right, but then again, like I said, I'm not very good at game balancing.
wonlee76 10-23-07, 10:29 AM	I ran it through an ECL calculator and came up with +2.4 ECL, but then read the given ECL by the creator of the ECL calculator and he put it as +6! So either I messed up with it (very likely), or this worm is equivalent in power to an Ogre! To me a 3 or 4 sounds about right, but then again, like I said, I'm not very good at game balancing. If the author of an ECL calculator pegs it at +6 but when you ran it through the ECL calculator and came up with +2.4, my guess is you made certain abilities "less" valuable than what the author of the ECl calculator pegged it at. I say go with the author's calculation or at least e-mail him for explanation as to how he came up with +6 so that you might be able to determine if he made a mistake.
Lincoln Hills 10-23-07, 05:15 PM	The Puppeteer's ECL might actually vary a little based on the campaign. If almost nobody in the world knows that your species exists, a higher ECL is justified - because even if an enemy sees you, he won't necessarily consider you important - just a leech stuck to the guy he's fighting, big deal. Whereas if puppeteers are known and dreaded, anybody that sees you (even if they weren't your enemy while speaking to your host\|) will probably try to kill you on sight. (That's a lower ECL.) As for class selections? Arcane and divine magic are out for you - verbal components aren't viable, and materials and foci are impossible for you to manipulate directly. Melee combat classes are out. Aside from psion or wilder, the only class I can see a tiny slug-like being excelling in is rogue. However, I'm not familiar with the numerous new base classes that 3.5 has made available: would a puppeteer make a viable Scout? Marshal?
Cartigan 10-23-07, 06:37 PM	The Puppeteer's ECL might actually vary a little based on the campaign. If almost nobody in the world knows that your species exists, a higher ECL is justified - because even if an enemy sees you, he won't necessarily consider you important - just a leech stuck to the guy he's fighting, big deal. Whereas if puppeteers are known and dreaded, anybody that sees you (even if they weren't your enemy while speaking to your host\|) will probably try to kill you on sight. (That's a lower ECL.) But the Puppeteer will be hiding out of sight. The foe would have to know the Puppeteer is there and where he is. It will be hiding in hair, fur, or under clothes, not stuck to his forehead. However, I'm not familiar with the numerous new base classes that 3.5 has made available: would a puppeteer make a viable Scout? Marshal? I doubt a puppeteer could viably take class levels. Well it could, but it would only be usable on the host, but the Puppeteers crazy psionic powers crank up its ECL even without a class.