ECL problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

ECL problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Daebereth
10-31-06, 10:20 AM Hey all.

I'm currently playing in a game where everyone is a monster, and somehow (perhaps predictably) we're ridiculously unlevelled. After reading through savage species, the players discovered that we're ranging from ecl 9-16. However, when we talked to the dm about fixing this, he insisted that species doesn't count anymore and that ecl's only matter at low levels.
Problem being, he's ignoring the yuan-ti pureblood's 4 levels of yuan-ti as described in the 3.5 MM, and is letting the Medusa take levels from the table in SS simultaneous with gaining levels.
Nothing we say works, we're just players who aren't the DM.
Please, some outside knowledge would be really helpful, because the game isn't fun anymore.:weep:
Obox_Ob
10-31-06, 11:43 AM As someone who often plays monster characters (well astral devas, mind flayers and war trolls at least, they count), I can assure your DM ECL always matters! A lot.

Admittedly, SS is 3.0E and needs some updating (monster stats and ECLs changed between editions in some cases), but it's a good start, that with some DM fiat, works quite well.

I have also sat on the other side of the table, and yes, as a DM, it pays to pay attention to ECL because yes, it will screw up a game if mishandled.

If your DM wants to dissallow Savage Species, then he either a) stops using monster characters, or b) only allows them in at the appropriate level (ie. no war troll until the party is ECL 18, because yes, having played one, it is THAT good)

The latter is preferable, but from the sounds of it, your DM just isn't ready to handle monster characters.

In my opinion of course.

I could be totally wrong.
Kradlo
10-31-06, 01:49 PM Talk to your GM in private, calmly and politely. Tell him that as GM, he's free to implement any rules that he deems fit, but that he is obliged to deal with the players in a fair and equitable fashion.

Giving certain player freebies like the Yuan-ti's +4 LA and the Medusa's racial levels is not being fair or equitable. Fair and equitable means that what goes for one goes for all.

That is certainly within reason for you to ask of your GM. If he continues, you can always vote with your feet.
DarkNick
10-31-06, 07:10 PM Maybe just see how it goes. If you have a relatively low ECL then you will get more experience and the whole thing may become more balanced in the long run.
Daebereth
10-31-06, 11:20 PM We're currently "supposed" to be at ecl9, but from what we've looked at in species (having little else to go by in how monsters work) the tiefling is the only one at 9, the yuan-ti at 13, the medusa at 16.... and then theres the vampire, which the dm "imported" over from the masquerade (why? he thinks its lore and we're not allowed to complaing about it) and none of us have any idea how it works but she may be at ecl 11. Therein lies our other problem. The vamp has been given regen 10 hp if she spends one blood point, which she can do as a free action. Her blood pool is finite, until he gave her a sword that regens her blood pool every time she hits someone. While the rest of us have all nearly died (-6,-6,-9) she hasn't come close, and its easier for us to sit fights out because she gets 2 full attacks and can move up to her speed every round.
Its not balanced, not by a long way.
How would you suggest using Species with modification to 3.5?
Man in the Funny Hat
10-31-06, 11:26 PM Nothing we say works, we're just players who aren't the DM.
Please, some outside knowledge would be really helpful, because the game isn't fun anymore.:weep:That is the point where you STOP PLAYING. Seriously. You need to talk to the DM and simply tell him/her:

"Look... we appreciate you running the game and we respect your opinion on the matter of ECL's but we HEARTILY disagree with you. We are not having fun and that makes it POINTLESS to continue as things are. We insist that we either fix this problem and continue, or we start over - and this time we all start with the same ECL. On that last point there simply can be no compromise as it is the cause of our not having fun anymore. YOU might say that it DOESN'T matter, but WE say that to US it does. End of story."
Daebereth
10-31-06, 11:35 PM We have stopped playing. We're trying to fix this out of game, but keep being told that we can't possibly understand and that he changes things at the DM's discretion.
We all want to keep playing, thats the sore part. (The vamp has no problems about her levels. She's in a different league altogether) If we can't get this sorted in the next discussion, which will be all three of us, not just one (we've been trying to make it seem like we're not ganging up on him) then we most likely won't play. But we've got some time until then... and we want to make it right.:(
Obox_Ob
11-01-06, 08:02 AM Mayhaps a bit of diplomacy MAY be able to smooth this one over. Ahem:

"Look (insert DM's name here, for this example I will use Bob). We all want to play Dungeons and Dragons, and I assume you want the same thing. Now, we understand that being a DM is very challenging Bob, even for someone with lots of experience.

But please, do not insult our intelligence. Don't assume that we can't possibly understand. That's rude, and it's uncalled for. Now, we know you may have been feeling a bit pressured at the time, so, we're not grievously insulted.

That being said, we think that there is a real problem with the party as it stands. We did some checking Bob, and the numbers don't add up. Now, if you're using DM fiat to balance things out, could you explain how? And don't assume we won't understand, just try explaining it.

If you have no such balances in place, then we should look at re-balancing the ECL of the party, either raising or lowering characters as needed.

Why?

Because this is D&D Bob. We play it to have fun. As far as we know, so do you. And until this gets fixed, it sure as hell ain't fun."

Or at least that's what I would say. Everyone's different.

As for using SS in 3.5, I'll show how my DMing buddy and I fixed it for the astral deva.

We pulled out SS, we pulled out the 3.5E MM and we pulled out looseleaf and a pencil.

We drew a blank table. We scribbled down all the changes to the astral deva between editions in the margin (thankfully, ECL wasn't one of them), ie. Dex increases, no Large size, different SLA, different immunities.

We drew up a new table using the old one as a base, incorporating the above changes. We pulled out some pre-gen characters we made for monster testing, and we double-checked the numbers.

We moved some stuff around, redrew the table in Microsoft Excel, and then boom, the astral deva in SS was updated.

Now, this took a few hours, but if you really want to play a monster, it's worth taking the time to do it right.

I still have a copy of the table (though no idea how to post it).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Daebereth 10-31-06, 10:20 AM	Hey all. I'm currently playing in a game where everyone is a monster, and somehow (perhaps predictably) we're ridiculously unlevelled. After reading through savage species, the players discovered that we're ranging from ecl 9-16. However, when we talked to the dm about fixing this, he insisted that species doesn't count anymore and that ecl's only matter at low levels. Problem being, he's ignoring the yuan-ti pureblood's 4 levels of yuan-ti as described in the 3.5 MM, and is letting the Medusa take levels from the table in SS simultaneous with gaining levels. Nothing we say works, we're just players who aren't the DM. Please, some outside knowledge would be really helpful, because the game isn't fun anymore.:weep:
Obox_Ob 10-31-06, 11:43 AM	As someone who often plays monster characters (well astral devas, mind flayers and war trolls at least, they count), I can assure your DM ECL always matters! A lot. Admittedly, SS is 3.0E and needs some updating (monster stats and ECLs changed between editions in some cases), but it's a good start, that with some DM fiat, works quite well. I have also sat on the other side of the table, and yes, as a DM, it pays to pay attention to ECL because yes, it will screw up a game if mishandled. If your DM wants to dissallow Savage Species, then he either a) stops using monster characters, or b) only allows them in at the appropriate level (ie. no war troll until the party is ECL 18, because yes, having played one, it is THAT good) The latter is preferable, but from the sounds of it, your DM just isn't ready to handle monster characters. In my opinion of course. I could be totally wrong.
Kradlo 10-31-06, 01:49 PM	Talk to your GM in private, calmly and politely. Tell him that as GM, he's free to implement any rules that he deems fit, but that he is obliged to deal with the players in a fair and equitable fashion. Giving certain player freebies like the Yuan-ti's +4 LA and the Medusa's racial levels is not being fair or equitable. Fair and equitable means that what goes for one goes for all. That is certainly within reason for you to ask of your GM. If he continues, you can always vote with your feet.
DarkNick 10-31-06, 07:10 PM	Maybe just see how it goes. If you have a relatively low ECL then you will get more experience and the whole thing may become more balanced in the long run.
Daebereth 10-31-06, 11:20 PM	We're currently "supposed" to be at ecl9, but from what we've looked at in species (having little else to go by in how monsters work) the tiefling is the only one at 9, the yuan-ti at 13, the medusa at 16.... and then theres the vampire, which the dm "imported" over from the masquerade (why? he thinks its lore and we're not allowed to complaing about it) and none of us have any idea how it works but she may be at ecl 11. Therein lies our other problem. The vamp has been given regen 10 hp if she spends one blood point, which she can do as a free action. Her blood pool is finite, until he gave her a sword that regens her blood pool every time she hits someone. While the rest of us have all nearly died (-6,-6,-9) she hasn't come close, and its easier for us to sit fights out because she gets 2 full attacks and can move up to her speed every round. Its not balanced, not by a long way. How would you suggest using Species with modification to 3.5?
Man in the Funny Hat 10-31-06, 11:26 PM	Nothing we say works, we're just players who aren't the DM. Please, some outside knowledge would be really helpful, because the game isn't fun anymore.:weep:That is the point where you STOP PLAYING. Seriously. You need to talk to the DM and simply tell him/her: "Look... we appreciate you running the game and we respect your opinion on the matter of ECL's but we HEARTILY disagree with you. We are not having fun and that makes it POINTLESS to continue as things are. We insist that we either fix this problem and continue, or we start over - and this time we all start with the same ECL. On that last point there simply can be no compromise as it is the cause of our not having fun anymore. YOU might say that it DOESN'T matter, but WE say that to US it does. End of story."
Daebereth 10-31-06, 11:35 PM	We have stopped playing. We're trying to fix this out of game, but keep being told that we can't possibly understand and that he changes things at the DM's discretion. We all want to keep playing, thats the sore part. (The vamp has no problems about her levels. She's in a different league altogether) If we can't get this sorted in the next discussion, which will be all three of us, not just one (we've been trying to make it seem like we're not ganging up on him) then we most likely won't play. But we've got some time until then... and we want to make it right.:(
Obox_Ob 11-01-06, 08:02 AM	Mayhaps a bit of diplomacy MAY be able to smooth this one over. Ahem: "Look (insert DM's name here, for this example I will use Bob). We all want to play Dungeons and Dragons, and I assume you want the same thing. Now, we understand that being a DM is very challenging Bob, even for someone with lots of experience. But please, do not insult our intelligence. Don't assume that we can't possibly understand. That's rude, and it's uncalled for. Now, we know you may have been feeling a bit pressured at the time, so, we're not grievously insulted. That being said, we think that there is a real problem with the party as it stands. We did some checking Bob, and the numbers don't add up. Now, if you're using DM fiat to balance things out, could you explain how? And don't assume we won't understand, just try explaining it. If you have no such balances in place, then we should look at re-balancing the ECL of the party, either raising or lowering characters as needed. Why? Because this is D&D Bob. We play it to have fun. As far as we know, so do you. And until this gets fixed, it sure as hell ain't fun." Or at least that's what I would say. Everyone's different. As for using SS in 3.5, I'll show how my DMing buddy and I fixed it for the astral deva. We pulled out SS, we pulled out the 3.5E MM and we pulled out looseleaf and a pencil. We drew a blank table. We scribbled down all the changes to the astral deva between editions in the margin (thankfully, ECL wasn't one of them), ie. Dex increases, no Large size, different SLA, different immunities. We drew up a new table using the old one as a base, incorporating the above changes. We pulled out some pre-gen characters we made for monster testing, and we double-checked the numbers. We moved some stuff around, redrew the table in Microsoft Excel, and then boom, the astral deva in SS was updated. Now, this took a few hours, but if you really want to play a monster, it's worth taking the time to do it right. I still have a copy of the table (though no idea how to post it).