ECL/ LA question [Archive] - Wizards Community

ECL/ LA question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bloodseareavor
03-21-06, 02:49 PM does any one know the rule as far as level adjustments and adventures the character should be going on?

is there a resource that depicts how a template can be considered differnt then an actual race? half-dragon vs. Minotaur

I know Savage species would help me out with this but so far i have seen no other resource besides what i found on d20srd.org, where as the definition of level adjustment

which states that a character's starting ECL is based on the LA of the base creature/template plus their class level so for example a half-dragon has a total ECL of 5
but the ECL is only taken into account for how much XP is earned and how much XP is needed to advance levels and for the calculation of starting money

other then that nothing

the debate we are having is that the character should be running on advenutures where the ECL is the level range and not the pure class level

i think it should be the class level over the ECL, because you are already taking the reduction of xp because of ECL so you advance less frequently

other wise would you not get the appropriate stat increases and feats to cover for the ECL

i know i would feel different if templates were treated different then races in a fashion that more reflex how ECL's work, there seems to be little balance in how they are determined

any thoughts would be helpful.

thank you verymuch
evilviper77
03-21-06, 03:52 PM If i am reading this right (correct me if not) you are saying that you think if you are playing a campaign for x number of y level players that your ECL shouldn't factor in your base starting level. That you should start out with the same number of class levels as the rest of the players regardless of ECL?

[this next bit is assuming the above is what you think]

While i can see where you are coming from i would have to disagree. The whole basis of a LA is that you are more powerful than a regular character of comparable class levels with a non-LA base race. So starting out at the same character level would make you more powerful than everyone else, thus bringing an imbalance to the group (after all ECL stands for EFFECTIVE character level, as if you are effectively that level).

The problem i have with LA's and templates is that while you become more powerful, you miss out on the stuff that is most important (even more so with high LA templates/races). Those things being HD, base attack, skill points (sometimes), saves, and spells (if a spell casting class) while in effect all you are doing is taking x-number of "levels" in the template (equal to the LA) while ONLY getting 'class features' (which i mean by the special qualities like breath, NA, stat increases, and immunites with half dragon template) and not retaining any of those important things like HD, saves, etc... etc.

The way we do LA and ECL in the campaign i am playing in is this.

I have an elf ranger with the 'winged' template (+2 LA). Which has an ECL of 4 with 2 levels in ranger.

Thus i will have a total of 2d8 +con HPs, (6+int)*5 skill points, 3/3/0 saves, combat style, tracking, wild empathy, fav enemy, my 1st level feat, my 4th level feat (because feats go by ECL not CL), and +1 to any stat, as well as a +6 to dex (+4 temp, +2 elf), +2 wis, +2 bab, and landspeed +20ft perfect fly speed.

The question is, is that ECL 4 ranger just as powerful to a straight 4th level elf ranger? Well to decide that you must compare what i get to what i lose.

Lose
1) 2d8 +con hps
2) +2 to my BAB
3) -1 to all my saves because of lower level
4) (6+int)*2 skill points lost
5) lose out on endurance and animal companion as well as 1 spell (if i have high enough wisdom)

Balancing benefits
1) wings will sometimes keep me out of battles so hp isn't as big a concern, +4 to dex raises ac so i'm harder to hit as well but for the most part it's a penalty to having a LA.

2)+4 to dex gives me a +2 to my attack so it stays the same (if i use weapon finesse or ranged only). Must wait two levels more than other party members to unlock the +6/+1 attacks, once again a penalty to having a LA.

3) i get a +2 to my reflex and a +1 to my will (+2 wisdom) so my saves for the most part stay the same. Tie for this one.

4) i only gain (2+int)*3 skill points from template (if i read it right) but yet i can have max ranks of ECL+3 in my skills. ??? Tie for this one.

5) nothing here to compensate, penalty to having a LA.

Final score... no LA > LA

But that doesn't really do a LA justice. With a +2 to wis and a +4 to dex my skills that involve those skills go up, wings allow me to fly wherever i want to and makes for a good scout. Having wings is just pimp in the first place, being able to unlock some of the fly able feats is a plus, and i usually don't get hit in combat because i can get away from the majority of melee mobs.

Overall it's pretty even but because of this vagueness on if LA's are worth it or not unearthed arcana put in the "reducing LA" costs so that you can always lower them for a large sum of xp to effectively strengthen your character back up in the long run.

sorry for the length, and hope this helps.
evilviper77
03-21-06, 03:55 PM Oh, and the difference between templates and races with a LA are that races usually get bonus HD which add to your ECL. So an ogre with 5 bonus HD, a +2 LA, and 1 class level of fighter has an ECL of 8.
Bloodseareavor
03-22-06, 08:38 AM well it seems we are both aproaching it but here is the kick in the nuts

and this is from the FAQ

Effective Character level only refers to the amount of experiance needed to advance in level and how much experiance is garnered allong with the proper allotment of starting money (not sure why on this one)

the example was brought up in regards to a Minotaur build for 15 levels
minotaur (ecl of 8) + 7 class levels equals 15 wich in effect was incorrect, it is a 13
mintoaur has only 6 hit dice and with onle sevel class levels on top of that it effectively makes it only a 13th level character with a 15 ECl, so it has the feats/ abilities/ stats adjustments/ saving throws/ and so on and son of a 13, but needs to advance as a 15 and gain xp as a 15

Character level equals class level + racial hit dice (if any)

so that covers alot of ground in my querries, but not all of it
Bloodseareavor
03-22-06, 08:41 AM the only and most basic penalty for LA isthat you andvace much slower because you are more powerful then the base races out of PHB

so it would prove to stand that characters with higher ecls are much more apt to be better at singled themed adventures vs. a campaign where they cannot fall behind

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bloodseareavor 03-21-06, 02:49 PM	does any one know the rule as far as level adjustments and adventures the character should be going on? is there a resource that depicts how a template can be considered differnt then an actual race? half-dragon vs. Minotaur I know Savage species would help me out with this but so far i have seen no other resource besides what i found on d20srd.org, where as the definition of level adjustment which states that a character's starting ECL is based on the LA of the base creature/template plus their class level so for example a half-dragon has a total ECL of 5 but the ECL is only taken into account for how much XP is earned and how much XP is needed to advance levels and for the calculation of starting money other then that nothing the debate we are having is that the character should be running on advenutures where the ECL is the level range and not the pure class level i think it should be the class level over the ECL, because you are already taking the reduction of xp because of ECL so you advance less frequently other wise would you not get the appropriate stat increases and feats to cover for the ECL i know i would feel different if templates were treated different then races in a fashion that more reflex how ECL's work, there seems to be little balance in how they are determined any thoughts would be helpful. thank you verymuch
evilviper77 03-21-06, 03:52 PM	If i am reading this right (correct me if not) you are saying that you think if you are playing a campaign for x number of y level players that your ECL shouldn't factor in your base starting level. That you should start out with the same number of class levels as the rest of the players regardless of ECL? [this next bit is assuming the above is what you think] While i can see where you are coming from i would have to disagree. The whole basis of a LA is that you are more powerful than a regular character of comparable class levels with a non-LA base race. So starting out at the same character level would make you more powerful than everyone else, thus bringing an imbalance to the group (after all ECL stands for EFFECTIVE character level, as if you are effectively that level). The problem i have with LA's and templates is that while you become more powerful, you miss out on the stuff that is most important (even more so with high LA templates/races). Those things being HD, base attack, skill points (sometimes), saves, and spells (if a spell casting class) while in effect all you are doing is taking x-number of "levels" in the template (equal to the LA) while ONLY getting 'class features' (which i mean by the special qualities like breath, NA, stat increases, and immunites with half dragon template) and not retaining any of those important things like HD, saves, etc... etc. The way we do LA and ECL in the campaign i am playing in is this. I have an elf ranger with the 'winged' template (+2 LA). Which has an ECL of 4 with 2 levels in ranger. Thus i will have a total of 2d8 +con HPs, (6+int)5 skill points, 3/3/0 saves, combat style, tracking, wild empathy, fav enemy, my 1st level feat, my 4th level feat (because feats go by ECL not CL), and +1 to any stat, as well as a +6 to dex (+4 temp, +2 elf), +2 wis, +2 bab, and landspeed +20ft perfect fly speed. The question is, is that ECL 4 ranger just as powerful to a straight 4th level elf ranger? Well to decide that you must compare what i get to what i lose. Lose 1) 2d8 +con hps 2) +2 to my BAB 3) -1 to all my saves because of lower level 4) (6+int)2 skill points lost 5) lose out on endurance and animal companion as well as 1 spell (if i have high enough wisdom) Balancing benefits 1) wings will sometimes keep me out of battles so hp isn't as big a concern, +4 to dex raises ac so i'm harder to hit as well but for the most part it's a penalty to having a LA. 2)+4 to dex gives me a +2 to my attack so it stays the same (if i use weapon finesse or ranged only). Must wait two levels more than other party members to unlock the +6/+1 attacks, once again a penalty to having a LA. 3) i get a +2 to my reflex and a +1 to my will (+2 wisdom) so my saves for the most part stay the same. Tie for this one. 4) i only gain (2+int)*3 skill points from template (if i read it right) but yet i can have max ranks of ECL+3 in my skills. ??? Tie for this one. 5) nothing here to compensate, penalty to having a LA. Final score... no LA > LA But that doesn't really do a LA justice. With a +2 to wis and a +4 to dex my skills that involve those skills go up, wings allow me to fly wherever i want to and makes for a good scout. Having wings is just pimp in the first place, being able to unlock some of the fly able feats is a plus, and i usually don't get hit in combat because i can get away from the majority of melee mobs. Overall it's pretty even but because of this vagueness on if LA's are worth it or not unearthed arcana put in the "reducing LA" costs so that you can always lower them for a large sum of xp to effectively strengthen your character back up in the long run. sorry for the length, and hope this helps.
evilviper77 03-21-06, 03:55 PM	Oh, and the difference between templates and races with a LA are that races usually get bonus HD which add to your ECL. So an ogre with 5 bonus HD, a +2 LA, and 1 class level of fighter has an ECL of 8.
Bloodseareavor 03-22-06, 08:38 AM	well it seems we are both aproaching it but here is the kick in the nuts and this is from the FAQ Effective Character level only refers to the amount of experiance needed to advance in level and how much experiance is garnered allong with the proper allotment of starting money (not sure why on this one) the example was brought up in regards to a Minotaur build for 15 levels minotaur (ecl of 8) + 7 class levels equals 15 wich in effect was incorrect, it is a 13 mintoaur has only 6 hit dice and with onle sevel class levels on top of that it effectively makes it only a 13th level character with a 15 ECl, so it has the feats/ abilities/ stats adjustments/ saving throws/ and so on and son of a 13, but needs to advance as a 15 and gain xp as a 15 Character level equals class level + racial hit dice (if any) so that covers alot of ground in my querries, but not all of it
Bloodseareavor 03-22-06, 08:41 AM	the only and most basic penalty for LA isthat you andvace much slower because you are more powerful then the base races out of PHB so it would prove to stand that characters with higher ecls are much more apt to be better at singled themed adventures vs. a campaign where they cannot fall behind