Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ValnoarMilloranth 02-10-05, 11:48 PM	I was planning ahead for my latest character who is currently a 4th level wizard and was wondering which of the two prestige classes: Eldritch Knight or Dragon Disciple--- was stronger in the long run. I like to consider all options before making a final decision. Also, is Eldritch Knight possible with a Wizard/Barbarian multi-class combo? :confused:
Jell_Moo 02-11-05, 12:15 AM	Well, to start with, a Wizard cannot qualify to be a Dragon Disciple. It requires a spontaneous arcane caster, and a wizard prepares his spells ahead of time. A Barbarian/Wizard qualifies for the Eldritch Knight just fine. Power wise, the Edlritch Knight trumps the Dragon Disciple anyway. Just remember, either PrC, or any PrC really, changes your focus. The Eldritch Knight is cool, and will enhance your melee ability, but you will sacrifice your spellcasting for it. While you'll still be a good caster, you won't be *as* good as a pure class wizard.
Count Arioch the 28th 02-11-05, 12:20 AM	Alternately, if you play as a dragon disciple, you won't be good at anything at all. You won't be able to fight, or cast meaningful spells at higher levels. So, pick Dragon disciple only if you're one of those types who insists you have to kick yourself in the crotch repeatedly to "roleplay".
Jell_Moo 02-11-05, 12:58 AM	Hey hey, that's not true. The Dragon Disciple is great at... Well, I mean to say that it excels at... It's certainly very useful when it comes to... Ok, the only nice thing I can say about the Dragon Disciple is that it's slightly better than the 3.0 version.
PhaedrusXY 02-11-05, 01:14 AM	The best use (or abuse, if you'd rather) of Dragon Disciple I've seen is adding it to the end of a character that gets higher level spells faster than normal, like an Ur-Priest, Apostle of Peace, or Nar Demonbinder. It's nice to get a bunch of extra high-level spellslots.
Derren S. 02-11-05, 01:25 AM	An Eldricht Knight is still a primary caster. He does have a bit more HP than a wizard and a higher BAB, but in melee he is still weak. A Dragon Disciplin is no primary caster, but a extreme strong melee character who can use some spells (Best for buffing himself) As wizard doesn't qualify for DD and you seem to want to play a caster and not a melee fighter, take EK or stay wizard until archmage.
ValnoarMilloranth 02-11-05, 02:02 AM	EK seems to be the better choice, then. However, the sound of Archmage sounds intriguing. Would you care to elaborate on that prestige class, Derren S.?
Jell_Moo 02-11-05, 02:41 AM	An Eldricht Knight is still a primary caster. He does have a bit more HP than a wizard and a higher BAB, but in melee he is still weak. Oh, no doubt that he is still a primary caster, he's just not quite as good at it as a full class Wizard would be. Losing two levels of spellcasting is a painful thing for a caster. As is, he isn't really top notch in melee. After a buff or two, he gets by in melee just fine. The easiest trick is to use spells like Polymorph or Shapechange and take advantage of the higher BAB and small increase in hit points. A Dragon Disciplin is no primary caster, but a extreme strong melee character who can use some spells (Best for buffing himself) I'd actually say that the Dragon Disciple is certainly not a primary caster, and is a somewhat weak melee character actually. In order to be acceptable in melee he has to drop almost all spellcasting. If he drops almost all spellcasting, he lacks the ability to buff himself and do well in melee. The Dragon Disciple is a real catch-22. As wizard doesn't qualify for DD and you seem to want to play a caster and not a melee fighter, take EK or stay wizard until archmage. Better yet, pick up a copy of the Complete Arcane and look throught the PrCs in it. There are a wide variety to choose from. Not to say that the Archmage is bad, far from it. It's just one of those classes you have to wait a long time to qualify for, so it's usually a good idea to pick up a PrC or two along the way. A Wizard 6/Mindebender 1/Fatespinner 3/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 5/Archmage 5. Not an uber build by any stretch of the imagination, and it'll take a little doing in qualifying, but there are some really cool abilities in here.
The nameles one 02-11-05, 03:59 AM	I think that the Dragon Disciple is great. Just get that amulet in Savage Species that gives magical properties to natural weapons. +5 Speed Bite/Claw/Claw + Multiattack+ Strenght at least 20. :D
DM Zoc 02-11-05, 05:15 AM	I've always thought that Dragon Disciple was one of the better classes out there for a melee fighter. You have d12's to compensate for the d4's of any sorcerer level you have, and the strength bonus more than compensates for the lack of BAB (plus you get damage). Add in wings, and I can't find the downside. Alternatively, you could take six levels in sorcerer and use practiced spellcaster to throw max-die fireballs. Eldritch Knight makes a great archer-type, from what I can tell.
Derren S. 02-11-05, 06:28 AM	As is, he isn't really top notch in melee. After a buff or two, he gets by in melee just fine. The easiest trick is to use spells like Polymorph or Shapechange and take advantage of the higher BAB and small increase in hit points. Shapechange would only be atainable at lvl 20. And polymorph does give you some good forms, but has a short duration, is dispellable and doesn't cover the greates weaknes, hp. A EK in a fight which lasts longer than a couple of rounds is dead as polymorphed AC ist normally not good and an EK can't wear much armor except stilling all his spells.(Don't forget that you need many caster level for EK, so the BAB will still be not as good as a fighter BAB) I'd actually say that the Dragon Disciple is certainly not a primary caster, and is a somewhat weak melee character actually. In order to be acceptable in melee he has to drop almost all spellcasting. If he drops almost all spellcasting, he lacks the ability to buff himself and do well in melee. The Dragon Disciple is a real catch-22. A DD a weak melee class? You must be dreaming. By your reasoning Babarians are weak melee classes because they can't buff themself. DD gets the highest HD in the game, huge ability bonuses which make up for their 2/3 BAB, two good saves and natural armor. In short, they get everything for free what mosts buff would give them and they can still buff themself up with low level spells (shield for example) and pumping spells into arcane strike certainly isn't bad too.
Draco Strang 02-11-05, 07:57 AM	Hey hey, that's not true. The Dragon Disciple is great at... Well, I mean to say that it excels at... It's certainly very useful when it comes to... Ok, the only nice thing I can say about the Dragon Disciple is that it's slightly better than the 3.0 version. No no no. At least in 3.0, you got a size boost. I MUCH prefer the size boost. Also, a DM i know houseruled that Dragon Disciples get a new caster level every third level. This offsets the lack of arcane ability, and makes up for those suckass "bonus spells" you get.
Derren S. 02-11-05, 08:19 AM	Why does the DD need caster levels? The DD is no spellcasting class, but a pure melee class which has spellcasting as prerequisit.
der_gogo 02-11-05, 08:27 AM	You gotta use Bard instead of Sorcerer for a DD, its much more powerful imho. The bard song is +1 on attacks and damage, not only for you, but also the whole team... plus you can use healing wands.
Kulthos 02-11-05, 11:19 AM	With the use of still spell, AK is fun for Fighter/wizards with a big F and a small w. One path is to take four fighter levels, then go wizard until 9th, and then go Ak. An AK wearing heavy armor using stilled buffs and verbal only spells can be pretty cool. It also helps reduce some of the problems fighters have at high levels. Using full plate armor, alter self, and the shield spell is a good way for the fighter to wield a two-hander in combat and have a good AC. You will quickly figure out which spells are V only, but these can be great for a fighter. True strike (combined with power attack on a two hander), blindness, and dimension door are all great.
Jell_Moo 02-11-05, 12:02 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Shapechange would only be atainable at lvl 20. And polymorph does give you some good forms, but has a short duration, is dispellable and doesn't cover the greates weaknes, hp. A EK in a fight which lasts longer than a couple of rounds is dead as polymorphed AC ist normally not good and an EK can't wear much armor except stilling all his spells.(Don't forget that you need many caster level for EK, so the BAB will still be not as good as a fighter BAB) The Eldritch Knight is a Gish, pure and simple. It has both combat ability and arcane ability, though neither to the extent of what a pure class would have. It uses it's arcane abilities to buff himself up and enter melee. The way to really make the Eldritch Knight work is to use a few more sources. Tacking on some Spellsword for example will allow you to gain some hitpoints, and be able to use armor. Spells like Polymorph, Tensor's Transformation, the ani-buff spells, haste, etc... Give the Eldritch Knight the ability to be good at melee. As good as the typical frontline melee guy? No. Then again, odds are the frontline mlee guy can't cast teleport when things get tough, or use divinations to learn things. You take the bad with the good. A DD a weak melee class? You must be dreaming. By your reasoning Babarians are weak melee classes because they can't buff themself. DD gets the highest HD in the game, huge ability bonuses which make up for their 2/3 BAB, two good saves and natural armor. In short, they get everything for free what mosts buff would give them and they can still buff themself up with low level spells (shield for example) and pumping spells into arcane strike certainly isn't bad too. The Dragon Disciple's big problem is the fact that it has a 3/4 BAB. The other problem is that it requires a spontaneous caster level, which makes the BAB lower yet. For example, the best BAB a 13th level character (who is concentrating solely on DD) can have is +10. For a melee character, that's a painful thing. The strength bonus helps to compensate for the lack of ability to hit, but it doesn't help with the having 1 less attack per round. A high Str doesn't completely make up for the low BAB, unfortunately, and therin lies the problem. The DD gains iterative attacks later than other melee classes, and those extra attacks are the bread and butter of the melee classes. This also means that the DD qualifies for things like feats and possibly other PrCs later. The ability to use Arcane Strike means that you have more caster levels, more caster levels means weaker melee ability... You see where I am going here? :) The fact that one of it's abilities is bonus spells is a kick to the junk since the ability is next to worthless. The DD is a PrC where it has many neat abilities which simply don't click because of other built in weaknesses, and doesn't really give a character good focus. Melee is decent, but you're ultimately 4 BAB behind. Maning by the time the fighter gets that 3rd attack, you have four more levels to wait. Those 4 levels are going to make it very clear that the Fighter is really outshining you. Originally posted by Draco Strang No no no. At least in 3.0, you got a size boost. I MUCH prefer the size boost. Also, a DM i know houseruled that Dragon Disciples get a new caster level every third level. This offsets the lack of arcane ability, and makes up for those suckass "bonus spells" you get. You are correct sir. I had completely forgotten about the size increase, the things I remembered were the odd hit die progression, and the fact that different dragon types gave different breath weapon damages... For myself, I would likely take out the bonus spells altogether, and then either make it a full BAB class (tack on a few feat prereqs though) or give it a few spell like abilities as the Dragon type would get. Originally posted by der_gogo You gotta use Bard instead of Sorcerer for a DD, its much more powerful imho. The bard song is +1 on attacks and damage, not only for you, but also the whole team... plus you can use healing wands. My thought is that the best way to qualify for DD is to use the Hexblade. This nets you better BAB, better hit points, better weapon selection, and a few neat abilities. Makes you better equiped to melee IMHO.
eRaz0r 02-11-05, 12:51 PM	But if your play a pure melee DD, then you're taking a full BAB class for several levels anyway, and perhaps only a single level of Sorcerer/Hexblade/Bard/whatever. This can offset the difficulties of the lower BAB from DD. Lets look at your example : A 13th level character with a +10 BAB has 2 attacks. A 13th level Fighter has .. 3 attacks but his last one is at a measly +3. The DD is going to hit more often with his 2 attacks due to the higher STR than the fighter is with his 3. I think both builds are viable melee characters. Of course trying to make a caster-centric character with DD levels thrown in is a fools errand, as was already pointed out. If you concentrate on the DD for the attribute bonuses etc, then you've got a decent character. Forget the spells are even there and you can see the power of the character. Hmm - I wonder what a build mixing Green Star Adept and DD would be like...?
tarkin 02-11-05, 01:33 PM	The Dragon Disciple is not a bad class, if taken intelligently. Two levels of it are GREAT for a Sorceror/rogue or Arcane Trickster - two natural attacks really help out your Sneak Attack in melee and the bonuses to strength, HP, spells make it worth your while. If you only are a warriot type that took a single level of Sorceror to get access to a first level spell (Shield, True Strike, Enlarge Person are commonly thought of as worth it), the Dragon Disciple can make more sense than another level of whatever else you took. It definitely is NOT for someone that wants to actually cast spells as a main part of their PC. Look at a Sorceror 1, Fighter 9. He could get 10 more levels of Fighter, resulting in: +10 BAB, +10 HD(10 sided), +5 Fort, +3 refelx and will, and four feats. Or he could take 10 levels of DD for: +7 BAB, +10 HD (12HD), +7 Fort and Will, +3 Reflex, +4 Natural AC, permaenent +8 strength, permanent +2 con, +2 permanent Charisma, permanent +2 int, Blindsense, Extra spells, natural attacks, Wings, Breath Weapon, low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon Treat +6 of the strength increase and the extra natural attacks as equivelent to +3 BAB, which would you rather have: 4 feats or the tons of good things the DD gets? DD is not a bad choice. But it is pretty much only for people that either 1) are only taking one level of Sorceror/Bard, 2) need some natural attacks, or 3) Have finished their main PrC and want to top it off with an easy to qualify for PrC.
Maerdash 02-11-05, 02:07 PM	Everyone seems to be forgeting one important thing about the DD. Natural attacks, the DD can use a weapon normally and take a bite as a secondary natural attack, and if not using a shield (use the shield spell its worth it) it also gets to make a single claw attack as a secondary attack, or he can take multiattack and focus on his natural weapons two attacks from BaB with bite and two claws at -2? Add in feats and you have a very nasty melee fighter IMO
spasheridan 02-11-05, 02:28 PM	My personal view of the DD is that it's great at the end of the PC. My thoughts would go.. Fighter 1 / Sor 6/ Eldritch Knight 10/ spellsword 3 (for the 1st 20) then EK 11 and then DD from 22 to 31. Alternatly you could go only spellsword 1 and sorc 8 for the 1st 20 to get a caster level of 18 instead of 17 by 20th level. But I stick the DD at the end of the build after you've recieved all the CL and BAB that you want so the perks are awesome and the things you miss out on are not a big deal.
Nom 02-11-05, 04:53 PM	DD is not a bad choice. But it is pretty much only for people that either 1) are only taking one level of Sorceror/Bard, 2)Personally, I think you can have a melee DD build even with 4 levels of bard and 1 level of a primary melee class (F/B/R) for BAB and weapon proficiencies. You sacrifice some hp and feats/specials, but don't suffer any further BAB reduction, and instead gain better spells and music.
Delfedd 02-13-05, 07:54 PM	Hey hey, that's not true. The Dragon Disciple is great at... Well, I mean to say that it excels at... It's certainly very useful when it comes to... Ok, the only nice thing I can say about the Dragon Disciple is that it's slightly better than the 3.0 version. Well they can fly. If your DM allows it, become an EK, than show him the Half dragon progression thing in savage progression. ask for some kind of quest thingie to become a half dragon.
DM Zoc 02-13-05, 09:09 PM	A high Str doesn't completely make up for the low BAB, unfortunately, and therin lies the problem. The DD gains iterative attacks later than other melee classes, and those extra attacks are the bread and butter of the melee classes. This also means that the DD qualifies for things like feats and possibly other PrCs later. I disagree entirely. Iterative attacks are nearly worthless, because your chance of hitting with them against a decent opponent is negligible. It is much more important that your good attack (the first one) deal lots of damage. Or are you saying that War Hulk was a waste of paper?
Count Arioch the 28th 02-13-05, 09:49 PM	Why does the DD need caster levels? The DD is no spellcasting class, but a pure melee class which has spellcasting as prerequisit. The Dragon disciple is not a melee class, because it's worthless in melee.
Count Arioch the 28th 02-13-05, 09:50 PM	. Or are you saying that War Hulk was a waste of paper? Without the Hulking Hurler, the war hulk IS a waste of paper.
Jell_Moo 02-13-05, 10:59 PM	I disagree entirely. Iterative attacks are nearly worthless, because your chance of hitting with them against a decent opponent is negligible. It is much more important that your good attack (the first one) deal lots of damage. Or are you saying that War Hulk was a waste of paper? I'm sorry, but it isn't quite true. The last attack is great to mix things up a bit. Use it to trip the opponent for example. Even then, it isn't hopeless to score an attack with it. BAB +20, last attack is at +5 Str gives a +10 bonus (easy at 20th level) +5 weapon At that point you have a +20 to hit with your last attack. CR 20 creatures have ACs in the area of 33 (Old Red Dragon)-40 (Pit Fiend) (ish). Then other things can add up to help. A Paladin can Smite Evil to tack that up. A Fighter with GWF adds 2 more. A Raging Barbarian will add 4 to that number. Buff spells will also make that number rise. A Bard using Inspire Courage ups that number by another 4. Making that 4th attack connect isn't all that hard. With only a little planning, making that 4th attack hit about 50% of the time is easilly done. AC does not rise the same way as attack bonuses do. And the Count is right, the War Hulk isn't a good PrC (at least without using the HH). It works out ok against several weaker opponents who are stupid enough to line up or surround him, but is pathetic against enemies who use ranged tactics, or against a single powerful enemy. It does absolutely nothing except damage, and even then is overshadowed by a Core Barbarian. A Frenzied Berserker will completely embarass the War Hulk when it comes to dealing damage.
Derren S. 02-14-05, 01:15 AM	The Dragon disciple is not a melee class, because it's worthless in melee. So, why? Because it has tons of HP, a great attacl with big damage and natural armor?
Josh_Kablack 02-14-05, 03:24 AM	EK is worth it if and only if 1. You took the fighter or BBN or similar level at 1st level to get the hit point boost. 2. No-non core rules PrCs are available. DD is worthwhile if and only if: 1. You're not trading in caster levels or much BAB for it. If you get in as a Sorc1/BBN4, then dipping for the first two levels is palatable as it gives you 2 more color sprays/day +1 natural armor and a Str increase to make up for the loss of BAB at 1st level. Additionally it gives you the natural armor and weapons which could come in handy if you ever lost all of your gear and don't really matter otherwise. As a single classed 4th level wizard, I'd seriously advise you to plan on taking more Wizard levels over either of these PrCs.
Mikal 02-14-05, 03:30 AM	I think that the Dragon Disciple is great. Just get that amulet in Savage Species that gives magical properties to natural weapons. +5 Speed Bite/Claw/Claw + Multiattack+ Strenght at least 20. :D Or get all that as a true half dragon, and save yourself seven total levels, minus pre-req levels.
Mikal 02-14-05, 03:34 AM	Without the Hulking Hurler, the war hulk IS a waste of paper. Unless used in Epic Play, in which case it's free bonuses to hit every level! (+1 every odd level, +2 with epic BaB every even) ;)
Derren S. 02-14-05, 04:05 AM	Or get all that as a true half dragon, and save yourself seven total levels, minus pre-req levels. And minus the great HP, blindsense, bonus spells, two good saves and bab. HD is good when you do want something other than a melee tank (caster or rogue for example) but for a Half Dragon melee tank, DD is best.
Mikal 02-14-05, 04:09 AM	And minus the great HP, blindsense, bonus spells, two good saves and bab. HD is good when you do want something other than a melee tank (caster or rogue for example) but for a Half Dragon melee tank, DD is best. You get better HP as a Half Dragon, if you're going melee, because it increases by one step anyway. Blindsense is easily gotten with a cheap magic item (blindfold of true darkness), you can multiclass, PrC, become a paladin, or be a monk or ranger if you want good saves, and you get BETTER BaB as a Half-Dragon with a straight melee build, since you have to waste at least one level for sorcerer or bard, thus making the 'total' BaB of a level 15 DD one less then that of a LA 15 Half Dragon Melee Build
DM Zoc 02-14-05, 05:04 AM	You get better HP as a Half Dragon, if you're going melee, because it increases by one step anyway. Blindsense is easily gotten with a cheap magic item (blindfold of true darkness), you can multiclass, PrC, become a paladin, or be a monk or ranger if you want good saves, and you get BETTER BaB as a Half-Dragon with a straight melee build, since you have to waste at least one level for sorcerer or bard, thus making the 'total' BaB of a level 15 DD one less then that of a LA 15 Half Dragon Melee Build Few things: Half Dragon only increases racial hit dice by one step, not class hit dice Blindfold of True Darkness doesn't mesh with 3.5 ; it is significantly overpowered compared to another item which does exist in 3.5 Hexblade meets the spellcasting pre-requisite, and it has full BAB
Mikal 02-14-05, 05:40 AM	Few things: Half Dragon only increases racial hit dice by one step, not class hit dice Blindfold of True Darkness doesn't mesh with 3.5 ; it is significantly overpowered compared to another item which does exist in 3.5 Hexblade meets the spellcasting pre-requisite, and it has full BAB Ok, I was wrong about the racial HD. The Blindfold is your opinion, nothing more. And while the Hexblade does meet the pre-reqs, A Half Dragon Human Hexblade 17 will still be stronger then a Human Hexblade 6/ Dragon Disciple 10/ Hexblade 4
Derren S. 02-14-05, 05:46 AM	The Blindfold is your opinion, nothing more. Still, the blindfold is 3.0 where blindsight/sense worked differently than in 3.5 SO you can't reaqlly argue that it is balanced for 3.5 as it was made under a completly different mechanic. And while the Hexblade does meet the pre-reqs, A Half Dragon Human Hexblade 17 will still be stronger then a Human Hexblade 6/ Dragon Disciple 10/ Hexblade 4 Not in melee combat.
Mikal 02-14-05, 05:49 AM	Still, the blindfold is 3.0 where blindsight/sense worked differently than in 3.5 SO you can't reaqlly argue that it is balanced for 3.5 as it was made under a completly different mechanic. Not in melee combat. Actually, yes in melee combat. Because while you may have bonus 1st level hexblade spells and a little more HP, I have the almost full range of hexblade abilities, better saves, AND better spells, plus greater Hexblade Curse
likuidice 02-14-05, 09:47 AM	A dragon disciple with a spiked chain is better than any other spiked chain fighter build (except possibly war hulk). in fact, any character who values the extra damage and bonuses to stats will be happy with it. it frees up a bunch of item slots (blindsense, darkvision, a breath weapon, flight etc), it gets better natural ac than any other melee oriented class, and it stacks with enhancement bonuses, the stat bonuses are level increase style, and stack with buffs. the motto here is teamwork, as with any other frontline melee type, you benefit from the wizard and clerics buff spells. take truestrike and maybe enlarge as your spells via a single sorc level, and you can begin every combat with the truestrike/power attack combo. even enlarge won't hurt, as you have enough spell slots to lose a couple to spell failure, given a pre combat buff session. the bonus to int is also a useful one, as it allows access to combat expertise if your stat is 11 (as int isnt a priority for melee types), thus giving access to disarm, trip etc, which will work better with the +8 strength from the class. a con bonus is always nice, and paladin based DDs get a nice cha bonus, upping their saves by 1. eventually, you also get a 4th attack, if you stick with melee class 9/DD 10/sorc or bard 1. nice builds include: Fighter 4/sorc 1 (3 bonus feats, perfect for spiked chain build, + wpn spec) pally 4/sorc 1 (cha synergy, all decent pally abilities in first 4 levels) Barb 4/bard 1 (skald build, rage, uncanny dodge, and bard music and skills)
Vintar 02-14-05, 10:03 AM	The way to go with Dragon Diciple is Fighter 1/Hexblade 4/Dragon Disciple 10/Fighter 5. By the way - pure Hexblade wouldn't have better saves - DD has high saves in Fort AND Will as well the DD would have more HP and blindsense. I'd say they'd be pretty close in a 1v1 fight depending upon gear/circumstances. However - I would say that the total advantage would go to the DD by a hair because of skill points/feats/hitdice. (Spells whose power is based on hitdice are the bane on LA races)
Derren S. 02-14-05, 10:47 AM	Actually, yes in melee combat. Because while you may have bonus 1st level hexblade spells and a little more HP, I have the almost full range of hexblade abilities, better saves, AND better spells, plus greater Hexblade Curse Lets see. Both have the same BAB (17), the DD has on average 10 more HP, a better skill selection and way better saves (10/6/10 vs. 5/5/10) has blindsense and can fly with wings. Depending on how the class was leveled he could cast one 1st level spell and seven second level spells per day. The only thing the HD has better is 2 uses more per day of Hexblade Curese with better DC, two uses of Aura of unluck, a bonus feat and 3rd and 4th level spells. So, except for spellcasting the DD is better. And don't forget that at lower level the HD is very hard to play.
Mikal 02-14-05, 11:19 AM	Lets see. Both have the same BAB (17), the DD has on average 10 more HP, a better skill selection and way better saves (10/6/10 vs. 5/5/10) has blindsense and can fly with wings. Depending on how the class was leveled he could cast one 1st level spell and seven second level spells per day. The only thing the HD has better is 2 uses more per day of Hexblade Curese with better DC, two uses of Aura of unluck, a bonus feat and 3rd and 4th level spells. So, except for spellcasting the DD is better. And don't forget that at lower level the HD is very hard to play. Except that the Attack bonus of the DD gets lowered by the Greater Hexblades Curse, the Hexblade doesn't NEED to have a better skills selection, and saves aren't a problem when you have a Divine Grace like effect. As for blindsense, you can still get a cheap item to compensate, same for flying. And the Half Dragon build STILL gets better spell casting then the DD thanks to the extra Hexblade levels. If you wanted to make it even WORSE, however, you can PrC into something else. Because while you're taking 10 levels to become a half Dragon, I can just go into say... Kensai, get a free +10 weapon, PLUS an additional unnamed +8 to Strength, plus other goodies. Yeah, at lower levels the HD is harder to play, but in the long run, it's the better choice, because the HD gets everything except (sometimes) wings, and blindsense, and can still PrC into something better.
Derren S. 02-14-05, 12:42 PM	Only that against the good willsave of the DD the curse will likely fail and teh DD can use greater curse too. And who said that a blindsense item is cheap? Same for the flying item. The DD can spend his money and slots on other, better items. That the DD has the better skills is fact and the DD can also take a other PRC or use a different build.
Mikal 02-14-05, 12:47 PM	Only that against the good willsave of the DD the curse will likely fail and teh DD can use greater curse too. And who said that a blindsense item is cheap? Same for the flying item. The DD can spend his money and slots on other, better items. That the DD has the better skills is fact and the DD can also take a other PRC or use a different build. Blindfold of True Darkness is cheap. And while yes, blindsight doesnt work exactly the same, the d20 philosphy is basically 'if we havent reformatted it, it's still viable'. As for flying, add it to something if you really want it. especially since if you plan on actually USING flight, you'll need to waste hard to find feats to get flyby attack
Derren S. 02-14-05, 12:51 PM	I suppose you still use 2Ed special abilities like those found in the Complete Book of X. It is a complete different mechanic, but nowhere it is said that they aren't valid anymore. And you don't need flyby attack for using flight effectivily. A composite bow with high strengh is also devestating. I consider this discussion as finished, as I have no interest in discussing with people who want to munchkin out their characters with items which are clearly not valid anymore in the new edition.
Nuntius128 02-14-05, 12:53 PM	My take is: if you can get it for free, why buy it? You can get the Blindsense item, sure, but how many healing potions, or armor enhancements could you buy with the amount of money you spent on buying Blindsense?
Mikal 02-14-05, 12:56 PM	I suppose you still use 2Ed special abilities like those found in the Complete Book of X. It is a complete different mechanic, but nowhere it is said that they aren't valid anymore. And you don't need flyby attack for using flight effectivily. A composite bow with high strengh is also devestating. I consider this discussion as finished, as I have no interest in discussing with people who want to munchkin out their characters with items which are clearly not valid anymore in the new edition. Flawed Premise. 2nd edition mechanics aren't backwards compatible, as the 3.0 rules are with 3.5, at least those which haven't been specifically changed. And as for the composite bow, the land based HD can do that just as well. And you can end it if you wish. You obviously can't defend yourself if all you can do is resort to childish name calling.
Mikal 02-14-05, 12:57 PM	My take is: if you can get it for free, why buy it? You can get the Blindsense item, sure, but how many healing potions, or armor enhancements could you buy with the amount of money you spent on buying Blindsense? because in buying it you save yourself a good 7 levels that you can use for a good prc. unless you REALLY want to spend seven more levels just to get wings and blindsense. :rolleyes:
Derren S. 02-14-05, 12:58 PM	I am just sick of people who try to bend the rules by taking items which follow an old, mechanic which isn't valid anymore. Or do you still allow your players to take items which give them DR 30/+5?
Mikal 02-14-05, 01:00 PM	I am just sick of people who try to bend the rules by taking items which follow an old, mechanic which isn't valid anymore. Or do you still allow your players to take items which give them DR 30/+5? Again, unless its been errata'd or modified and is from 3.0 it's still valid. Once again you're using a flawed example-- DR was modified heavily for 3.5 the item wasn't. At MOST rather then blindsight, it becomes blindsense.
Derren S. 02-14-05, 01:03 PM	Blindsight was changed, so all items which give blindsight have to be changed too. Its that easy.
Mikal 02-14-05, 01:06 PM	Blindsight was changed, so all items which give blindsight have to be changed too. Its that easy. Fine. it gives blindsight per 3.5 rules. which it would have ANYWAY. so whats the arguement? WotC didnt feel the need to reprint the bloody thing, so instead of whining and moaning about how the munchkins are running rampant, use a little sense when it comes to items like that? Unless you're trying to deflect that a HD LA +3 is better then a HD ECL 10 with wings, blind sense, and a little bonus HP