Elemental Savant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Elemental Savant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tonio
03-27-07, 11:05 PM I'm curious... in the description of this PrC it mentions sorcerers can take it, but usually don't (or shouldn't, something like that) because they can't get full benefit out of the feats (or something like that... basically referring to sorcerers using up a full round to cast a metamagic feat'ed spell).

But looking over the class, I see no granted metamagic feats, I see some general feat-like abilities (spell penetration and focus), but nothing that'd benefit a sorcerer less than, or differently to, a wizard. Additionally, a Wizard would lose his extra bonus feats. So it really seems to me a sorcerer would benefit even more that a wizard would, since they'd only be losing one (two in 3.5) spellcasting levels out of the 10 total Elemental Savant levels, not a whole bunch of feats in addition, like a wizard would.

Am I missing something?
runestar
03-27-07, 11:17 PM double post.
runestar
03-27-07, 11:23 PM In general, sorcs lose nothing from entering a prc since they have virtually no class features(save for familiar progression). In fact, they should multiclass into a spellcasting prc as soon as they qualify for one, since there is really little incentive for them to go straight sorc.

I am not familiar with the ES prc. However, I recall elemental sub being one of the prereq feats. Still, considering that all your energy spells automatically get converted to the chosen element, it is as good as auto-applying the feat to all your spells without increasing the cast time, so it can be construed to be as much of a boon as it is a drawback.
Tonio
03-27-07, 11:24 PM Right, for a sorcerer to use the standard energy substitution feat, it'd take a full round for a 1 action spell, but once you take the PrC, it's automatic, so that would, in fact, benefit the sorcerer (although it'd make him less versatile... but then again versatility is the wizard's thing :)).
Salla
03-28-07, 01:19 AM Well, one, the Sorc doesn't have KS: The Planes as a class skill, so that burns him double skill points there. Small, but potentially significant.

The main thing is, I think, that sorcerers have to be very careful as to what spells they pick because they get such a limited number of them. For a wizard to qualify, he just needs, say, Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, and Fireball in his spell book, even if he never prepares any of them. For a sorcerer, though, that level of redundancy can really hurt them.
Needle
03-28-07, 01:43 AM In general, sorcs lose nothing from entering a prc since they have virtually no class features(save for familiar progression). In fact, they should multiclass into a spellcasting prc as soon as they qualify for one, since there is really little incentive for them to go straight sorc.

No incentive, you mean. Their class is a blank template.

The sorcerer has some new good feats in complete mage / races of the dragon etc that lets them metamagic normally.
Demonfey
03-28-07, 02:46 AM Also, there's how long it takes a sorceror to be able to actually be applicable for the PrC (3rd level spells) compared to the wizard, and the fact that they'd lose out on two levels of spellcasting, further slowing their growth.
Needle
03-28-07, 03:23 AM I dont know.. the 6th level is a decent level to take. IIRC it increases both BaB and saves.
runestar
03-28-07, 10:25 AM True, I am usually tempted to take the 6th of wizard nonetheless, despite typically qualifying for prcs by 5th lv.:)
Onikani
03-28-07, 05:25 PM True, I am usually tempted to take the 6th of wizard nonetheless, despite typically qualifying for prcs by 5th lv.

Likewise.
:)

Even if you can enter a PrC at elvel 5, its woth staying wiz a level to get the bonus feat.
Then it seems like you should do it once more to get the spells, BAB, and saves.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tonio 03-27-07, 11:05 PM	I'm curious... in the description of this PrC it mentions sorcerers can take it, but usually don't (or shouldn't, something like that) because they can't get full benefit out of the feats (or something like that... basically referring to sorcerers using up a full round to cast a metamagic feat'ed spell). But looking over the class, I see no granted metamagic feats, I see some general feat-like abilities (spell penetration and focus), but nothing that'd benefit a sorcerer less than, or differently to, a wizard. Additionally, a Wizard would lose his extra bonus feats. So it really seems to me a sorcerer would benefit even more that a wizard would, since they'd only be losing one (two in 3.5) spellcasting levels out of the 10 total Elemental Savant levels, not a whole bunch of feats in addition, like a wizard would. Am I missing something?
runestar 03-27-07, 11:17 PM	double post.
runestar 03-27-07, 11:23 PM	In general, sorcs lose nothing from entering a prc since they have virtually no class features(save for familiar progression). In fact, they should multiclass into a spellcasting prc as soon as they qualify for one, since there is really little incentive for them to go straight sorc. I am not familiar with the ES prc. However, I recall elemental sub being one of the prereq feats. Still, considering that all your energy spells automatically get converted to the chosen element, it is as good as auto-applying the feat to all your spells without increasing the cast time, so it can be construed to be as much of a boon as it is a drawback.
Tonio 03-27-07, 11:24 PM	Right, for a sorcerer to use the standard energy substitution feat, it'd take a full round for a 1 action spell, but once you take the PrC, it's automatic, so that would, in fact, benefit the sorcerer (although it'd make him less versatile... but then again versatility is the wizard's thing :)).
Salla 03-28-07, 01:19 AM	Well, one, the Sorc doesn't have KS: The Planes as a class skill, so that burns him double skill points there. Small, but potentially significant. The main thing is, I think, that sorcerers have to be very careful as to what spells they pick because they get such a limited number of them. For a wizard to qualify, he just needs, say, Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, and Fireball in his spell book, even if he never prepares any of them. For a sorcerer, though, that level of redundancy can really hurt them.
Needle 03-28-07, 01:43 AM	In general, sorcs lose nothing from entering a prc since they have virtually no class features(save for familiar progression). In fact, they should multiclass into a spellcasting prc as soon as they qualify for one, since there is really little incentive for them to go straight sorc. No incentive, you mean. Their class is a blank template. The sorcerer has some new good feats in complete mage / races of the dragon etc that lets them metamagic normally.
Demonfey 03-28-07, 02:46 AM	Also, there's how long it takes a sorceror to be able to actually be applicable for the PrC (3rd level spells) compared to the wizard, and the fact that they'd lose out on two levels of spellcasting, further slowing their growth.
Needle 03-28-07, 03:23 AM	I dont know.. the 6th level is a decent level to take. IIRC it increases both BaB and saves.
runestar 03-28-07, 10:25 AM	True, I am usually tempted to take the 6th of wizard nonetheless, despite typically qualifying for prcs by 5th lv.:)
Onikani 03-28-07, 05:25 PM	True, I am usually tempted to take the 6th of wizard nonetheless, despite typically qualifying for prcs by 5th lv. Likewise. :) Even if you can enter a PrC at elvel 5, its woth staying wiz a level to get the bonus feat. Then it seems like you should do it once more to get the spells, BAB, and saves.