Post/Author/DateTime	Post
O_Menda 05-01-07, 05:51 PM	After some long battles in a dungeon, we manage to rescue a little girl that was captured by goblins. In the way to the town we spotted a giant going in our way (he didn't seen us yet). Because we felt that the whole group could be in danger (all members are level 2) we splitted: I (a bard) and a fighter standed there while the other four characters started to run towards the town. So we both sit in the ground, I took the lute from my pack and started to play it and sing along, just to look completely harmless to him. But the round he spotted us, he won the initiative check, charged and killed us both with his +16 to attack and cleave. Then, he looted our corpses and went away. The DM was kindly enough to cast Resurrection on us for free when the party managed to get out corpses but i still think he was too harsh because we didn't have any chance to talk with him. His answer was just "that's what a Chaotic Evil giant with a intelligence score of 6 would do". We still think that he acted more in the Chaotic Stupid side of the aligment chart. We were complete harmless to him and he could easily take anything he want without having to hit us, we just wanted to buy some time for the group. Sure that waiting here for the giant wasn't the smartest thing to do, but I still think that we should have a little chance to overcome the encounter other than running away from it, even more seeing that he could run faster than the party. What do you think?
Toloran 05-01-07, 06:30 PM	Ok, this is a point of philosophical discussion amongst DMs but here is my opinion: My job as the DM is to make and run the world you (the player) exist in. Realistically, there will be times where an enemy will be much too strong for you to defeat it in combat. Under such circumstance it is quite possible that there will be times where your only chance is the to flee. Now, as a reasonable DM I understand that forcing players to flee is not very fun but keep in mind this: Not all encounters revolve around killing something. In the situation you described, the encounter was not to kill the giant. The encounter was to avoid the giant. EDIT: Oh, and avoiding the giant doesn't always mean running away either. It also includes using skills (hide/move-silently) and illusions to trick or lure the giant away.
Blacksworddragon 05-01-07, 06:32 PM	I picture a Chaotic Evil Giant as a slavering brute who wouldn't hesitate to stomp on something smaller than itself especially since you posed no visible threat. Maybe if you and the fighter were able to make him think twice(unlikely) he might have given you a chance. The DM has to make the world believable and unfortunately... a brute is a brute( substitute giant for Brute when able).
O_Menda 05-01-07, 07:07 PM	EDIT: Oh, and avoiding the giant doesn't always mean running away either. It also includes using skills (hide/move-silently) and illusions to trick or lure the giant away. I don't think we could simply outrun him, if he spotted us he could easily have us all killed. Hide a party made of seven players, a wolf and a scared girl would be very hard. The spell's way was also undoable because we spent all the level 1 spells (our highest ones) in the dungeon. And in fact, we were looking foward to use some skills, a mix of diplomacy and bluff, to avoid the giant, but we got no chance.
Toloran 05-01-07, 07:32 PM	I don't think we could simply outrun him, if he spotted us he could easily have us all killed. Hide a party made of seven players, a wolf and a scared girl would be very hard. The spell's way was also undoable because we spent all the level 1 spells (our highest ones) in the dungeon. And in fact, we were looking foward to use some skills, a mix of diplomacy and bluff, to avoid the giant, but we got no chance. While this is partially true, you have to admit that attracting the giant to you (who hadn't noticed you or your party members yet) was probably a bad idea in general. It was simply a case where you made a bad decision because: 1) Plan hinges on general good will of the giant (ie, assuming he won't attack first and ask questions later). 2) Plan assumes you can communicate with the giant (Not everything can speak common you know) 3) That you could successfully diplomacise/bluff the giant (which isn't a smart move because if you fail he might very well attack you and you know you can't handle him in a fight).
Kouk 05-01-07, 10:08 PM	Yeah... In general I don't like to put the party up against things they won't immediately know they shouldn't fight. Now, it sounds like the rest of your party got away fine by heading straight for town so why did you stay behind? Trying to hold it off? But it didn't see you yet. Maybe it wouldn't have attacked if the girl was with you, like some Frankenstein thing, but in general you shouldn't draw any attention to yourself if you are aware that a fight would end badly. Perhaps the problem was it hinged on the metagaming of knowing what the DM was thinking, but did you get some Knowledge checks on it? Like a result of 10 would tell you "This is a giant, don't screw with it" :D Oh well, die and learn.
Empiro 05-01-07, 10:14 PM	I'd say that the fault partially lies with the DM, which I get the impression is of the "kill-everything-you-see-or-be-killed" type. The DM turned what could have been a very interesting RP encounter into one that frustrated and demoralized the PCs. The fact is, even if the Giant was CE, it doesn't mean that he's a psychopath that goes and attacks everything he sees. Oh well, I guess it's better to figure out the type of DM one is sooner rather than later.
TacoClone 05-01-07, 10:35 PM	IMO, a DM's job is to provide an interesting and fun experience for the player, and I try to apply that philosophy when I DM. With that in mind, I would have played that encounter off a little less hostily, or not at all. I mean, lv2 characters have no business having an encounter with a giant in the first place. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't think a PC shouldn't die ever, but to kill off two PCs in a random encounter is completely anti-climatic and frustrating. If a PC dies, it should serve some sort of purpose or be the PC's fault for making a very, very stupid mistake. I don't think trying to distract the giant from attacking the part of the party escorting the NPCs was a stupid thing, and I think you should have been able to have at least a few seconds to dupe the giant. Like describing a small camp of sleeping adventurers over the hill or offering him something. At such a low PC level, I'd be happy with that kind of exchange. In fact, I remember a time when a DM sent a half-dragon at my party when we were level one. We simply told it of a small town over the horizon that was mostly defenseless, which there really was one. Not that greatest of actions, but we survived physically unscathed. Now I'm just ranting. My point, the DM shouldn't have killed you so meaninglessly and anti-climatically.
MagusBlack 05-01-07, 10:35 PM	By the sound of it you should of run or hide yourself instead of making a lot of noise. On the plus side to that argument...your a bard. Which means bards exist in that world...which means the Giant, probably, knows that too. So a lone fellow: singing and playing a musical instrument in the middle of nowhere can be seen to be just as dangerous as wizard flinging his hands about and speaking in tongues. You should of thought it through first…But hey your level 1, what does a bard know at that level.
Toloran 05-01-07, 10:36 PM	I'd say that the fault partially lies with the DM, which I get the impression is of the "kill-everything-you-see-or-be-killed" type. The DM turned what could have been a very interesting RP encounter into one that frustrated and demoralized the PCs. The fact is, even if the Giant was CE, it doesn't mean that he's a psychopath that goes and attacks everything he sees. Oh well, I guess it's better to figure out the type of DM one is sooner rather than later. Thats not entirely fair to the DM since we are only getting one side of the story. While it is true that there are DMs like that, I've also DM'ed for parties with the same "Kill-everything-you-see-because-it-gives-exp" or "I'm a hero, nothing can kill me" mentalities.
Zankue 05-01-07, 11:11 PM	Although the DM did turn down a chance at an interesting RP I agree with his actions. First of all don't see this as wasting your character you saved the party from a much worse fate by sacrificing yourself, so GJ there. As for the point that you died, I see how you would be angry (I would be too) but as an earlier poster said a brute is a brute. If a random person walked into your home and started playing music I don't think that you'd say, "Hey whatcha doin?" you'd probably say something along the lines of... "Hey honey, where's my gun?" so if you were anywhere close to that things home it might see you as a threat, you may not have been the only adventurers it's ever had. I'd say that the DM made the right call on this despite how wrong it seems
Magnus_the_Mad 05-01-07, 11:50 PM	The fact is, even if the Giant was CE, it doesn't mean that he's a psychopath that goes and attacks everything he sees. Then again, maybe he is. In my games, CE IS a psychopath that goes around attacking everything he sees (ok, not all of them do, but if this alignment can't justify acting this way then which one can?).
green_yawgmoth 05-02-07, 12:41 AM	CE is basically "I do what I feel like regardless of the consequenses to anything but myself". Giants pummel things for fun and amusement. Int 6 is mild retardation. Put these together, and you've got something that pounds things for fun whenever it has the chance to. You are smaller and squishier than it. I'd say the DM ran the "encounter" exactly the way he should have. Next time, either stand and fight, or flee fast and far. You chose to sit there and sing, and you became blood pudding. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Callista 05-02-07, 08:55 AM	It was realistic to let you die; but honestly, as a DM I would have let you do your diplomacy/bluff thing. When players want to RP, it's my policy to give them the chance. That doesn't mean you'll get off scot-free; you have to admit the party was a bit stupid for attracting the giant's attention in the first place. But I think what I would've done, as a DM, would be to have the giant knock you out and capture you, intending to eat you later... that would give you a chance at escape. (We are assuming that said giant is willing to eat sentient creatures. But that's not too much of a stretch for CE giants.) Your DM was being realistic but a bit mean. I don't think he overstepped his bounds as a DM. What you know now: Your DM uses a static world. Encounters aren't going to be tailored to the party's level--that means you may have to deal with yappy little Warrior 1 goblins at level 10; or it may mean you have to talk your way out of an ancient red dragon's lair at level 2. With this style of DMing, you know that you will need to think before you act. Sometimes, getting into an encounter in the first place won't be wise--even if you had a chance of using Diplomacy to resolve it (as with the giant). Make sure you cultivate your friendships with Druids and Clerics who can solve the problem if you die. Every character is stupid once in a while (some, with low INTs, are stupid most of the time!); and every player will eventually make a mistake. This sounds like it will probably be a high-fatality game; so be prepared for that. Stock up on items, spells, and abilities which allow you to escape or survive in situations in which you are outmatched. At low levels, that means buying a warhorse (fast running speed), casting illusions or invisibility to distract the enemy, casting expeditious retreat, and always having backup healing. At high levels, it means Teleport and flight, as well as resistance to various forms of damage, contingent healing spells, and a way to prevent sickness, poison, ability damage/drain, and paralysis. At any level, it means being willing to use guerilla tactics, having allies you can depend on, and having some way to delay an enemy you're running away from--whether that's a summoned creature (or the party Paladin) to stand between you and the enemy, a Grease spell, or just good old caltrops. Basically, the DM has just told you that he won't shape the world around your characters--consider yourself warned, and good luck.
Kursk 05-02-07, 09:08 AM	In the way to the town we spotted a giant going in our way (he didn't seen us yet). Because we felt that the whole group could be in danger (all members are level 2) we splitted: I (a bard) and a fighter standed there while the other four characters started to run towards the town. Read my sig. Your DM gave you an easy out, HIDE, as the monster hadn't seen you yet. I run games where the world is "real". You might be 1st level and see an ancient red dragon flying over. If you do, you HIDE. You don't make a spectacle of yourself then wonder why you got nailed.
jorgediz 05-02-07, 12:00 PM	I'm the other martyr of the story (the fighter). I think the encounter was designed to kill someone. Even if we tried to escape the giant, we couldn't have outrun him. I was wearing scalemail myself and the bard was in studded leather so we could barely move 80' per round (hill giants run at 120'/rd if they have their armor on), plus we would eventually have to stop to regain our breath after one minute and the nearest village was 15 minutes away. We even had an armor-wearing gnome! (that's 60'/rd) Thus, escaping was not possible. We also looked for trees or some natural hiding, but there was none. We were also out of spells, cos we don't have a lot of them after all, and he knew it. Besides, we were damaged. That's why we came out with our plan to retain the giant while everybody else took advantage of it and tried to make their way back to town. The singing and picnic was purely anecdotic. We knew we were simply not able to defeat him in combat so we tried a more diplomatic approach. So we were forced into a situation where the only wise solution was to try and bought time for the others. Smashing us was overkill. I hoped he at least rewarded our heroicity and gave us some opportunity to die honorably.
Kursk 05-02-07, 12:16 PM	So we were forced into a situation where the only wise solution was to try and bought time for the others. Smashing us was overkill. I hoped he at least rewarded our heroicity and gave us some opportunity to die honorably. So hiding wasn't possible?
Toloran 05-02-07, 01:46 PM	I'm the other martyr of the story (the fighter). I think the encounter was designed to kill someone. Even if we tried to escape the giant, we couldn't have outrun him. I was wearing scalemail myself and the bard was in studded leather so we could barely move 80' per round (hill giants run at 120'/rd if they have their armor on), plus we would eventually have to stop to regain our breath after one minute and the nearest village was 15 minutes away. We even had an armor-wearing gnome! (that's 60'/rd) Thus, escaping was not possible. We also looked for trees or some natural hiding, but there was none. We were also out of spells, cos we don't have a lot of them after all, and he knew it. Besides, we were damaged. That's why we came out with our plan to retain the giant while everybody else took advantage of it and tried to make their way back to town. The singing and picnic was purely anecdotic. We knew we were simply not able to defeat him in combat so we tried a more diplomatic approach. So we were forced into a situation where the only wise solution was to try and bought time for the others. Smashing us was overkill. I hoped he at least rewarded our heroicity and gave us some opportunity to die honorably. Are you sure that was your only option? Or the only option you could think of? What spells did the bard know (and could cast)? A simple Silent Image spell cast to create a tree and then you stand inside the tree would provide a great hiding spot. Or, as others have said, just not draw its attention and hide.
Kouk 05-02-07, 03:04 PM	Play Dead? Pretend you were a serious threat? There's no way to tell what the DM would have allowed to work.
Radiun 05-02-07, 03:17 PM	Why didn't you fascinate it as they all ran, then pray for a "Me like pretty birdies" type who likes music even after you're done
Bruunwald 05-02-07, 03:27 PM	If it were me, I might have done something behind the scenes to make the encounter more manageable. For instance, reducing the giant's hit dice a bit, or, as you said, making him more open to parley, possibly working out a deal to make the two party members beholden to him, somehow. Many here will point out to you that it was a bad idea to split the party up. That by lessening your force, you nerfed yourselves, crippling your ability to deal with the giant. I think you did the right thing. Splitting the party up to allow half to speed the girl away while the other half distracted the giant was noble, and in many ways, realistic. It certainly was good for drama and story. (I am assuming you had cause to think that the giant was going to eventually spot you.) All that said, when you play D&D, you must be prepared for many (if not most) DMs to be much less flexible. It's very easy for a DM to get caught up in the notion that what is preplanned for someone like this giant, is gospel; not to be altered, not to be bent, changed, or adapted. The giant is what he is, and if that means these guys die, then so be it. As we grow older, we realize how tremendously arrogant this is. So we stuck to the program. So what? Since the players never see the DM's notes, this means nothing to them. And if the game means nothing to the players, it means nothing at all. There are going to be encounters the PCs cannot beat, and there are going to be mysteries they cannot solve, and yes, sometimes characters will die. But the players should not have to learn this from a relative TPK just to serve the unspoken vanity of a rigid DM. And it should especially never happen to teach the players a lesson. My advice: show what I've written here to your DM. I've been DMing for twenty-six years now. I have learned that managing the people in the playing group is easily the most important factor in becoming a good DM. Story is next. Rules after that. "Sticking to the plan no matter what" never even makes the list.
Empiro 05-02-07, 08:29 PM	Bruunwald, I agree with what you've wrote, and to add to it a bit, and also to respond to some of the other that feel the players got what they deserved. One of the important things that a dm needs to do is be flexible and present a fun game for all players involved. A part of this means that just because something could happen doesn't mean that it should happen. Now could a giant thats walking down a road suddently decide to attack two random strangers sitting and singing a song? Yes, it most certainly could. But similarly, a level 2 party clearing out caves of Kolbolds could suddently run into a Beholder that just happens to be tunnelling past, and that Beholder could decide to kill half the party before they get a chance to act. but obviously, that's not something a DM should do. Now is standing around the most intelligent thing the PCs could have done? Probably not. But was it so stupid as to warrant being killed? Definitely not. The fact is, when a DM pulls something like this so early in the game, it sets the tone for the entire campaign. From that point onwards, it will be that much harder for the DM to have an encounter designed for the PCs to RP through instead of direct combat.
green_yawgmoth 05-03-07, 02:24 AM	I hoped he at least rewarded our heroicity and gave us some opportunity to die honorably.Last I checked, dying to save someone else's life is pretty honorable. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Slimgauge 05-03-07, 03:00 PM	... gave us some opportunity to die honorably. I think he's refering to the fact that it sounds like the fighter never got his steel clear of the scabbard ...
jorgediz 05-03-07, 06:30 PM	I think he's refering to the fact that it sounds like the fighter never got his steel clear of the scabbard ... Yeah, that was more or less my intention, but for the sake of fairness, winning the initiative check was not the DM's fault. I spoke today to him and he explained that, although we had spotted him and heard his footsteps, the giant hadn't noticed us yet when we decided to stay and the others to run. He said we should have tried to run, as we had plenty of time of time to run before he found us. So now I'm thinking why the hell did he set up the encounter with the giant. "You hear some stomping and spot a giant in the nearby hills." "We run". "You reach the town, the giant didn't see you - end of story". I think it's twisted, he made it look as we were really in danger and very close to him.
TacoClone 05-03-07, 06:48 PM	My guess is that it was a random encounter, and one that your DM should have ruled against. A giant against low level PCs that are wounded and out of spells is an impossible fight.
danielinthewolvesden 05-04-07, 02:56 AM	Did you lose a level? :confused:
PenderGrass 05-04-07, 03:37 AM	But hey your level 1, what does a bard know at that level. What does a bard know at 1st level? Well the PHB can tell you: 1d20 + bard level + int mod. Seriously, the giant could have been there because of any number of reasons known only to your DM (i.e., part of a future adventure ["hey I remember there be giants in this area!", was told by a spy about the captive and was on his way to take it for his own, etc.). As a DM that is not afraid to kill PCs, I typically will ask "are you sure you want to do that?" If they answer yes without pausing to think, so be it. In your situation, I may have given you a chance to roll your wisdom or bardic knowledge check to know that most CE giants would rather smash people than talk to them. Regardless, it seems like you died saving your friends and the captive - so, it wasn't as unheroic as you think (and your reward was obviously being raised). :dragon: ****
Crichton 05-04-07, 03:51 AM	I think the fault lies with the DM. It specifically says in the Player's Handbook that Bards are liked by everyone, they even use an example somewhere in there talking about how monsters think it's bad luck to kill a Bard, many enjoy the music, etc, etc. I also think it was extremely obvious that the Bard was trying to work this angle since he said he pulled out his flute to not look threatening. The music should've atleast intrigued the Giant enough to listen a little before entering a full sprint to attack and cleave. Sure, the DM can do whatever he wants. But if I was DMing and a Bard in my party courageously steps up to attempt a plan like this for the good of the party, the last thing I would've done was kill them instantly. Maybe the Giant could've kicked them unconscious and held them captive until the Bard talked/snuck their way out? The possibilities are endless. And the DM using Cleave clearly tells me that his main purpose was to demoralize the players and show his power and control over the game. This was even more evident by giving these characters a Raise which should be pretty rare aswell.