Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paneki 12-27-06, 08:44 PM	I did a little search on old threads and didn't found something like this. Hope this is ok. Recently I've been having problems trying to encourage good roleplaying around the table. The party is like this: Human Rouge 5 (me) Elf Bard 8 Elf Ranger 3 Human Cleric of Heironous 4 Human Fighter 4 Human Fighter 4 half-Dragon Monk 1 Like you see we have no primary arcane spellcaster, all thanks to the half-dragon player... but thats another issue. Obviously, not all of us can make it to every session. But still at least there are 5 party members present all the time (or three) For the Bard, the ranger, the fighters and me (modesty aside) are playing our characters acording to our own aligment/stats/backstory/class etc. The problem with the cleric is that he thinks he only works for healing wounds and thats it. No Summon monster, no bless, no Bull's Strenght and in RP issues he doesn't even speak. He limits himself to "yes" "no" and "Cure XXXX wounds" But I can live with that. The half-dragon has problems being lawful. he acts really chaotic. I tried to warned him that he MUST be lawful if he wanted to play a monk. The other thing is his stats. His template, class etc really need him to have high wisdom/dex/str. Which he has, as well as some Cha. I know that writting in a piece of paper that my Character has 16 INT wont make me smarter, 16 WIS make me more wise. But at least I can "pretend" I am. He is not even trying. He has 18 WIS and he acts like he is a Half-orc Barbarian with 6 WIS. I have already tried to confront him. To sit him down and gave him tips about how to improve his character potential and Role-play experience. But his real-life 6 Wisdom score seems to get the best out of him. I just don't know what to do to improve the Roleplay. Our DM takes that in account. Every NPC acts very different acording to our actions. And personaly, I hate the monk character because of him I lost ALL my equipment. Expect maybe for my Flint... (from flint and steel), all my money, everything. Why? because he never thought before acting. (As I think his character would do) Now, I am like a Sub-DM for this campaing. I deal with out-of-session game mechanics such as creating characters, rolling hit die, help equipment customization as well as explaining to the new players how they characters work. But this time I am out of ideas for this. Please someone help me. I know, maybe I seem too rash since obviously he is the cause my character lost every single possesion he has. But even the DM is trying to make an example of him (like he did with me last campaing. do good, and you have good. Do stupid and you get toast The DM is making up for my loses at expenses of the monk (since we all think he deserves it) Just want a way for him (and future players) to be more involved into Role play. (Since we got the best jokes out of it XD) P.D.: But we don't want to kick him out. Quite honestly, we just like to see how he makes himself his life miserable playing his character.
Beowulf_R_Us 12-28-06, 01:47 AM	my immediate feeling is that he should either make a new character. If he refuses just tell him if he doesn't get his act together, you'll kick him out of the group. That is what you should do if he is just obstinate.
Salla 12-28-06, 01:48 AM	Carrot and stick. Give XP rewards for appropriate RP, and be specific as to why. Do not, however, penalize XP; it won't help.
BW0222 12-28-06, 04:13 PM	Paneki, A few observations. Many of your issues do not appear related to roleplaying. No arcane caster, cleric spell selection, stupid or impulsive actions, etc. aren't really related to roleplaying. These are more lack of experience, not understanding game mechanics, not interested in character optimization, and/or other issues. I think you need to separate these issues out. They come through the players intelligence, familiarity with the rules, and experience. Roleplaying is really how well one develops and presents their character. I'll try staying with this topic by itself. First, you have too many players. Seven is pushing it in terms of providing enough game time for players to roleplay without slowing down the game. Even if all seven don't show up (as you hinted) it is extremely hard to roleplay when you don't have consistant companions. Developing relationships, providing hints to your background, interacting with folks, etc. is a lot more difficult with revolving companions. It is also next to impossible for the DM to introduce PC specific plots if PCs aren't likely to be present. Second, there are a lot of things which the DM has to do to create a roleplaying friendly environment. * Sit down with each player (prior to starting) and ensure that each has a good, approved, character backgrounds. * Having each character provide a list of goals and awarding roleplaying XP for players working towards or meeting those goals. * Down time in game where character can interact, work on goals, etc. * Including background and/or PC specific plots, NPCs, goals, etc. into the campaign. Third, as a player, there are obviously things which you can do to help develop roleplaying. * Lead by example. Ensure that your PC is roleplaying. Have him get a girlfriend in town, introduce the group to your cousin, open a merchantile, etc. * Talk to the PCs. Ask them questions. A half dragon PC should be getting a million questions. Buy tickets to the theatre and invite them out. Hire a maid to clean their rooms. Ask them about their family. Buy them birthday presents. Forth, realize that not all players are good roleplayers. Some can't play certain alignments, stats, classes, etc. However, they may not realize it until they have tried. Sometimes you just have to suffer through things. Fifth, if you are a player... be a player. Alignment issues, roleplaying issues, class issues, etc. are not your concern. That is up to the DM to solve. If he is doing chaotic acts, the DM should warn him and (if necessary) force an alignment change. However, that isn't your call. Do the best you can with your PCs and don't get in the middle of it.
Paneki 12-28-06, 10:19 PM	BW, guess you are right. There are certain issues that probably had nothing to do with roleplay and a lot to do with game experience. My bad. However, There are some other examples that you mentioned that could actually help. Thank you ^^ Finally, I am trying to roleplay. Perhaps not to the degree to buy birthday presents (my character is pretty cheap sometimes XD) but they all seem like very good ideas. If I tried to help my monk friend it was because I wanted to save him the frustration of stoping his progresion as monk for changing alignment. Just that. I am the Sub-DM after all. P.D.: The group has narrowed down to just the Cleric, the Ranger, the monk, the bard and me (the rogue)
SneakyPetey 12-29-06, 06:08 PM	I did a little search on old threads and didn't found something like this. Hope this is ok. Recently I've been having problems trying to encourage good roleplaying around the table. The party is like this: Human Rouge 5 (me) Elf Bard 8 Elf Ranger 3 Human Cleric of Heironous 4 Human Fighter 4 Human Fighter 4 half-Dragon Monk 1 First off, as has been already mentioned, your group is too big. Like you see we have no primary arcane spellcaster, all thanks to the half-dragon player... but thats another issue. If this guy is really running around acting like he has a wisdom score of 6 do you really want him to be the primary spellcaster in the party? :confused: The half-dragon has problems being lawful. he acts really chaotic. I tried to warned him that he MUST be lawful if he wanted to play a monk. The other thing is his stats. His template, class etc really need him to have high wisdom/dex/str. Which he has, as well as some Cha. I know that writting in a piece of paper that my Character has 16 INT wont make me smarter, 16 WIS make me more wise. But at least I can "pretend" I am. He is not even trying. He has 18 WIS and he acts like he is a Half-orc Barbarian with 6 WIS. I have already tried to confront him. To sit him down and gave him tips about how to improve his character potential and Role-play experience. But his real-life 6 Wisdom score seems to get the best out of him. I just don't know what to do to improve the Roleplay. Our DM takes that in account. Every NPC acts very different acording to our actions. And personaly, I hate the monk character because of him I lost ALL my equipment. Expect maybe for my Flint... (from flint and steel), all my money, everything. Why? because he never thought before acting. (As I think his character would do) You want roleplaying? Try this: Think about what you would do if one of your so-called friends caused you to lose every possession you owned! I can tell you that *I* wouldn't be hanging around that person ever again! If this character can't behave and is causing the rest of the party grief, then why is the party allowing him to hang around? I'm not saying you should disown the player, but the character should be dragged out of town by the rest of the party members, severely beaten, and left for dead in the wilderness! :evillaugh I can't stand it when players use D&D as a vehicle to torment their friends with characters that are nothing but a pain in the arse! Now, I am like a Sub-DM for this campaing. I deal with out-of-session game mechanics such as creating characters, rolling hit die, help equipment customization as well as explaining to the new players how they characters work. But this time I am out of ideas for this. Please someone help me. This sounds like trouble to me. There is nothing wrong with mentoring new players, but you should not consider yourself a "Sub-DM" if you are, in fact, a player. It may just be a matter of semantics, but you should refer to yourself as a Newbie Mentor or something... ;) I know, maybe I seem too rash since obviously he is the cause my character lost every single possesion he has. I don't know what alignment your character is, but as a rogue he probably isn't too thrilled with losing all his stuff. Heck, *any* character isn't going to be very happy about that... So, role-play your character's anger at this retarded-monk's idiocy. :headexplo I would consider demanding that the monk find away to either return your character's equipment or reimburse your character some other way. If the monk can't deliver, he's out of the party and the player will have to create a new character to play. There is no reason one player should be allowed to torment a party with an obnoxious character like that. But even the DM is trying to make an example of him (like he did with me last campaing. do good, and you have good. Do stupid and you get toast The DM is making up for my loses at expenses of the monk (since we all think he deserves it) Just want a way for him (and future players) to be more involved into Role play. The rest of the party should be making an example out of this character too. There is no reason a party would want a goof like that in their group. You should take the lead by demanding restitution for your character's lost items. Maybe the rest of the party will jump in on your side. Have any of them been victimized? If the player is getting pressure from both his fellow players *and* the DM, he will probably mend his ways. P.D.: But we don't want to kick him out. Quite honestly, we just like to see how he makes himself his life miserable playing his character. Kicking a player out of a group too often seems to the be the knee-jerk reaction we read about on these message boards. It's good that you don't feel this way. Players like this often provide hours of entertainment for the entire group. But that is not an excuse to let this player torment the rest of the party... I hope this helps. Have good gaming! :)
BW0222 12-30-06, 01:25 PM	SneakyPetey, Try this: Think about what you would do if one of your so-called friends caused you to lose every possession you owned! Roleplaying that they of reaction isn't likely to have any good outcome. While it might be perfectly natural for the character to react this way, the player needs to take a step back and look at what the real world effects of reacting that way is. First, hostility rarely encourages good roleplaying amongst new or inexperienced players. When someone messes with your character, you mess with theirs, you know what happens next. They come back and mess with you even worse. And since they aren't good roleplayers... it likely won't be in a mature or fun way. It take extremely mature players to handle player-vs-player conflict. Otherwise, the usual result is it spills over into the real world. There is a reason they call it "player-vs-player" rather than "character-vs-character". Second, Paneki's description of the player either makes him seem really inexperienced, not attentive, stupid, rash, etc. However, nothing suggests that he intentionally messed over Paneki's PC. There isn't any point in going after this character if the player honestly can't help doing stupid things. You aren't doing to encourage him to be more careful in the future by being a jack-ass towards his character. Third, you are trying to lead by example. Teach good habits. You don't want to show the player that anytime someone makes a mistake... the correct response is to declare open season on their character. In a mature gaming group, I could have a blast roleplaying what the rogue would do. Order fine food and drink and send the bill to the half-dragon. Go to the university and offer some scholars a chance to discuss the mating habits of dragons with a real half dragon for only 10gp. Hire beggars to approach the two of you in the market and beg for coins and split them with you... in front of the half-dragon. My players would likely have a blast with that. Humor, sarcism, silly scams, etc. would be taken as ways to earn back the lost items from the other PC in the form of a "limited retaliation" - roleplaying some response to the action without actually doing what the character honestly would do. However, we aren't talking about a mature group here. Try that with the half-dragon player and I doubt he'd be laughing. He'd be looking at ways to get back at the rogue -- most likely (based on being rash, not thinking, etc.) resorting to attacking the rogue or equally campaign ending moves.
pedro2112 12-31-06, 02:18 AM	In a mature gaming group. That's the problem, the gentlemen playing the "half dragon" monk isn't a mature gamer. According to the OP's original post, that is the only significant problem identified. There is nothing one can do about that "in game." The person needs an out of game heart to heart about what they want out of the game. If it's obvious (and it probably will be) that what they want isn't what the others (including the DM) want, then the best solution is to part ways with that player.
BW0222 12-31-06, 10:37 AM	pedro2112, That's the problem, the gentlemen playing the "half dragon" monk isn't a mature gamer. According to the OP's original post, that is the only significant problem identified. Yes. I said that. However, we aren't talking about a mature group here. SneakyPetey suggested that reacting hostile towards he character might be an option for him lossing all your gear. IMO, that result won't work with non-mature players and cautioned Paneki against it. There is nothing one can do about that "in game." Of course there is. I already gave several suggestions including leading by example, not retaliating, doing things in character to encourage roleplaying, trying to get him more comfortable/experienced with adventuring/tactics, demonstrate how seriously your character takes the game, etc. I doubt that the player is actually intentionally trying to be an idiot and likely doesn't like being the center of attention. So, the problem is likely a lack of confidence, experience, not knowing better, picking up bad habits from other groups, etc. Presumably he is a friend. So, why not give him the benefit of the doubt and make an honest attempt to teach him how to be a good player? That takes patience, time, and yes having to put up with bad play. Maybe he'll never learn or maybe he will improve. But isn't it worth at least trying? At least you won't feel so bad if you have to turf him. The person needs an out of game heart to heart about what they want out of the game. If it's obvious (and it probably will be) that what they want isn't what the others (including the DM) want, then the best solution is to part ways with that player. From the sounds of the original post, this guy can't help himself. He isn't doing this deliberately. Sure, an out of game talk might help, but it's kind of like telling someone on your baseball team to stop being a lousy player. He isn't trying to be a lousy player and if you want him to improve... you are going to have to work on specific things and show him how to be a good player. Same with D&D. Paneki asked the question how to encourage people to be good role players. That's a great attitude and good to see that he is trying to help the player out.
smoker 12-31-06, 01:01 PM	The best way to encourage roleplay is provide situations that require roleplay. If the DM let's all conflict be resolved with the roll of the dice, don't expect much roleplay. If the DM cannot provide any energy to the game that excites the players -- attended a game like this at GEN CON -- then the players will just fall asleep. I almost did.
McSlugger 12-31-06, 01:23 PM	I did a little search on old threads and didn't found something like this. Hope this is ok. Recently I've been having problems trying to encourage good roleplaying around the table. The party is like this: Human Rouge 5 (me) Elf Bard 8 Elf Ranger 3 Human Cleric of Heironous 4 Human Fighter 4 Human Fighter 4 half-Dragon Monk 1 Like you see we have no primary arcane spellcaster, all thanks to the half-dragon player... but thats another issue. Obviously, not all of us can make it to every session. But still at least there are 5 party members present all the time (or three) For the Bard, the ranger, the fighters and me (modesty aside) are playing our characters acording to our own aligment/stats/backstory/class etc. The problem with the cleric is that he thinks he only works for healing wounds and thats it. No Summon monster, no bless, no Bull's Strenght and in RP issues he doesn't even speak. He limits himself to "yes" "no" and "Cure XXXX wounds" But I can live with that. The half-dragon has problems being lawful. he acts really chaotic. I tried to warned him that he MUST be lawful if he wanted to play a monk. The other thing is his stats. His template, class etc really need him to have high wisdom/dex/str. Which he has, as well as some Cha. I know that writting in a piece of paper that my Character has 16 INT wont make me smarter, 16 WIS make me more wise. But at least I can "pretend" I am. He is not even trying. He has 18 WIS and he acts like he is a Half-orc Barbarian with 6 WIS. I have already tried to confront him. To sit him down and gave him tips about how to improve his character potential and Role-play experience. But his real-life 6 Wisdom score seems to get the best out of him. I just don't know what to do to improve the Roleplay. Our DM takes that in account. Every NPC acts very different acording to our actions. And personaly, I hate the monk character because of him I lost ALL my equipment. Expect maybe for my Flint... (from flint and steel), all my money, everything. Why? because he never thought before acting. (As I think his character would do) Now, I am like a Sub-DM for this campaing. I deal with out-of-session game mechanics such as creating characters, rolling hit die, help equipment customization as well as explaining to the new players how they characters work. But this time I am out of ideas for this. Please someone help me. I know, maybe I seem too rash since obviously he is the cause my character lost every single possesion he has. But even the DM is trying to make an example of him (like he did with me last campaing. do good, and you have good. Do stupid and you get toast The DM is making up for my loses at expenses of the monk (since we all think he deserves it) Just want a way for him (and future players) to be more involved into Role play. (Since we got the best jokes out of it XD) P.D.: But we don't want to kick him out. Quite honestly, we just like to see how he makes himself his life miserable playing his character. One trick, if the DM is up for it, is to change his stats to reflect his behavior. If he is playing a low Wisdom (and everyone in the group agrees he is) then lower his wisdom. Problem solve.d
pedro2112 12-31-06, 01:52 PM	BWO, I wasn't really disagreeing with anything you posted. Perhaps if I knew the ages of the respective players and DM, it would clear things up for me.
Paneki 01-02-07, 02:38 PM	Yes, we are inmature. just stop saying it... makes me nervous n.nU I am 19 Ranger: 18 Half-dragon: 23 Bard: 20 Cleric: 20 DM: 26 I don't think The Half-dragon is being a bad player because he wants to. And I just hope I haven't make my relation with his character a: I hit you and then you hit me harder kind of thing. My character also knows that getting back at him directly isn't the solution... more sutile way is better. I am just waiting the chance. In a flashnews, I have recovered a bit. my +1 Rapier, some basic equpment as my loaded dice and a deck of cards. and yes, Thx to the Half-dragon now I have some kind of magical necklace wich I haven't figure out what it does. Thats at least something. Also now I have some kind of Rod of Fireball wich right now can only be recharged with the half-dragon's Breath weapon. I think the worst part is over now thx to all your advices. But there is a long way to go for this party to become a better roleplayers (me included of course, I need a lot of practice) Thx all
SneakyPetey 01-04-07, 06:43 PM	Roleplaying that they of reaction isn't likely to have any good outcome. While it might be perfectly natural for the character to react this way, the player needs to take a step back and look at what the real world effects of reacting that way is. Well, I respectfully disagree. I feel I must clarify my point a bit. I think I came off too harsh... The half-dragon needs to think about his real-world effects on other players. Making the other players miserable during a D&D session because they're bound to some kind of false RPG-Party-Allegiance is baaaaaaaad... First, hostility rarely encourages good roleplaying amongst new or inexperienced players. I'm going to remember this later... ;) When someone messes with your character, you mess with theirs, you know what happens next. They come back and mess with you even worse. And since they aren't good roleplayers... . Since they're not good role players it's a great time to practice! :) The other characters drag this guy out into the woods and say "That's it, you're out of the party!" The character (and probably the player too) freaks out and says "Whoa! What did I do?" At this point, the real role playing takes over and the characters (and players) talk out their problems and attitudes are adjusted. This would take a show of solidarity by the rest of the party, and some feelings may be hurt initially, but I think a scenario like this could be beneficial to all. Think about it from the half-dragon's perspective in a situation where he is told to leave the party: Physical violence is out of the question. The monk could never stand up to the rest of the party on his own. The other party members obviously agree with the rogue that the half-dragon is acting like a half-wit, so the player should come to the conclusion that there is something wrong with the way he is playing the character. I've seen this sort of this happen with players who are used to completely immature groups. The players show up to play with a more mature group and before long they find their characters at the business end of several spears and swords while getting a lesson in teamwork. It's not easy, and it doesn't always work (sometimes the immature players leave in a huff, never to return) but it's the most direct way to solve the problem. Third, you are trying to lead by example. Teach good habits. You don't want to show the player that anytime someone makes a mistake... the correct response is to declare open season on their character. Leading by example could mean that the mature player is subjected to weeks of torture at the hands of the immature player. *I* have been in that situation before and it made me miserable. Fortunately, I have no problem telling people in no uncertain terms that I have a problem with their behavior. It's harder for some than others, but it's really the best way to go. It helps to start off by saying "Nothing personal," or "You know you're my friend, but..." In a mature gaming group, I could have a blast roleplaying what the rogue would do. Order fine food and drink and send the bill to the half-dragon. Go to the university and offer some scholars a chance to discuss the mating habits of dragons with a real half dragon for only 10gp. Hire beggars to approach the two of you in the market and beg for coins and split them with you... in front of the half-dragon. My players would likely have a blast with that. Humor, sarcism, silly scams, etc. would be taken as ways to earn back the lost items from the other PC in the form of a "limited retaliation" - roleplaying some response to the action without actually doing what the character honestly would do. Remember that part I told you that I was going to remember? This is where it comes back to bite you... ;) I've heard stories of things like you mention above ruining several campaigns. "limited retaliations?" What happens next? The victim ups the anty, retaliating a little harder, and so forth. I've heard of this leading to TPKs caused by the party slaughtering itself... My idea of being more direct and confronting the problem directly is better, methinks. Of course, you go on to point this out below, but I wanted to reiterate that this shouldn't be tried unless the group is very mature... And even then it might still blow up in the DM's face! However, we aren't talking about a mature group here. Try that with the half-dragon player and I doubt he'd be laughing. He'd be looking at ways to get back at the rogue -- most likely (based on being rash, not thinking, etc.) resorting to attacking the rogue or equally campaign ending moves. Right. What you said... :)