energy substitution? [Archive] - Wizards Community

energy substitution? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
friedmad
11-07-04, 09:11 PM does anyone know what the name of the spellcaster feat is that allows the caster to change the type of energy an attack spell delivers, and which book it is in?
ThatDarnCat
11-07-04, 09:32 PM For 3.0 it's Energy Substitution and its in Tome & Blood, pg 40.

If you are playing 3.munchkin you are on your own.
Draco Strang
11-08-04, 02:32 AM Energy Substitution is such a sweet spell.....doesn't make the spell higher level or anything.

Try tome and blood.
krichaiushii
11-08-04, 05:06 AM The 3.5 version is in Dragon #325. 100% official, or so the cover says.

Not much difference, except that sonic is NOT an option.
Doug McCrae
11-08-04, 09:32 AM If you are playing 3.munchkin you are on your own.Ironic then that the 3.5 version is actually less powerful.
malaegoth
11-08-04, 10:20 AM I find it amusing that someone spewing their anti-3.5 hate would have the gall to call it more munchkin than 3.0 was.

Despite that, Energy Affinity from the miniatures handbook is pretty much the same thing, minus sonic. Technically, Energy Substitution is still there, but most DMs should recognize that Affinity was clearly printed as a replacement, but for whatever reason, they gave it a different name.
Aeromus
11-09-04, 08:58 AM The ability to cast sonic fireballs was the stupidest thing ever.
eudas
11-09-04, 11:36 AM actually i thought the ability to substitute energy types, even sonic, quite clever. the problem comes not from the feat but rather from the fact that 95% of all monsters are and items are susceptible to sonic damage, making it a no-brainer choice.

even with the new feat, w/o a choice for sonic, you can still numbers-crunch the monster database and find the next-most-uncommon resistance, and just choose that, if you want to be munchkin about it.

i don't see a problem with it either way. *shrug*

eudas
friedmad
11-09-04, 11:51 AM well, i dont consider it munchkin, because if the DM allows PCs to use energy substitution, he must also allow monsters and NPCs to use it, thus maintaining game balance. In that case, i'm not so sure i'd want my DM to allow it.
CzarGarrett
11-09-04, 12:53 PM Personally, I like the idea of a wizard who will throw several fireballs, none of which are the same damage type.

Fire, cold, electric, etc.
Thorak
11-09-04, 01:39 PM An alternative view would be the way they dealth with the alternate -kineticist variations on the Pyrokineticist. Basically, all the elements work slightly differently;

Fire: No change
Cold: -1 per die, Fort save instead of Reflex.
Electricity: -1 per die
Acid: -1 per die
Sonic: Reduced die size (d6 becomes d4, d8 becomes d6, etc), ignores hardness on unattended objects.

This means that there's a small price to using non-standard energies, but one that's offset by the utility in varying the damage type for the monster. -1 per die is great, when you can use a Frostball instead of a Fireball on that Fire Elemental.

Though I also suggest these rules be used for a feat that allows you to freely substitute damage types. A character devoted to a single element for flavor reasons should, probably, just use the standard numbers, since they don't gain the advantage of variability.
eudas
11-09-04, 03:17 PM Another way to create the feat:
1) All spells that you cast that would normally be type [x] are type [y] instead. You cannot choose to cast a normal version of the spell.

For example, if a wiz/sor takes Energy Substitution (Fire->Cold) then all fire spells (scorching ray, flame arrow, fireball, etc) now deal cold damage instead. They can't prepare a fire ball anymore... it's always a cold ball. :)

2) Allow Energy Substition, but give it a +level adjustment for the spell level.

For example, if ES gives a spell a +1 level then a energy substituted fireball would take up a 4th level spell slot instead of a 3rd level spell slot.

3) or, you could do like they're apparently going to do in complete arcane, and just take out ES(Sonic). *shrug*

eudas
friedmad
11-09-04, 03:25 PM If I were building this ability from the ground up I would make a metamagic feat - an Energy-Substituted spell would take a spell slot 2 or 3 levels higher than the 'normal' version of the spell.
Black_Kaioshin
11-11-04, 01:35 PM No more Sonics? Why am I not suprised... that's WotC for you.... their first answer to anything is altering it to screw over players, instead of simply offering more monsters with sonic resistance. Meh...
allenchan
11-11-04, 05:51 PM No more Sonics? Why am I not suprised... that's WotC for you.... their first answer to anything is altering it to screw over players, instead of simply offering more monsters with sonic resistance. Meh...

:nonono:
devinmdp
11-11-04, 05:57 PM I like that sonics were taken out. It's not, I think a resistance issue as much as a not-making-sense issue. Sonics, IMO, never really fit in the energy structure anyways.

As far as which to choose, it's not always number crunching to find the next least resisted energy type, as one poster suggested.

It is also a case of comparing how many creatures with energy resistance to your primary type also have resistance to your secondary type.

For example, many evil outsiders have immunity or resistance to fire and immunity or resistance to electricity.

In addition, you want to look at the diametric opposites for vulnerability.

For example, I think you will find that resistance to fire and cold are very common. But, I think you would be quite wize to consider an affinty to cold for your fire spells because:

1. Not a lot of creature have immunity to both, and

2. Many who do have vulnerability to the other

Devin
eudas
11-11-04, 06:07 PM No more Sonics? Why am I not suprised... that's WotC for you.... their first answer to anything is altering it to screw over players, instead of simply offering more monsters with sonic resistance. Meh...

well if you look at it from a computer science/efficiency standpoint:
you could recode the entire monsters manual and issue a giant errata... or you could change 1 feat and just put it in the latest splatbook.

which would you choose? :)

eudas
Student Of The Mind
11-11-04, 06:53 PM No more Sonics? Why am I not suprised... that's WotC for you.... their first answer to anything is altering it to screw over players, instead of simply offering more monsters with sonic resistance. Meh...

Sonic is what made it sick in the first place, because it's very hard to defend against that type of energy. Personally I'm glad they took sonic out, I am just as happy with electricity. An exploding ball of lightening is just as good, just think of the pretty colors if you threw a fireball as the same time! :D
kliate
11-11-04, 08:33 PM Well, at least they aren't giving us Energy Substitution: Force...that would just be wrong now, wouldn't it?
Student Of The Mind
11-11-04, 10:56 PM Well, at least they aren't giving us Energy Substitution: Force...that would just be wrong now, wouldn't it?

Yes that would just be wrong now...But the only real advantage would be to be able to blast incorporeal (sp? dont have my books), or ethereal enemies. :D
Lord Schpungus
11-13-04, 05:57 PM No more Sonics? Why am I not suprised... that's WotC for you.... their first answer to anything is altering it to screw over players, instead of simply offering more monsters with sonic resistance. Meh...

Quick, make up a monster that has sonic resistance for an actual reason, and not just so that a monster will have sonic resistance. Go!

See? It's hard thinking of why anything would have sonic resistance.
ShadowDragon8685
11-13-04, 06:26 PM Cloth Golem.

Created of layers and layers of thick, durable cloth, this golem is immune to sonic damage, takes 1/8th damage from ice, 1/2 from lightning, and 2x from Fire. :)

I, for one, like energy substitution. I'd make it a Metamagic feat, or just let the PCs research alternative-energy variants of spells they have.

Scintilating Sphere, anyone? (3.0 Fireball of Lightning.)

Chain Icecicles?

Firebolt!
Student Of The Mind
11-13-04, 07:12 PM Energy Substitution is one of the best feats, but having sonic as a choice is like adding negative energy or positive energy to this feat...It's a bit ridiculous and very hard to counter. Kinda like giving a knight an AK47 in medieval times, because he's going to :censored: up everything! I like energy substition, but like others have said it needs to be nerfed of "sonic". I really hope they have it in Complete Arcana, cause letting loose Lightening Storm (Meteor Storm) is always great fun...:D

Good gaming.
Black_Kaioshin
11-13-04, 11:29 PM I guess I'm alone on this, as usual... but regardless, I still enjoy sonic substitution. Its really the only trump card a pc has against extraplaner monsters. My last campaign was full of them. If not for sonically substituted fireballs, my party would be toast... I like having something that my enemies can't easily defend against. Its refreshing to actually have a weapon against a balor, for example. They resist most damage energy spells, and are outright immune to others. Is it such a big deal to have something will affectthem without getting diminshed?

Regardless, no one agrees with this. All of you seem to thing if anything offers the slightest edge to a PC, its "broken."
Yade
11-13-04, 11:53 PM actually i thought the ability to substitute energy types, even sonic, quite clever. the problem comes not from the feat but rather from the fact that 95% of all monsters are and items are susceptible to sonic damage, making it a no-brainer choice.
eudasI would normally agree except that sonic is not an energy type.
MortalPlague
11-14-04, 05:25 AM I really like the idea about swapping out d6's for d4's for sonic energy. No reason you can't have a sonic blast, it just does less damage.
The_Fan
11-14-04, 09:08 AM They tried that in the MMIII. The Knell Beetle is not just immune, sonic heals it! Same with the storm elemental. On the other hand, they made a few monsters like the Crystal Troll that were vulnerable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
friedmad 11-07-04, 09:11 PM	does anyone know what the name of the spellcaster feat is that allows the caster to change the type of energy an attack spell delivers, and which book it is in?
ThatDarnCat 11-07-04, 09:32 PM	For 3.0 it's Energy Substitution and its in Tome & Blood, pg 40. If you are playing 3.munchkin you are on your own.
Draco Strang 11-08-04, 02:32 AM	Energy Substitution is such a sweet spell.....doesn't make the spell higher level or anything. Try tome and blood.
krichaiushii 11-08-04, 05:06 AM	The 3.5 version is in Dragon #325. 100% official, or so the cover says. Not much difference, except that sonic is NOT an option.
Doug McCrae 11-08-04, 09:32 AM	If you are playing 3.munchkin you are on your own.Ironic then that the 3.5 version is actually less powerful.
malaegoth 11-08-04, 10:20 AM	I find it amusing that someone spewing their anti-3.5 hate would have the gall to call it more munchkin than 3.0 was. Despite that, Energy Affinity from the miniatures handbook is pretty much the same thing, minus sonic. Technically, Energy Substitution is still there, but most DMs should recognize that Affinity was clearly printed as a replacement, but for whatever reason, they gave it a different name.
Aeromus 11-09-04, 08:58 AM	The ability to cast sonic fireballs was the stupidest thing ever.
eudas 11-09-04, 11:36 AM	actually i thought the ability to substitute energy types, even sonic, quite clever. the problem comes not from the feat but rather from the fact that 95% of all monsters are and items are susceptible to sonic damage, making it a no-brainer choice. even with the new feat, w/o a choice for sonic, you can still numbers-crunch the monster database and find the next-most-uncommon resistance, and just choose that, if you want to be munchkin about it. i don't see a problem with it either way. shrug eudas
friedmad 11-09-04, 11:51 AM	well, i dont consider it munchkin, because if the DM allows PCs to use energy substitution, he must also allow monsters and NPCs to use it, thus maintaining game balance. In that case, i'm not so sure i'd want my DM to allow it.
CzarGarrett 11-09-04, 12:53 PM	Personally, I like the idea of a wizard who will throw several fireballs, none of which are the same damage type. Fire, cold, electric, etc.
Thorak 11-09-04, 01:39 PM	An alternative view would be the way they dealth with the alternate -kineticist variations on the Pyrokineticist. Basically, all the elements work slightly differently; Fire: No change Cold: -1 per die, Fort save instead of Reflex. Electricity: -1 per die Acid: -1 per die Sonic: Reduced die size (d6 becomes d4, d8 becomes d6, etc), ignores hardness on unattended objects. This means that there's a small price to using non-standard energies, but one that's offset by the utility in varying the damage type for the monster. -1 per die is great, when you can use a Frostball instead of a Fireball on that Fire Elemental. Though I also suggest these rules be used for a feat that allows you to freely substitute damage types. A character devoted to a single element for flavor reasons should, probably, just use the standard numbers, since they don't gain the advantage of variability.
eudas 11-09-04, 03:17 PM	Another way to create the feat: 1) All spells that you cast that would normally be type [x] are type [y] instead. You cannot choose to cast a normal version of the spell. For example, if a wiz/sor takes Energy Substitution (Fire->Cold) then all fire spells (scorching ray, flame arrow, fireball, etc) now deal cold damage instead. They can't prepare a fire ball anymore... it's always a cold ball. :) 2) Allow Energy Substition, but give it a +level adjustment for the spell level. For example, if ES gives a spell a +1 level then a energy substituted fireball would take up a 4th level spell slot instead of a 3rd level spell slot. 3) or, you could do like they're apparently going to do in complete arcane, and just take out ES(Sonic). shrug eudas
friedmad 11-09-04, 03:25 PM	If I were building this ability from the ground up I would make a metamagic feat - an Energy-Substituted spell would take a spell slot 2 or 3 levels higher than the 'normal' version of the spell.
Black_Kaioshin 11-11-04, 01:35 PM	No more Sonics? Why am I not suprised... that's WotC for you.... their first answer to anything is altering it to screw over players, instead of simply offering more monsters with sonic resistance. Meh...
allenchan 11-11-04, 05:51 PM	No more Sonics? Why am I not suprised... that's WotC for you.... their first answer to anything is altering it to screw over players, instead of simply offering more monsters with sonic resistance. Meh... :nonono:
devinmdp 11-11-04, 05:57 PM	I like that sonics were taken out. It's not, I think a resistance issue as much as a not-making-sense issue. Sonics, IMO, never really fit in the energy structure anyways. As far as which to choose, it's not always number crunching to find the next least resisted energy type, as one poster suggested. It is also a case of comparing how many creatures with energy resistance to your primary type also have resistance to your secondary type. For example, many evil outsiders have immunity or resistance to fire and immunity or resistance to electricity. In addition, you want to look at the diametric opposites for vulnerability. For example, I think you will find that resistance to fire and cold are very common. But, I think you would be quite wize to consider an affinty to cold for your fire spells because: 1. Not a lot of creature have immunity to both, and 2. Many who do have vulnerability to the other Devin
eudas 11-11-04, 06:07 PM	No more Sonics? Why am I not suprised... that's WotC for you.... their first answer to anything is altering it to screw over players, instead of simply offering more monsters with sonic resistance. Meh... well if you look at it from a computer science/efficiency standpoint: you could recode the entire monsters manual and issue a giant errata... or you could change 1 feat and just put it in the latest splatbook. which would you choose? :) eudas
Student Of The Mind 11-11-04, 06:53 PM	No more Sonics? Why am I not suprised... that's WotC for you.... their first answer to anything is altering it to screw over players, instead of simply offering more monsters with sonic resistance. Meh... Sonic is what made it sick in the first place, because it's very hard to defend against that type of energy. Personally I'm glad they took sonic out, I am just as happy with electricity. An exploding ball of lightening is just as good, just think of the pretty colors if you threw a fireball as the same time! :D
kliate 11-11-04, 08:33 PM	Well, at least they aren't giving us Energy Substitution: Force...that would just be wrong now, wouldn't it?
Student Of The Mind 11-11-04, 10:56 PM	Well, at least they aren't giving us Energy Substitution: Force...that would just be wrong now, wouldn't it? Yes that would just be wrong now...But the only real advantage would be to be able to blast incorporeal (sp? dont have my books), or ethereal enemies. :D
Lord Schpungus 11-13-04, 05:57 PM	No more Sonics? Why am I not suprised... that's WotC for you.... their first answer to anything is altering it to screw over players, instead of simply offering more monsters with sonic resistance. Meh... Quick, make up a monster that has sonic resistance for an actual reason, and not just so that a monster will have sonic resistance. Go! See? It's hard thinking of why anything would have sonic resistance.
ShadowDragon8685 11-13-04, 06:26 PM	Cloth Golem. Created of layers and layers of thick, durable cloth, this golem is immune to sonic damage, takes 1/8th damage from ice, 1/2 from lightning, and 2x from Fire. :) I, for one, like energy substitution. I'd make it a Metamagic feat, or just let the PCs research alternative-energy variants of spells they have. Scintilating Sphere, anyone? (3.0 Fireball of Lightning.) Chain Icecicles? Firebolt!
Student Of The Mind 11-13-04, 07:12 PM	Energy Substitution is one of the best feats, but having sonic as a choice is like adding negative energy or positive energy to this feat...It's a bit ridiculous and very hard to counter. Kinda like giving a knight an AK47 in medieval times, because he's going to :censored: up everything! I like energy substition, but like others have said it needs to be nerfed of "sonic". I really hope they have it in Complete Arcana, cause letting loose Lightening Storm (Meteor Storm) is always great fun...:D Good gaming.
Black_Kaioshin 11-13-04, 11:29 PM	I guess I'm alone on this, as usual... but regardless, I still enjoy sonic substitution. Its really the only trump card a pc has against extraplaner monsters. My last campaign was full of them. If not for sonically substituted fireballs, my party would be toast... I like having something that my enemies can't easily defend against. Its refreshing to actually have a weapon against a balor, for example. They resist most damage energy spells, and are outright immune to others. Is it such a big deal to have something will affectthem without getting diminshed? Regardless, no one agrees with this. All of you seem to thing if anything offers the slightest edge to a PC, its "broken."
Yade 11-13-04, 11:53 PM	actually i thought the ability to substitute energy types, even sonic, quite clever. the problem comes not from the feat but rather from the fact that 95% of all monsters are and items are susceptible to sonic damage, making it a no-brainer choice. eudasI would normally agree except that sonic is not an energy type.
MortalPlague 11-14-04, 05:25 AM	I really like the idea about swapping out d6's for d4's for sonic energy. No reason you can't have a sonic blast, it just does less damage.
The_Fan 11-14-04, 09:08 AM	They tried that in the MMIII. The Knell Beetle is not just immune, sonic heals it! Same with the storm elemental. On the other hand, they made a few monsters like the Crystal Troll that were vulnerable.