Epic Monk advice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Monk advice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nessin
03-11-05, 02:21 PM I'm drawing up a epic level Monk style character, just level 21. My problem is that I'm not all that great at creating high level characters, on top of that I haven't created all that many in epic levels. So, I was hoping somebody could offer some advice on how to create a monk type character at that level.

I'm limiting myself to just the core books and the complete series.
PlutoniumKnight
03-11-05, 09:24 PM You don't get as many benefits for bieng a monk over 20th level, you get the normal and speed increases but your unarmed damage doesn't increase. I might get 16 levels of monk a monks belt and 5 levels of kensai (cw), you get good unarmed damage, good speed, ki strike admantine, and ability to spend xp to get your weapon up to a total of +5. You could also take 11 levels in monk and get a monks belt and gauntlets of the talon (CD). You may want to throw a full bab in there. In my humble opinion you might want to do, 4 fighter, 11 monk, 1 another full bab class, 5 kensai, you get 4 attacks per round, 6 while flurrying, weapon enchanting w xp. Get monks belt gauntlets of talon, wep spec unarmed strike, improved natural attack.

It isn't very twinky but it's quite fun to use.
Vatras
03-12-05, 12:03 AM I had a monk character in my campaign for a while, till he gave up playing one. As a monk you are pretty good on the defensive side...high touch AC, good saves, immunities, SR and class abilities. About these he had no complaints, either.
But on the offensive a monk sucks (we had a barbarian and a psychic warrior to compare him with...oh yes, and the cleric). He does not hit as well as the tanks and he does not hit very hard. Unarmed attacks are at the given dice and can only be augmented by an amulet to make them +5/+5. You can use weapons, but not any good one. Unarmed he gets 6 attacks (hasted) and dealed about 120 damage if all were hits (2d8+11) and no DR came into play. The barbarian got 5 attacks for 2d6+15+1d6 for an average of 125. Doesnt look like much difference? Now we see at the attack rating, and the monk is about 9 behind the barbarian. If the monk hits well, the barbarian can allow himself PA +8 for an average of 205 damage, and if he hits barely, the monk never will. When it comes to DR, the monk is reduced to 60 damage per round and the barbarian does still 112. Since our monk player wanted to be a powerhouse for damage, he was disappointed and left the class alone after a while.
That said, do not expect to be the equal of clerics, paladins, barbarians and druids when it comes to dealing damage. If that does not bother you - and some dont like this aspect, as our player did - you will be fine.

There are now three ways you can go:
- Play the monk for fun, if I like a PrC I pick it up, if not, I go straight.
- Acquire PrCs/feats to build upon the monks strengths.
- Acquire PrCs/feats to alleviate his weaknesses.

Some PrCs to consider (CW) are:
Dervish, Drunken Master*, Kensai*, Tattooed Monk*
(*...can continue as a monk)

I would probably go Monk 7/Kensai 10/Tattooed Monk 4. The Kensais signature weapon can be his unarmed attack, and this is the easy way to get fists that are fullfledged magical weapons. The tattooes will add to my strength as the crystalmaster does for a psion. I get a BAB of 17, very good saves and various goodies.
JadeSpider9643
03-12-05, 03:37 AM If you have 21 levels to work with, you might consider throwing some of them at a racial level adjustment.
JDRoundtree
03-14-05, 02:01 PM No disrespect meant to anyone else who has posted, but I think that when the monk is played, and played well, they can be as much of a powerhouse as any other character. perhaps even more so, and especially at high levels.
I can draw on my own fairly successful experience, and at least toss out an idea or two.
By 21st level, a monk has ki strike lawful, magic, and adamantine.
At 21st level you are allowed to take Epic feats, and there is one (I forget the name) that allows you to treat your attacks as a specific material type (Cold Iron, Silver, etc.)
Now, I don't know which books you are allowed to use for this, although you probably mentioned, (sorry) but my own monk, at 21st level, has taken sanctify martial strike, and ki strike Holy (from the BoED), and used his 21st level feat to make his weapons considered silver.
Every attack he throws is a good aligned, lawful, magic, silver, adamantine, holy weapon. Usually, whatever DR you have, he has something to cut through it.

As far as tactics go, the monk's agility and incapacitating ability is your friend.
Two words:
Stunning Fist.
If you have Ki Straps (a moderatley powered item from Sword and Fist)
a 21st level monk with an 18 wisdom has a stunning fist with 29 DC
Not that bad.
And an 18 wisdom for a 21st level monk doesn't seem too impossible.
Again, I think it's how you use it.
For example, this is one of my favorite and more effective tactics (at least for me)
Stunning Fist, then improved trip.
If those attacks are successful, the oponent's weapon is on the ground, and they are prone.
They then provoke attacks of opportunity both for getting up, and for picking up their weapon.
Yes, a monk's BAB might not be as high as a fighter, or Barbarian, but you've unloaded a full attack of three attacks (five if you flurry) and two attacks of opportunity.
7 attacks, and 5 are at your highest base attack bonus with a base damage of 2-20 per hit (without even adding whatever feats, magic snacks or even your basic strength score).
Your opponent hasn't even attacked yet.
Round 2.
Standard action, Improved Trip. If successful, declare the immediate extra attack as a stunning fist (you have it 21 times a day). Then use a move action to extract yourself from the area while your opponent, again, does nothing.
Round 3
Flying kick (Complete Warrior)
full base attack bonus, +2 for charge, + str. + X for amulet of mighty fists.
Damage is 2-20, +1-12 (the feat) + str, magic, etc.
Good chance to hit and do good damage.
Having been stunned and tripped the round before, your opponent has to take 2 move actions both to get up and to pick up their weapon, both of which provoke attacks of opportunity.
Even on a charge round, you're attacking 3 times at your highest BAB.
The penalty to your AC is even offset by the fact that your opponent is to busy whimpering in confusion and trying to pick up his dropped sword.
Round 4
Flurry of Blows
5 attacks
3 at your highest BAB
1st attack: Improved Sunder (ki strike adamantine)
2nd attack: Improved trip,
3rd attack: STUNNING FIST (note the theme)
4th and 5th: Whatever floats your boat

You've attacked this opponent almost 20 times at this point, and they haven't touched you.
Also, you could, on any round where they are stunned move yourself almost 100 feet away with a single move action.
If they pull out a bow, ready dimension door to occur when they fire (a standard action that takes place before the action, but does not prevent the action that triggers it) and appear next to them.
They have now fired a missile weapon in a threatened area.
Improved Trip
Followup attack: Sunder the #$$%$$ing bow.

Lather, rinse, repeat...always repeat - Homer J. Simpson

I see the point that others have made about more powerful combatants.
Honestly, a monk cannot go toe to toe with a 20th level barbarian or a 20th level fighter, but that's because they are not meant to!
A Barbarian with a +5 keen shocking burst great axe is a bad mo-fo, but if you stun him, and then use a move action to pick up his weapon (provoking no AoOs from a stunned character) and then drop it into your bag of holding, he's now a 20th level barbarian with a masterwork swiss army knife.
Also, none of the strategy above relied on anything but feats, skills, and class levels. Even the ki straps and the amulet of mighty fists were there to enhance powers, not grant them.
Yes, they have to fail saves against stunning fist, yes they have to loose the opposed trip check, but even a 20th level fighter with weapon focus, and a +5 sword and a belt of giant strength can still roll a 1.
The dice giveth, and they taketh away.
I think one of the monk's greatest strengths is that most of what you can do cannot be taken from you by a disarm check or a good rogue.
The challenge is thinking through the ability balance of the monk so that you use those skills to the utmost.
I took enough low level beatings (that without a fighter at my side I wouldn't have gotten out of) to learn that.
Sorry for the rant, all, hope it wasn't disrespectful, and hope it helps.

JD

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nessin 03-11-05, 02:21 PM	I'm drawing up a epic level Monk style character, just level 21. My problem is that I'm not all that great at creating high level characters, on top of that I haven't created all that many in epic levels. So, I was hoping somebody could offer some advice on how to create a monk type character at that level. I'm limiting myself to just the core books and the complete series.
PlutoniumKnight 03-11-05, 09:24 PM	You don't get as many benefits for bieng a monk over 20th level, you get the normal and speed increases but your unarmed damage doesn't increase. I might get 16 levels of monk a monks belt and 5 levels of kensai (cw), you get good unarmed damage, good speed, ki strike admantine, and ability to spend xp to get your weapon up to a total of +5. You could also take 11 levels in monk and get a monks belt and gauntlets of the talon (CD). You may want to throw a full bab in there. In my humble opinion you might want to do, 4 fighter, 11 monk, 1 another full bab class, 5 kensai, you get 4 attacks per round, 6 while flurrying, weapon enchanting w xp. Get monks belt gauntlets of talon, wep spec unarmed strike, improved natural attack. It isn't very twinky but it's quite fun to use.
Vatras 03-12-05, 12:03 AM	I had a monk character in my campaign for a while, till he gave up playing one. As a monk you are pretty good on the defensive side...high touch AC, good saves, immunities, SR and class abilities. About these he had no complaints, either. But on the offensive a monk sucks (we had a barbarian and a psychic warrior to compare him with...oh yes, and the cleric). He does not hit as well as the tanks and he does not hit very hard. Unarmed attacks are at the given dice and can only be augmented by an amulet to make them +5/+5. You can use weapons, but not any good one. Unarmed he gets 6 attacks (hasted) and dealed about 120 damage if all were hits (2d8+11) and no DR came into play. The barbarian got 5 attacks for 2d6+15+1d6 for an average of 125. Doesnt look like much difference? Now we see at the attack rating, and the monk is about 9 behind the barbarian. If the monk hits well, the barbarian can allow himself PA +8 for an average of 205 damage, and if he hits barely, the monk never will. When it comes to DR, the monk is reduced to 60 damage per round and the barbarian does still 112. Since our monk player wanted to be a powerhouse for damage, he was disappointed and left the class alone after a while. That said, do not expect to be the equal of clerics, paladins, barbarians and druids when it comes to dealing damage. If that does not bother you - and some dont like this aspect, as our player did - you will be fine. There are now three ways you can go: - Play the monk for fun, if I like a PrC I pick it up, if not, I go straight. - Acquire PrCs/feats to build upon the monks strengths. - Acquire PrCs/feats to alleviate his weaknesses. Some PrCs to consider (CW) are: Dervish, Drunken Master, Kensai, Tattooed Monk* (*...can continue as a monk) I would probably go Monk 7/Kensai 10/Tattooed Monk 4. The Kensais signature weapon can be his unarmed attack, and this is the easy way to get fists that are fullfledged magical weapons. The tattooes will add to my strength as the crystalmaster does for a psion. I get a BAB of 17, very good saves and various goodies.
JadeSpider9643 03-12-05, 03:37 AM	If you have 21 levels to work with, you might consider throwing some of them at a racial level adjustment.
JDRoundtree 03-14-05, 02:01 PM	No disrespect meant to anyone else who has posted, but I think that when the monk is played, and played well, they can be as much of a powerhouse as any other character. perhaps even more so, and especially at high levels. I can draw on my own fairly successful experience, and at least toss out an idea or two. By 21st level, a monk has ki strike lawful, magic, and adamantine. At 21st level you are allowed to take Epic feats, and there is one (I forget the name) that allows you to treat your attacks as a specific material type (Cold Iron, Silver, etc.) Now, I don't know which books you are allowed to use for this, although you probably mentioned, (sorry) but my own monk, at 21st level, has taken sanctify martial strike, and ki strike Holy (from the BoED), and used his 21st level feat to make his weapons considered silver. Every attack he throws is a good aligned, lawful, magic, silver, adamantine, holy weapon. Usually, whatever DR you have, he has something to cut through it. As far as tactics go, the monk's agility and incapacitating ability is your friend. Two words: Stunning Fist. If you have Ki Straps (a moderatley powered item from Sword and Fist) a 21st level monk with an 18 wisdom has a stunning fist with 29 DC Not that bad. And an 18 wisdom for a 21st level monk doesn't seem too impossible. Again, I think it's how you use it. For example, this is one of my favorite and more effective tactics (at least for me) Stunning Fist, then improved trip. If those attacks are successful, the oponent's weapon is on the ground, and they are prone. They then provoke attacks of opportunity both for getting up, and for picking up their weapon. Yes, a monk's BAB might not be as high as a fighter, or Barbarian, but you've unloaded a full attack of three attacks (five if you flurry) and two attacks of opportunity. 7 attacks, and 5 are at your highest base attack bonus with a base damage of 2-20 per hit (without even adding whatever feats, magic snacks or even your basic strength score). Your opponent hasn't even attacked yet. Round 2. Standard action, Improved Trip. If successful, declare the immediate extra attack as a stunning fist (you have it 21 times a day). Then use a move action to extract yourself from the area while your opponent, again, does nothing. Round 3 Flying kick (Complete Warrior) full base attack bonus, +2 for charge, + str. + X for amulet of mighty fists. Damage is 2-20, +1-12 (the feat) + str, magic, etc. Good chance to hit and do good damage. Having been stunned and tripped the round before, your opponent has to take 2 move actions both to get up and to pick up their weapon, both of which provoke attacks of opportunity. Even on a charge round, you're attacking 3 times at your highest BAB. The penalty to your AC is even offset by the fact that your opponent is to busy whimpering in confusion and trying to pick up his dropped sword. Round 4 Flurry of Blows 5 attacks 3 at your highest BAB 1st attack: Improved Sunder (ki strike adamantine) 2nd attack: Improved trip, 3rd attack: STUNNING FIST (note the theme) 4th and 5th: Whatever floats your boat You've attacked this opponent almost 20 times at this point, and they haven't touched you. Also, you could, on any round where they are stunned move yourself almost 100 feet away with a single move action. If they pull out a bow, ready dimension door to occur when they fire (a standard action that takes place before the action, but does not prevent the action that triggers it) and appear next to them. They have now fired a missile weapon in a threatened area. Improved Trip Followup attack: Sunder the #$$%$$ing bow. Lather, rinse, repeat...always repeat - Homer J. Simpson I see the point that others have made about more powerful combatants. Honestly, a monk cannot go toe to toe with a 20th level barbarian or a 20th level fighter, but that's because they are not meant to! A Barbarian with a +5 keen shocking burst great axe is a bad mo-fo, but if you stun him, and then use a move action to pick up his weapon (provoking no AoOs from a stunned character) and then drop it into your bag of holding, he's now a 20th level barbarian with a masterwork swiss army knife. Also, none of the strategy above relied on anything but feats, skills, and class levels. Even the ki straps and the amulet of mighty fists were there to enhance powers, not grant them. Yes, they have to fail saves against stunning fist, yes they have to loose the opposed trip check, but even a 20th level fighter with weapon focus, and a +5 sword and a belt of giant strength can still roll a 1. The dice giveth, and they taketh away. I think one of the monk's greatest strengths is that most of what you can do cannot be taken from you by a disarm check or a good rogue. The challenge is thinking through the ability balance of the monk so that you use those skills to the utmost. I took enough low level beatings (that without a fighter at my side I wouldn't have gotten out of) to learn that. Sorry for the rant, all, hope it wasn't disrespectful, and hope it helps. JD