Epic Play and skillful frustration [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Play and skillful frustration [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lana "Silvertongue"
02-26-05, 02:03 PM I am the highest level [by some 4,000 exp] character in a fluid group of 4 to 6 characters. I achieved level 20 first, followed closely by the two psionic characters in the party. I am the parties rogue. We have reached epic play, by earning it... from level 1. But it seems that my rogue is steadily loosing her abilities to combat on an equal footing because she doesn't match the firepower of her PsyWar or two levels lower than her Barbarian and Ranger... she can't be as versitile as the psion and archwizard. It feels like her only purpose in the group is to be a bloody packmule and information broker. But even then, because we play in silverymoon [FR] and everyone has multiple group associations besides me, she seems to be lackluster even in that aspect. {Psion has access to spellguards of power because it helps his 'I am a mage' chirade, Archmage studied under the blackcloak, the barbarian is a merchant of great renown, Archer is famous for killing dragons... PsyWar is the Psions bodyguard and zelot in that aspect of his personality} An all have these great plans for their characters future, while I am just along for the ride.

How do I give her a bit more finesse, making her a more worthwhile character to the party. We are about to make an assult on demons in a area called Hellgate keep. Its frustrating to tears that my sole purpose seems to be find ways for them to kill stuff, then sell the loot. I, on average, don't do 1/4th of the damage that any single person in the rest of the party can do. It was especially hard when you have a very high hide/move silently that seems to be a moot point now that EVERYTHING has tremorsense or Blindsight or cannot be snuck attacked.

Its become a very unhappy situation for me because this is everyones favorite campaign because this is everyones favorite characters because their characters are absolutly amazing, while mine isn't.
Callista
02-26-05, 05:14 PM Hmm... Well, rogues don't get the same BAB as a fighter, etc., so maybe that's part of your problem. After level 20, there's not too much for your rogue to gain in the way of special abilities, so reaching epic levels kind of nerfs your Rogue's power.

Why not try multiclassing? By now, you will probably have the requirements for any number of PrCs; and since the rogue's main strengths are mobility and versatility, the more abilities you have, the better; and a PrC which adds things to the character which you can use should work nicely. Full BAB progreession would be a bonus, too.

Magic items are a good idea. You can augment your power with them just as well as with abilities.

Also try the Epic level board, and maybe Optimization. I'm sure they have epic Rogue builds which you can adapt to fit your needs.
Vatras
02-26-05, 10:55 PM Rogues suck at melee in epic levels and your stabbing in the back is often useless.
Get a PrC which can help you...have a look at the Divine Crusader for example. Since you are already 20, there is no way to get more BAB to bolster your melee :(
J.B.
02-26-05, 11:47 PM Try the "Void Incarnate" prestige class. It's an epic class on the DnD website. Although it hasn't been updated to 3.5 edition, it easily could be. It gives you cool abilities along a "nonexistence" theme. Meaning opponents forget your there (so you can sneak attack them), you gain permanent "Mind Blank" (as the spell), permanent "Freedom of Movement" (as the spell), and abilites like "Mettle" & "Improved Evasion".
ShadowDragon8685
02-27-05, 12:32 AM First: Obtain a Vorpal Weapon of Brilliant Energy. All creatures that have anatomies but are for some reason, mostly Fortification armor, and thus immune to both crits and sneak, you can now say "Nothin!" to 'em, as you sneak them for your ungodly damage. And, on a 20, have a chance to lop their heads off. Full stop.

Second: If the party is being jerks to you - treating you as a support type, and no longer a party member - then start being jerks to them. I'm willing to bet NONE of them have a good Sense Motive, and you have the money and stuff to make yourself immune to psionic and magical truth detection and stuff. Start skimming off the top. Put your character's charisma-based resources, if any, to good use. They're Epic. That's nice. You can command ARMIES. You can get lower-level adventurers to your beck and call. Put out feelers about high-leveled magical stuff you might like, and then hire other adventurers to gather them for you. Or go do a few of the adventures you would've done as a party about 10 levels ago solo. Nothing feels better than showing up and rolling a few obviously bad guys with overwhelming firepower.

Seriously, I know the feeling about being frustrated to tears by uselessness. Ask the DM to start Epic-izing Rogues, so that you can stay level with everyone else. Invent Epic feats that let you perform sneak attacks on monsters without anatomy, or Epic feats that let you walk so silently you make no vibration at all.
Xanthia
02-27-05, 02:02 AM Epic Bluff is pretty pimp. Get good enough, and you can talk your way out of everything.

Lingering Damage is good, combined with Sneak Attack of Oppurtunity and Spellcasting Harrier, you can slay Mages quitye effectively.

Void Incarnate is the BEST Epic Prestige class I've EVER seen. Imroved Mettle of Fortitude and Will? A free sneak attack every round? Ignore force effects? Sign me up!
ShadowDragon8685
02-27-05, 03:39 AM Another thing you can do is arrange for a dungeon adventure, and sneak through it, planting traps with your ungodly DC. Make them fiendish traps, make them deadly traps.

And then see how far they get without your roguely support. :)
weasel fierce
02-27-05, 09:26 PM I'd talk to the DM and ask about how he may need to balance his encounters and adventures a little, to make things more interesting for everyone involved
was_fired
02-27-05, 09:47 PM Get a ring of blink. Blindsense does nothing against this since your on another plane. Then get a brilliant energy bow since if the creature can't be hurt by brilliant energy sneak attack sucks anyways. Then remind yourself that your an epic rogue and you should have your level + 3 ranks in use magic device. Every wand and staff in the game works for you 95% of the time. Your epic, the world is your oyster so long as you know how to play your character, which you ought to know how to do since you have been playing for a long time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lana "Silvertongue" 02-26-05, 02:03 PM	I am the highest level [by some 4,000 exp] character in a fluid group of 4 to 6 characters. I achieved level 20 first, followed closely by the two psionic characters in the party. I am the parties rogue. We have reached epic play, by earning it... from level 1. But it seems that my rogue is steadily loosing her abilities to combat on an equal footing because she doesn't match the firepower of her PsyWar or two levels lower than her Barbarian and Ranger... she can't be as versitile as the psion and archwizard. It feels like her only purpose in the group is to be a bloody packmule and information broker. But even then, because we play in silverymoon [FR] and everyone has multiple group associations besides me, she seems to be lackluster even in that aspect. {Psion has access to spellguards of power because it helps his 'I am a mage' chirade, Archmage studied under the blackcloak, the barbarian is a merchant of great renown, Archer is famous for killing dragons... PsyWar is the Psions bodyguard and zelot in that aspect of his personality} An all have these great plans for their characters future, while I am just along for the ride. How do I give her a bit more finesse, making her a more worthwhile character to the party. We are about to make an assult on demons in a area called Hellgate keep. Its frustrating to tears that my sole purpose seems to be find ways for them to kill stuff, then sell the loot. I, on average, don't do 1/4th of the damage that any single person in the rest of the party can do. It was especially hard when you have a very high hide/move silently that seems to be a moot point now that EVERYTHING has tremorsense or Blindsight or cannot be snuck attacked. Its become a very unhappy situation for me because this is everyones favorite campaign because this is everyones favorite characters because their characters are absolutly amazing, while mine isn't.
Callista 02-26-05, 05:14 PM	Hmm... Well, rogues don't get the same BAB as a fighter, etc., so maybe that's part of your problem. After level 20, there's not too much for your rogue to gain in the way of special abilities, so reaching epic levels kind of nerfs your Rogue's power. Why not try multiclassing? By now, you will probably have the requirements for any number of PrCs; and since the rogue's main strengths are mobility and versatility, the more abilities you have, the better; and a PrC which adds things to the character which you can use should work nicely. Full BAB progreession would be a bonus, too. Magic items are a good idea. You can augment your power with them just as well as with abilities. Also try the Epic level board, and maybe Optimization. I'm sure they have epic Rogue builds which you can adapt to fit your needs.
Vatras 02-26-05, 10:55 PM	Rogues suck at melee in epic levels and your stabbing in the back is often useless. Get a PrC which can help you...have a look at the Divine Crusader for example. Since you are already 20, there is no way to get more BAB to bolster your melee :(
J.B. 02-26-05, 11:47 PM	Try the "Void Incarnate" prestige class. It's an epic class on the DnD website. Although it hasn't been updated to 3.5 edition, it easily could be. It gives you cool abilities along a "nonexistence" theme. Meaning opponents forget your there (so you can sneak attack them), you gain permanent "Mind Blank" (as the spell), permanent "Freedom of Movement" (as the spell), and abilites like "Mettle" & "Improved Evasion".
ShadowDragon8685 02-27-05, 12:32 AM	First: Obtain a Vorpal Weapon of Brilliant Energy. All creatures that have anatomies but are for some reason, mostly Fortification armor, and thus immune to both crits and sneak, you can now say "Nothin!" to 'em, as you sneak them for your ungodly damage. And, on a 20, have a chance to lop their heads off. Full stop. Second: If the party is being jerks to you - treating you as a support type, and no longer a party member - then start being jerks to them. I'm willing to bet NONE of them have a good Sense Motive, and you have the money and stuff to make yourself immune to psionic and magical truth detection and stuff. Start skimming off the top. Put your character's charisma-based resources, if any, to good use. They're Epic. That's nice. You can command ARMIES. You can get lower-level adventurers to your beck and call. Put out feelers about high-leveled magical stuff you might like, and then hire other adventurers to gather them for you. Or go do a few of the adventures you would've done as a party about 10 levels ago solo. Nothing feels better than showing up and rolling a few obviously bad guys with overwhelming firepower. Seriously, I know the feeling about being frustrated to tears by uselessness. Ask the DM to start Epic-izing Rogues, so that you can stay level with everyone else. Invent Epic feats that let you perform sneak attacks on monsters without anatomy, or Epic feats that let you walk so silently you make no vibration at all.
Xanthia 02-27-05, 02:02 AM	Epic Bluff is pretty pimp. Get good enough, and you can talk your way out of everything. Lingering Damage is good, combined with Sneak Attack of Oppurtunity and Spellcasting Harrier, you can slay Mages quitye effectively. Void Incarnate is the BEST Epic Prestige class I've EVER seen. Imroved Mettle of Fortitude and Will? A free sneak attack every round? Ignore force effects? Sign me up!
ShadowDragon8685 02-27-05, 03:39 AM	Another thing you can do is arrange for a dungeon adventure, and sneak through it, planting traps with your ungodly DC. Make them fiendish traps, make them deadly traps. And then see how far they get without your roguely support. :)
weasel fierce 02-27-05, 09:26 PM	I'd talk to the DM and ask about how he may need to balance his encounters and adventures a little, to make things more interesting for everyone involved
was_fired 02-27-05, 09:47 PM	Get a ring of blink. Blindsense does nothing against this since your on another plane. Then get a brilliant energy bow since if the creature can't be hurt by brilliant energy sneak attack sucks anyways. Then remind yourself that your an epic rogue and you should have your level + 3 ranks in use magic device. Every wand and staff in the game works for you 95% of the time. Your epic, the world is your oyster so long as you know how to play your character, which you ought to know how to do since you have been playing for a long time.