Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kimokeo 06-19-07, 08:48 AM	I prefer playing wizards over any other class. As such, I strive for differences between each wizard - but my purchases are almost always the same. So, I'd like to see if it's me or every wizard player that shops the same way. So, I am asking the pureblood wizard players to equip their 5th level wizard. The DMG has 9,000 gp. Using the rule of 'no single purchase over 25%' allowed (that's 2,250gp), how will you spend your money? Use only the DMG and the PHB for purchases. Figure a wizard with S12 D12 C14 I16 W10 Ch10 Also, what two spells of 3rd level will you pick?
runestar 06-19-07, 09:18 AM	I will skip the obligatory starting eq like monk's outfit, bedroll, ink etc... Are you allowed to craft your own gear? Such as scrolls, wands and wondrous items? At the moment, I will rely on mage armour and wait until I have enough gold to buy a +1 twillight mithril chainshirt. I will probably get a mithral buckler+1(2015gp), wands of protection from evil(750gp), wand of detect magic(375gp), everburning torch(110gp), some misc scrolls, and some towards scribing new spells in my spellbook. (This is why I like the collegiate wizard feat so). If the dm allows partially charged wands, perhaps wands of scorching ray and/or web (with 15-20 charges to lower the price). As for 3rd lv spells, I will likely choose fireball/haste and either dispel magic/fly.
DrMorganes 06-19-07, 10:56 AM	If it were me, I'd get with the rest of the players and see what their characters will be able to do and what equipment they will have. Mage Armor is still your best bet for protection for a few more levels, though if you're worried about it you have enough for a couple of +1 items (e.g., a +1 mithral buckler, Amulet of Natural Armor, Cloak of Protection, et. al.). Purchasing scrolls to pad your spellbook and offer some quick utility is always a good idea. Ditto for wands. Take a look at what you can do, what your party can do, and aim for a few scrolls and/or wands to fill the gaps. Definitely check with your DM to see if partially-charged wands are OK. Let's face it, using Knock all the time will only serve to alienate the party rogue (and waste your spell slots!) - but even the rogue will agree that it's handy to have a charge or two available to get past that really tough lock in a hurry! Your Level 3 spell selection is going to depend a lot on your role within the party. If your group is melee-heavy, buff and debuff spells like Haste and Slow will likely do far more good that an area-effect damage spell like Fireball. (Unlike most CRPGs, tabletop rules do not grant immunity to your spells to party members...) Invisibility and Fly make for a nasty combination however you look at it - especially when used in conjunction with said buff spells and the odd Summon Monster.
maharai23 06-19-07, 11:46 AM	I prefer playing wizards over any other class. As such, I strive for differences between each wizard - but my purchases are almost always the same. So, I'd like to see if it's me or every wizard player that shops the same way. So, I am asking the pureblood wizard players to equip their 5th level wizard. The DMG has 9,000 gp. Using the rule of 'no single purchase over 25%' allowed (that's 2,250gp), how will you spend your money? Use only the DMG and the PHB for purchases. Figure a wizard with S12 D12 C14 I16 W10 Ch10 Also, what two spells of 3rd level will you pick? I'm assuming an evoker, barred schools Necromancy and Enchantment. Item sets: Option 1: Spells - Fireball, Lightning Bolt Hat of Disguise - 1800 gp Pearl of power, 1st level spell - 1,000 gp Heward's handy haversack - 2,000 gp Scrolls - pre-scribed into spellbook - 3,000 gp - Blink 375 - Fly 375 - Major Image 375 - Protection from Energy 375 - Explosive Runes 375 - Phantom Steed 375 - tongues 375 - Water Breathing 375 Cure light wounds Potions (10) 500 gp Remaining 700 gp on mundane items (MW skill kits, Basic Adventuring Equipment, etc) and liquid wealth Option 2: Spells - Daylight, Invisibility Sphere Heward's handy haversack 2000 gp - works well for low str Ring of Feather falling - 2200 gp Scrolls - scribed in - 2250 gp Fly Fireball Slow Wind Wall Haste Major Image Scrolls - not scribed - 2100 gp Dimension Door globe of invulnerability, lesser polymorph (At a CL check of 8 to cast off the scroll, you only need a 3 on the die to pass. Good enough for an emergency boost when needed.) Remaining 450 gp - B.A.E. and liquid wealth. Hope it provided ideas. These present two very different casters. One, is a battleboat. Designed around offense and being a damage cow. The other... still an evoker, is a tactician, a person who controls the battle, and has a few reserve tricks up his sleeve for the rough stuff... things like wind wall and invisibility protect the party while they do what they do, and, in a pinch, there's still that fireball I memorized.
Ace_of_time 06-19-07, 11:20 PM	magic bedroll, 500 gps, doubles healing for 8 hours rest.
Magrus 06-20-07, 10:02 AM	I am making a Necromancer at the moment, 5th level. Here are two items I grabbed that you might be interested in: Hewards Fortifying Bedroll: 1 hour of sleep = 8 hours sleep for all purposes. Spells cast in last 8 hours still count against those able to be prepared. 3,000 gp Quill of Scribing: 1,800 gp; Scribes scrolls all on its own. Priceless for a wizard that likes to keep utility scrolls and still get his adventuring on in the day time. I also use the spellbook rules in Complete Arcane to beef up my spellbook a bit. Even if the DM is kind enough to not attack my spellbook, it just makes sense to me to spend money keeping it safe. Without one, I am essentially a commoner, so for an adventuring wizard who has yet to gain access to being able to afford using Teleport 2/day with ease...that first spellbook or two should be protected as they go with the Wizard on adventures. I just went with a steel cover, bone pages. The bone pages are nice, and they fit with the Necromancy flavor thing. Slip case, it ensures that a sword blow won't thrash my spellbook and gives me a round to kill whomever might be attempting to ruin it.
Father Dale 06-20-07, 10:24 AM	Handy Haversack 2,000gp Cloak (or Vest) of Resistance +1 1,000gp Ring of Protection +1 2,000gp pearl of power (1st level) 1,000gp remaining 3,000gp on scrolls and potions and mundane gear
Angerland 06-20-07, 10:37 AM	Hewards bedroll is nice but remember it works once every 48 hours. Pearl of power for certain. amulet of Natural armor when you can, cloak of resistance is always handy too. 3rd level spells really depend on what spells you already know and what you find your self doing most for the party (battlefield control, buffing, etc)
RobbyPants 06-20-07, 11:17 AM	As for 3rd lv spells, I will likely choose fireball/haste and either dispel magic/fly. Back in 3.0, these were almost always my first four picked 3rd level spells. Haste is still a good spell, but for different reasosn now. Two other third level spells I didn't see mentioned: Hold Person Suggestion Both are great Will save spells. If you're up against a tough fighter-type, they could be a lot nicer than your typical fireball spells. Either one can be a great fight ender. Failing that, they can do wonders to temporarily cancel out the tough guy, while you focus on the other baddies. :)
Kimokeo 06-20-07, 02:18 PM	Well, from what I can see, I don't shop like other people playing wizards. So, I guess I'm odd. I will spend about 80-90% of my gold on scrolls, that I then scribe into my spellbook. I am heavily dependent upon my own spells cast and I like a large variety of spells to use each day. I find, each game I play, that when I memorize my spells and mix them up, the game becomes more fun for me. Instead of the DM waiting for my standard list of 2 Magic Missiles, Mage Armor, Scorching Ray, Invisibility, and Fireball, the DM knows I have several other spells in my book for each level. The next day, I may have Orb of Acid and Sleep, Flaming Sphere and Alter Self, and Lightning Bolt. In a campaign, I like diversity. So, my spellbook is diversified - every mage I play is like this. I have a few magic trinkets, headband of intellect, the pearls of power. Those increase my spells usable per day. Anything else just isn't wizard-like.
Merestil Haye 06-20-07, 03:03 PM	Scrolls - pre-scribed into spellbook - 3,000 gp - Blink 375 - Fly 375 - Major Image 375 - Protection from Energy 375 - Explosive Runes 375 - Phantom Steed 375 - tongues 375 - Water Breathing 375The cost of scribing a scroll into your spellbook is equal to the cost of the scroll plus the cost of the ink for the scribing priced at 100*spell level. Total cost for pre-scribed scrolls = 5,400gp. You probably need to shave something somewhere. I'd probably spend about 3k on spells, but wouldn't focus entirely on 3rd level spells to do so. I'd look for a Ring of Protection +1 (Deflection being the most cost-effective bonus to AC that applies against all attacks all the time) and a Hewards Handy Haversack if the character is physically weak. A selection of healing potions (up to 5) and a wand of Enlarge Person @ CL1 leaves me with 1,000gp to spend on other stuff including basic adventuring gear (say 10gp), a weapon, maybe one scroll of a 4th level spell (Polymorph or Evards Black Tentacles) and the rest as loose change. My 3rd level spells are likely to be Slow and Dispel Magic. Alternatives include Displacement, Haste or Fly. I'd make sure that I had a Darkvision in my second level spell choices, so I am not dependent on light for exploring caverns or taking a night watch.
Ace_of_time 06-20-07, 08:42 PM	What about those rings that increase spells per day?
ratarang 06-20-07, 11:30 PM	Well, the cheapest slot doubler (ring of wizardry I) costs 20000 gp. Spell Storing, Minor costs 18000. Are there cheaper alternatives?
maharai23 06-21-07, 03:38 AM	Well, from what I can see, I don't shop like other people playing wizards. So, I guess I'm odd. I will spend about 80-90% of my gold on scrolls, that I then scribe into my spellbook. I am heavily dependent upon my own spells cast and I like a large variety of spells to use each day. I find, each game I play, that when I memorize my spells and mix them up, the game becomes more fun for me. Instead of the DM waiting for my standard list of 2 Magic Missiles, Mage Armor, Scorching Ray, Invisibility, and Fireball, the DM knows I have several other spells in my book for each level. The next day, I may have Orb of Acid and Sleep, Flaming Sphere and Alter Self, and Lightning Bolt. In a campaign, I like diversity. So, my spellbook is diversified - every mage I play is like this. I have a few magic trinkets, headband of intellect, the pearls of power. Those increase my spells usable per day. Anything else just isn't wizard-like. Wizard - like? I'd say a Hat of disguise is great for Illusionists, or any player who wants to play subtle. Most items, it's less about the items you have, and more about how you use them. Show the creativity with items that you do with casting... There are many good uses for alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags, etc... I love Alchemist's fire with Grease. Tanglefoot bags work great with any spell that hovers somewhere. Like stinking Cloud, or the like.
Ace_of_time 06-21-07, 11:15 PM	I see some people say +1 mithral buckler. But I like using mage armor and shield which is much better. doesn't make the other shield useless. I mean you can't use to sheilds.
runestar 06-21-07, 11:19 PM	I see some people say +1 mithral buckler. But I like using mage armor and shield which is much better. doesn't make the other shield useless. I mean you can't use to sheilds. Well, it will eventually serve as a precursor to a +5 mithral buckler of heavy fortification, so might as well start now. If you have the resources to keep casting shield ever so often, then go for it.:)
Ace_of_time 06-21-07, 11:29 PM	you could always get a glove of storing. I always get the stone that let you cast one spell twice a day. Both of the one I said are not in the core so they are out.
maharai23 06-22-07, 12:06 AM	The cost of scribing a scroll into your spellbook is equal to the cost of the scroll plus the cost of the ink for the scribing priced at 100*spell level. Total cost for pre-scribed scrolls = 5,400gp. You probably need to shave something somewhere. I'd probably spend about 3k on spells, but wouldn't focus entirely on 3rd level spells to do so. I'd look for a Ring of Protection +1 (Deflection being the most cost-effective bonus to AC that applies against all attacks all the time) and a Hewards Handy Haversack if the character is physically weak. A selection of healing potions (up to 5) and a wand of Enlarge Person @ CL1 leaves me with 1,000gp to spend on other stuff including basic adventuring gear (say 10gp), a weapon, maybe one scroll of a 4th level spell (Polymorph or Evards Black Tentacles) and the rest as loose change. My 3rd level spells are likely to be Slow and Dispel Magic. Alternatives include Displacement, Haste or Fly. I'd make sure that I had a Darkvision in my second level spell choices, so I am not dependent on light for exploring caverns or taking a night watch. I view the ring of protection as a wasted investment at lower levels. In a wave of the hand, a mage can get 4x the benefit with Shield. With a bit of knowledge, Mage armor can be up when needed. I can see shaving some off, and I certainly see a few level 2's, perhaps 2-3... but not with every mage. Some mages don't need every spell.. I, for one, can think of several with poor choices at 2nd level. Even so, Ring of Prot is a far worse investment than a pearl of power, even.
Ace_of_time 06-22-07, 01:33 AM	I don't find pearl of power that useful and you can always find ring of prot so I wouldn't buy it ether. My groups always splint the cost of a heal wand so one or two potions should do but you find them alot to.
runestar 06-22-07, 02:25 AM	At lower lvs, protection from evil can replicate a ring of protection fairly well (against evil foes, substitute for another alignment if you commonly face foes of other alignments). That is why it might be more beneficial to lug around wands earlier on. They can be used to replicate the effects of magic items more cheaply.
Yokomohoyo 06-22-07, 02:47 AM	Im supprised that no one has suggested the mostly used crowd controllers like sleep, hypnotic pattern, charm person... and not to mention some buffers like bull's strength, fox cunning, cats grace that can get some people out of some tough scraps. Heck even a dummy spell like "mount" can help in a tough one. For lower levels their are spells like summon monster I and II or in your case since your going necrotic, you could decide for Summon Undead from the SpC.
Merestil Haye 06-22-07, 07:06 PM	I view the ring of protection as a wasted investment at lower levels. In a wave of the hand, a mage can get 4x the benefit with Shield. With a bit of knowledge, Mage armor can be up when needed.Shield takes an action to cast, and does not apply to touch AC. Neither does Mage Armour. And, since the ring provides a Deflection bonus to AC, it stacks with both of the spells you mentioned. I can see shaving some off, and I certainly see a few level 2's, perhaps 2-3... but not with every mage. Some mages don't need every spell.. I, for one, can think of several with poor choices at 2nd level. Even so, Ring of Prot is a far worse investment than a pearl of power, even.You missed my point. You totally neglected the cost of scribing spells into the spellbook. You overspent by 1,950gp. You have to cut back.
Ace_of_time 06-22-07, 11:52 PM	:confused: :confused: :confused: The entry says it adds it's bonus to Incorp touch attack. So your saying it work on them but not reg touch attacks. It is a force effect.
Merestil Haye 06-23-07, 11:57 AM	:confused: :confused: :confused: The entry says it adds it's bonus to Incorp touch attack. So your saying it work on them but not reg touch attacks. It is a force effect.So? I didn't say "Mage Armour and Shield don't apply to Incorporeal Touch attacks." I said "Mage Armour and Shield do not apply to touch attacks." Because armour and shield bonuses don't apply to touch attacks. If a wizard attempts to Disintegrate you, your Mage Armour does not apply. Your Ring of Protection does.
Ace_of_time 06-23-07, 05:43 PM	So? I didn't say "Mage Armour and Shield don't apply to Incorporeal Touch attacks." I said "Mage Armour and Shield do not apply to touch attacks." Because armour and shield bonuses don't apply to touch attacks. If a wizard attempts to Disintegrate you, your Mage Armour does not apply. Your Ring of Protection does. Yes they do apply. Touch does not matter if you are wearing armor or not but mage armor is a deflection bonus and shield is a force effect and both count on touch attacks.
Merestil Haye 06-23-07, 07:00 PM	Yes they do apply. Touch does not matter if you are wearing armor or not but mage armor is a deflection bonus and shield is a force effect and both count on touch attacks.Reread the definitions. The definition of "Touch Attack" isAn attack in which the attacker must connect with an opponent but does not need to penetrate armor. Touch attacks may be either melee or ranged. The target's armor bonus, shield bonus, and natural armor bonus (including any enhancement bonuses to those values) do not apply to AC against a touch attack.This does not say "The targets armour bonus and shield bonus only count if they are from Force effects." It says that the targets armour bonus does not count at all. As for Mage Armour :An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, providing a +4 armor bonus to AC.Bolding mine. Force effect or not (and yes, Mage Armour is a Force effect), neither Mage Armour, Bracers of Armour nor Shield do anything to protect against touch attacks.
Ace_of_time 06-23-07, 08:22 PM	Reread the definitions. The definition of "Touch Attack" isThis does not say "The targets armour bonus and shield bonus only count if they are from Force effects." It says that the targets armour bonus does not count at all. As for Mage Armour :Bolding mine. Force effect or not (and yes, Mage Armour is a Force effect), neither Mage Armour, Bracers of Armour nor Shield do anything to protect against touch attacks. Page 136 PHB Your AC doesn't include armor, shield, or NA. All other modifers apply normally. Now force effect shields are different than reg shield as they don't only touch attacks throw them. It is a invis barr between him and the monster or wizard. Just because it grant a armor bonus doesn't mean it will not count on touch attacks. Also on page 306 under armor bonus it's in the last sentence. except for armor bonuses granted by force effects ( such as the mage armor spell)
Merestil Haye 06-23-07, 10:39 PM	Page 136 PHB Your AC doesn't include armor, shield, or NA. All other modifers apply normally.This passage is talking about touch attacks. You will notice that it says what I told you - that against touch attacks, armour bonuses do not apply. It does not matter whether they are force or not. The do not apply against touch attacks. If they did it would say so here.Now force effect shields are different than reg shield as they don't only touch attacks throw them. It is a invis barr between him and the monster or wizard. Just because it grant a armor bonus doesn't mean it will not count on touch attacks.The fact that your PHB cite does not say "armour bonuses from force effects apply against touch AC" but instead say "armour bonuses don't apply against touch AC" means exactly that no armour bonuses, even force ones, apply against touch AC. Also on page 306 under armor bonus it's in the last sentence. except for armor bonuses granted by force effects ( such as the mage armor spell)Read the whole thing, please. It is not talking about touch AC! The last sentence, in full, saysAn armour bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks, except for armour bonuses granted by force effects (such as the Mage Armour spell) which apply against incorporeal touch attacks such as that of the shadow.Bolding mine. You seem to think that an incorporeal touch attack is the same as a touch attack. That is simply wrong. The two things are superficially similar but actually different, as evidenced by the fact that one is called a touch attack and the other an incorporeal touch attack. Before you start claiming the designers would never split hairs that fine, they did. Deliberately.Armor bonuses and shield bonuses both very specifically say they do not apply against touch attacks, except for force effects, which apply against incorporeal touch attacks. This implies that even force effects that grant an armor or shield bonus do not apply against regular touch attacks. Is that so? If so, why? If a mage armor spell can make it harder for a spectre to lay a hand on you, why wouldn’t it also make it harder for a hobgoblin to lay a hand on you? A spectre doesn’t “lay a hand on you”—it slams you, and the blow goes right through your armor (and through your shield if you have one). An incorporeal touch attack is so named only to remind you that (most) armor and shields do not apply. A touch attack and an incorporeal touch attack are not the same thing. If they were, they wouldn’t have different names. An armor or shield bonus from a force effect applies against an incorporeal touch attack because the attack can’t pass through the force armor or shield as it can through an object. An armor or shield bonus doesn’t stop a regular touch effect, because touching it is the same as touching you (just as it is for any other kind of shield or armor you personally use).Armour bonuses from force effects protect against incorporeal touch attacks, but not touch attacks.
Ace_of_time 06-24-07, 01:01 AM	so a wall of force stop you and spells from going throw but mage armor and shield don't. To me that makes no sense.
Dragonsblood 06-24-07, 02:15 AM	Merestil Haye is correct. A ring of protection helps vs touch attacks. Mage Armor and Shield do not. Incorporeal touch attacks are a whole 'nother animal. Wall of Force is a 5th level spell, while Shield and Mage Armor are level 1, that's why it stops things. Stop grasping as straws, you know he's right. My list: HHH 2000 Cloak of Resistance 1000 Brooch of Shielding 1500 Ray of Enfeeblement wand 750 Pearl of Power Lv1 1000 2 potions of CLW 100 2 potions of CMW 600 The rest I'd spend on spells, scrolls, and mundane gear.
Ace_of_time 06-24-07, 12:38 PM	Merestil Haye is correct. A ring of protection helps vs touch attacks. Mage Armor and Shield do not. Incorporeal touch attacks are a whole 'nother animal. Wall of Force is a 5th level spell, while Shield and Mage Armor are level 1, that's why it stops things. Stop grasping as straws, you know he's right. My list: HHH 2000 Cloak of Resistance 1000 Brooch of Shielding 1500 Ray of Enfeeblement wand 750 Pearl of Power Lv1 1000 2 potions of CLW 100 2 potions of CMW 600 The rest I'd spend on spells, scrolls, and mundane gear. No I didn't know that we have always counted it on touch attacks and I had no Idea it didn't. because to was a force effect. My players will not be happy.
zzo38 06-24-07, 01:00 PM	I prefer playing wizards over any other class. As such, I strive for differences between each wizard - but my purchases are almost always the same. So, I'd like to see if it's me or every wizard player that shops the same way. So, I am asking the pureblood wizard players to equip their 5th level wizard. The DMG has 9,000 gp. Using the rule of 'no single purchase over 25%' allowed (that's 2,250gp), how will you spend your money? Use only the DMG and the PHB for purchases. Figure a wizard with S12 D12 C14 I16 W10 Ch10 Also, what two spells of 3rd level will you pick? I would take a dagger, quarterstaff, crossbow, small shield (shields are easy to remove when you want to cast a spell), everything listed in "Adventuring Gear", spellbook, spell component pouch, most alchemical items, some food, some scrolls. The spells I might take would be: Dispel Magic, Gaseous Form. (Later on other spells can be taken, such as: Displacement, Shrink Item, Major Image, etc)