Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rone_leah 05-14-06, 05:07 PM	my DM doesn't believe that evasion or improved evasion won't work in a pit with fireball for ten rounds and a fire elemental fighting you. I on the other hand think if the books don't say evasion doesn't work you shouldn't take class features away from the PCs. Who is right?
Mystyc 05-14-06, 05:26 PM	I don't understand. The pit is full of fire? There are fireballs being cast into it every round? In any case, it doesn't matter. Evasion and its improved version work perfectly, even in this situation. Remember, area attacks rarely (maybe never) actually fill every square inch of their area -- they affect each 5'x5' square in it, but there are small "safe" zones permeating the fireball/dragonfire/what-have-you. A character with evasion has the training/knack for finding those safe spots while ducking and covering.
Aldarionn 05-14-06, 06:16 PM	I don't understand. The pit is full of fire? There are fireballs being cast into it every round? In any case, it doesn't matter. Evasion and its improved version work perfectly, even in this situation. Remember, area attacks rarely (maybe never) actually fill every square inch of their area -- they affect each 5'x5' square in it, but there are small "safe" zones permeating the fireball/dragonfire/what-have-you. A character with evasion has the training/knack for finding those safe spots while ducking and covering. Exactly. You DM is just stupid. Evasion/Improved Evasion will work in any situation where you are not Paralyzed or imobalized in some other way. In the example above, Improved Evasion will save your life. Aldarionn
Turel 05-14-06, 09:14 PM	this guy brings up a good point tho. ive always been a bit anti the whole evasion thing. taking what was said about there being "safe zones" isn't correct. a fireball fills the area. it also states that the blast is spherical from a pea sized ball to a x by y area. theres no "gaps" in that blast, yet somehow the rogue manages to "evade" it? for free? without even taking a action/moving? Breath weapons are completely redundant against anyone with evasion/improved. AND there isnt even a way around it. if said rogue was entangled/stuck in the mud he'd still pull off some kinda forceshield/wicked dodge maneuver. let alone if you tried to dodge a fireball in your own round you'd have a few checks and rolls to accomplish 1st. (tumble? jump? etc...) to the point of "can you do this in 6 seconds?". why doesnt anyone think that evasion/improved is broken?!?! are there any errata's for it?! perhaps im just not clear on what it actually is.
Tempest Stormwind 05-14-06, 09:59 PM	Evasion: If you are subject to an effect that requires a Reflex throw for half damage, you take no damage on a sucessful save. Thus, if you are hit with a fireball (which already has a Reflex saving throw to evade half the effects by flinching just the right way, or something similar), Evasion is this increased to the point where you take no damage on that successful save. Improved Evasion is identical to Evasion, except that on a failed save, you take half damage instead of full. So, Improved Evasion (on a failed reflex save for half damage) is no better than a normal character succeeding his save for half damage. Evasion turns a Reflex save for half damage into a reflex save for no damage. This is not a broken ability by any stretch of the imagination. It doesn't grant a save when there's none, nor does it automatically succeed on any saving throw. Only Improved Evasion lets you ignore the effect, and even then only on a successful save. Finally, it only works on *damage* -- so, area-of-effect spells that deal no damage (or have any effect on ANY non-Reflex save) bypass it just fine. Plus, there's easy ways to counter Evasion (prevent the rogue from moving) that don't factor in to any other saving-throw effect (such as Divine Grace).
Wuggadad 05-14-06, 10:58 PM	Since Evasion requires no more than Light Armor I would imagine that anything that constrains their movements more than Light Armor does would also eliminate the Evasion ability.
runestar 05-14-06, 11:10 PM	You will get evasion, unless you are somehow helpless or immobilised. remember that you will still fail on a 1, so its not foolproof. ;)
Mystyc 05-14-06, 11:11 PM	Since Evasion requires no more than Light Armor I would imagine that anything that constrains their movements more than Light Armor does would also eliminate the Evasion ability.You might imagine that, but as the ability doesn't say as much, it isn't the case.
Turel 05-15-06, 06:04 PM	"...by flinching just the right way, or something similar..." the way you explain in detail the finer points of evasion... do you work for Wizards? see thats what i dont understand. i can get that a rogue/high dex PC can dodge and move really fast, but you just cant dodge a fireball that takes a splitsecond to expand to its full size, or a breath weapon that completly covers the area leaving nowhere to run. is it magical? does it mean that having dodged the "undodge-able" said character shouldnt bother with AC as his reflex will get him out of everything? how can he get hit by that bastard sword yet dodge 30 fireballs all centred on him, when its not even his turn!?!??! open for discussion please... does noone agree with me, or see my point?
arjomanes 05-15-06, 06:27 PM	Well, really anything that requires a reflex save has to be partly dodgeable. That's why dexterity modifies your reflex saving throw. So, maybe your impression of what a fireball is makes it harder to picture it. What about a lightning bolt? Does that seem easier to evade? Basically, it's just rules to govern the game, but if you want to try and imagine it, think of the fireball as having areas it fills and areas it doesn't, areas that are hotter than others or whatever. It doesn't really matter how you picture it, mechanically, but it will help in visualizing the scene and what's going on. Basically a rogue of high enough levels will never get caught unaware by a fireball if he still has his dexterity bonus, and will be able to dodge it somewhat--even to the extent that he can dodge it completely.
Spike_Fightwicky 05-15-06, 06:54 PM	What I always found a little wonky about Evasion/Imp. Evasion is how it works with mounts. A paladin mount gets Imp. Evasion. Suppose a fireball is launched at the paladin on his mount. Paladin fails his save, but the mount makes his save. Somehow, the mount takes no damage, but the rider takes full damage. Doesn't make much sense to me...
Shaggy_Shaggs 05-15-06, 07:17 PM	What I always found a little wonky about Evasion/Imp. Evasion is how it works with mounts. A paladin mount gets Imp. Evasion. Suppose a fireball is launched at the paladin on his mount. Paladin fails his save, but the mount makes his save. Somehow, the mount takes no damage, but the rider takes full damage. Doesn't make much sense to me... Oh that's easy, the mount held the paladin up like a tower shield to block the blast. :D
kelvinaw273 05-16-06, 05:51 AM	"...by flinching just the right way, or something similar..." the way you explain in detail the finer points of evasion... do you work for Wizards? see thats what i dont understand. i can get that a rogue/high dex PC can dodge and move really fast, but you just cant dodge a fireball that takes a splitsecond to expand to its full size, or a breath weapon that completly covers the area leaving nowhere to run. is it magical? does it mean that having dodged the "undodge-able" said character shouldnt bother with AC as his reflex will get him out of everything? how can he get hit by that bastard sword yet dodge 30 fireballs all centred on him, when its not even his turn!?!??! open for discussion please... does noone agree with me, or see my point? Well, a flame is there, but if you pass your hand through it quickly you don't get burned. A fireball may expand slowly or quickly, but you need a few moments immersion in it to take the full wack of damage. The guy that flies out after a tenth of a second's exposure is only going to get singed; the one that stands there is going to get burned. You raise a good point in one repsect: I might house-rule that next time a party gets hit by a reflex-save attack they have to move 5' if they make thier reflex save.
Papa_duval 05-16-06, 07:17 AM	I suppose you could consider it like this. Its theoretically possible to dodge bullets - however you don't do it once the bullet is fired, you don't actually dodge the projectile, you dodge away from the point the firer is targeting towards. You can't dodge a bullet thats been fired, and if you've not tried to dodge before the trigger is pulled, you wouldn't be able to. You dodge the firer, not the bullet. With a fireball, you dive out of the way, behind someone else, out of the AoE, etc. (You could houserule that any time a rogue succesfully evades a fireball fully, they are moved to the outside edge of the blast, or behind some object/creature that might provide enough of a shield to survive) With a lightning bolt, your not actually dodging the bolt of electricity (an impossibility), Your dodging the caster's targeting. However, there are situations which can cause you to be denied your saving through. Evasion (and improved evasion) only apply when your allowed to make a saving throw. As a GM, you'd be well within your rights to say that a rogue trapped in a 10ft pit would not be able to evade the explosion. The fire elemental in the pit adds an additional complication, as in theory, the rogue could dodge to a point where the fire elemental provides the shielding he/she needs to evade part or all of the explosion.
Waylander 05-16-06, 07:41 AM	You are allowed as a DM to raise the DC... the DM should raise the DC for the circumstance... evasion/improved evasion will work... and as someone stated before, evasion is not fool proof... roll a 1 is automatic fail... the rogue happens to be fast with high reflex saves so they easily make the roll..
Traevanon 05-16-06, 09:50 AM	Since Evasion requires no more than Light Armor I would imagine that anything that constrains their movements more than Light Armor does would also eliminate the Evasion ability. That is a good point and a possible springboard to a houserule. It could easily be extend to include moderate / heavy encumberance to bring enfeeblement tactics into play. Perhaps it could even require an effective movement rate of at least 20ft, that way the rogue on a tightrope, stuck in the mud, or entangled in webs couldnt evade. Evasion is powerful, especially so because it is coupled with a good Reflex Save and a high ability score on top of it, but it is managable. I suggest that before you create a houserule for Evasion / Imp Evasion, that you consider using better tactics, harsher terrain, more volotile combat conditions, wider scale battles, cover and concealment, temporary buffs and a wider variety of more detailed opponents. You DM is just stupid. That wasnt necessary or helpful, nor was it in proper english.
cambric 05-16-06, 10:34 AM	So you don't quite see how you can 'evade', but you totally understand a fire ball being cast from a wizard?? In RL: Have you not heard of a baby falling 9 floors and not having a scratch on him? Or the guy who wiped out in the Ferri at 192 miles per hour, into a telephone pole, cutting it in half and all he gets is a split lip? Some things are just unexplainable. Evasion: An ability for rogues and barbarians that allow them to react so quickly they are unhurt. Why worry about it? If you can believe a caster can spit out fireballs, lightening bolts, magic missiles (that never miss!?!) then believing a creature can react so quickly to avoid damage isn't that much harder, is it? As for moving them 5' past the blast radius: that too is impractical. What if you're on a cliff and it would cause the rogue to fall and die? You're removing a special ability that was tested out from a class that already is weak. It's not that 'great' of a thing for the Rogue...have you not heard of "WILL" saves? So remove the one great save, a cool ability to survive, but yet sit back with casters that can 'charm' them? Before doing something so irrational as removing an ability from a class, look at the BIG picture. It's ONE cool ability, that is still shared out with another class...why remove it? It's not broken! Look over everything, every class, every spell, every ability and you'll realize there are many things more potent than 'evasion or improved evasion.' Cam
DrMorganes 05-16-06, 11:10 AM	Evasion - and it's older brother Improved Evasion - are more akin, in my opinion, to a sixth sense of sorts. You've been in danger so freaking often that you know a bit better than most how things work, can guess (in a non-conscious, gut-reacting sort of way) where that wizard is going to drop his Fireball, and manage to just MOVE a bit faster than the average adventurer. In short, you know how to keep your keister out of harm's way! Toss in the facts that this IS a fantasy roll-playing game, that most PCs are far above the "average" specimin of their race, and that they're supposed to be heroes fer cryin' out loud, and suddenly it makes a bit more sense that the rogue can actually dodge a bolt of lightning. That said, however, the description of Reflex Saving Throws specifically states that the PC must have room to maneuver in order to be allowed a Reflex Save. If you're detonating a Fireball in the center of an empty 20'x20'x20' room, the spread of the spell will fill the entire space, leaving nowhere to dodge. So back to the original post: will Evasion and Improved Evasion work "in a pit with fireball for ten rounds and a fire elemental fighting you"? Yes, provided the pit is large enough to accommodate movement (I'm picturing a large sunken arena type area, not a standard 10'x10' pit trap) or you have some sort of feature you could even theoretically hide behind.
Archtyrant Terevoth 05-16-06, 12:59 PM	Since Evasion requires no more than Light Armor I would imagine that anything that constrains their movements more than Light Armor does would also eliminate the Evasion ability. Yeah, I'd tend to say that would be a reasonable interpretation. Not 100% RAW legal, but still reasonable.
Tegemea 05-16-06, 03:48 PM	I think this is definitely one of those points where the logic and the rules just don't match up intuitively. People have already suggested on this thread ways to think about it to make it seem more realistic, but I think the bottom line is this: by the RAW, improved evasion will work perfectly well in your fire-filled pit. That doesn't mean or even imply that it is logically possible. Its just the rules. Its up to the group, ultimately the DM, whether a houserule should alter the situation. Personally, i'll deal with the logic headache, because i think the rules are balanced in this case. Fireballs just aren't a very effective way to kill a skilled rogue. As has been mentioned, anything requiring a will save, on the other hand, will be very effective. Or maybe single combat with creatures immune to sneak attacks ...
MerlintheTuna 05-16-06, 06:33 PM	There are a lot of ways to think of evasion. Maybe the rogue flaps his cloak/shield at just the right time, redirecting a lot of the flames around him, as can be done with arrows. Maybe the blast isn't a single orb but a number of tiny flames (maybe your 10d6 is in fact 10 1d6 bits of fire per person) and he's nimble enough to dodge everything. Maybe the blast is a certain height in the air and he Neo's under it or jumps over it. Maybe it's a game mechanic that helps out a few classes with what is the least important save in the game. Evasion isn't "broken." Leave it alone.
Nom 05-16-06, 07:34 PM	That said, however, the description of Reflex Saving Throws specifically states that the PC must have room to maneuver in order to be allowed a Reflex Save.PH glossary, "reflex save": Nope PH pg 136, "saving throws": Nope Actually, I don't think this "specific" rule exists, and it is specifically stated in the FAQ that even helpless characters get Ref Saving throws (albeit with a Dex of 0) In contrast, Evasion specifically states that helpless characters cannot evade.
Turel 05-16-06, 08:50 PM	great posting guys. it would appear that you all can see my point, that evasion is quite flaky, and youve all brought up some great ideas for getting around some tricky ruling situations. its good to see some decent discussion without namecalling. perhaps theres mention of evasion in PHB2? (its not out here in New Zealand yet :@ ) funny how they pretty much leave the facts of evasion up to the player/DM at the time (as to how he physically dodges the area effect). almost like WOTC saying "we dont know how it works either" but only they can answer that (HINT HINT). in the meantime i guess my imagination will have to do. (might try and make a char with no ac but reflex saves to evade EVERYTHING, like a char that can see the future, but can he react fast enuff tho; heaps of insight bonuses and very "house ruled" feats...)
cambric 05-16-06, 10:06 PM	it would appear that you all can see my point, that evasion is quite flaky, and youve all brought up some great ideas for getting around some tricky ruling situations. funny how they pretty much leave the facts of evasion up to the player/DM at the time (as to how he physically dodges the area effect). almost like WOTC saying "we dont know how it works either" but only they can answer that (HINT HINT). in the meantime i guess my imagination will have to do. (might try and make a char with no ac but reflex saves to evade EVERYTHING, like a char that can see the future, but can he react fast enuff tho; heaps of insight bonuses and very "house ruled" feats...) It's pretty straight forward...you make your reflex saving throw and you evade. As long as you can move...you can't be held, etc...but I don't think people here think it's "flaky", it's pretty much cut and dry. Sure, they don't 'explain' it, but if someone can 'hide in plain' sight, standing 5' in front of you, with nothing to hide behind, you can 'understand' that but not: "if you make your reflex saving throw, you evade all damage?" Maybe it's just me, but that is one of the easiest things to understand in D&D. Cam
jasper 05-17-06, 12:29 PM	however one of bullet point in dmg I think of 3.0 allows a defeat of evasion in you inclosed area. Like crawling through a sewer pipe.
Turel 05-17-06, 06:54 PM	i can understand completly. some situations seem somewhat implausable tho, especially when WOTC don't give a detailed description of exactly how it works (ie 30 fireballs in a 10/10 pit). i like to bring up discussions. just because you can't see more than one point of view doesnt mean i cant. --==sticking up for the underdog since 1873==--
rone_leah 05-17-06, 06:56 PM	Sorry for not explaning sooner so the pit is 20x20 and the flames aren't from a fire ball the pit is just magically on fire for 10 rounds and a large or huge (can't remeber) elemental is summoned to beat you, but the problem isn't just this trap the dm keeps thinking that evasion should be logical and is trying to take evasion from other attacks like fireball, and i don't like the idea of moving to avoid it because it would probably take our strategic advantage away. also it doesn't say you have to in the books
Shaggy_Shaggs 05-17-06, 07:02 PM	If the DM likes logic over gameplay so much, surely he sees that no magic-users, supernatural creatures or other such things can exist. And really, who needs Evasion when there are no spellcasters in the world?
Shatteredtower 05-18-06, 07:45 AM	i can understand completly. some situations seem somewhat implausable tho, especially when WOTC don't give a detailed description of exactly how it works (ie 30 fireballs in a 10/10 pit).What, and deny people the ability to determine how it works for themselves? That seems to fly in the face of most of the 3rd Edition mindset, which is: dictate as little as possible, so that the people running the game have more room to determine why something happens as it does. I mean, have you ever tried firing five arrows in six seconds? With the right feats, you can fire five bolts a round from a light crossbow! How does that even make sense? Well, that's up to you, and so it should be. i like to bring up discussions. just because you can't see more than one point of view doesnt mean i cant.No, but here, you're insisting that there has to be one point of view and that it has to be delivered to us from WotC. Or TSR for that matter, since monks had this ability since at least as far back as 1st Edition. Look, if you can accept that even an unconscious character can make a Reflex save (but does not gain the benefit of evasion), then what's the real difference between managing to avoid all damage from being exceptionally good at minimizing the risk to yourself? Why is an unconscious rogue more likely to be lucky in such a scenario than an unconscious wizard or cleric? It doesn't matter whether it comes down to a rogue instantly ducking for cover and standing again, or having reflexes honed well enough to recognize and shift into the path of least resistance (or current, heat, chill, or whatever), or even capable of going ethereal for the briefest of instances in the face of certain dangers. If WotC told you which of those they thought was true (after sorting through disagreements between game designers about which way they think it should work), you'll have a number of players object to the proposal and alter the notion as they see fit. Knowing that, why not leave out the step you're suggesting? ;)