Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prince_of_Parkness 04-21-08, 08:48 PM	Now that ive gotten that out of my system, allow me to explain the situation in a little more detail. I applied to this online game, submitting a shadow blade and weapon finessing Rogue 5/Swordsage 1/Invisible Blade 3. Reasonably strong but not anything mind blowing. I sent the character sheet to the DM and he responds (after approving the design) something along the lines of: "This is a powerful character, I've got a 5th level that could probably beat this one. Then again hes my character so hes like the main character in the game" Ive deciding to stick along and see exactly how this turns out, but in your other people's opinions, is there any chance this game will be fun?
Talisman 04-21-08, 09:16 PM	Sounds like the GM has a "storyteller" mentality going on (and not in the good way). GMPCs can be good if handled delicately, but they should never be the "main character." The amount of fun you can get out of this depends on your tolerance level for shenanigans. If it's low, I suggest bailing now and hunting down an actually, legitimately, decent game. If you decide to stick it out, play it straight at first, It's just slightly possible (not probable, but, as a friend of mine would put it, there's a non-zero chance) that the GM isn't a power-mongering Iron Fist warlord and the game will actually be great. If so, great! If not, you've got three basic choices: (1) Bail. Explain why. Try to avoid being nasty and confrontational, but don't back down either. (2) Strap yourself in and refuse to take anything seriously. Treat it like a particularly goofy video game. Go into combat expecting your character to die. It's nigh-impossible to maintain suspension of disbelief in these circumstances, but if you think of it as a kiddie game of "let's pretend," you might be able to have fun with it. (3) Go on the offensive. Refuse to participate in stupidity. If an NPC cheeses you off, deal with him. Actively pursue your own agenda. NOTE: Don't be a royal jerk about this, especially to the other PCs. When possible support their stuff. Just make it clear that you're not here for GM's Story Hour. Option #3 has little chance of success in the long run, but depending on how annoyed you are, it can be satisfying. Be careful not to buy into the GM's "me vs. them" mindset; attack the stupid elements, not the people or the game. Whatever path you choose, good luck.
Daeva 04-22-08, 12:41 AM	number three there makes you worse D&D player the GM can possibly be, id rather a railroading DMNPC as the main character game, then one where a player selfishly ruins the fun for their own fun.
Etarnon 04-22-08, 01:36 AM	Hey what game is this, I want to join in the fun.
Jezzick 04-22-08, 04:55 AM	Hey what game is this, I want to join in the fun. This wins the thread.
Etarnon 04-22-08, 06:06 AM	No lie, I want to see if this guy is from here. If so, he doesn't take advantage of the wealth of opportunities to get better, relatively rapidly. If not, well he needs to report in, front and center, cause tihs is where Bad DMPC Rubber meets the roleplay road, in campaigns like that.
kelvinaw273 04-22-08, 07:41 AM	Sounds like the GM has a "storyteller" mentality going on (and not in the god way). GMPCs can be good if handled delicately, but they should never be the "main character." No, he has an 'ego' mentality. Storytelling is good in some contexts (such as telling the PC's story, and not pre-writing it), with or without DMPCs, but ego-pandering never is. I completely agree with everything else you say, though.
Tytalus 04-22-08, 08:47 AM	"This is a powerful character, I've got a 5th level that could probably beat this one. Then again hes my character so hes like the main character in the game" Ugggh ... this makes all my warning lights go on. Try it out, but be prepared to run like heck if need be.
green_yawgmoth 04-22-08, 10:15 AM	When you see him face to face, laugh at him. make sure you point derisively at him while laughing. Keep laughing until he asks why you're laughing. Keep laughing for 30 more seconds, then tell him "that's how funny thinking that any character in D&D is the 'main character'." Then tell him the internet thinks he's 'tarded.
Gentlemanic 04-22-08, 03:13 PM	Dm's should be careful not to take away the thunder from the player's. But it's a common starter's mistake.
Talisman 04-22-08, 05:53 PM	No, he has an 'ego' mentality. Storytelling is good in some contexts (such as telling the PC's story, and not pre-writing it), with or without DMPCs, but ego-pandering never is. I completely agree with everything else you say, though. That's why I said "not in a good way." Storytelling in D&D is good...if it's the collaborative story of the players + the GM. It sounds like this guy has the story already written out, and he intends to tell it to the players. Same difference.
Etarnon 04-22-08, 06:35 PM	I don't think this is a case of railroading. I think it's a case of his line of thinking which seems like: "My NPC is so cool, in this fantasy where he kicks so much ass, (Walter Mitty style wish fulfillment). You players just support my guy in my Mary Sue adventure." I want to see if this is the case. Live, on the grid.
geekling 04-23-08, 12:42 PM	Sounds like your "DM" is coming from a background of free-form PbP RPs. This sort of thing is pretty much on par with the majority of them, 90% kind of majority if you're talking fandom based ones. In D&D the DM creates the adventure and populate the world with NPCs for the main characters - ie. the characters of the players to interact with. In most freeform PbP RPs, the 'GM' 'ST' 'mod' - whatever they choose to call themselves. Sets up the world, create their own character and try and recruit players to populate the world with characters for their character to interact with. Or in D&D speak, the players are the ones running the NPCs, and the DM the main character / characters.
Drackthor 04-23-08, 01:16 PM	Then tell him the internet thinks he's 'tarded. I was going to suggest the "YOU ARE FIGHTING WITH THE INTERNET, MR. CASTIGLIONE, AND THE INTERNET IS ABOUT TO FIGHT BACK." but yours works, too.
Roguewiz 04-23-08, 01:30 PM	DMPCs are good, if they are only used to push plot forward or add a little bit of flavor to the game. The session isn't about how the DMs PC "Bob" and should never be. I will admit, it is entertaining to watch a DM roleplay with himself, but that gets old after a while. (except when it is "romance" roleplaying. That NEVER gets old)
Zombie_Babies 04-23-08, 03:35 PM	I will admit, it is entertaining to watch a DM roleplay with himself, but that gets old after a while. (except when it is "romance" roleplaying. That NEVER gets old) OTOH, it does tend to get sticky.
Drackthor 04-23-08, 03:44 PM	OTOH, it does tend to get sticky. Zombie_Babies, your villainy in the art of crafting mental images knows no bounds. :uh-huh:
Timlagor 04-23-08, 03:49 PM	Your first reaction should have been to reply to the GM privately expressing your concerns and see how they respond. DMPCs are good, if they are only used to push plot forward or add a little bit of flavor to the game. The session isn't about how the DMs PC "Bob" and should never be. I will admit, it is entertaining to watch a DM roleplay with himself, but that gets old after a while. (except when it is "romance" roleplaying. That NEVER gets old) Isn't that what NPCs are for?
Zombie_Babies 04-23-08, 04:54 PM	Zombie_Babies, your villainy in the art of crafting mental images knows no bounds. :uh-huh: :evillaugh Oh. And sigg'd. TY.
pigknight 04-23-08, 10:02 PM	I use a DMPC but he is not really important to the story line, people will miss him but it won't be the end of the world (unless it's a big battle with the BBEG but otherwise no). He's optomised but that was a complete accident (wanted to make him do Ike's Aether from SSBB (not FE: POR, 'cause that's hard to do, wait a sec...Crusader!), Rhino's Rush + Power Attack + Charging Smite Variant + Homebrew ability to add Cha to Dmg with 2 handers + Lucky Character Creator Dice = 4d6 + 52 damage on a charge). Back on topic, this guy sounds like he might have a power trip: "This is a powerful character, I've got a 5th level that could probably beat this one. Then again hes my character so hes like the main character in the game" I would say play with him because his guy might be powerful on accident (see mine) or he might be on a power trip, so run, FAST!
Sinis 04-23-08, 10:23 PM	Now that ive gotten that out of my system, allow me to explain the situation in a little more detail. I applied to this online game, submitting a shadow blade and weapon finessing Rogue 5/Swordsage 1/Invisible Blade 3. Reasonably strong but not anything mind blowing. I sent the character sheet to the DM and he responds (after approving the design) something along the lines of: "This is a powerful character, I've got a 5th level that could probably beat this one. Then again hes my character so hes like the main character in the game" Ive deciding to stick along and see exactly how this turns out, but in your other people's opinions, is there any chance this game will be fun? In my emphasis, there lies a hint to what I would suggest.
pigknight 04-23-08, 10:25 PM	Wow I didn't see that...dude that guys on a power trip....RUN FOREST RUN!
Etarnon 04-24-08, 03:57 AM	I'm still wanting to find out where this game is happening, so that i can join it, and bask.
Roguewiz 04-24-08, 09:07 AM	Your first reaction should have been to reply to the GM privately expressing your concerns and see how they respond. Isn't that what NPCs are for? Argueably, true, but when the DM actually: rolls stats, equips the character, and makes a character sheet...you can say it is no longer an NPC and becomes an DMPC. Either way, a DM can roleplay a little bit as the NPC or his DMPC as long as he doesn't make either one the centerpoint of his story.
Talisman 04-24-08, 08:12 PM	Either way, a DM can roleplay a little bit as the NPC or his DMPC as long as he doesn't make either one the centerpoint of his story. :thumbsup: Used delicately, a GMPC is an asset...it lets the GM roleplay "one of us guys" a little bit, sometimes introduce plot threads in a more believeable manner, and round out the party if no one wants to play the [badly-needed archetype]. GMPCs are also useful in my group, because we often "guest GM" - I'll run a one-shot adventure during "Bill's" campaign, and vice versa. This lets the normal GM have a character to play without introducing one just for that session. Also, nothing says "it's on" like the GM casually killing of a major character...and GMPCs combine the impact of a PC death with the killability of an NPC.
CaptainPicard 04-25-08, 12:42 AM	Argueably, true, but when the DM actually: rolls stats, equips the character, and makes a character sheet...you can say it is no longer an NPC and becomes an DMPC. ... What? That's how I make all of my NPCs. Isn't that how everyone else does it? In fact, I'm somewhat puzzled as to how one would make an NPC without doing that.
Etarnon 04-25-08, 12:52 AM	Agreed, I stat out and equip all of my NPCs other than say Orcs or goblins. This is why I dislike 3.5 Stat blocks.
Exposed_Wires 04-25-08, 01:49 AM	I never fill out character sheets for NPCs. I scribble stats that I think will be needed in my notebook so that I'm prepared come game time. I know how long NPCs will be in the story and I usually know what actions he is going to be engaging the PCs in so I can jot those stats down ahead of time. Never do I roll stats and fill out an entire character sheet for background players. It's a waste of paper and energy. Do you need a birth certificate for your pet?
ChaoticGood 04-25-08, 02:04 AM	OTOH, it does tend to get sticky. In my experience, it gets sticky on the FIRST hand, too... :tie: Do you need a birth certificate for your pet? That depends on what kind of pet you have and who you want to impress. You don't need anything but proof of rabies vaccination to keep a stray mutt, but try getting your Great Dane into the Westminster Dog Show without a pedigree. ;)
Exposed_Wires 04-25-08, 02:08 AM	That depends on what kind of pet you have and who you want to impress. You don't need anything but proof of rabies vaccination to keep a stray mutt, but try getting your Great Dane into the Westminster Dog Show without a pedigree. ;) My point exactly. ;)
Wheldrake 04-25-08, 02:48 AM	"This is a powerful character, I've got a 5th level that could probably beat this one. Then again hes my character so hes like the main character in the game" This kind of remark doesn't *necessarily* spell disaster, it all depends on what the DM means by "main character" and especially "*my* character". If by "main character" he means the main NPC that players will interact with during the scenario, that's not bad. Even if the NPC tags along for a while, he can be an asset to the gaming session, especially if he ultimately plays the "red shirt" role and gets killed, bringing the reality of danger and death to the PCs' doorstep without any of them actually having to roll up a new character. But if it means the DM's character is going to hog the spotlight, be the main hero for whom all the PCs are little more than picturesque sidekicks, then the general feeling in comments in this thread is fully justified. A DM has to constantly play the roles of a withering variety of NPCs. Having recurring NPCs is good. But a DM must never lose sight of the fact that the PCs have to be the "heros" (or anti-heros) of the story. Cheers, --- Wheldrake
Roguewiz 04-25-08, 09:41 AM	... What? That's how I make all of my NPCs. Isn't that how everyone else does it? In fact, I'm somewhat puzzled as to how one would make an NPC without doing that.You have a point. However, in a lot of cases, it doesn't end there for some DMs. When a NPC begins taking a portion of the party loot, and the DM begins actively roleplaying said NPC, at that point; it becomes a DMPC.
metalmayhem80110 04-25-08, 02:09 PM	Well you could do the bastard thing that I always do. When his PC starts to take the spotlight, or requests an item out of the loot. Just start a fight with him, and argue your heart out. Than during the night, do the rogue thing and end the arguement once and for all!
Talisman 04-25-08, 03:35 PM	You have a point. However, in a lot of cases, it doesn't end there for some DMs. When a NPC begins taking a portion of the party loot, and the DM begins actively roleplaying said NPC, at that point; it becomes a DMPC. You say that like it's a bad thing :D I actively roleplay all my NPCs (at least, as much as is reasonable). If an NPC accompanies the PCs on a quest, risks danger, and helps them slay the monsters, that he's damn sure getting a share of the loot as well! Remember, the characters don't have "PC," "NPC" and "Mook" stamped on their foreheads. As far as the characters know, that guy in the inn who's just a line of description is as real and alive as Lord Dreadly the Dreadful Dread, who's been trying to kill them for ten years.
Etarnon 04-26-08, 04:18 PM	MetalMayhem80110 Wrote: Well you could do the bastard thing that I always do. When his PC starts to take the spotlight, or requests an item out of the loot. Just start a fight with him, and argue your heart out. Than during the night, do the rogue thing and end the arguement once and for all! What do you do with fellow party members? And if it's not similar, or exactly the same, why not?
YamiShinobi 04-26-08, 06:06 PM	You say that like it's a bad thing :D Remember, the characters don't have "PC," "NPC" and "Mook" stamped on their foreheads. As far as the characters know, that guy in the inn who's just a line of description is as real and alive as Lord Dreadly the Dreadful Dread, who's been trying to kill them for ten years. I know what PC and NPC mean but what does Mook Mean?
Half_Dragon_Infernal 04-26-08, 11:43 PM	Mook means the guys that are massed and only have the bare minimum for combat stats prepared. Also, they are usually low-CR
Talisman 04-27-08, 10:43 AM	Mook means the guys that are massed and only have the bare minimum for combat stats prepared. Also, they are usually low-CR That's pretty much it. Mooks are the nameless, faceless hordes of bad guys...the 20 orcish warriors, the 50 skeletons, the 1,000 evil brutes, who all have identical stats and no real description. I don't know where the word came from. My group has always called 'em "mooks."
Anansi 04-28-08, 02:20 AM	You know... I've often wondered about the origin of the word "mook" myself.
Entropy_Judge 04-28-08, 04:22 AM	You know... I've often wondered about the origin of the word "mook" myself. According to urbandictionary, it comes from either Douglas Rushkoff in a PBS series called "Frontline," or else it comes from "Mean Streets," by Martin Scorsese.
Etarnon 04-29-08, 12:53 AM	It's 30's Era Gangland slang. Go watch some ancient black and white movies with tommy guns.
Mock26 04-29-08, 03:31 AM	Now that ive gotten that out of my system, allow me to explain the situation in a little more detail. I applied to this online game, submitting a shadow blade and weapon finessing Rogue 5/Swordsage 1/Invisible Blade 3. Reasonably strong but not anything mind blowing. I sent the character sheet to the DM and he responds (after approving the design) something along the lines of: "This is a powerful character, I've got a 5th level that could probably beat this one. Then again hes my character so hes like the main character in the game" Ive deciding to stick along and see exactly how this turns out, but in your other people's opinions, is there any chance this game will be fun? There is always a chance that a game that appears to be bad will in fact be fun. Fortunately you have decided on the only possible way to truly know for a fact whether or not it will be fun, and that is to give it a whirl! I hope that it is fun for you and the others. Good luck.