Evil should be subtle... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Evil should be subtle... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
David_Roben2
07-18-06, 04:24 PM I'm looking for some suggestions. Here is the premise: CE is good and all, but my character is LE.
My DM ok'ed me to be LE in a good oriented group. The rest of the group is unaware of my alignment. My goals to this point are in line with the rest of the party, so I will help them to the best of my ability. But I am going to set things up for when, not if, I am ready to double cross the party. At that time I will surrender my character to the DM to become the next BBEG.
So far I have:
Gotten myself appointed as an advisor to a member of the council of elders in the largest city in the area.
Have begun to float rumors that a group of wild elves that crossed me early in the campaign have been slaughtering merchant caravans in an attempt to use city resources to wipe them out.
Have ordered some magic items (basicly earrings designed to be walkie-talkies) with a master item that allows me to spy on the party via a clairaudience ability. The items also have a triggerable darkness spell centered on the items that my character will use when he is ready to make a daring escape.

And then the creative juices dry up. What else can I do to help setup my character's transistion to the bad guy? Anything else I can do to abuse my powers and influence? I have been considering taking Leadership to begin making a following (later to become the evil army). How about some good RPing tips?

Current stats:
wizard(evoker specialist) 2/cleric 2. Headed for mystic theurge. Planning on giving up the Character around lvl 14-15.
Rerecros
07-18-06, 06:18 PM Grow a big curly mustache, and start twisting it while giggling to yourself :P
Being a BBEG is more than the accessories.

One thing you seem to be laking is a master plan.
Other than killing wild elves for no reason other than hatred, you haven't mentioned any plans this character has made.
What does he want? Money? Power? Women?
Being a cleric makes things easier since advancing the plan of an evil deity is a giv'in (unless your a cleric of an idea).

Quite simply, until the other PCs stand in the way of your plans I don't see why you would turn on them. An evil character can work along just fine with good characters if they have common goals, and they don't mind each-other's methodologies.
kelvinaw273
07-18-06, 06:29 PM I concur ... you need to have a set goal for your character that they are working towards, like ruling the world. If you can do this with the help of the rest of the party, great. Don't plan on double-crossing them for the sake of doing it. Actively seek out reasons for your goals to be furthered by their actions. You could arrange things, for example, so that you are the logical choice for ruler of the kingdom and get them to help you attain it ....
David_Roben2
07-18-06, 07:36 PM Good stuff. At this point, his only motivation is attaining power. He is a bit vengeful with the whole "wipe out an entire tribe because they slighted him" thing. I definitely like the setting himself up as ruler idea, though. Thoughts had already crossed his mind on bumping off a member or three of the council to take over one of their positions. That might be a start to kinghood. The real reason I started this character was solely to give the DM a well rounded and fleshed out BBEG. This is his first DM attempt, (he is doing very well so far) and I wanted to give him a little help. I could sure use some more ideas for nefarious plans to get started on in the meantime. (for my own enjoyment as much as to give the DM plenty of wiggle room when he is running him)
Cifer
07-18-06, 07:50 PM Well... wanting to become king. The steps in the process would be:

-eliminate people who can easily get to know stuff about you. This means that you might work to drive paladins out of the city - detect evil is such a pesky ability that might make others suspicious as soon as you make the more obvious moves towards power
-solve problems you made yourself. Hire a group of thugs to take over a bridge and demand toll, then "scare them off" (you might want to kill them afterwards in order to make sure they don't talk)
-as soon as you are seen as the most virtuous man in town, see to it that one of the elders is killed. You might even want to assist in his rescuing, but tragically fail.

Grow a big curly mustache, and start twisting it while giggling to yourself
It's a goatee... mustaches are so yesterday.
Rerecros
07-18-06, 07:58 PM what are you a cleric of?

If you simply must betray your fellow PCs, then I suggest using this to your full advantage.
Make yourself in charge of the missions your PCs do.
Send them off to kill your enemies but for false reasons.

Like an evil cult (a good mission) is creating (destroying) an army of undead and have to be stopped (taken care of).

Since many missions in D&D is just go to site A and kill B, most players will not tell the difference between attacking good guys and bad guys, at least until some "badguy" starts summoning celestials.
Gneral Kass
07-18-06, 08:26 PM Well, try this; a few days (missions, play sessions, whatever) before you make your attempt at becoming king (and after you're next in line for the throne) hire a party of thugs that look similar to the rest of your party. Then hold a party in the king's honor.

Make sure your party is off on an escort mission (perhaps bringing in the magical items you ordered) during the party. Assist the hired thugs into the back door of the party then go back around as if you are just arriving. Once inside pull the king away from his guards for a private conversation about some random BS that sounds urgent.

Pull the king to a designated spot and watch as the hired thugs mug the king (mortally wound, not kill). When the guards try to give chase stop them by making them take the king to the nearest medic. Make sure the wound is highly poisoned and bleeding, perhaps only a a few minutes of life left after the poison takes hold. Assure them that you will give chase against the traitors.

Kill the thugs when you pay them by using a trap of some sort or a poisoned toast to a job well done and dispose of the bodies. When you return to the guards or when the guards find you you should look like you've been in a tussle. Since you're now the rightful king, put a death warrant out on the real party. They'll have no choice but to seek you out for the final confrontation.
Kradlo
07-18-06, 08:59 PM So you want to double-cross the rest of the party and become the BBEG. Is this a plan that you and the GM have concocted? If it's part of the campaign plot, cool, just be careful not to be too effective. After all, if you kill off the rest of the party, that's the end of the campaign.

On the other hand, I've seen this plan before, usually from a player that wanted to run the game. Since you've planned to hand your character over as an NPC after the double-cross, I think we can cross that one off. Do remember that once you've betrayed the rest of the group as a character, the other players may be disinclined to trust you regardless of what character you play. Also, your new character will have no more knowledge of the old one than he would have from roleplaying experience.

As for your fellow party members, I do hope none of them are reading this forum. Regardless of how one feels about in-party betrayal, the worst outcome is that a player reads this and spoils the game. Let the chips fall where they may, whether you succeed or not.

What's your plan if the group gets wise to you before you're ready to make your move? Any contingency plans? I did note the earrings (good move), but always have backup plans. It's the mark of a good villain.
David_Roben2
07-20-06, 02:40 PM Great suggestions one and all! I love that the character now has a more focused goal, and now backup plans are the new challenge. He does have an old hideout from the first enemy, that is hidden in the sewers. I'm relatively certain that the rest of the party has forgotten about it. I'm thinking about digging some additional tunnels from it to various front companies to use as escape routes. It will ring a good bell when they eventually track them back to this hideout. Also I've been tossing around the idea of approaching the thieves guild to offer protection money and an interest in a tavern with me as silent partner. Have this tavern offer one free drink a night to every city guardsman to attrack business. Give all the profits to the thieves guild (I can adventure for money). Now I have contacts in the guild and a way to incapacitate the city guard (poison the drinks)the night before I wage a large scale attack.
I definitely want to get the party riled up when he flips, but no one should die. I was thinking perhaps boobytrapping a few more items and make sure that the party is dependant on my abilities when I leave. Give them every reason to hunt me down. By the time I am ready to leave, I should have teleport, so it shouldn't be too difficult to draw out this BBEG into a few sessions.
For all you who are asking, He worships a homebrew god (the Eternal Sage) with domains of time and magic.
The most recent problem I have just realised is that we are playing in a homebrew Ravenloft world. Killing the "King" is going to be a :censored:
RoamingArcher
07-24-06, 05:53 PM If you want to get the party to hate you, hunt you down and beat you down, put Mark of Justice on them, but you might want to arrange a scenario so you can safely and anonomusly put it on them. Have it activate when they plot against you. Also, leave a Geas on them so THEY have to assasainate the king for you. Due it once you've come out of the evil closet, and during a one on one scene between you and them. Now THAT's how you get people to hate you.

You on the other hand, will have a lot of work, explaning and apologizing to do. To make up for it, offer to pay for the pizza at the session when you defect.
Varia
07-24-06, 08:10 PM If the party are reliable allies at the moment, what makes it necessary to betray them? Wouldnt it make more sense to keep them as allies for when youre in power, if you can?

However, if you insist, or if theres a good reason why you need to betray them, then a suggested refinement on the earrings would be to NOT use the darkness thing when you betray. Make other escape plans (just the fact that you can teleport should be enough), and use those instead. Make sure you leave your earrings from the set behind so they know you dont have them anymore. That way their earrings are still secure for communications, and they will likely give your old pair to your new character so he can be in touch with the group. Meanwhile, your new BBEG is cheerfully listening in to their whole "secure" network using his secret master item that the group doesnt know exists. So much fun countering their every move before they make it, and with a little encouragement you can probably drive them nuts trying to root out the spy in their midsts. :P Dont forget that you dont need to counter every plan they make either. Just the dangerous ones is sufficient and is less likely to tip your hand. And dont counter anything at all for a while- let the conspiracy build for a while so when you do strike you can splatter as many co-conspirators as possible at once. That lets your new BBEG eliminate the maximum opposition to him, thus putting the job of dealing with him squarely on the players shoulders (since theyre the only ones left), and will drive the players into a frenzy. Whether its a frenzy of fear, paranoia or rage, its all good. :) And then at the "final" confrontation with the party, THEN you pull out the darkness effect (and whatever else you want to add to the earrings (deafness forinstance would be appropriate for an earring)) and further enrage them, while escaping to fight another day. Dont forget to get the party to pay for these earrings in the first place either, since theyre party items, after all... No reason why you should be out of pocket... :P That works best if you can keep the party ignorant of magic item costs, otherwise you will have to pay to have the darkness etc added yourself. Remember to get them made by someone who wont care about the suspicious extras he's adding to set, and thus wont feel obliged to blab to anyone. A good cover story helps with that.

*Hugs*
Varia
Rerecros
07-24-06, 09:58 PM The Eternal Sage, what are his motives, or does he just hands out magic and ask for nothing in return?
CaoSlayer
07-25-06, 05:02 AM My favorite one it is the masterplan to fame...

Order o arrange the theft of a powerful thing and make your party resolve the trouble and retrieve a false copy...

This way you get the power of the item and the fame for retrieving it back.
Whisper_Swiftblade
07-25-06, 08:14 PM this one is an evil classic, start forming your own police group who are loyal only to you ( maybe try clearics) and useing propeganda to make yourself look like a savyor of the peaple when you start haveing them inforce insain laws on your enimies to justify the exicution of inocents.

another idea is to relice a deadly pox onto the land, and then make it look like you the "great hearo of the the city" have saved them by "finding" the cure (which you natrally had the entire time).

and finaly take power by instegating a war aginst someone who has done nothing to you, or has bee on shaky terms with the town (not unlike what you are doeing with the wild elves but on a larger scale) while acctuly slatering your own peaple and framing the enimy.

once war is in full swing make an attack on a part of your own city that kills many ( use a bomb or somethin) and blame your fellow counsal-men for not working quick enuf to avert the disaster, and suggest that some 9which hear is a strange way of saying all) of the duties involving the military action and leader ship be givin over to an elected counsalman- which will natrally be you.
after all look how your "police" have restored order, and how you tiressly worked to save the lives of your peaple during the times of the grate pox, let's face it because of your propaganda the peaple love you and all the peaple who could have opposed you are long dead.

Once you have the military and the harts of the peaple you have the power, take the rest by force.

now that you are king, make the party the villins and sent an army after them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
David_Roben2 07-18-06, 04:24 PM	I'm looking for some suggestions. Here is the premise: CE is good and all, but my character is LE. My DM ok'ed me to be LE in a good oriented group. The rest of the group is unaware of my alignment. My goals to this point are in line with the rest of the party, so I will help them to the best of my ability. But I am going to set things up for when, not if, I am ready to double cross the party. At that time I will surrender my character to the DM to become the next BBEG. So far I have: Gotten myself appointed as an advisor to a member of the council of elders in the largest city in the area. Have begun to float rumors that a group of wild elves that crossed me early in the campaign have been slaughtering merchant caravans in an attempt to use city resources to wipe them out. Have ordered some magic items (basicly earrings designed to be walkie-talkies) with a master item that allows me to spy on the party via a clairaudience ability. The items also have a triggerable darkness spell centered on the items that my character will use when he is ready to make a daring escape. And then the creative juices dry up. What else can I do to help setup my character's transistion to the bad guy? Anything else I can do to abuse my powers and influence? I have been considering taking Leadership to begin making a following (later to become the evil army). How about some good RPing tips? Current stats: wizard(evoker specialist) 2/cleric 2. Headed for mystic theurge. Planning on giving up the Character around lvl 14-15.
Rerecros 07-18-06, 06:18 PM	Grow a big curly mustache, and start twisting it while giggling to yourself :P Being a BBEG is more than the accessories. One thing you seem to be laking is a master plan. Other than killing wild elves for no reason other than hatred, you haven't mentioned any plans this character has made. What does he want? Money? Power? Women? Being a cleric makes things easier since advancing the plan of an evil deity is a giv'in (unless your a cleric of an idea). Quite simply, until the other PCs stand in the way of your plans I don't see why you would turn on them. An evil character can work along just fine with good characters if they have common goals, and they don't mind each-other's methodologies.
kelvinaw273 07-18-06, 06:29 PM	I concur ... you need to have a set goal for your character that they are working towards, like ruling the world. If you can do this with the help of the rest of the party, great. Don't plan on double-crossing them for the sake of doing it. Actively seek out reasons for your goals to be furthered by their actions. You could arrange things, for example, so that you are the logical choice for ruler of the kingdom and get them to help you attain it ....
David_Roben2 07-18-06, 07:36 PM	Good stuff. At this point, his only motivation is attaining power. He is a bit vengeful with the whole "wipe out an entire tribe because they slighted him" thing. I definitely like the setting himself up as ruler idea, though. Thoughts had already crossed his mind on bumping off a member or three of the council to take over one of their positions. That might be a start to kinghood. The real reason I started this character was solely to give the DM a well rounded and fleshed out BBEG. This is his first DM attempt, (he is doing very well so far) and I wanted to give him a little help. I could sure use some more ideas for nefarious plans to get started on in the meantime. (for my own enjoyment as much as to give the DM plenty of wiggle room when he is running him)
Cifer 07-18-06, 07:50 PM	Well... wanting to become king. The steps in the process would be: -eliminate people who can easily get to know stuff about you. This means that you might work to drive paladins out of the city - detect evil is such a pesky ability that might make others suspicious as soon as you make the more obvious moves towards power -solve problems you made yourself. Hire a group of thugs to take over a bridge and demand toll, then "scare them off" (you might want to kill them afterwards in order to make sure they don't talk) -as soon as you are seen as the most virtuous man in town, see to it that one of the elders is killed. You might even want to assist in his rescuing, but tragically fail. Grow a big curly mustache, and start twisting it while giggling to yourself It's a goatee... mustaches are so yesterday.
Rerecros 07-18-06, 07:58 PM	what are you a cleric of? If you simply must betray your fellow PCs, then I suggest using this to your full advantage. Make yourself in charge of the missions your PCs do. Send them off to kill your enemies but for false reasons. Like an evil cult (a good mission) is creating (destroying) an army of undead and have to be stopped (taken care of). Since many missions in D&D is just go to site A and kill B, most players will not tell the difference between attacking good guys and bad guys, at least until some "badguy" starts summoning celestials.
Gneral Kass 07-18-06, 08:26 PM	Well, try this; a few days (missions, play sessions, whatever) before you make your attempt at becoming king (and after you're next in line for the throne) hire a party of thugs that look similar to the rest of your party. Then hold a party in the king's honor. Make sure your party is off on an escort mission (perhaps bringing in the magical items you ordered) during the party. Assist the hired thugs into the back door of the party then go back around as if you are just arriving. Once inside pull the king away from his guards for a private conversation about some random BS that sounds urgent. Pull the king to a designated spot and watch as the hired thugs mug the king (mortally wound, not kill). When the guards try to give chase stop them by making them take the king to the nearest medic. Make sure the wound is highly poisoned and bleeding, perhaps only a a few minutes of life left after the poison takes hold. Assure them that you will give chase against the traitors. Kill the thugs when you pay them by using a trap of some sort or a poisoned toast to a job well done and dispose of the bodies. When you return to the guards or when the guards find you you should look like you've been in a tussle. Since you're now the rightful king, put a death warrant out on the real party. They'll have no choice but to seek you out for the final confrontation.
Kradlo 07-18-06, 08:59 PM	So you want to double-cross the rest of the party and become the BBEG. Is this a plan that you and the GM have concocted? If it's part of the campaign plot, cool, just be careful not to be too effective. After all, if you kill off the rest of the party, that's the end of the campaign. On the other hand, I've seen this plan before, usually from a player that wanted to run the game. Since you've planned to hand your character over as an NPC after the double-cross, I think we can cross that one off. Do remember that once you've betrayed the rest of the group as a character, the other players may be disinclined to trust you regardless of what character you play. Also, your new character will have no more knowledge of the old one than he would have from roleplaying experience. As for your fellow party members, I do hope none of them are reading this forum. Regardless of how one feels about in-party betrayal, the worst outcome is that a player reads this and spoils the game. Let the chips fall where they may, whether you succeed or not. What's your plan if the group gets wise to you before you're ready to make your move? Any contingency plans? I did note the earrings (good move), but always have backup plans. It's the mark of a good villain.
David_Roben2 07-20-06, 02:40 PM	Great suggestions one and all! I love that the character now has a more focused goal, and now backup plans are the new challenge. He does have an old hideout from the first enemy, that is hidden in the sewers. I'm relatively certain that the rest of the party has forgotten about it. I'm thinking about digging some additional tunnels from it to various front companies to use as escape routes. It will ring a good bell when they eventually track them back to this hideout. Also I've been tossing around the idea of approaching the thieves guild to offer protection money and an interest in a tavern with me as silent partner. Have this tavern offer one free drink a night to every city guardsman to attrack business. Give all the profits to the thieves guild (I can adventure for money). Now I have contacts in the guild and a way to incapacitate the city guard (poison the drinks)the night before I wage a large scale attack. I definitely want to get the party riled up when he flips, but no one should die. I was thinking perhaps boobytrapping a few more items and make sure that the party is dependant on my abilities when I leave. Give them every reason to hunt me down. By the time I am ready to leave, I should have teleport, so it shouldn't be too difficult to draw out this BBEG into a few sessions. For all you who are asking, He worships a homebrew god (the Eternal Sage) with domains of time and magic. The most recent problem I have just realised is that we are playing in a homebrew Ravenloft world. Killing the "King" is going to be a :censored:
RoamingArcher 07-24-06, 05:53 PM	If you want to get the party to hate you, hunt you down and beat you down, put Mark of Justice on them, but you might want to arrange a scenario so you can safely and anonomusly put it on them. Have it activate when they plot against you. Also, leave a Geas on them so THEY have to assasainate the king for you. Due it once you've come out of the evil closet, and during a one on one scene between you and them. Now THAT's how you get people to hate you. You on the other hand, will have a lot of work, explaning and apologizing to do. To make up for it, offer to pay for the pizza at the session when you defect.
Varia 07-24-06, 08:10 PM	If the party are reliable allies at the moment, what makes it necessary to betray them? Wouldnt it make more sense to keep them as allies for when youre in power, if you can? However, if you insist, or if theres a good reason why you need to betray them, then a suggested refinement on the earrings would be to NOT use the darkness thing when you betray. Make other escape plans (just the fact that you can teleport should be enough), and use those instead. Make sure you leave your earrings from the set behind so they know you dont have them anymore. That way their earrings are still secure for communications, and they will likely give your old pair to your new character so he can be in touch with the group. Meanwhile, your new BBEG is cheerfully listening in to their whole "secure" network using his secret master item that the group doesnt know exists. So much fun countering their every move before they make it, and with a little encouragement you can probably drive them nuts trying to root out the spy in their midsts. :P Dont forget that you dont need to counter every plan they make either. Just the dangerous ones is sufficient and is less likely to tip your hand. And dont counter anything at all for a while- let the conspiracy build for a while so when you do strike you can splatter as many co-conspirators as possible at once. That lets your new BBEG eliminate the maximum opposition to him, thus putting the job of dealing with him squarely on the players shoulders (since theyre the only ones left), and will drive the players into a frenzy. Whether its a frenzy of fear, paranoia or rage, its all good. :) And then at the "final" confrontation with the party, THEN you pull out the darkness effect (and whatever else you want to add to the earrings (deafness forinstance would be appropriate for an earring)) and further enrage them, while escaping to fight another day. Dont forget to get the party to pay for these earrings in the first place either, since theyre party items, after all... No reason why you should be out of pocket... :P That works best if you can keep the party ignorant of magic item costs, otherwise you will have to pay to have the darkness etc added yourself. Remember to get them made by someone who wont care about the suspicious extras he's adding to set, and thus wont feel obliged to blab to anyone. A good cover story helps with that. Hugs Varia
Rerecros 07-24-06, 09:58 PM	The Eternal Sage, what are his motives, or does he just hands out magic and ask for nothing in return?
CaoSlayer 07-25-06, 05:02 AM	My favorite one it is the masterplan to fame... Order o arrange the theft of a powerful thing and make your party resolve the trouble and retrieve a false copy... This way you get the power of the item and the fame for retrieving it back.
Whisper_Swiftblade 07-25-06, 08:14 PM	this one is an evil classic, start forming your own police group who are loyal only to you ( maybe try clearics) and useing propeganda to make yourself look like a savyor of the peaple when you start haveing them inforce insain laws on your enimies to justify the exicution of inocents. another idea is to relice a deadly pox onto the land, and then make it look like you the "great hearo of the the city" have saved them by "finding" the cure (which you natrally had the entire time). and finaly take power by instegating a war aginst someone who has done nothing to you, or has bee on shaky terms with the town (not unlike what you are doeing with the wild elves but on a larger scale) while acctuly slatering your own peaple and framing the enimy. once war is in full swing make an attack on a part of your own city that kills many ( use a bomb or somethin) and blame your fellow counsal-men for not working quick enuf to avert the disaster, and suggest that some 9which hear is a strange way of saying all) of the duties involving the military action and leader ship be givin over to an elected counsalman- which will natrally be you. after all look how your "police" have restored order, and how you tiressly worked to save the lives of your peaple during the times of the grate pox, let's face it because of your propaganda the peaple love you and all the peaple who could have opposed you are long dead. Once you have the military and the harts of the peaple you have the power, take the rest by force. now that you are king, make the party the villins and sent an army after them.