Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragon Ryder 04-27-04, 04:00 PM	I have a question that I feel I already know the answer to but I am going to ask anyways. I love playing the sorcerer but I have never played him as evil. One reason I want to play him as evil is because I want to multi-class him with an Assasign. I think that would be really fun to play. And in order to be an assasign you have to be "any evil." The problem with this is we have a cleric of Pelor. And a cleric of Moradin in our group. Is there anyway that would work? Or would they try to kill each other the entire time? Has anyone ever seen this before? Or am I asking the impossible? Or perhaps is there a way that a neutral assasign could be had? Because not all assasigns are "evil" there are some good ones that assasinate for good causes. Would that be a decision that the DM has to make? Or am I again asking the impossible?
Edymnion 04-27-04, 04:50 PM	The classic D&D answer applies here, ask your DM. He's the one you gotta convince to let you play an Assassin in a good group. Perhaps he will allow you to take the class without the alignment prereq. However, if he doesn't want that kind of character in the game, you won't be able to do it anyway (its a PrC, he has every right to say no to it for whatever reason he wants). Generally though, no, its not going to be a good idea to try and be an evil assassin in a party with not one but two clerics of good deities. Lol, you sure there isn't a Paladin in there to round it out? :angel:
Quenditar 04-27-04, 05:54 PM	First, I agree with everything Edymnion said. Also, don't forget that a lot of DMs don't like evil characters in their games. Assuming your plan works, remember that you will have to keep your homicidal activities doubly well-hidden. And don't go around showing that you're evil. A ring of mind shielding or some other magic item that prevents your alignment from being detected may come in handy. And do some good deeds every now and then. Not because you actually want to help the suckers, but to keep the clerics off your back and keep them thinking that you're neutral. But yes, sooner or later you'll probably slip up and have the clerics and anyone else in the party who doesn't approve of murder after you. Be prepared.
Michaelot 04-27-04, 06:41 PM	I agree with what has been said, but personally I do disagree with the prereq of being evil in order to be an assassin. Many notable men in history that were good men have been assissins They lived by a moral code, "If taking out this one person who has escaped justice brings about a greater good than so be it." They assassinated these evil leaders at the request of a righteous Noble King, Majestrate or Ruler. Think of all the drug dealers in our world who are assissinated by good men or soldiers. I believe the difference is an evil assassin just kills for hire or personal gain, while a good one considers the cause and the greater good there would be if that person were gone. With this is in mind you could be even lawful depending on the realm you were in, but I would not recommend being true neutral. The most dangerous assassin is one that is completely neutral, neither side knows if he can be trusted; therefore if your DM agrees I would recommend gving your character a Neutral Good alignment. And this should make it so the Clerics would get along with you for the most part.
Tony Vargas 04-27-04, 07:34 PM	If you're just thinking about going Assassin later, you can start as nuetral, and turn evil later - maybe only after your first 'job.' But, keep in mind that the PrC is more than just a set of abilities: you actually join this guild of evil killers-for-hire, and have duties to them. Doesn't strike me as the greatest career path. You may well be able to acquire the skills and abilities you need with other classes. Rogue and Ranger, for instance.
Edymnion 04-27-04, 08:59 PM	One of the very definitions of Evil in D&D is "Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit". The Assassin's Guild doesn't care if the target is innocent or guilty, they kill regardless of alignment or mitigating factors. Have there been real life Good assassins? Yes, there have been. Have there been any real life people that made their profession as a murderer for hire who didn't care who they killed or why they killed as long as they got payed, that would still be what D&D defines as a Good alignment? No, I don't think there have been. Anybody can be an assassin, as in anybody can assassinate (to kill for political reasons) another person. That isn't what the PrC is about. The Assassin PrC is an organized group of people who train for the express purpose of killing indescriminatly. Heck, one of the entry pre-reqs is to kill an innocent person for absolutely no reason other than to get into the guild. By becoming an Assassin, you HAVE to do what the Guild tells you. You HAVE to kill whoever they say, without question. If they say you are to kill the 6 year old daughter of the king, then you have to kill an innocent little kid. Otherwise, the Guild will kill YOU. I don't see how you could possibly keep a good alignment, which is defined by protecting the innocent, when its your job to do the exact opposite. However, you can always talk to your DM. You can always try to work out a new tailor PrC based on the Assassin that doesn't have to be Evil, that isn't forced to do Evil things every time it turns around. Talk to your DM, see what you can work out. The first answer to any question like this should always be "Talk to your DM." He's the one that controls your game, not us. Doesn't matter what we tell you if he won't go along with it.
Carnios 04-28-04, 06:16 AM	Look at the prestige class: Slayer of Domiel in the BoED
Leap 04-28-04, 07:32 AM	Don’t confuse “willing to carry out assassination” with “being an Assassin [class]”…..they are not the same.
Naeron 04-28-04, 12:51 PM	The best approach would be to talk to your DM and propose an assasisn prestige class of another alignment. For example you could create a Neutral aligned Assassin based Prc. You should lose the class ability to use poison (perhaps replace it with the ability to only use poisoned weapons) and the PrC should gain the restriction that you cannot progress in the PrC if you become non-neutral. The requirement to kill someone solely for the purpose of becoming an assassin can remain as it is just a test, the killing would always be one that a Neutral Assassin would make in any case. Such an Assassin would never kill for money nor would they kill the innocent. Rather they would kill those who are deserving of death.
Michaelot 04-28-04, 01:21 PM	Have there been any real life people that made their profession as a murderer for hire who didn't care who they killed or why they killed as long as they got payed, that would still be what D&D defines as a Good alignment? No, I don't think there have been. I guess I did not explain that well enough. I agree with you. What I am saying is yes, Anyone who only cares about getting paid for their assassin service is evil. I don't see how you could possibly keep a good alignment, which is defined by protecting the innocent, when its your job to do the exact opposite. How an assassin can be good and I will give historical reference. 1. The Guilds formed by the Jews to train assassins after their temple again was razed and burned. They rasied them and they were quite good for the purpose of defending large populations by taking out wicked men in leadership position or co-conspirators. They were used to incite fear into Evil doers for their deeds would not go unpunished. They used them for venegenance against the crimes that had been committed against them. (Sounds like a religious order of assassins to me) 2. Even before that the Masons on Solomon's temple established a branch within their guild that was directly linked to assassination. They Assissinated for a cause, protecting their Gods house, Gods People, while trying to give them hope that Evil does not go unpunished, In Public they looked like Priests/Monks, they tolerated their enemies with compassion by day, but if the line was crossed at night vengenace was extracted, However they were compassionate as a Paladin to the poor, the weak, the feeble and the oppressed. They were the epitome of making things "fair" Traces fo this masonic organization branch can be traced back to 600 B.C. and their is evidence it is even older. 3. The word assassin itself it not well represented anymore. The original words comes from the the Arabic Langauge from the word "Hashashin". Which means "Hashish Smoker". (They smoke Hashish before their attempts as an attempt to get visions into how it should all be carried out according to Allah's will) During the Crusades they were special Muslim warriors who were a "one man army." They were used against the Knights of Templar and others during the crusades. But to their people they were heros and they were kind, benevolent to all sometimes even their enemies, but not those considered worthy of death due to crimes committed against their people. Eventually the Knights of Templar began to be incorporated assassins into their "Holy Order." Of course all this spun off an people became corrupt and we see the ancient fractions today, but some stayed true to their cause and are less known. Nevetheless many were good to the people they served. Some assissins used the goods and plunder they inheritly ran into to rebuild the broken homes of their people. That is a far cry from self interest and surely shows communal considerations...The ones who kept the money were generally the ones who became corrupt later. Gathering all the dictionary meanings you can find on assassins it does not say anywhere "evil" It says: Assassin = Someone is part of an orginization (political, religious, or trade, etc.) that murders or kills for political, religious, or some times personal gain. A guild = An association of people with similar interests or pursuits; or a medieval association of merchants or craftsmen. This was to just answer your question about how you could not see how being good could be the case. My point is you could have a class that is opposite of the Assassin, alignemnt wise, but still has all the benefits except with Holier abilities, etc compared to darker abilities. Of course this class would have to be created AND YOUR DM WOULD HAVE TO AGREE, but I don't see why not? Why would there only be one Assassins guild? Why would the wicked only use it when religions have used it as a means to defend their people? There is historical precedence, so I don't see the problem. This would make your character Dragon Ryder get along with the Clerics in your group a little better...you could really make it interesting by having them have ties to the same religious organization, and that your character just happens to be from a different branch of that religion. This opens up an awesome storyline for your character but also makes him the target of evil assassinators. Have your DM look at what I have posted. I think reasonably anyone would agree, but you would be bound to that organization and have to carry out their "holy" designs, which any assassin must do...this could cause a little tension.
ehrin 04-28-04, 01:40 PM	Gotta agree with Edymnion and the game rules... being an assassin in DnD means being EVIL, and being EVIL is a culpable, almost physical thing. There sure can be many groups like Michaelot describes that are not "evil" and they perform assassinations, etc. But, they are not DnD assassins. Doesn't matter what the dictionary in the real world says, in DnD an assassin is a class of characters that must be evil. A DnD Assassin kills simply to kill. Random, for money, for orders, whatever. They kill what they are told to. To even BE a DnD Assassin, you must simply kill someone, anyone, to get it, for no other reason that to prove your willingness to take innocent lives. You might try a LE assassin, of the James Bond order: He kills by order, and by his own self directive. He works for a "good" organization, but sometimes that means squat, as he is ordered to kill, and he doesn't question those orders. Your character can have all kinds of moral values, even hate what he is forced to do at times, but bottom line is, he keeps doing it, and taking the money, power, whatever, that comes along with being an assassin. But, no matter how "changed" you are or how much atonement you do for yourself, you still must live with the fact that you killed an innocent life simply to prove that you could. Or, you can be an almost assassin, and be very good (like Michaelot's examples), you just can't call yourself a PrC assassin.