Evil Troubles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Evil Troubles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kalriem
11-27-04, 12:39 AM In my group I have decided to go down the evil :evillaugh (or at least, not so good) path. The other characters don't like this, and it might even come down to open hostilities in the group. I have already been threatened, and I have no reason to think they are bluffing. :raincloud
I am playing 2 char, as my sister decided that she didn't want to play anymore, and I have already drawn up plans for my escape and revenge on the unsespecting goodie too shoes :schemes:. Should I strike preemptivley, try to wrigle my way out with fast talking, or wait for them to strike first? :waits:
Gedrin
11-27-04, 01:56 AM From a character point, I suppose it depends on how much of a traitorous bastard your character is. Presumably, these are your former comrades in arms, who have yet to actually do you harm.

From a player point of view, I would strongly recomend against initiating hostilities against fellow party members. Only the best and strongest of gaming groups can handle this on an out-of-character level.

It appears that your character is walking a path that has parted from that of his former friends. I'm not seeing a good reason to kill them just because of this. If your character is leaving the party, your character should leave the party.
Wanting to do things differently than the rest of your office is no reason to kill your coworkers.
You shouldn't really be surprised if the "do gooders" have a problem with your evil acts. It's probably obvious in game that they're the sort of people who normally go out to stop evil acts. Becoming a person who acts evilly in their presence is really just asking to be "stopped".

In most situations wher I have seen this type of conflict rise, the argument of "my character is just heading this way naturally" is used to justify poor sportsmanship on the behalf of the player. I'm not saying this is the case, but you should keep in mind that you are choosing for your character to act in a way that is obviously going to bring great conflict with the other characters.

My advice, in either case, have your character go off to work in the world on his own and find a new life apart from the current party. Retire the character. Make a new one. Currently you're heading toward the kinds of actions that break apart campaigns.

If you wonder why you should retire your character, instead of the rest of the party acomodating you... Your fun is not more important than everyone elses at the table.

If you understand that already, good deal. You shouldn't have any problem discussing it with your group and comming to a solution that doesn't wind up busting apart the group or ruining the entire campaign.
Lord_Anthrax
11-27-04, 05:04 AM 1)Is your DM okay with this? If not, retire your character or turn him over to the DM to come back and harass the PC's later.

2)Are your fellow players okay with this? If not, retire your character or turn him over to the DM to come back and harass the PC's later.

3)If the above answers are yes, have fun being an evil bastard. :cool:
Shard of Suzail
11-27-04, 06:27 AM The chances are that, should your character no longer get along with the party, that you`ll either have to retire it or that it will become an npc under the gm's control. I wouldnt get too attached to your evil career, as, if it isnt moving in the same direction of the group in a manner they can live with, then it isnt moving anywhere at all.

If you had the strength of arms and allies to take over the group, then things may be different, but where they unite against you, it`s time to pack up your bags and make something new.
The Morninglord
11-27-04, 09:09 AM I agree with what has been said, but would like to add something.

As a DM I would ask the player to hand his character sheet over to me (making the character an npc) and write up a new PC if things turned out this way. I have nothing against evil characters in a party. What I don't tolerate, though, is disruptive characters. Many players seems to equal evil with maniacal killers, but there are other ways to be evil without killing the other PCs. Smart evil characters realize they can use the others for their own benefit and to further their own plans. So, if anyone came to me and asked to play an evil character (in a neutral to good party), I'd reply that if he could provide me with a good reason why this character would stay with the party as well as tell me his future goals, then maybe I'd allow him.

This is just my take on the situation, but I'm not your DM, so this may not matter in the end.
e-z0r
11-27-04, 10:02 AM I agree wholeheartedly with The Morninglord.

The Evil characters are supposed to be the smart ones, while dumbness is all the rage among good chars.

Generally, evil characters that I write are simply ones that will do the same stuff in a party that any good character would do (meaning, quest with them, slay monsters, get money and exp and such), and then further his own goals behind the backs of those who think he's "their friend". The fools. This way, having an evil character doesn't have to disrupt the GMs story intentions and doesn't have to create conflict between the players (as the out of character players are more prone to respecting your evil choices when they see that it's motivated by some goal the character actually has, instead of them thinking that you actually want to just be an a5shole.)
Thorak
11-27-04, 11:30 AM The moment you decide to work against the party, unless it's a plot point you've fabricated with the DM and you intend to then double-cross your employers to help the party, your character should be an NPC. And even in that situation, as a player you know your character is going to help them. If you, as a player, have decided to make your character betray the party, do yourself and everyone in your group a favour and either hand your character sheet to the DM with an explanation of why you can't play them any more and they should become an NPC, or have your character slit their wrists the next time you camp.

It's perfectly possible to be Evil in a party, and retain party cohesiveness. If you're using it as an excuse to attack them, you don't really want to play a party game, you want to play a deathmatch arena game. Go play Tekken or an FPS or something.
Kalriem
11-27-04, 12:04 PM I probobly should mention that I havn't done any evil acts. Yet.
I just changed my alighnment to evil, so that I could take some cool classes, such as the Entropomancer.
ShadowDragon8685
11-27-04, 01:22 PM I cannot abide Evil characters.

D&D is about being heroic, not villianous. If you want to see villiany, play any MMORPG. Everyone on any of those games is Lawful Evil. Or play Diablo II - Chaotic Evil!

You need to retire this character, hand the sheet over to the DM, and create a pure-hearted Good character to continue with the party. Unless you intend to be redeemed at some point.
BlueFlames
11-27-04, 02:09 PM Being a character counter to the party's alignment can be quite fun, but you have to go about doing it the right way. Putting "Evil" on your character sheet and running with it is most definately not the right way.

Instead, what you should have done (or perhaps could still do) is take your DM aside and tell him what you want to do. If he tells you 'no' then just kill the idea where it stands or shelve the character sheet for a later campaign. If he agrees, however, put a fake alignment on your sheet (Lawful Neutral instead of Lawful Evil, or something of that nature) and play the character. With luck, your DM will work with your counter alignment while developing the plot, which can make for a really fun experience for all involved. Assuming your bluff checks work out, you could even end up being the BBEG in the end. Nothing quite like seeing the looks on other players' faces when they find out a quarter or a fifth of their experience went to beefing up the villain.

It's really all about getting your DM's approval and being secretive.
Thorak
11-27-04, 07:50 PM I cannot abide Evil characters.

D&D is about being heroic, not villianous. If you want to see villiany, play any MMORPG. Everyone on any of those games is Lawful Evil. Or play Diablo II - Chaotic Evil!

You need to retire this character, hand the sheet over to the DM, and create a pure-hearted Good character to continue with the party. Unless you intend to be redeemed at some point.
Raistlin Majere and Gerald Tarrant come to mind as good examples of great heroic, and yet horribly horribly Evil, characters from fiction. The former, of course, is from the Dragonlance D&D world, and the latter is from C.S. Friedman's Coldfire trilogy; Black Sun Rising, When True Night Falls, and Crown of Shadows. I heartily suggest the latter for anyone who doesn't believe Evil can work in a party; Tarrant is perfectly believable, and is the epitome of someone who is Lawful Evil by D&D terminology. And he's more horrible than many villains in novels.

Evil can be heroic and great in a party. As long as the player isn't a douche about it and intends to play in a party-friendly way.
Encard
11-27-04, 09:45 PM I'm going to have to go with what others have already said here... Disruptive characters don't tend to last long, since they (with very good reason) irritate the DM and everyone else playing. Don't get too attached to your characters if you plan on making them disruptive.

I just changed my alighnment to evil, so that I could take some cool classes, such as the Entropomancer.
Uh... So, wait... The whole reason for your alignment switch is powergaming? Now, I have nothing againt optimizing characters to fit a concept, but I'm curious as to how your DM will react to you switching the alignment of a character just to optimize it. I'm guessing a not-so-good reaction. Or did you mean something else by "cool classes?"

Thorak: definitely very good book suggestions. The Coldfire trilogy was great, both as a set of novels and as an example of an evil character who works as a party member.
Bringslite
11-27-04, 10:11 PM Boo! Thumbs Down! Roleplaying evil does not have to mean party destruction and campaign ruin. If you do not have enough imagination to role play evil and add to the campaign then retire the character.
Kalriem
11-28-04, 12:15 AM I cannot abide Evil characters.

D&D is about being heroic, not villianous. If you want to see villiany, play any MMORPG. Everyone on any of those games is Lawful Evil. Or play Diablo II - Chaotic Evil!

You need to retire this character, hand the sheet over to the DM, and create a pure-hearted Good character to continue with the party. Unless you intend to be redeemed at some point.

Originally Posted byEncard
Uh... So, wait... The whole reason for your alignment switch is powergaming? Now, I have nothing againt optimizing characters to fit a concept, but I'm curious as to how your DM will react to you switching the alignment of a character just to optimize it. I'm guessing a not-so-good reaction. Or did you mean something else by "cool classes?"

Great big WRONG!!! A D&D game is geared towords being evil as much as it is toword good.
No MMORPG has the flexibility of any D&D game. Most MMORPGs dont have the flexibility of a normal RPG.
And Diablo 2 is not a RPG. I dont know which screw up thought it was, but D2 has no choices, no variation, no moral delemas. Last I checked an RPG had to have at least some of these.
Not entirely. I do have a great story behind my change, and some really cool ideas. The DM seems at lest willing to listen to them, if not enthused about some.
Wonderfull point about Gerald Tarrant especialy, Thorak. I was planing to go in a simmilar direction, either that or be nuteral. :D
The main reason for a change in alighnment is, I guess, that I have always played a good char. Not just a good char, but a char who has goodness positively seeping out his pores.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kalriem 11-27-04, 12:39 AM	In my group I have decided to go down the evil :evillaugh (or at least, not so good) path. The other characters don't like this, and it might even come down to open hostilities in the group. I have already been threatened, and I have no reason to think they are bluffing. :raincloud I am playing 2 char, as my sister decided that she didn't want to play anymore, and I have already drawn up plans for my escape and revenge on the unsespecting goodie too shoes :schemes:. Should I strike preemptivley, try to wrigle my way out with fast talking, or wait for them to strike first? :waits:
Gedrin 11-27-04, 01:56 AM	From a character point, I suppose it depends on how much of a traitorous bastard your character is. Presumably, these are your former comrades in arms, who have yet to actually do you harm. From a player point of view, I would strongly recomend against initiating hostilities against fellow party members. Only the best and strongest of gaming groups can handle this on an out-of-character level. It appears that your character is walking a path that has parted from that of his former friends. I'm not seeing a good reason to kill them just because of this. If your character is leaving the party, your character should leave the party. Wanting to do things differently than the rest of your office is no reason to kill your coworkers. You shouldn't really be surprised if the "do gooders" have a problem with your evil acts. It's probably obvious in game that they're the sort of people who normally go out to stop evil acts. Becoming a person who acts evilly in their presence is really just asking to be "stopped". In most situations wher I have seen this type of conflict rise, the argument of "my character is just heading this way naturally" is used to justify poor sportsmanship on the behalf of the player. I'm not saying this is the case, but you should keep in mind that you are choosing for your character to act in a way that is obviously going to bring great conflict with the other characters. My advice, in either case, have your character go off to work in the world on his own and find a new life apart from the current party. Retire the character. Make a new one. Currently you're heading toward the kinds of actions that break apart campaigns. If you wonder why you should retire your character, instead of the rest of the party acomodating you... Your fun is not more important than everyone elses at the table. If you understand that already, good deal. You shouldn't have any problem discussing it with your group and comming to a solution that doesn't wind up busting apart the group or ruining the entire campaign.
Lord_Anthrax 11-27-04, 05:04 AM	1)Is your DM okay with this? If not, retire your character or turn him over to the DM to come back and harass the PC's later. 2)Are your fellow players okay with this? If not, retire your character or turn him over to the DM to come back and harass the PC's later. 3)If the above answers are yes, have fun being an evil bastard. :cool:
Shard of Suzail 11-27-04, 06:27 AM	The chances are that, should your character no longer get along with the party, that you`ll either have to retire it or that it will become an npc under the gm's control. I wouldnt get too attached to your evil career, as, if it isnt moving in the same direction of the group in a manner they can live with, then it isnt moving anywhere at all. If you had the strength of arms and allies to take over the group, then things may be different, but where they unite against you, it`s time to pack up your bags and make something new.
The Morninglord 11-27-04, 09:09 AM	I agree with what has been said, but would like to add something. As a DM I would ask the player to hand his character sheet over to me (making the character an npc) and write up a new PC if things turned out this way. I have nothing against evil characters in a party. What I don't tolerate, though, is disruptive characters. Many players seems to equal evil with maniacal killers, but there are other ways to be evil without killing the other PCs. Smart evil characters realize they can use the others for their own benefit and to further their own plans. So, if anyone came to me and asked to play an evil character (in a neutral to good party), I'd reply that if he could provide me with a good reason why this character would stay with the party as well as tell me his future goals, then maybe I'd allow him. This is just my take on the situation, but I'm not your DM, so this may not matter in the end.
e-z0r 11-27-04, 10:02 AM	I agree wholeheartedly with The Morninglord. The Evil characters are supposed to be the smart ones, while dumbness is all the rage among good chars. Generally, evil characters that I write are simply ones that will do the same stuff in a party that any good character would do (meaning, quest with them, slay monsters, get money and exp and such), and then further his own goals behind the backs of those who think he's "their friend". The fools. This way, having an evil character doesn't have to disrupt the GMs story intentions and doesn't have to create conflict between the players (as the out of character players are more prone to respecting your evil choices when they see that it's motivated by some goal the character actually has, instead of them thinking that you actually want to just be an a5shole.)
Thorak 11-27-04, 11:30 AM	The moment you decide to work against the party, unless it's a plot point you've fabricated with the DM and you intend to then double-cross your employers to help the party, your character should be an NPC. And even in that situation, as a player you know your character is going to help them. If you, as a player, have decided to make your character betray the party, do yourself and everyone in your group a favour and either hand your character sheet to the DM with an explanation of why you can't play them any more and they should become an NPC, or have your character slit their wrists the next time you camp. It's perfectly possible to be Evil in a party, and retain party cohesiveness. If you're using it as an excuse to attack them, you don't really want to play a party game, you want to play a deathmatch arena game. Go play Tekken or an FPS or something.
Kalriem 11-27-04, 12:04 PM	I probobly should mention that I havn't done any evil acts. Yet. I just changed my alighnment to evil, so that I could take some cool classes, such as the Entropomancer.
ShadowDragon8685 11-27-04, 01:22 PM	I cannot abide Evil characters. D&D is about being heroic, not villianous. If you want to see villiany, play any MMORPG. Everyone on any of those games is Lawful Evil. Or play Diablo II - Chaotic Evil! You need to retire this character, hand the sheet over to the DM, and create a pure-hearted Good character to continue with the party. Unless you intend to be redeemed at some point.
BlueFlames 11-27-04, 02:09 PM	Being a character counter to the party's alignment can be quite fun, but you have to go about doing it the right way. Putting "Evil" on your character sheet and running with it is most definately not the right way. Instead, what you should have done (or perhaps could still do) is take your DM aside and tell him what you want to do. If he tells you 'no' then just kill the idea where it stands or shelve the character sheet for a later campaign. If he agrees, however, put a fake alignment on your sheet (Lawful Neutral instead of Lawful Evil, or something of that nature) and play the character. With luck, your DM will work with your counter alignment while developing the plot, which can make for a really fun experience for all involved. Assuming your bluff checks work out, you could even end up being the BBEG in the end. Nothing quite like seeing the looks on other players' faces when they find out a quarter or a fifth of their experience went to beefing up the villain. It's really all about getting your DM's approval and being secretive.
Thorak 11-27-04, 07:50 PM	I cannot abide Evil characters. D&D is about being heroic, not villianous. If you want to see villiany, play any MMORPG. Everyone on any of those games is Lawful Evil. Or play Diablo II - Chaotic Evil! You need to retire this character, hand the sheet over to the DM, and create a pure-hearted Good character to continue with the party. Unless you intend to be redeemed at some point. Raistlin Majere and Gerald Tarrant come to mind as good examples of great heroic, and yet horribly horribly Evil, characters from fiction. The former, of course, is from the Dragonlance D&D world, and the latter is from C.S. Friedman's Coldfire trilogy; Black Sun Rising, When True Night Falls, and Crown of Shadows. I heartily suggest the latter for anyone who doesn't believe Evil can work in a party; Tarrant is perfectly believable, and is the epitome of someone who is Lawful Evil by D&D terminology. And he's more horrible than many villains in novels. Evil can be heroic and great in a party. As long as the player isn't a douche about it and intends to play in a party-friendly way.
Encard 11-27-04, 09:45 PM	I'm going to have to go with what others have already said here... Disruptive characters don't tend to last long, since they (with very good reason) irritate the DM and everyone else playing. Don't get too attached to your characters if you plan on making them disruptive. I just changed my alighnment to evil, so that I could take some cool classes, such as the Entropomancer. Uh... So, wait... The whole reason for your alignment switch is powergaming? Now, I have nothing againt optimizing characters to fit a concept, but I'm curious as to how your DM will react to you switching the alignment of a character just to optimize it. I'm guessing a not-so-good reaction. Or did you mean something else by "cool classes?" Thorak: definitely very good book suggestions. The Coldfire trilogy was great, both as a set of novels and as an example of an evil character who works as a party member.
Bringslite 11-27-04, 10:11 PM	Boo! Thumbs Down! Roleplaying evil does not have to mean party destruction and campaign ruin. If you do not have enough imagination to role play evil and add to the campaign then retire the character.
Kalriem 11-28-04, 12:15 AM	I cannot abide Evil characters. D&D is about being heroic, not villianous. If you want to see villiany, play any MMORPG. Everyone on any of those games is Lawful Evil. Or play Diablo II - Chaotic Evil! You need to retire this character, hand the sheet over to the DM, and create a pure-hearted Good character to continue with the party. Unless you intend to be redeemed at some point. Originally Posted byEncard Uh... So, wait... The whole reason for your alignment switch is powergaming? Now, I have nothing againt optimizing characters to fit a concept, but I'm curious as to how your DM will react to you switching the alignment of a character just to optimize it. I'm guessing a not-so-good reaction. Or did you mean something else by "cool classes?" Great big WRONG!!! A D&D game is geared towords being evil as much as it is toword good. No MMORPG has the flexibility of any D&D game. Most MMORPGs dont have the flexibility of a normal RPG. And Diablo 2 is not a RPG. I dont know which screw up thought it was, but D2 has no choices, no variation, no moral delemas. Last I checked an RPG had to have at least some of these. Not entirely. I do have a great story behind my change, and some really cool ideas. The DM seems at lest willing to listen to them, if not enthused about some. Wonderfull point about Gerald Tarrant especialy, Thorak. I was planing to go in a simmilar direction, either that or be nuteral. :D The main reason for a change in alighnment is, I guess, that I have always played a good char. Not just a good char, but a char who has goodness positively seeping out his pores.