Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crowclub 04-19-07, 02:10 PM	If a Neutral aligned character casts a spell with the [Evil] descriptor is that an evil act? If in a party of say, Fighter Paladin Cleric Wizard one of the spell casters (that has a Neutral God and is neutral on the Good~Evil axis) casts say, Summon Undead to summon a Mummy to help out in a fight against evil creatures. Is/should the Paladin think ..we're all on the same side united against these evil creature (and therefore ok-ish with the Mummy helping out, in the knowledge it's a summoned being on his side being controlled by a party member).... OR ..Hell thats an undead critter, be gone you evil foul thing (and attack the summoned mummy as well as the bad guys in no particular order) ??
WarColonel 04-19-07, 02:27 PM	A paladin with above-average intelligence (say the 8-11 range) would certainly realize that attacking an ally's pet, be it undead or not, is a bad idea. Of course, after the battle, he will probably have a thing or two to say to the person summoning undead and daemons in battle. And not just a paladin. LG and NG would both likely want to have a talk with this person about the "abominations" they are consorting with. A CG character, maybe not so much, Chaotic characters tend to be more open and forgivving of people's "quirks", but even they would make sure the summoner knew his minions were not approved. So no, I doubt a paladin would attack the summoned mummy unless he is one of those "righteous" paladins in need of a stick removed from his ***. Oh, and the initial question: casting {Evil} spells may make you slightly evil, but it is certainly not something like eating babies.
Puca 04-19-07, 02:29 PM	If a Neutral aligned character casts a spell with the [Evil] descriptor is that an evil act?Yes. My opinion, but yeah. Is/should the Paladin think ..we're all on the same side united against these evil creature (and therefore ok-ish with the Mummy helping out, in the knowledge it's a summoned being on his side being controlled by a party member).... OR ..Hell thats an undead critter, be gone you evil foul thing (and attack the summoned mummy as well as the bad guys in no particular order) ??Does he know you summoned it? Does he know you control it? If not, Id think hed attack it. If he does know, I doubt he would. Does he know it is an [evil] spell? That takes a Spellcraft check. I mean, it might be pretty obvious, but you know, if he doesnt think the caster is evil, he might be inclined to want to believe you if you tell him it isnt an evil spell. If he does make his Spellcraft check, it depends on the personality, but he would know it is an evil spell, and he would not be cool with that. Regardless, whether he knows it is evil or not, he would still have problems with using undead or other evil creatures. If you respect him, even if not his values, I dont think youd use evil spells (when he can see the results.)
stackmachine 04-19-07, 02:33 PM	beware my friend, as you are about to start a pally-alignment threat. those don't end good usually. on the question at hand: one might rightfully say that it is the intention and usage of resources that defines what is good or what is evil. thus the end justified the means. if your group was okay with it, fine. the choice is okay for a true neutral summoner and wont make him evil, unless he order the bugger to attack innocents... a very code-adherend played pally would be offended by such summoning: enlisting the (even temporary) help of such a foul creature? unthinkable! better summon something else, since there's plenty of options. in my book though an evil descriptor doesn't make the casting a bad thing. it's what you do with it. maximized enervation on the big bad cleric? vampiric touching his champion? that's a good thing, most certainly sir! have fun!
Kouk 04-19-07, 03:09 PM	on the question at hand: one might rightfully say that it is the intention and usage of resources that defines what is good or what is evil. thus the end justified the means. Your newfangled moral relativism has no place here sir! Anyway ask the DM if casting Evil spells makes you evil. Maybe he wants to houserule that there is no good or evil, or somesuch. As for the Paladin, it depends on his god, and his own personality. If the god says "Kill all undead on sight no matter what" he may very well kill the mummy (as soon as the immediate threat is gone). If the Pally's religion is more laid back, it might be OK just to nag the summoner constantly about it.
crowclub 04-19-07, 03:53 PM	Ok thanks for that. The actual situation is a little (ok, a lot) different to the one I've decribed but I wanted a more obviously polar example. I'm about to enter a game with an Lawful Neutral Archivist and he has Summon Undead V in his Prayerbook. The party has no Paladins (thank the gods!!) but does have a LN Elven Monk/Cleric and a Human X?G Cleric. The Elf is quite snooty and almost certainly isn't going to like [evil] spells. I really like Mummy's and damn it, I'm going to summon them with this character :D I like the view point that ..the ends justify the means.. so I'll probably have to flogg that some to argue my case!
Ubasrawr 04-19-07, 04:01 PM	Ok thanks for that. The actual situation is a little (ok, a lot) different to the one I've decribed but I wanted a more obviously polar example. I'm about to enter a game with an Lawful Neutral Archivist and he has Summon Undead V in his Prayerbook. The party has no Paladins (thank the gods!!) but does have a LN Elven Monk/Cleric and a Human X?G Cleric. The Elf is quite snooty and almost certainly isn't going to like [evil] spells. I really like Mummy's and damn it, I'm going to summon them with this character :D I like the view point that ..the ends justify the means.. so I'll probably have to flogg that some to argue my case! Those strictly speeking from his alignment LN the monk could or could not have a problem with it. Maybe a righteous Cleric of torm or something alike might nag you a lot about that undead you summoned, after the immediate thread is gone.
Brehon 04-19-07, 04:04 PM	If a Neutral aligned character casts a spell with the [Evil] descriptor is that an evil act? No. No. No. Is casting a spell with a [Good] descriptor a good act? Of course not. Those descriptors are there solely to manage the mechanical interactions of those spells. Otherwise, the Dread Necromancer Lord spends all of his free time casting protection from evil to counteract all of his villainous deeds. Which is just silly.
Puca 04-19-07, 04:08 PM	I like the view point that ..the ends justify the means.. so I'll probably have to flogg that some to argue my case!Crow, you better talk to your DM. The "ends justify the means" mentaility can earn you a big E on your character sheet in a game where good and evil are absolute. Your DM can tell you his view, and its the one that counts.
sizbut 04-19-07, 04:53 PM	Depends of situation and frequency. This weekend my Lawful Good cleric used an inflict moderate wounds scroll to help take down an ogre - a justified and necessary action, not evil. Now if my lawful cleric wandered around with things like inflict spells and bestow curse on a regular basis then the DM (in the guise of the clerics deity) would have the right to challenge. But it still best to establish the boundaries. A single instance of animate dead would is absolutely non-good behaviour for my DM.
Puca 04-19-07, 04:59 PM	Neither Inflict spells nor Bestow Curse has the [evil] tag. If DM faulted my good cleric for preparing them, I would look for the exit. It isnt a game breaker, but if hes going to do that.... Animate Dead does have the [evil]. Im certain there is a thread active discussing it. Now, I think casting a spell with that tag is an evil act. But Im not his DM.
Radijs 04-19-07, 05:08 PM	If I where playing he Palading I'd probably go spare after the fight. Friend or no friend he summoned an udead creature. He would get a righteous earful and a warning that if he would ever even think of doing something like that again I would remove his dress-wearing arse from the gene pool.
Puca 04-19-07, 05:12 PM	Everybody loves having a paladin in the party.
Toloran 04-19-07, 05:58 PM	Everybody <b>hates</b> having a paladin in the party. Fixed that for you =P That said, having a paladin in the party really depends on three things: 1) How literal minded the player is. 2) How literal minded the DM is. 3) How literal minded the character is. In any case, back on topic, Here is how I rule using evil spells: A Lawful Good or Neutral Good character wouldn't use a spell with the [Evil] Discriptor because they would probably view it as an evil act regardless of how it was used. Tormenting the eternal soul of a person is an evil act regardless of whether the person deserves it or not. A Chaotic good (or any neutral character pretty much) would probably be fine with it depending on how it is used. Tormenting the eternal soul of an evil villain would probably be ok if the situation warrants it, but not the eternal soul of a good (or even neutral) person.
IceFractal 04-19-07, 06:35 PM	Simple fix if people claim you're evil because you case spells with the [Evil] descriptor: 1) Learn Protection from Evil 2) Keep track of how many times you cast [Evil] spells. 3) Cast Protection from Evil that many times or more between adventures. If they claim that the descriptor does matter, then you're doing as many or more "good" acts than "evil" acts. If they claim the description doesn't matter, then there was no evil act to begin with. Anyway, in no case would a Paladin start attacking a teammate's summoned undead in battle, unless they had Int 3. Becuase the undead will disappear in a few seconds anyway, and because killing them wouldn't actually do anything. They might be angry at the summoner afterward, but Paladins aren't robots - they can realize when to smite the evil and when not to. Also note that a Summon Undead spell isn't even creating new undead - it's summoning existing undead, so you're not even arguably binding anyone's soul (which, BTW, is never claimed by the rules to be part of undead creation).
crowclub 04-19-07, 06:39 PM	Quote: Originally Posted by Puca Everybody <b>hates</b> having a paladin in the party. Fixed that for you =P That said, having a paladin in the party really depends on three things: 1) How literal minded the player is. 2) How literal minded the DM is. 3) How literal minded the character is. In any case, back on topic, Here is how I rule using evil spells: A Lawful Good or Neutral Good character wouldn't use a spell with the [Evil] Discriptor because they would probably view it as an evil act regardless of how it was used. Tormenting the eternal soul of a person is an evil act regardless of whether the person deserves it or not. A Chaotic good (or any neutral character pretty much) would probably be fine with it depending on how it is used. Tormenting the eternal soul of an evil villain would probably be ok if the situation warrants it, but not the eternal soul of a good (or even neutral) person. Paladins suck! IMO! :D
Maekrix_Waere 04-19-07, 06:43 PM	I am personally of the "Ends Justify the Means" camp, and as such do not think the Paladin should attack the mummy...and if the paladin were to attack both the mummy and then the caster who summoned it, I (if I were DM) would strip him of his powers (betraying a comrade because he does something you don't agree with) unless he had given the summoner a VERY clear warning about the act beforehand. Of course, I also don't believe that the Animate Dead spell should even HAVE the [Evil] Descriptor (seeing as how it only creates MINDLESS Undead [which I also don't think should ALWAYS be Evil {Summoner's Alignment IMO}]) so, take what I say as you will.
Karish 04-19-07, 06:43 PM	Casting a [Good], [Chaos], [Evil], or [Law] spell is an act that reflects the descriptor. However, as all people are imperfect, a person who is not evil can cast an [Evil] spell without penalty in my books (Unless prohibited by some order or law in an organization, like with Clerics). However, it does make detect <alignment> spells detect the player as that alignment in addition to his own. That, and the repeated use of a spell opposite to (not just dissimilar) your own alignment may require a Will save (DC 10 + spell level) or else you may be taking a temporary negative level, Str damage, or something like that depending on the spell. :B
Maekrix_Waere 04-19-07, 06:45 PM	Simple fix if people claim you're evil because you case spells with the [Evil] descriptor: 1) Learn Protection from Evil 2) Keep track of how many times you cast [Evil] spells. 3) Cast Protection from Evil that many times or more between adventures. If they claim that the descriptor does matter, then you're doing as many or more "good" acts than "evil" acts. If they claim the description doesn't matter, then there was no evil act to begin with. :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D _ :D
Thiez 04-19-07, 06:48 PM	A paladin with above-average intelligence (say the 8-11 range) I love you.
stackmachine 04-20-07, 08:50 AM	Your newfangled moral relativism has no place here sir! no place? hmmm... thought these forums where there for dialogue, advise and exchange of opinions.... i must add, before giving an explaining example, that you only took a part of my initial statement, thus lessening and warping it's intended meaning. pity. :rolleyes: let me elaborate why i think that it is the intention/ deed that make something good or evil. take poison for example. in itsself, standing on a shelf in a nice and shiny vial, it isnt evil, standing there forever without harming anyone, how could it? it is, for sure though, a substance that can bring good or ill, depending on it's usage: lots of poisons make excellent medicines, if applied correctly to the right patient in the right dosage. they are , as well, a reliable way to dispose of your neighbour if you ignore those variables. :cool: and if your neighbour was that oh-so-evil overlord eating babies for breakfast, wasn't lacing his newest catch with poison and dancing on his corpse afterwards a good thing?!
RevIron 04-20-07, 09:05 AM	A paladin with above-average intelligence (say the 8-11 range) We've got two - we like to call them Martins because the higher level one is based on a RL Journalist called Martin (who he shares a name with, the other is named Algernon).
OravennasBrother 04-20-07, 10:11 AM	A paladin with above-average intelligence (say the 8-11 range). Umm, Int of 10-11 IS Average (for humans in D&D), not above average, and 8-9 is Below average. On Topic - casting Evil spells around a Paladin is a suboptimal idea. If you want to control extra creatures cast Summon Monster Spells.
Brehon 04-20-07, 02:14 PM	Umm, Int of 10-11 IS Average (for humans in D&D), not above average, and 8-9 is Below average. The point was that an INT of 8-11 would be above average for a Paladin, not for a normal human.
Thubby 04-20-07, 04:53 PM	evil spells are always an evil act to cast, as per bovd and boed. the ends can still be good. the paladin would be a fool, and a traitor (non lawful) to attack an ally. though he would give one hell of a talking to, to the mage doing the summoning. if it persisted, he might take action.
WolfHati 04-20-07, 05:28 PM	Unless something can actually be demonstrated to cause harm, it cannot be evil, unless evil and good are in reality just amoral factions duking it out for all eternity. So maybe if summoning undead and channeling negative energy had a deleterious impact on the world as a whole, somehow bringing more evil/death/destruction into it through some sort of magical karma type thing, then it would be evil. If not, then its how you use the spell. So it really depends on the cosmology. If I were a paladin, I would politely ask the undead summoner to not use such spells, as regardless of whether they are cosmically evil, it is better to be safe than sorry, and they just give me a bad feeling. If you're enough of a jerk to **** off a friend or ally at least because you feel like it, heck, my *evil* characters would try to drop you from their group. Though in their case it would be more of an off a cliff sort of dropping.
Maekrix_Waere 04-21-07, 01:04 AM	If you're enough of a jerk to **** off a friend or ally at least because you feel like it, heck, my *evil* characters would try to drop you from their group. Though in their case it would be more of an off a cliff sort of dropping. There's another way?
High Octane 04-21-07, 01:13 AM	The paladin would definitely be against travelling with the character. Just because a character doesnt resonate evil doesnt mean the paladin has no right to desire to end his existance. If the character is promoting evil, using evil, otherwise spreading evil, even if he isnt evil himself hes ripe for a beat down by your friendly neighborhood evil-kicker. Depending on the personality of the paladin, I would say they would either: Smite on sight (lawful stupid) Kick you out Force you to tear up your creating undead spells and instruct you to never cast an evil spell again Have a looooong chat about not spreading evil through creating undead. Most good characters would react in similar fashion since creating undead, though not specifically said to be evil, is insinuated as evil through so many channels that your skull would have to be 7 inches thick to not get it.
crowclub 04-21-07, 07:18 PM	Ok thanks for that. The actual situation is a little (ok, a lot) different to the one I've decribed but I wanted a more obviously polar example. I'm about to enter a game with an Lawful Neutral Archivist and he has Summon Undead V in his Prayerbook. The party has no Paladins (thank the gods!!) but does have a LN Elven Monk/Cleric and a Human X?G Cleric. The Elf is quite snooty and almost certainly isn't going to like [evil] spells. I really like Mummy's and damn it, I'm going to summon them with this character :D I like the view point that ..the ends justify the means.. so I'll probably have to flogg that some to argue my case! Thats all very interesting but slightly off topic...There are NO Paladins!
LadyAlaria 04-21-07, 07:59 PM	In real life, I don't hang out with creepy people. I really don't analyze whether they are *evil*, but if I come across someone who says things like, "Corpses can be useful for so many purposes.", I'm not sticking around. So I don't think it a stretch that in a fantasy world, it isn't just the Paladins that don't care to hand out with mummy-summoning creeps. You can argue whether or not it's "evil", and what exactly you mean by "evil". But it is at the very least *creepy*. I think even many evil characters would agree. Just because you are evil doesn't mean you condone playing with corpses. Every society in the real world has taboos regarding corpses - and that included the Khmer Rouge and the Lords Resistance Army. It seems a great leap of logic to assume that people in a fantasy world wouldn't have similar opinions of necromancy.
Enigmous 04-22-07, 03:49 AM	Unless the paladin is mentally challenged he should relize that mummies that appear and help you and are under your allies command aren't necessary to defeat at the moment. And as was stated, if casting a certain spell was an act of the descriptor's act, then you could be lawful good by spamming protection from chaos/evil all the time as you eat babies, rape women, and steal.
crowclub 04-22-07, 08:06 AM	In real life, I don't hang out with creepy people. I really don't analyze whether they are *evil*, but if I come across someone who says things like, "Corpses can be useful for so many purposes.", I'm not sticking around. So I don't think it a stretch that in a fantasy world, it isn't just the Paladins that don't care to hand out with mummy-summoning creeps. You can argue whether or not it's "evil", and what exactly you mean by "evil". But it is at the very least *creepy*. I think even many evil characters would agree. Just because you are evil doesn't mean you condone playing with corpses. Every society in the real world has taboos regarding corpses - and that included the Khmer Rouge and the Lords Resistance Army. It seems a great leap of logic to assume that people in a fantasy world wouldn't have similar opinions of necromancy. Yeah, you make an excellent point, thanks :)
Thubby 04-22-07, 11:37 AM	Unless the paladin is mentally challenged he should relize that mummies that appear and help you and are under your allies command aren't necessary to defeat at the moment. And as was stated, if casting a certain spell was an act of the descriptor's act, then you could be lawful good by spamming protection from chaos/evil all the time as you eat babies, rape women, and steal. your assuming that alignment is just a function of the piece of paper. if all those spammed pro evils have turned him LG, he isnt going to be eating children. good spells bring the caster in some small way closer to good (we're talking microscopic steps here) evil spells draw the caster closer to the dark side, like in star wars, just slower. it even says in boed "so is casting summon monster (x) to call a demon evil?" "yes, but not terribly so" EDIT: im not saying the paladin should attack the thing indescriminately, but he would object to its use. casting evil spells (that arent plague the earth and burn the children) is something like getting improper change back (in your favor) realizing it, and not correcting the person. yes, you just took money that you shouldnt, but noone on earth would turn you in or call you thief. (though im sure some fundamentalist would object)
LCD2YOU 04-22-07, 02:01 PM	In real life, I don't hang out with creepy people. I really don't analyze whether they are *evil*, but if I come across someone who says things like, "Corpses can be useful for so many purposes.", I'm not sticking around. So I don't think it a stretch that in a fantasy world, it isn't just the Paladins that don't care to hand out with mummy-summoning creeps. You can argue whether or not it's "evil", and what exactly you mean by "evil". But it is at the very least *creepy*. I think even many evil characters would agree. Just because you are evil doesn't mean you condone playing with corpses. Every society in the real world has taboos regarding corpses - and that included the Khmer Rouge and the Lords Resistance Army. It seems a great leap of logic to assume that people in a fantasy world wouldn't have similar opinions of necromancy.Just a small point here. IRL, the prohibition against playing with dead things is due mostly to diseases and such. Those societies that had little or no prohibition or queasieness about corpses got to doe out. Besides, the things smell really bad. The foul odor is nature's way of saying, "Keeping away" and "Dead things aren't toys!" But in a fantasy enovironment, where there are classes that love to have diseases and other classes that love to play with dead things it may be a bit different. But in the case of the OP, ifI were the Paladin player, I'd tell the caster to stop. They'd have a choice of getting new spells to cast or find a new group to go exploring with into the wilderness.
Euclid 04-22-07, 02:16 PM	Summoner's Alignment IMOI'd say neutral. Mindless can't make moral decisions.
crowclub 04-22-07, 06:31 PM	....there are still NO paladins This is not a "What can a Paladin do/not do, or, should do/shouldn't do thread. ...the Paladin has left the building...... The question is whether other NON-PALADIN classes that are LG would have a problem with a fellow party member casting spells with the [evil] descriptor assuming that the character doing so is neutral on the good-evil axis.
Cariyaga 04-22-07, 07:36 PM	...I don't particularly think that anyone cares. Everyone just loves to talk about Paladins.
Thubby 04-22-07, 07:41 PM	....there are still NO paladins This is not a "What can a Paladin do/not do, or, should do/shouldn't do thread. ...the Paladin has left the building...... The question is whether other NON-PALADIN classes that are LG would have a problem with a fellow party member casting spells with the [evil] descriptor assuming that the character doing so is neutral on the good-evil axis. fair enough, someone who is LG would likely have issues with someone using such a spell, as it is illegal in every legitimate, non-evil government, and its considered evil as per raw. attacking it or the allied caster is silly, but i would expect a stern talking to or maybe a smack upside the head (in the non-damaging way)
crowclub 04-23-07, 03:38 PM	...I don't particularly think that anyone cares. Everyone just loves to talk about Paladins. Yeah, I kinda gathered that ! :)
Pidmon 04-23-07, 06:01 PM	Strange, I was under the impression that [Evil] descriptors only affect one type of character - Clerics. Good clerics or neutral clerics with good gods get DEIFIC problems for casting [evil] spells. Evil clerics and neutral clerics with evil gods have a similar restriction for [good]. Same for [law] and [chaos]. How can casting a spell or using a poison be evil, anyway?
stackmachine 04-24-07, 04:45 AM	....there are still NO paladins This is not a "What can a Paladin do/not do, or, should do/shouldn't do thread. ...the Paladin has left the building...... ...warned ya that this would derail at some point, didn't i...
stackmachine 04-24-07, 04:49 AM	...I don't particularly think that anyone cares. Everyone just loves to talk about Paladins. you sir, speak wisely. (feel free to add this to your sig)