Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stephenKingMinion 12-26-03, 04:14 AM	You are an evil character in an otherwise Lawful Neutral group. You come accross a lost and injured kobold child. What do you do? What is an acceptable thing for an evil character to do? I read in another thread that even remotely good (AKA any nuetral or good) character would help them get home, but evil? (This is not roleplaying, this is asking for something BTW Mr. Moderator)
primemover003 12-26-03, 07:48 AM	At best an evil character would ignore it, at worst capture it in a bag and torture it while the party rests. :devil:
Dahedal 12-26-03, 07:51 AM	Ignore it, kick it out of the way, or kill it just for fun. Things like that :)
LordChronos 12-26-03, 12:24 PM	Well, if we as a group came across the kobold. Take it in for the night and figure out its story. Then talk it into hating something (related to the story told) or just talk it into help you out saying something about how you'll look out for it. At worst you will have a speed bump. At best you will have (with some training) a capable cohort (or scapegoat!). A lawful neutral group probably wont kill or ignore it. Most likely they would take it to the nearest town and drop it off (an alternate way of ignoring).
Ubermage 12-26-03, 02:53 PM	Chaotic Evil might kill it out of hand, depending on his mood. Neutral evil is more likely to ignore it, though might torment it for amusement (kind of like messing with a dog on the other side of the fence, or poking at a squirrel who can't get away). Lawful Evil would either simply ignore it, or consider what benefit it could get out of interacting with it. If he can't think of a way to profit from the creature, he's most likely to ignore it and leave it to someone else to dote over. Ultimately, it's depends completely on the personality of the evil person who finds it. Evil doesn't necessarily mean you go out looking for people to hurt or kill, it just means that you're looking out for number 1, and care little for the people you have to kick out of your way to profit number 1.
stephenKingMinion 12-26-03, 05:50 PM	I'm about to ban Evil Characters at my table!
satyrgrrrrl 12-26-03, 07:09 PM	Originally posted by stephenKingMinion I'm about to ban Evil Characters at my table! No reason you can't. I don't allow Evil alignments in my game. As someone once said "Playing an Evil character is only fun for the person playing the Evil character." Also, the PHB says in the alignment section that Evil alignments are for monsters and villians, not PCs. Not that it needs to be taken as Gospel, but it is there to support your disallowing Evil alignments. :angel:
Iddig Ap Nil 12-26-03, 07:52 PM	Hmmm, were it me, I'd take it in and make it my servant/slave, give it the training it needs to survive, and treat it fairly well, not mistreating it or whipping it, but not treating it as an equal either. Then, later on, I will either allow it to go its own way after it has ceased being useful to me, make it a cohort, and try to recruit a kobold hoard, or sacrifice it as necessary...
Henchcritter 12-27-03, 05:36 AM	A good character will protect the defenseless kobolt, a neutral won't kill it, an evil can do anything it wants with it, including letting it go. A chaotic character is unlikely to let others tell him what to do with the kobolt. A lawful will look at what society's /the goup's interests are and what society/ the group wants him to do with the kobolt. End there ends the influence of kobolts and starts the better question: how does your character feel about it? If you belief kobolts are pests, kill it. If you're greedy, sell it into slavery. Ignore it if it doesn’t interest you. You may even return the kid to its parents if you can make money out of it.
RRG 12-27-03, 09:27 AM	I figure how a Lawful Evil guy would treat it truly depends on his class. A fighter or thief would just kill it or knock it out of the way. A sorcerer or wizard may find the use of having a helper to push around, or to test magic items to see if they're cursed. Having a Nodwick-esque NPC in the party is always fun.
Kratilim Valqui 12-27-03, 09:33 AM	I would force the kobalt into telling me where the rest of his tribe are and if they have any tresure. If they do, go and take it. If they don't it would have been a waste of time to interact with the kobalt so punish him for the time you wasted....
Mister Mayhem 12-27-03, 09:34 AM	The evil PC should do whatever is in his best interests (including personal enjoyment) without regard for the feelings of anyone else. But "best interests" will depend entirely upon the individual evil guy.
stephenKingMinion 12-27-03, 11:39 AM	Okay now it's whatever race you are. What now?
Shar Baenre 12-28-03, 02:45 AM	Sorry to chime in with something useless, but its late, I haven't slept in ages, and I'm a bit delirious right now... but I must say I laughed quite hard when I saw this topic name, for in my weary state, I could have swore it said Elvis? Okay, again, sorry... but hopefully others might get a grin or even a laugh out of my temporary dislexia (sp?)
Xychotic 12-28-03, 03:45 AM	Hmm, how evil are we? Naughty-- ignore it, kick it around, give flimsy assistance Vile--all secretly: r*p* it, kill it, eat it, burn it alive, take it in and use it as a ritual sacrifice to increase one's power (see BoVD) Remember, you asked for evil. My version of evil isn't naughty, it's disgusting and wrong on a sheer visceral level.
KAPtain Braindead 12-28-03, 05:41 AM	You evil and are in a quandry? The kobold child offers several chances to improve your status within the party. As mentioned before, torturing it for info might help the party. So will turning it into a slave to do the drudge work (gathering firewood, cleaning the cookpot, tending the horses, etc.). However, this benefits everyone in the party-you are evil, that means looking out for number one. Kill the brat outright. If anybody in the party complains, offer to cook that night's meal to make ammends. In secret, bake the kobold with potatos, garlic and peppers for 1 hour at a low heat. After the meal is enjoyed and the recipie is asked for; tell them the ingrediants and go into great detail about the preparations. The nice thing about kobold children is they are small and easy to carry; plus there might not be enough for you. The upswing will be the party will never ask you to cook again and they won't pester you as much from now on. :devil: Too harsh? Then it's time to rethink the being evil part.
Angelion 12-28-03, 06:42 AM	People, you are forgeting something. Even the party of lawful neutrals, yet lawful goods might ignore a injured kobold child, yet even kill it. Not for fun, but for the good of all. A lawfull good paladin might consider slaying it for it is an evil creature, and to end it's suffering. So may a lawfull neutral group also do, it depends. An evil character might however, kill it (not to end its suffering, but for his own fun or just want it out of the way), torture it or use it to his advantage in his evil selfish little plot.
Henchcritter 12-28-03, 07:44 AM	If you want to get rid of your paladin status, you should kill it. Only 50% of kobolts is LE, so that doesn't mean every kobolt is LE. And even if that were the case, it's only a child. A true paladin would find it, directly or through a church, good parents that can teach the child the ways of good. Nobody said being a paladin was easy. Good doesn't mean shipping up "evil races" to camps to kill them with those "Book of exalted deeds poisons that aren't poisons".
KAPtain Braindead 12-29-03, 03:00 AM	Originally posted by Henchcritter If you want to get rid of your paladin status, you should kill it. Only 50% of kobolts is LE, so that doesn't mean every kobolt is LE. And even if that were the case, it's only a child. A true paladin would find it, directly or through a church, good parents that can teach the child the ways of good. Nobody said being a paladin was easy. Huh? Where did the paladin slant come in? Yes, you are an evil paladin in a party of Lawful Neutrals...? I see the problem as being there is no real guidelines for alignment behavior. A lawful good character might just go out to kill evil or he might try to reform evil beings and make them see the errors of their ways. Originlly posted by Henchcritter Good doesn't mean shipping up "evil races" to camps to kill them with those "Book of exalted deeds poisons that aren't poisons". Of course not. The goal is to have evil beings out in the wild reproducing and attacking innocent people so the heroes can go out and kill them. Nobody ever worrys about this point, but everyone should. If there is no more evil in the world, what will the heroes do to gain XP? Will wars start between the forces of law and chaos? Will we see paladins out killing elves because they tend to be chaotic? Convince your DM to build a few orc preserves. Or at the very least, keep some locked up in zoos and start a breeding program.:rolleyes:
Henchcritter 12-29-03, 05:44 AM	KAPtain Braindead: Huh? Where did the paladin slant come in? Here:Angelion: A lawfull good paladin might consider slaying it for it is an evil creature, and to end it's suffering. KAPtain Braindead: The goal is to have evil beings out in the wild reproducing and attacking innocent people so the heroes can go out and kill them. Nobody ever worrys about this point, but everyone should. If there is no more evil in the world, what will the heroes do to gain XP? Will wars start between the forces of law and chaos? Once again, kobolts have a 50% chance of being LE, so saying kobolts are evil createres is a simplification. Fierce attacking raiding parties and bringing the survivors to court is a good act. But to kill non-combatant kobolts on sight is not good. How would metallic dragons react to humans, a rave that can have any alignment, so there are many evil humans compared to metallic dragons. Will these metallic dragons let humans breed more evil humans that attack innocent metallic dragons?
Tzor 12-29-03, 11:33 AM	Originally posted by stephenKingMinion You are an evil character in an otherwise Lawful Neutral group. You come accross a lost and injured kobold child. The best way to look at evil is the notion of being selfish above all other things. "What's in it for me?" There's a kobold child, nothing more and nothing less. I assume the drugery of parenthood probably doesn't appeal to me, otherwise I probably wouldn't be wasting my time in a spot where a lost and injured kobold child could be found. Likewise, I highly doubt there is a "lost baby - big reward" in the kobold village. Ingoring things is probably the best option on the list, because it is the easiest thing to do, and takes the less work. Let the neuturals handle it. Hopefully they won't slow me down, and perhaps some benefit may come from their bizzare efforts afterall. But diaper changing, and feeding is definitely out as far as the character is concerned.
green_yawgmoth 12-29-03, 04:47 PM	Originally posted by satyrgrrrrl "Playing an Evil character is only fun for the person playing the Evil character." Yeah, unless of course you have... what's it called? Oh right. Mature players. CE != CS. I think everyone who wants to play an evil PC should get the opportunity to at least prove their abilities to RP evil well. If they just run around saying "I kill it!" then by all means tell them no. But unless there's a paladin in the party, there shouldn't be a lot of conflict if said evil PC has any tact at all. Evil alignments are for monsters and villians, not PCs. See above. If evil alignments aren't for players, then why is it in player's handbook? I think the real problem is that many many people see evil and think "backstab and cause trouble at every possible chance", which is very wrong. The evil PC (again, if he actually RPs worth anything) won't be kicking kittens into the road just because, but he might let you fall into the acid pit if you have a +5 keen wounding scimitar back at camp that he wants.
satyrgrrrrl 12-29-03, 09:56 PM	Originally posted by green_yawgmoth Yeah, unless of course you have... what's it called? Oh right. Mature players. CE != CS. I think everyone who wants to play an evil PC should get the opportunity to at least prove their abilities to RP evil well. If they just run around saying "I kill it!" then by all means tell them no. But unless there's a paladin in the party, there shouldn't be a lot of conflict if said evil PC has any tact at all. See above. If evil alignments aren't for players, then why is it in player's handbook? I think the real problem is that many many people see evil and think "backstab and cause trouble at every possible chance", which is very wrong. The evil PC (again, if he actually RPs worth anything) won't be kicking kittens into the road just because, but he might let you fall into the acid pit if you have a +5 keen wounding scimitar back at camp that he wants. My players don't think CE=CS. They roleplay all the alignments very well. But D&D is, basically, a game based on a group of heroes. Evil is selfish, the very antithesis of what makes a group strong. Eventually, Evil will destroy a group. You even admit it yourself: but he might let you fall into the acid pit if you have a +5 keen wounding scimitar back at camp that he wants. Evil-aligned characters may last for a while in a group, but they will eventually do something/not do something that will, at best, alienate themselves from the group, or, at worst, kill the party. Paladins aren't the only ones who wouldn't associate with Evil PCs. Any Good-aligned PC worth his roleplaying shouldn't put up with Evil PCs. I've had more non-Paladin, LG PCs haul some guy who wrote "NG" down but was really playing "NE" off to jail, and I've had parties leave other members behind, due to their selfish ways. And those kinds of situations aren't fun for any player, regardless of supposed "maturity". If everyone comes to the table with an Evil-aligned character, or I say "we're running an Evil game", then that's a different story. But, then again, when I want to allow my players the "freedom" to roleplay evil characters, we go play Vampire: the Masquerade (as we're doing now). Also, I believe the Evil alignment was put into the PHB so that the players know about it, because many abilities run off of the Evilness of someone (such as Detect Evil). The little sidenote in the Evil alignment section that I mentioned earlier wouldn't have been included if it were supposed to be a regularly-viable alignment choice. But this is all beside the point. I was simply supporting someone's choice not to allow Evil alignments in his game. If you like playing Evil, or just feel like it, then by all means, play in a group that allows it. :angel:
Henchcritter 12-30-03, 04:12 AM	Evil is selfish, the very antithesis of what makes a group strong. Eventually, Evil will destroy a group. You even admit it yourself: Yes, but this has more to do with tthe chaotic part. For example there is nothing in his alignment to prevent a CG character from stealing such a weapon and running away. After all, he's not hurting killing or oppressing someone. The fellow partymember will easily survive the theft. Win some, lose some. A LE character is trustworthy and reliable. Such a character is unlikely to steal from the party. the only difference is the the LE will use more drastic measures to achieve his and the party's goals. Such a character might even be a selfless ideologist with the wrong ideals. Ask yourself: what is less disturbing in my party. A LG rogue that steals from is partymembers or a LE wizard that is smart enough to hide his atrocities from the party. Paladins aren't the only ones who wouldn't associate with Evil PCs. Any Good-aligned PC worth his roleplaying shouldn't put up with Evil PCs. I've had more non-Paladin, LG PCs haul some guy who wrote "NG" down but was really playing "NE" off to jail, and I've had parties leave other members behind, due to their selfish ways. And those kinds of situations aren't fun for any player, regardless of supposed "maturity".Playing evil characters is very hard. Your top priority should be: "don't litter your nest". The best evil characters are the ones that keep low and don't give the part any reason to suspect them. Also, I believe the Evil alignment was put into the PHB so that the players know about it, because many abilities run off of the Evilness of someone (such as Detect Evil). The little sidenote in the Evil alignment section that I mentioned earlier wouldn't have been included if it were supposed to be a regularly-viable alignment choice.Detect evil is easy to get around, 8000 GP for the beloved ring of mindshielding. [edite: added the last few paragraphs]
satyrgrrrrl 12-30-03, 12:44 PM	Originally posted by Henchcritter Yes, but this has more to do with tthe chaotic part. For example there is nothing in his alignment to prevent a CG character from stealing such a weapon and running away. After all, he's not hurting killing or oppressing someone. The fellow partymember will easily survive the theft. Win some, lose some. A LE character is trustworthy and reliable. Such a character is unlikely to steal from the party. the only difference is the the LE will use more drastic measures to achieve his and the party's goals. Such a character might even be a selfless ideologist with the wrong ideals. Ask yourself: what is less disturbing in my party. A LG rogue that steals from is partymembers or a LE wizard that is smart enough to hide his atrocities from the party. Playing evil characters is very hard. Your top priority should be: "don't litter your nest". The best evil characters are the ones that keep low and don't give the part any reason to suspect them. Detect evil is easy to get around, 8000 GP for the beloved ring of mindshielding. [edite: added the last few paragraphs] I don't agree with you at all, and I don't think you have a very good grasp of the alignments, but this really has gone off-topic from the original poster's request and I feel no need to justify not allowing Evil alignments in my game. It runs fine, and none of my players seem to have the problems others on the boards have. As I said to green_yawgmoth, if you like Evil alignments, then by all means find a group to play it in. And, as I said to stephenKingMinion (which started this whole thing), there's no reason you can't ban Evil alignments at your gaming table. :angel:
Nifft 12-30-03, 01:40 PM	The one Evil PC I ever played would have taken him in as a cohort-in-training. That PC was a Wolf-oriented Druid, and saw himself as the rightful leader of a pack. He would go out of his way to increase his Leadership abilities. -- N
Henchcritter 01-01-04, 01:21 PM	satyrgrrrrl I don't agree with you at all, and I don't think you have a very good grasp of the alignments, but this really has gone off-topic from the original poster's request and I feel no need to justify not allowing Evil alignments in my game. OGC: Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit. “Good” implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others. “Evil” implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master. Nothing says good characters can't steal if they leave the others enough to survive. “Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should. “Chaos” implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Chaos can give itself the right to steal. It's counterpart law must remain trustworthiness and can't. To the original poster, there is a valuable lesson here to be learned. As you can see, two experienced gamers seem to interpret the alignment rules quite differently. Evil and good may seem pretty universal, but they aren't. Are poison or stealing evil or not. And you baby can prove a similar problem. The chaos-lawful alignment is very vague. Try to be consistent: for example why is it evil to use drow sleeppoison but ok to use fireball so they burn to death. Before starting a game, tell your players what you think they mean and try to reach a basic understanding with your players.
satyrgrrrrl 01-01-04, 03:58 PM	Originally posted by Henchcritter Nothing says good characters can't steal if they leave the others enough to survive. Chaos can give itself the right to steal. It's counterpart law must remain trustworthiness and can't. Yes, but the original comment to which I was responding spoke about the Chaotic Evil character leaving another PC to die because he wanted his sword. I wasn't speaking about stealing exactly, but killing/allowing the PC to die for his sword. Altruism (used in the definition of Good) is unselfish concern for the welfare of others: selflessness. So, even a Chaotic Good character wouldn't (by alignment) steal a sword if it would cause harm, or do harm to gain said sword. And he certainly wouldn't allow another person to die because he wanted the sword. To the original poster, there is a valuable lesson here to be learned. As you can see, two experienced gamers seem to interpret the alignment rules quite differently. Evil and good may seem pretty universal, but they aren't. Are poison or stealing evil or not. And you baby can prove a similar problem. The chaos-lawful alignment is very vague. Try to be consistent: for example why is it evil to use drow sleeppoison but ok to use fireball so they burn to death. Before starting a game, tell your players what you think they mean and try to reach a basic understanding with your players. And don't be afraid to limit your game one way or the other. :D :angel:
FriendoftheDork 01-01-04, 10:17 PM	Of all these replies, I think the train-as-servant post was the most interesting. But of course, the answer depends more on the PCs personality than alignment. Even a lawful good character might kill it.