Exalted Alignment Problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

Exalted Alignment Problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The Chondathan
04-03-06, 10:27 PM I have played D&D for many years, and during the course of the those years there have been many game nights that have ended in a heated discussion concerning alignment. However, the last game I played was at least the most confusing if not the most ludicrous example of confused alignment.

First enter the scene one LG archivist named Victor who has taken some vows from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Two of the vows Victor took were: The Vow of Poverty, and The Vow of Nonviolence. There may have been other vows but this was not my character and I did not know them all. Victor's strategy to adventuring was almost all talking backed by some subdual spells. Now Victor had a very high diplomacy check and during the first battle he somehow convinced a CE bugbear into permanently worshiping St. Cuthbert and becoming LG (Is this even possible without a spell?...I mean really... talking an NPC into a different alignment). Next enter a charismatic CN halfling spell-thief named Chance who did everything in his power to at least kill a bugbear during the first battle however I rolled miserably so the bugbear was instead given to the authorities.

Now that I have given a little background, a couple of battles later on our mission to the EVIL temple to acquire an artifact we were attacked by black flame zealot who of course attacked without provocation (other than the fact that we were trespassing in his ruined evil temple). After a few rounds of combat the black flame zealot dropped unconscious to the floor. Chance, without hesitation, elected to use this opportunity to coup de grace. Now here comes the unbelievable part. Victor then told his bugbear (who was now totally under his mental control without having Victor ever even casting a spell) to pummel Chance to unconscious because he had slain a helpless person. Victor then assisted his pet bugbear by casting a hold person spell on Chance. The party in shock had no idea what to do so the halfling got beat up a guy who took a vow of nonviolence and his pet bugbear in the name of good.

Help me understand this!?!?!?!?!?
runestar
04-03-06, 11:13 PM First, how is the archivist with the VOP even allowed to keep a spellbook? ;)

The diplomacy part is fine. IMO, that's the way an exalted game should be played. Not just tacking on of overpowered feats and wantonly killing anything and then trying to justify that it was done in the name of good. Yes, it is possible, assuming he made the checks. Look up ELH for more examples of what a successful check can achieve. :)

The second part, I feel he definitely went OOC there. The moment chance tried to CDG the unconcious zealot, victor should have done everything in his power to prevent this from happening, perhaps even resorting to grappling the rogue with his bugbear. But now that the zealot was dead, there was really no need to resort to violence since it would do nothing to remedy the situation.

The rogue was acting well within his alignment, so no fault there. This is a good example of the friction that can occur when you have players of such differing alignments together.
kelvinaw273
04-03-06, 11:21 PM I agree, ordering the bugbear to attack the rogue was OOC and pointless at that time. I would question whether the character's vow of non-violence had been broken by doing so.
Andrew_980
04-04-06, 12:32 AM Sounds a bit to hasty with the violence for that vow
The Chondathan
04-04-06, 08:01 PM Well, I am not too surprised that he could talk the bugbear into being good and worshiping his god because I really can't recall anything saying a character couldn't have accomplished this. My main problem was with the whole beating up Chance ordeal. I know he would have tried to prevent the CDG but he didn't have time and neither did the bugbear. I agree that once the CDG occurred any violence was pointless and would have resulted in Victor breaking his vow of nonviolence; however, what would be an appropriate response for a character of that alignment and disposition? Is a CDG of an evil NPC who attacked without provocation an evil act?

P.S. Hadn't considered his spell book breaking the vow of poverty....nice.
shadowfox628
04-04-06, 08:16 PM Sovergn Vow, Vow of Poverty, Bow of Peace, Vow of Nonviolence... There's a thied feat you can take to turn all attacks into non-lethal damage without penalty (even Sneak Attack damage), which also makes sense (either Vow of Peace or Vow of Nonviolence says you can't deal lethal damage...). However, he shouldn't have sent his Bugbear to attack that one character.

Heh... Spellbook. Unless his DM says it's OK, he'll lose his Vow of Poverty abilities... Which are very nice when combined with a Monk.
The Chondathan
04-04-06, 09:05 PM Do any of the Vows dictate when to attack and when not to?
Witch
04-05-06, 05:33 AM Vow of Non-Violence would not have been broken by the character, though Vow of Poverty might have.
The only thing Vow of Non-Violence forbids is targetting people with death effects, disintegrate, pain effects, similar things, and lethal damage. He can deal nonlethal damage as he pleases.

However, since you killed a helpless enemy, you would have received a -1 morale penalty on your attack rolls for 1 hour per VoN-V char's character level (if he was within 120 feet).
Yes, hís feat affects yóu.

Personally, I feel he was correct in smacking you down, seeing as you might cause even more harm during the battle.
The fact that the bugbear became a sort of cohort seems a bit suspicious though.
LCD2YOU
04-05-06, 05:56 AM Like Condathan stated, your character shouldn't have a spellbook. The VoP, which is from a very broken book, says they own nothing. You can't even have your pet bugbear "own" the spellbook and "let you use it".

Do yourself a favor, drop the VoNV. I'll put it to you this way:

The restrictions on your character are severe. A Paladin's oath, Coc, actions are nothing to what you have to put up with in playing.
Witch
04-05-06, 06:01 AM The restrictions on Vow of Non-Violence are doable - at least you can stay near people who kill others. Vow of Peace is a lot worse.
Thelandrach
04-05-06, 07:04 AM Maybe I'm being a little simplistic here, but to me, if a PC can convert a monstrous creature from CE to LG while it is in combat, permanently, where is there to go from there? The character is as good at Diplomacy as it'll be possible to get; time to retire the character.
Derren S.
04-05-06, 07:22 AM Thats actually impossible. You can't change alignment with diplomacy (except with checks in the high epic and even then, the creature is only a fanatic follower but doesn't change its alignment).
Somehow I smell the Mindbender PRC. If not then I have the impression of slight DM favoritism.
Witch
04-05-06, 09:08 AM While you shouldn't be able to change alignment during combat, I do think several diplomacy checks in a row during a long amount of time could change alignment.
Lincoln Hills
04-05-06, 03:03 PM Correct, Witch. There are guidelines for "Redemption" in the Book of Exalted Deeds. Personally I don't like them... but personally I don't use Vile or Exalted, so who cares what I think? ;)
runestar
04-05-06, 10:35 PM Maybe I'm being a little simplistic here, but to me, if a PC can convert a monstrous creature from CE to LG while it is in combat, permanently, where is there to go from there? The character is as good at Diplomacy as it'll be possible to get; time to retire the character.

Have the demon lords sell cookies for charity... :P
Andrew_980
04-06-06, 12:32 AM I hate the wording of vow of peace/non-violence. It is a ban on killing not brutally beating all in your path. Csrew the exact wording and punish him for breaking the spirit by having his minion beat a man for going against his veiws.
SwiftFox
04-06-06, 05:26 AM I can think of a couple of ways to change a creature's alignment without spells, but both involve prestige classes.
The first that comes to mind is the Evangelist (complete divine, page 39) who's 5th level class ability : Great Orator (convert the unfaithful) lets him as a full round action force a single enemy within 30ft who can hear and understand him to pass a (DC 10 + cha mod + evangelist level) will save or have his alignment temporarily change to match the evangelist's, as a charm monster spell. When this effect wears off (in 5 days time) the creature can decide to keep its new alignment or go back to its old one... so once converted an evangelist has 5 days to work on the creature with diplomacy to convince it to stay good.
The other class is the Emissary of Barachiel (book of exalted deeds, page 59), who's 3rd level class ability : Conversion lets him force every evil or neutral creature within 30ft to pass a (DC = result of his diplomacy check) will save or have their alignments shift one step closer to good. The emissary takes 5D4 subdual damage in the process, can can only do this a number of times per day equal to his class level. The affected creature gets to make another will save every day for 7 days... if it suceeds at any of these saves the effect ends, but if it fails them all the alignment change is permanent, though it can be affected by this conversion ability again.

It is also possible to use diplomacy to very gradually shift a creatures alignment, but for the purposes of combat you can attempt to change a creature's attitude. This is normally very difficult, requiring a very high diplomacy check, especially if you attempt a check as a full round action instead of a full minute, taking a -10 penalty to rolls.
However, by my reckoning its possible for a 10th level half-elf bard 6/evangelist 4 to have a +38 bonus to diplomacy, which is a check he can make as a full round action at -5, while taking 10 for a total of 43... enough to change the attitude of any hostile creatures to friendly, with no chance of failure as long as they can hear and understand him. He is then at his leisure to ply them with additional diplomacy checks, and perhaps eventually change their alignment.

But yeah, your friend is in trouble from vow of poverty because his class requires a spellbook but the feat doesnt let him have one unless the DM is willing to make an exception... and while his actions subduing the rogue were chaotic, subdual damage is perfectly allowed under vow of non-violence and even vow of peace.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Chondathan 04-03-06, 10:27 PM	I have played D&D for many years, and during the course of the those years there have been many game nights that have ended in a heated discussion concerning alignment. However, the last game I played was at least the most confusing if not the most ludicrous example of confused alignment. First enter the scene one LG archivist named Victor who has taken some vows from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Two of the vows Victor took were: The Vow of Poverty, and The Vow of Nonviolence. There may have been other vows but this was not my character and I did not know them all. Victor's strategy to adventuring was almost all talking backed by some subdual spells. Now Victor had a very high diplomacy check and during the first battle he somehow convinced a CE bugbear into permanently worshiping St. Cuthbert and becoming LG (Is this even possible without a spell?...I mean really... talking an NPC into a different alignment). Next enter a charismatic CN halfling spell-thief named Chance who did everything in his power to at least kill a bugbear during the first battle however I rolled miserably so the bugbear was instead given to the authorities. Now that I have given a little background, a couple of battles later on our mission to the EVIL temple to acquire an artifact we were attacked by black flame zealot who of course attacked without provocation (other than the fact that we were trespassing in his ruined evil temple). After a few rounds of combat the black flame zealot dropped unconscious to the floor. Chance, without hesitation, elected to use this opportunity to coup de grace. Now here comes the unbelievable part. Victor then told his bugbear (who was now totally under his mental control without having Victor ever even casting a spell) to pummel Chance to unconscious because he had slain a helpless person. Victor then assisted his pet bugbear by casting a hold person spell on Chance. The party in shock had no idea what to do so the halfling got beat up a guy who took a vow of nonviolence and his pet bugbear in the name of good. Help me understand this!?!?!?!?!?
runestar 04-03-06, 11:13 PM	First, how is the archivist with the VOP even allowed to keep a spellbook? ;) The diplomacy part is fine. IMO, that's the way an exalted game should be played. Not just tacking on of overpowered feats and wantonly killing anything and then trying to justify that it was done in the name of good. Yes, it is possible, assuming he made the checks. Look up ELH for more examples of what a successful check can achieve. :) The second part, I feel he definitely went OOC there. The moment chance tried to CDG the unconcious zealot, victor should have done everything in his power to prevent this from happening, perhaps even resorting to grappling the rogue with his bugbear. But now that the zealot was dead, there was really no need to resort to violence since it would do nothing to remedy the situation. The rogue was acting well within his alignment, so no fault there. This is a good example of the friction that can occur when you have players of such differing alignments together.
kelvinaw273 04-03-06, 11:21 PM	I agree, ordering the bugbear to attack the rogue was OOC and pointless at that time. I would question whether the character's vow of non-violence had been broken by doing so.
Andrew_980 04-04-06, 12:32 AM	Sounds a bit to hasty with the violence for that vow
The Chondathan 04-04-06, 08:01 PM	Well, I am not too surprised that he could talk the bugbear into being good and worshiping his god because I really can't recall anything saying a character couldn't have accomplished this. My main problem was with the whole beating up Chance ordeal. I know he would have tried to prevent the CDG but he didn't have time and neither did the bugbear. I agree that once the CDG occurred any violence was pointless and would have resulted in Victor breaking his vow of nonviolence; however, what would be an appropriate response for a character of that alignment and disposition? Is a CDG of an evil NPC who attacked without provocation an evil act? P.S. Hadn't considered his spell book breaking the vow of poverty....nice.
shadowfox628 04-04-06, 08:16 PM	Sovergn Vow, Vow of Poverty, Bow of Peace, Vow of Nonviolence... There's a thied feat you can take to turn all attacks into non-lethal damage without penalty (even Sneak Attack damage), which also makes sense (either Vow of Peace or Vow of Nonviolence says you can't deal lethal damage...). However, he shouldn't have sent his Bugbear to attack that one character. Heh... Spellbook. Unless his DM says it's OK, he'll lose his Vow of Poverty abilities... Which are very nice when combined with a Monk.
The Chondathan 04-04-06, 09:05 PM	Do any of the Vows dictate when to attack and when not to?
Witch 04-05-06, 05:33 AM	Vow of Non-Violence would not have been broken by the character, though Vow of Poverty might have. The only thing Vow of Non-Violence forbids is targetting people with death effects, disintegrate, pain effects, similar things, and lethal damage. He can deal nonlethal damage as he pleases. However, since you killed a helpless enemy, you would have received a -1 morale penalty on your attack rolls for 1 hour per VoN-V char's character level (if he was within 120 feet). Yes, hís feat affects yóu. Personally, I feel he was correct in smacking you down, seeing as you might cause even more harm during the battle. The fact that the bugbear became a sort of cohort seems a bit suspicious though.
LCD2YOU 04-05-06, 05:56 AM	Like Condathan stated, your character shouldn't have a spellbook. The VoP, which is from a very broken book, says they own nothing. You can't even have your pet bugbear "own" the spellbook and "let you use it". Do yourself a favor, drop the VoNV. I'll put it to you this way: The restrictions on your character are severe. A Paladin's oath, Coc, actions are nothing to what you have to put up with in playing.
Witch 04-05-06, 06:01 AM	The restrictions on Vow of Non-Violence are doable - at least you can stay near people who kill others. Vow of Peace is a lot worse.
Thelandrach 04-05-06, 07:04 AM	Maybe I'm being a little simplistic here, but to me, if a PC can convert a monstrous creature from CE to LG while it is in combat, permanently, where is there to go from there? The character is as good at Diplomacy as it'll be possible to get; time to retire the character.
Derren S. 04-05-06, 07:22 AM	Thats actually impossible. You can't change alignment with diplomacy (except with checks in the high epic and even then, the creature is only a fanatic follower but doesn't change its alignment). Somehow I smell the Mindbender PRC. If not then I have the impression of slight DM favoritism.
Witch 04-05-06, 09:08 AM	While you shouldn't be able to change alignment during combat, I do think several diplomacy checks in a row during a long amount of time could change alignment.
Lincoln Hills 04-05-06, 03:03 PM	Correct, Witch. There are guidelines for "Redemption" in the Book of Exalted Deeds. Personally I don't like them... but personally I don't use Vile or Exalted, so who cares what I think? ;)
runestar 04-05-06, 10:35 PM	Maybe I'm being a little simplistic here, but to me, if a PC can convert a monstrous creature from CE to LG while it is in combat, permanently, where is there to go from there? The character is as good at Diplomacy as it'll be possible to get; time to retire the character. Have the demon lords sell cookies for charity... :P
Andrew_980 04-06-06, 12:32 AM	I hate the wording of vow of peace/non-violence. It is a ban on killing not brutally beating all in your path. Csrew the exact wording and punish him for breaking the spirit by having his minion beat a man for going against his veiws.
SwiftFox 04-06-06, 05:26 AM	I can think of a couple of ways to change a creature's alignment without spells, but both involve prestige classes. The first that comes to mind is the Evangelist (complete divine, page 39) who's 5th level class ability : Great Orator (convert the unfaithful) lets him as a full round action force a single enemy within 30ft who can hear and understand him to pass a (DC 10 + cha mod + evangelist level) will save or have his alignment temporarily change to match the evangelist's, as a charm monster spell. When this effect wears off (in 5 days time) the creature can decide to keep its new alignment or go back to its old one... so once converted an evangelist has 5 days to work on the creature with diplomacy to convince it to stay good. The other class is the Emissary of Barachiel (book of exalted deeds, page 59), who's 3rd level class ability : Conversion lets him force every evil or neutral creature within 30ft to pass a (DC = result of his diplomacy check) will save or have their alignments shift one step closer to good. The emissary takes 5D4 subdual damage in the process, can can only do this a number of times per day equal to his class level. The affected creature gets to make another will save every day for 7 days... if it suceeds at any of these saves the effect ends, but if it fails them all the alignment change is permanent, though it can be affected by this conversion ability again. It is also possible to use diplomacy to very gradually shift a creatures alignment, but for the purposes of combat you can attempt to change a creature's attitude. This is normally very difficult, requiring a very high diplomacy check, especially if you attempt a check as a full round action instead of a full minute, taking a -10 penalty to rolls. However, by my reckoning its possible for a 10th level half-elf bard 6/evangelist 4 to have a +38 bonus to diplomacy, which is a check he can make as a full round action at -5, while taking 10 for a total of 43... enough to change the attitude of any hostile creatures to friendly, with no chance of failure as long as they can hear and understand him. He is then at his leisure to ply them with additional diplomacy checks, and perhaps eventually change their alignment. But yeah, your friend is in trouble from vow of poverty because his class requires a spellbook but the feat doesnt let him have one unless the DM is willing to make an exception... and while his actions subduing the rogue were chaotic, subdual damage is perfectly allowed under vow of non-violence and even vow of peace.