Exalted deeds [Archive] - Wizards Community

Exalted deeds [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
EladrinArchon
05-06-04, 08:21 PM One simple question why is a book about the good guys rated mature?
Veton
05-06-04, 08:27 PM Because it deals with mature issues.
jafyfe
05-06-04, 09:08 PM Because only good guys can be mature
Xenocide
05-07-04, 04:22 AM Generally because you don't want immature players using any of the stuff in that book:

Player: I attack the Gold Dragon.
DM: Ummm, you're a Vassal of Bahamut, dedicated to the aid of good dragons and the slaying of evil ones.
Player: But he has a sword that does extra damage to red dragons and I need it.
DM: If he wanted to give it to you, he would have. Part of being LG is respecting someone else's property.
Player: I could use it more.
DM: Will you please reconsider?
Player: I attack him.
DM: Okay, you're now CN, your platinum armor corrodes to dust. As it does, your sword starts doing damage as you are no longer good.
Player: This sucks.
pokemaniacbill
05-07-04, 04:30 AM That's stupid people, not immature people.

It's mature so some dip named Bob can tell me I'm not allowed to buy it because I'm not eighteen, so I beat him with it, leave my money and leave.

Really? Cause people are dumber'n hell.
Revelation
05-07-04, 05:38 AM It deals with issues of morals, torture, redemption, even touches on sexuality. I'd agree that it isn't necessary to give it a mature rating. I like the discourses in it and many an Awful Good paladin could be improved if their player read this book.

I think wizards were trying to cover themselves against attacks that they were irresponsible. I'd much rather they put in a disclaimer like Palladium have done since the anti role playing nuts were strong in the late 80's.
Thorak
05-07-04, 08:13 AM IIRC, there's also some minor topless nudity in one picture in the book.
jafyfe
05-07-04, 12:03 PM It is more for protection of Law Suits from parents.

The game can be played by children(by children i mean a 5 year old how knows how to read and add can play), if a child purchase a book of material that a parent deems inapporiate, the company can be held liable. With that in mind, WotC did what the could to defend themselves.

Bob the bookstore guy is equal to the Simpson's comic book guy. So of course he will use whatever little authority he has to smash your dreams.

Lastly, topless nudity can be found in the MM.
Edymnion
05-07-04, 02:56 PM Originally posted by Thorak
IIRC, there's also some minor topless nudity in one picture in the book. Yeah, like there's none of that in the 3.5 Monster Manual *cough*dryad*cough*nymph*cough*.

Real reason is that its the counterpart book for the Book of Vile Darkness, the Yin for it's Yang. Thats the real reason.

Also, younger players are going to rant and rail over staying Exalted.

PC: I smack the kid out of my way.
DM: You lose all of your Exalted powers.
PC: No way!
DM: Yes way, you struck an innocent child. You might as well roll up a new character, this ones useless now.
Thorak
05-07-04, 05:41 PM Another reason is that the power provided by exalted abilities is supposed to be offset by the difficulty in staying Exalted. To expand on Edymnion's example, not only does it require the Exalted player to be mature enough not to smack innocent children out of the way, it requires a DM mature enough to understand why that's going to break his exalted status. And that the two of them can avoid descending into a "Does not!" "Does too!" argument over it.
pog
05-08-04, 06:05 AM WotC just being careful - law and stuff. Also, has as already been mentioned, relating it to BoVD.

Some of the content of BoED is more suited to mature audiences - not so much the pictures ( even the lesbian succubi on p.7 ) , but more the ethical discussions. I think young children would have difficulty addressing issues such as altruism, sacrifice, atonement, celibacy etc.

Also, certain aspects sound very similar to real-life religions: stigmata, sainthood etc. and this could cause offense ( see p.4 ).

The book explains its mature rating on p.4
Eldren
05-08-04, 03:26 PM Admittedly, there's a lot less that's overtly designed for mature individuals in the Book of Exalted Deeds than in its predecessor, the Book of Vile Darkness (believe me, I wouldn't want anyone under about the age of 15 looking at that book, and I'd be wary about a 15 year-old...). Thing about it is, a lot of the "exalted" material in the book draws from real-world religions and religious history, things like stigmata (drawn from Catholic doctrine), issues of morality when it comes to honoring certain types of love that some individuals would consider "deviant" (like the photo of a Paladin holding a glowing sword at two succubi, and the caption reading, "A Paladin must choose between destroying evil and honoring love"), etc. As well, although it's honestly a piddly little issue, the queen of the eladrin, Morwel, is bisexual, as she has both a male and a female consort. These are just the things I can think of off the top of my head. There are also holy relics that were used originally as torture devices, but the final gist of it is that the book deals with issues of morality and ethics, as the introduction says, and those things, in order to have true impact on the campaign, need to be dealt with maturely, and not simply reduced to the level of "common Good" that the Core Rules alignments represent.

You're a lot safer reading the Book of Exalted Deeds than the Book of Vile Darkness. I have a feeling that the best way to put it is that the Book of Vile Darkness is for mature players because of graphic content, while the Book of Exalted Deeds is for mature players because of graphic concepts. You aren't going to see much in the way of nudity in this book (and the nudity that was in the BoVD was just sick...), and there isn't even much in the way of nasty battle imagery (the worst I can think of is the poor drawing of a beholder being affected by an affliction, which is a Good-aligned "poison"). It's just more of a conceptual thing where you ought to treat the issues of morality and ethics with the maturity and gravity they deserve to be treated with.
Edymnion
05-08-04, 03:45 PM Originally posted by Eldren
You're a lot safer reading the Book of Exalted Deeds than the Book of Vile Darkness. Please, I have seen Viler things on UPN than I've seen in the Book of Vile Darkness.

BoVD is nothing more than gross, thats all. Little torture and drugs thrown in for good measure, but other than that, its all about plain gross stuff. Bloody spells, mean stuff, but NOTHING thats really vile.

BoVD is upper PG-13, lower R, most definatly nowhere near NC-17 for anything.
Eldren
05-09-04, 06:08 AM I agree that the Book of Vile Darkness isn't NC-17, and probably isn't even in the realm of an R rating, were it to somehow fall under the purview of the MPAA.

Thing about it is, you have to realize that, in general, Dungeons & Dragons tries to make itself a viable hobby for younger kids; most kids tend to get involved with the game between the ages of 10-12. At that age, parents are (or at least should be) really wary of what they let into their kids' heads, and handing 'em a book that shows things like a demonic-looking woman with one breast ripped off, leaving nothing but a stitched scar in its place, or spells with names like Mindrape, or spells which tear someone's hand off and have it attack them (Grave Revenge), or rules for drug addiction, or rules for dealing with psychoses like necrophilia, sadism, masochism, etc., are all things that ought to be handled very gingerly. As such, it was sensible for WotC to make the Book of Vile Darkness a Mature Line product.

I agree with you, a lot of the book is just plain gross. Stephen King once said in "Danse Macabre" "If you can't terrify them, horrify them, if you can't horrify them, scare them, and if you can't scare them, go for the gross out." The BoVD goes for the gross out almost unilaterally. Most of the art and a lot of the spell effects, many of which are just for spells which aren't even Vile spells (i.e., spells that aren't specific to either divine or arcane magic, but which carry the additional costs for casting), are gruesome. It's kinda like slogging through a diseased charnel house a lot of the time. You're gonna come out the other side feeling pretty icky, and really wishing for a shower, assuming you didn't contract some horrid and undiscovered disease as you wandered through the filth.

The Book of Exalted Deeds approaches things a lot differently, and I honestly found it pretty curious that the book was intentionally laid out to mirror the layout of the Book of Vile Darkness. While I understand that the forces of Good are going to come up with direct ways to countermand the worst offenses of Evil, making the Book of Exalted Deeds a near mirror-image of the Book of Vile Darkness probably does something of a disservice to the people who were expecting more. Coming up with spells whose sole purpose is to counteract Vile spells is kinda pointless. Even Dispel Magic has more uses than just countering Charm Person, and Darkness certainly has more purposes than just negating Daylight.

I would agree with you that the Book of Vile Darkness probably deserves a strong PG-13 rating. Thing about it is, with a couple of notable exceptions in the Monster Manual (the dryad and the nymph, primarily), the majority of the material from the Core Rulebooks is on the low end of PG. There are Disney movies that approach more "controversial" material than most Dungeons & Dragons rulebooks. But since the Book of Vile Darkness is on the high end of PG-13, and the other D&D rulebooks, by comparison, are a lot more tame, it ought to be approached with some caution by someone who isn't aware of what they're about to get themselves into. I have yet to find a gaming shop in my area that's willing to sell the book to anyone under the age of around 15. Even my comic book shop, which has behind its counters action figures for Jenna Jameson, has anniversary-edition figures for Playboy models, and has adult-oriented comic books in full view of store patrons (although they're still behind the actual counter, and aren't sold to anyone under 18), refuses to sell the Book of Vile Darkness to anyone under the age of 17.

A lot of stores initially took that approach with the Book of Exalted Deeds, until they had the chance to see that it would be a lot safer in the hands of someone around the age of 13 or 14 (maybe a 13 year-old with parental permission or accompaniment). It isn't as overtly disgusting and "in your face" as the Book of Vile Darkness was, and I agree that it's borderline as to whether or not it ultimately deserved to be part of the Mature Products line.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EladrinArchon 05-06-04, 08:21 PM	One simple question why is a book about the good guys rated mature?
Veton 05-06-04, 08:27 PM	Because it deals with mature issues.
jafyfe 05-06-04, 09:08 PM	Because only good guys can be mature
Xenocide 05-07-04, 04:22 AM	Generally because you don't want immature players using any of the stuff in that book: Player: I attack the Gold Dragon. DM: Ummm, you're a Vassal of Bahamut, dedicated to the aid of good dragons and the slaying of evil ones. Player: But he has a sword that does extra damage to red dragons and I need it. DM: If he wanted to give it to you, he would have. Part of being LG is respecting someone else's property. Player: I could use it more. DM: Will you please reconsider? Player: I attack him. DM: Okay, you're now CN, your platinum armor corrodes to dust. As it does, your sword starts doing damage as you are no longer good. Player: This sucks.
pokemaniacbill 05-07-04, 04:30 AM	That's stupid people, not immature people. It's mature so some dip named Bob can tell me I'm not allowed to buy it because I'm not eighteen, so I beat him with it, leave my money and leave. Really? Cause people are dumber'n hell.
Revelation 05-07-04, 05:38 AM	It deals with issues of morals, torture, redemption, even touches on sexuality. I'd agree that it isn't necessary to give it a mature rating. I like the discourses in it and many an Awful Good paladin could be improved if their player read this book. I think wizards were trying to cover themselves against attacks that they were irresponsible. I'd much rather they put in a disclaimer like Palladium have done since the anti role playing nuts were strong in the late 80's.
Thorak 05-07-04, 08:13 AM	IIRC, there's also some minor topless nudity in one picture in the book.
jafyfe 05-07-04, 12:03 PM	It is more for protection of Law Suits from parents. The game can be played by children(by children i mean a 5 year old how knows how to read and add can play), if a child purchase a book of material that a parent deems inapporiate, the company can be held liable. With that in mind, WotC did what the could to defend themselves. Bob the bookstore guy is equal to the Simpson's comic book guy. So of course he will use whatever little authority he has to smash your dreams. Lastly, topless nudity can be found in the MM.
Edymnion 05-07-04, 02:56 PM	Originally posted by Thorak IIRC, there's also some minor topless nudity in one picture in the book. Yeah, like there's none of that in the 3.5 Monster Manual coughdryadcoughnymphcough. Real reason is that its the counterpart book for the Book of Vile Darkness, the Yin for it's Yang. Thats the real reason. Also, younger players are going to rant and rail over staying Exalted. PC: I smack the kid out of my way. DM: You lose all of your Exalted powers. PC: No way! DM: Yes way, you struck an innocent child. You might as well roll up a new character, this ones useless now.
Thorak 05-07-04, 05:41 PM	Another reason is that the power provided by exalted abilities is supposed to be offset by the difficulty in staying Exalted. To expand on Edymnion's example, not only does it require the Exalted player to be mature enough not to smack innocent children out of the way, it requires a DM mature enough to understand why that's going to break his exalted status. And that the two of them can avoid descending into a "Does not!" "Does too!" argument over it.
pog 05-08-04, 06:05 AM	WotC just being careful - law and stuff. Also, has as already been mentioned, relating it to BoVD. Some of the content of BoED is more suited to mature audiences - not so much the pictures ( even the lesbian succubi on p.7 ) , but more the ethical discussions. I think young children would have difficulty addressing issues such as altruism, sacrifice, atonement, celibacy etc. Also, certain aspects sound very similar to real-life religions: stigmata, sainthood etc. and this could cause offense ( see p.4 ). The book explains its mature rating on p.4
Eldren 05-08-04, 03:26 PM	Admittedly, there's a lot less that's overtly designed for mature individuals in the Book of Exalted Deeds than in its predecessor, the Book of Vile Darkness (believe me, I wouldn't want anyone under about the age of 15 looking at that book, and I'd be wary about a 15 year-old...). Thing about it is, a lot of the "exalted" material in the book draws from real-world religions and religious history, things like stigmata (drawn from Catholic doctrine), issues of morality when it comes to honoring certain types of love that some individuals would consider "deviant" (like the photo of a Paladin holding a glowing sword at two succubi, and the caption reading, "A Paladin must choose between destroying evil and honoring love"), etc. As well, although it's honestly a piddly little issue, the queen of the eladrin, Morwel, is bisexual, as she has both a male and a female consort. These are just the things I can think of off the top of my head. There are also holy relics that were used originally as torture devices, but the final gist of it is that the book deals with issues of morality and ethics, as the introduction says, and those things, in order to have true impact on the campaign, need to be dealt with maturely, and not simply reduced to the level of "common Good" that the Core Rules alignments represent. You're a lot safer reading the Book of Exalted Deeds than the Book of Vile Darkness. I have a feeling that the best way to put it is that the Book of Vile Darkness is for mature players because of graphic content, while the Book of Exalted Deeds is for mature players because of graphic concepts. You aren't going to see much in the way of nudity in this book (and the nudity that was in the BoVD was just sick...), and there isn't even much in the way of nasty battle imagery (the worst I can think of is the poor drawing of a beholder being affected by an affliction, which is a Good-aligned "poison"). It's just more of a conceptual thing where you ought to treat the issues of morality and ethics with the maturity and gravity they deserve to be treated with.
Edymnion 05-08-04, 03:45 PM	Originally posted by Eldren You're a lot safer reading the Book of Exalted Deeds than the Book of Vile Darkness. Please, I have seen Viler things on UPN than I've seen in the Book of Vile Darkness. BoVD is nothing more than gross, thats all. Little torture and drugs thrown in for good measure, but other than that, its all about plain gross stuff. Bloody spells, mean stuff, but NOTHING thats really vile. BoVD is upper PG-13, lower R, most definatly nowhere near NC-17 for anything.
Eldren 05-09-04, 06:08 AM	I agree that the Book of Vile Darkness isn't NC-17, and probably isn't even in the realm of an R rating, were it to somehow fall under the purview of the MPAA. Thing about it is, you have to realize that, in general, Dungeons & Dragons tries to make itself a viable hobby for younger kids; most kids tend to get involved with the game between the ages of 10-12. At that age, parents are (or at least should be) really wary of what they let into their kids' heads, and handing 'em a book that shows things like a demonic-looking woman with one breast ripped off, leaving nothing but a stitched scar in its place, or spells with names like Mindrape, or spells which tear someone's hand off and have it attack them (Grave Revenge), or rules for drug addiction, or rules for dealing with psychoses like necrophilia, sadism, masochism, etc., are all things that ought to be handled very gingerly. As such, it was sensible for WotC to make the Book of Vile Darkness a Mature Line product. I agree with you, a lot of the book is just plain gross. Stephen King once said in "Danse Macabre" "If you can't terrify them, horrify them, if you can't horrify them, scare them, and if you can't scare them, go for the gross out." The BoVD goes for the gross out almost unilaterally. Most of the art and a lot of the spell effects, many of which are just for spells which aren't even Vile spells (i.e., spells that aren't specific to either divine or arcane magic, but which carry the additional costs for casting), are gruesome. It's kinda like slogging through a diseased charnel house a lot of the time. You're gonna come out the other side feeling pretty icky, and really wishing for a shower, assuming you didn't contract some horrid and undiscovered disease as you wandered through the filth. The Book of Exalted Deeds approaches things a lot differently, and I honestly found it pretty curious that the book was intentionally laid out to mirror the layout of the Book of Vile Darkness. While I understand that the forces of Good are going to come up with direct ways to countermand the worst offenses of Evil, making the Book of Exalted Deeds a near mirror-image of the Book of Vile Darkness probably does something of a disservice to the people who were expecting more. Coming up with spells whose sole purpose is to counteract Vile spells is kinda pointless. Even Dispel Magic has more uses than just countering Charm Person, and Darkness certainly has more purposes than just negating Daylight. I would agree with you that the Book of Vile Darkness probably deserves a strong PG-13 rating. Thing about it is, with a couple of notable exceptions in the Monster Manual (the dryad and the nymph, primarily), the majority of the material from the Core Rulebooks is on the low end of PG. There are Disney movies that approach more "controversial" material than most Dungeons & Dragons rulebooks. But since the Book of Vile Darkness is on the high end of PG-13, and the other D&D rulebooks, by comparison, are a lot more tame, it ought to be approached with some caution by someone who isn't aware of what they're about to get themselves into. I have yet to find a gaming shop in my area that's willing to sell the book to anyone under the age of around 15. Even my comic book shop, which has behind its counters action figures for Jenna Jameson, has anniversary-edition figures for Playboy models, and has adult-oriented comic books in full view of store patrons (although they're still behind the actual counter, and aren't sold to anyone under 18), refuses to sell the Book of Vile Darkness to anyone under the age of 17. A lot of stores initially took that approach with the Book of Exalted Deeds, until they had the chance to see that it would be a lot safer in the hands of someone around the age of 13 or 14 (maybe a 13 year-old with parental permission or accompaniment). It isn't as overtly disgusting and "in your face" as the Book of Vile Darkness was, and I agree that it's borderline as to whether or not it ultimately deserved to be part of the Mature Products line.