Post/Author/DateTime	Post
telechus 05-02-05, 03:47 PM	I'm playing an aasimar cleric of Horus-Re (lvl 4, Sun and Retribution domains). Our party was ambushed by a bounty hunter during the night. He managed to catch the two party members on watch offguard and subdue them and tied up the entire party. The NPC who he was after had slipped away before the ambush and he partially untied the bard PC to help find the NPC. The bard was directed to walk off and return in a few minutes, his hands being tied. The bard was told by the hunter that he had no problem killing him if he was uncooperative. The bard stupidly undid his bonds and just walked back to the hunter and was promptly killed. In the meanwhile, the rest of the party managed to wake up, untie themselves and capture the hunter. We then discovered the now dead bard. So now I'm faced with 2 basic options: 1) take him to the nearest city and let the local authorities deal with him 2) execute him I'm leaning toward executing him: 1) he's killed a man in cold blood 2) he's after a person whom I've been instructed to protect by my deity 3) letting him live would probably increase the odds of others finding us thus putting my charge in more danger and he may escape and try this again OTOH: 1) he was in a sense killing in self-defense 2) he's captured and is not evil (I have detect evil from the Godsight feat) Anyone care to venture opinions or suggestions on what my character should do?
Ut-Napishtim 05-02-05, 04:09 PM	Well the Pharoh is supposed to recieve his "divine right" from Re-Horakhty, and has to deliver on that by ruling fairly and justly. While vengeance is indeed part of his portfolio I don't see anything in Deities and Demigods describing his Clerics as judge, jury, and executioner. In my mind that signifies your character would weigh the authority of the Pharoh and/or his appointed courts very highly (you worship the same god,) and would want to ensure the bounty hunter got due process because denying him such would not be respecting the dignity of sentient life and might blemish the Pharoh's reputation for good - as well as the Cleric's own. Nobility first, then supreme vengeance. :twocents:
Gworraent 05-02-05, 04:33 PM	KILL THE PIG! SLIT HIS THROAT! SPILL HIS BLOOD! KILL THE PIG! SLIT HIS THROAT! SPILL HIS BLOOD! KILL THE PIG! SLIT HIS THROAT! SPILL HIS BLOOD! he is a cold blooded murderer and you need a reputation of someone who you dont wanna mess around with
Gedrin 05-02-05, 04:46 PM	It sounds like you are in reasonably civilized lands and it would be reasonable to take the criminal to the local authorities. Since there is, apparently, a "rightful authority" in the area... It all depends on if you believe: A: One has the right to act as judge and executioner for those who have wronged them, even to the poing of execution, regardless of local custom or law (which I presume prohibits this sort of thing). or B: It's probably not a good idea to have people taking their own vengance against criminals, and it's better to let the apointed legal authorities handle matters of criminal justice. Now if the normal codes of conduct and rules of society don't apply to you, you might believe that "normal folk" should act under B, but it's okay for you, because you're special, to act under A.
telechus 05-02-05, 04:48 PM	In my mind that signifies your character would weigh the authority of the Pharoh and/or his appointed courts very highly (you worship the same god,) and would want to ensure the bounty hunter got due process because denying him such would not be respecting the dignity of sentient life and might blemish the Pharoh's reputation for good - as well as the Cleric's own. Nobility first, then supreme vengeance. :twocents: We are playing in the Forgotten Realms so the cleric is from Mulhorand. However we are in Western Faerun, he is attempting to bring the faith to Secomber. So my character wouldnt think of the local authority is being the same as Horusstep III. But that is a good point. I'll try to remember that, Nobility first, then supreme vengeance.
telechus 05-02-05, 04:56 PM	It sounds like you are in reasonably civilized lands and it would be reasonable to take the criminal to the local authorities. Since there is, apparently, a "rightful authority" in the area... It all depends on if you believe: A: One has the right to execute act as judge and executioner for those who have wronged them, regardless of local custom or law. or B: It's probably not a good idea to have people taking their own vengance against criminals, and it's better to let the apointed legal authorities hander matters of criminal justice. Now if the normal codes of conduct and rules of society don't apply to you, you might believe that "normal folk" should act under B, but it's okay for you, because you're special, to act under A. All the other times I've encountered bad guys, once defeated I've tried to keep as many as possible alive to hand over to the law. One time I opted to simply tie a couple of caravan robbers to a tree because I couldn't take them to the authorities but I couldn't kill them either. In this particular case, though, I do feel that his guilt is undeniable and he is a danger to my charge. I do also agree that vigilantism is not a desirable or good thing.
Ut-Napishtim 05-03-05, 03:04 PM	We are playing in the Forgotten Realms so the cleric is from Mulhorand. However we are in Western Faerun, he is attempting to bring the faith to Secomber. So my character wouldnt think of the local authority is being the same as Horusstep III. But that is a good point. I'll try to remember that, Nobility first, then supreme vengeance. Oh okay, I didn't know that. No, he probably wouldn't regard the loacl authority as highly as Horusstep III, but as a visitor in a foreign land he'd probably want to present a good image of himself, his nation, and his faith - especially if he's looking to spread that faith. :twocents:
SureFoot 05-03-05, 03:30 PM	Killing a helpless prisoner is an evil act. No two ways about that. It's possible to mitigate the degree of evil by cirucmstances; however, if the prisoner is not evil, that makes it much harder to mitigate the evil deed of killing him.
Krelios 05-03-05, 03:47 PM	Bull. There's no such thing as absolutes.
gavalicks 05-03-05, 04:06 PM	Easy give him an impoversihed weapon, he is armed and a threat. Kill him. or You can give him a weapon that once he grabs it goes bomb killing him. or posion the handle have him touch it, disarm him, tie him up and have him die a slow death. or spill some blood hang him over and leave him to the animals. That takes away guilt, and works with the laws of the land. Someone threatens your life you take them out.
Gedrin 05-03-05, 04:32 PM	I'm not sure his obvious guilt or the chance he might escape makes much of a difference. I'm sure we wouldn't want to have police officers summarily executing criminals because they "were obviously guilty" and "would be dangerous if they escaped". It sounds like you're well able to defend yourselves under normal circumstances, and wouldn't really have a problem getting him to the local law. You've got spells and such that could go far toward helping in that as well as just tying, gagging, and putting a hood over the prisoner. Of course, if you think your situation makes you special enough to not have to obey the rules that even the local guard is bound by...
weasel fierce 05-03-05, 05:22 PM	Easy give him an impoversihed weapon, he is armed and a threat. Kill him. or You can give him a weapon that once he grabs it goes bomb killing him. or posion the handle have him touch it, disarm him, tie him up and have him die a slow death. or spill some blood hang him over and leave him to the animals. That takes away guilt, and works with the laws of the land. Someone threatens your life you take them out. Sounds like you would enjoy the Knight Errant from Hackmaster :)
Meshakhad 05-03-05, 08:51 PM	Redeem him. The BoED has rules for this. It is the right thing to do. Plus, you get XP for it equal to defeating him (yes, you already beat him, and you get the XP again). Then, make a plea deal in court. His life, in exchange for joining you. After that, he will be a VERY loyal cohort. THAT is the right thing to do. If you fail to redeem him, then turn him over to the authorities.
J.B. 05-03-05, 10:43 PM	Why are you making this difficult on yourself. He killed one of your own without warrant and probably seeks the same for your charge. KILL HIM! If you're still having doubts then let one of the other characters in the group off him. They probably want him dead, same as you, but have none of your restrictions/qualms and your hands will be clean. It's a win/win situation.
crazysamaritan 05-04-05, 12:29 AM	Redeem him. The BoED has rules for this. It is the right thing to do. Plus, you get XP for it equal to defeating him (yes, you already beat him, and you get the XP again). Then, make a plea deal in court. His life, in exchange for joining you. After that, he will be a VERY loyal cohort. THAT is the right thing to do. If you fail to redeem him, then turn him over to the authorities. I like this....
telechus 05-04-05, 12:53 PM	I'm not sure his obvious guilt or the chance he might escape makes much of a difference. I'm sure we wouldn't want to have police officers summarily executing criminals because they "were obviously guilty" and "would be dangerous if they escaped". It sounds like you're well able to defend yourselves under normal circumstances, and wouldn't really have a problem getting him to the local law. You've got spells and such that could go far toward helping in that as well as just tying, gagging, and putting a hood over the prisoner. Of course, if you think your situation makes you special enough to not have to obey the rules that even the local guard is bound by... Yes we'll be able to get him to the local authorities. Part of the problem is that the party is really of composed of two PC's (the now dead bard) and my character. The rest are NPC's. Two of which help out now and then for own reasons (neutral rogues). The other members are a paladin who's basically my pupil, my charge (who's basically crazy and barely functional in a mental way), and the bard's servant/slave (again a little out of his mind). If we had gotten ambushed w/o the rogues, chances are my charge would be handed over to whomever put up the bounty, as we would have been unable to escape. So I am definately concerned about the danger to my charge.
telechus 05-04-05, 12:55 PM	Redeem him. The BoED has rules for this. It is the right thing to do. Plus, you get XP for it equal to defeating him (yes, you already beat him, and you get the XP again). Then, make a plea deal in court. His life, in exchange for joining you. After that, he will be a VERY loyal cohort. THAT is the right thing to do. If you fail to redeem him, then turn him over to the authorities. This is a very good idea. Since my BoED is at home, what is involved in redeeming someone? Do I need to engage in a ritual, spells, some kind of diplomacy or other skill check?
telechus 05-04-05, 01:14 PM	Why are you making this difficult on yourself. He killed one of your own without warrant and probably seeks the same for your charge. KILL HIM! If you're still having doubts then let one of the other characters in the group off him. They probably want him dead, same as you, but have none of your restrictions/qualms and your hands will be clean. It's a win/win situation. My hands wouldn't be clean. How is letting someone else kill him any different than me killing him? It's not any different then hiring an assasin as opposed to being one. You are still complicit in the act of murder.
Dunelord 05-04-05, 01:21 PM	What is your aligenment?
telechus 05-04-05, 01:26 PM	What is your aligenment? It's lawful good.
Aubri 05-04-05, 04:34 PM	This kind of thing cropped up in vietnam more than once. You capture an enemy soldier; you're deep behind enemy lines. What do you do? 1) Let him go: He tells his friends you're there. Can't do that. 2) Leave him tied up: If he's found, see #1. 3) Kill him: Against the Geneva convention. The best solution they came up with was not to give people time to surrender... or else, well, what Geneva convention? In your case, though, I think you have a few options. I'd say execute him if you're positive he's guilty of sufficient crimes to warrant it and you're outside any viable jurisdiction. (Note, this is only proper because of the nature of your god. Heironius probably wouldn't approve.) Listen to his side of the story first and give him the chance to repent and ask for mercy. If you can put him under a zone of truth, do so. If there IS a local authority, and he's broken local laws, turn him over for punishment. I get the impression this might be too time consuming--turning him over is going to require you to testify against him, so be prepared to hang around for a week or so. If you really can't, then let them know who they can contact to get ahold of you (your home base temple, for example.) Giving him a weapon so you can kill him or doing anything Gavalicks suggested is as evil as killing him outright--the fact that he's now armed doesn't make a difference if you arm him solely to assuage your guilt over murder. "I would as soon destroy a stained glass window as an artist like yourself. However, since I can't have you following me either... *WHACK* Please understand that I hold you in the highest respect." --Westley, The Princess Bride
telechus 05-04-05, 05:28 PM	I'd say execute him if you're positive he's guilty of sufficient crimes to warrant it and you're outside any viable jurisdiction. (Note, this is only proper because of the nature of your god. Heironius probably wouldn't approve.) Listen to his side of the story first and give him the chance to repent and ask for mercy. If you can put him under a zone of truth, do so. If there IS a local authority, and he's broken local laws, turn him over for punishment. I get the impression this might be too time consuming--turning him over is going to require you to testify against him, so be prepared to hang around for a week or so. If you really can't, then let them know who they can contact to get ahold of you (your home base temple, for example.) We are about 6 hours away from Secomber, so jurisdiction isn't the problem. I am concerned of two things happening: 1) I get the impression the prisoner is rather good at what he does. I would think then it would possible for him to escape and came after us again. 2) He tells someone else about the bounty, providing details that weren't available in the original notice (it only describes my charge, not the rest of the party), thus making it easier for others to locate us. Giving him a weapon so you can kill him or doing anything Gavalicks suggested is as evil as killing him outright--the fact that he's now armed doesn't make a difference if you arm him solely to assuage your guilt over murder. With this I agree, those aren't viable options for this character. I'm going to look into the redemption option or to simply warn the prisoner not tell anyone of us or came after us or he will be killed.
J.B. 05-04-05, 05:56 PM	Quote: telechus My hands wouldn't be clean. How is letting someone else kill him any different than me killing him? It's not any different then hiring an assasin as opposed to being one. You are still complicit in the act of murder. Telechus you silly person. Your character wouldn't actually turn a blind eye to this bounty-hunter's killing, but rather, in the heat of the moment, the other characters "just" anger towards this person would lead them into killing him. However, since your party is made up mostly of NPC's who may not really care about the dead bard, and you have a up-&-coming paladin who is your pupil (and who you have to set an example for), everything I suggested obviously can't be done. So, unfortunately, you are best option seems to be Meshakhad's idea. I just don't like leaving behind an enemy who may come back to bite you in the ass.
Andrew_980 05-04-05, 05:56 PM	there is nothing wrong with killing him, this "helpless" BS aside a cleric of retribution/justice deity usually IS trained to judge and execution is just fine. the "i'm good so i let the judge have him killed i'm guilt free" excuse don't fly no more than having your freind do it while your back is turned. for all who don't agree with executing him and say "take him to the athorities" thing about this your are handind a man into being killed while helpless, tortured (by guards or other prisoners), slavery, he has been kidnapped and denied his freedom, ect. ANY punishment the state uses is "evil" for anyone else? Just kill him and be done with it! Redeeming him is a fools plan unless the DM wants a "good always redeems" campeign, otherwise he must want to be good to change. evil is usually having too much fun to ever want to change, you can't hug them and hand them a kitten before teaching them to bake cookies and expect them to break down and thank you for showing them the error of their ways.
Darth Doom 05-04-05, 11:53 PM	Do what our group did. Hang him from the nearest tree with "Murderer" carved on his chest.
Sargon 05-05-05, 01:17 AM	Do what our group did. Hang him from the nearest tree with "Murderer" carved on his chest. awsome No one will ever know it was you.. Stab him in the liver and let him bleed to death and think about whats his has done.. if he is innocent he won't die.. if he is guilty then he will.. bassically your just leaving it up to the gods.
Callista 05-05-05, 11:50 AM	Killing a helpless prisoner is an evil act. No two ways about that.What?! Then when you hang a murderer, you're killing a helpelss prisoner, and that's evil? Nonono. The debate here is between Law and Chaos, not Good and Evil. Are you empowered to execute a murderer? If so, then do so. Humanely, of course. If you're not, then doing so would be a chaotic act: you're going against the rules of your society. Your god (and the people around you) may or may not understand why you took it upon yourself to execute the man. It still wouldn't be evil, though. And if you executed him yourself because you knew he might get away and do more evil if you didn't, then I'd call it CG.
Gedrin 05-05-05, 01:38 PM	I don't think it's particularly evil to kill a known murderer. However, I do think it's a bad idea to set the standard that it's okay for people to go out and kill those they believe are murderers. Further, I think setting that standard would lead to greater suffering in the world. It sounds like there is one criminal and several people holding him captive. Bound, gagged, hooded, stripped and under constant guard, I think they should be able to keep him contained for the six hours needed to get him to Secomber. So, it is a situation where most people would be required to turn him over to the law, and telechus and his party are far more powerful (ie capable of dealing with this within the law) than most people. If there is some reason to believe that the criminal would still be able to escape, he could be rendered unconcious. The only way I see to get around the whole "it's a bad idea for people to go around killing folks who've wronged them" is if telechus thinks his situation is special or if he thinks his character is special.
SammasterT 05-06-05, 11:12 AM	Well, lets see. Its evil to kill a prisoner, even though every known culture has done and is doing it since the beginning of time. And naturally, its much better to deprive a man of his liberty and self-respect and imprison him for the rest of his natural life at the tax-payers expense in the vain hope that by the time he's 80 he'll be reformed and ready to reenter society as a responsible money-circulating consumer. Yes, slavery and eternal degredation in exchange for a continued pulse!!! What an exchange!!! What moral superiority!!! Seriously, this is a matter of where would killing him land YOU in the eyes of the local authorities? If the locals want the hassle of having to pay for a trial, incarceration and the ever ineffectual, and indeed, counter-productive rehab, and love the idea so much that they'll do all of that stuff for YOU if you kill the scum, then by all means hand him over to the local authorities. Its their grave, let them lay in it. Of course, so long as dead bodies aren't turning up for no reason, with no killer proclaiming the deed, and thereby breeding suspicion, mistrust, and division in the local community, the locals might very well prefer that you frag'im and bag'im. The person in question is a killer. You KNOW he is a killer. A judge or jury from the local community haven't a clue whether he killed you're comrade or not. YOU DO. You and yours experienced a loss, not them. It's a no brainer if you ask me. Are the locals going to compensate you for the loss YOU experienced at the hands of one of theirs? As a priest you might want to ask your god what do, flipping a coin or casting augury or whatever to gauge the response. In the RW many a Roman soldier and Catholic missionary was saved by the fact that, before the Teutonic folk put any captured enemies or criminals to death (what else should they have done with them?) they consulted the will of the gods via the casting of the lots. This was especially important in regards to blaspheme and sacrilege, the property and repute of the gods being whats at stake and not, in such cases, the pride of some fantastically arrogant uber-primate like man. Hell amongst the early Teutonic folk a man couldn't even be imprisoned or flogged without the consent of the high priest, even under martial law, and even then he could only allow such in accord with the will of the god of glory.
Aubri 05-06-05, 04:50 PM	It's evil to kill a prisoner who has surrendered. It's not evil to execute a wrongdoer for his crimes. There's a difference.
Andrew_980 05-06-05, 07:30 PM	they surrender to save their own skin and nothing more so there is no differance. they still commited the act for wich they need to die
Aubri 05-06-05, 09:58 PM	But not unless you're sure, it's allowed by your faith, and is done in an official manner and duely reported. And you should always listen to your prisoner's story and give due weight to any mitigating circumstances. Giving him a chance to repent is nice, too.
Lincoln Hills 05-07-05, 03:35 PM	My goodness, you are a blood-thirsty lot. Did your mommies not hug you? Let's turn this situation on its head. You are playing, let us say, a LN fighter/rogue. You are a professional. You do not kill unnecessarily, but you will do so if somebody threatens you. You have accepted a contract to bring a certain NPC in, dead or alive. He has chosen to escape you by buddying up to a powerful gang of good-aligned adventurers. Using superior tactics, you catch both of the people on guard unawares - but instead of killing them, you subdue and bind them. The remaining folks are easily overcome and bound in their sleep. Your target, however, has slipped away somehow: you unbind the legs of one of your prisoners and bring him along to help draw out the target. Instead, your prisoner finishes untying himself and tries to attack you. Time is pressing. You gave this fool a chance. You shoot him dead. Just then, the folks you left tied up back at camp come swarming up (should have maxed out your Use Rope skill!) and capture YOU. Then, since you hurt their pride, they kill you without trial and hang you up for the vultures. Good-aligned? Sure... if you're Quentin Tarantino.
The Wasp 05-08-05, 03:11 AM	I'm playing an aasimar cleric of Horus-Re (lvl 4, Sun and Retribution domains). Our party was ambushed by a bounty hunter during the night. He managed to catch the two party members on watch offguard and subdue them and tied up the entire party. The NPC who he was after had slipped away before the ambush and he partially untied the bard PC to help find the NPC. The bard was directed to walk off and return in a few minutes, his hands being tied. The bard was told by the hunter that he had no problem killing him if he was uncooperative. The bard stupidly undid his bonds and just walked back to the hunter and was promptly killed. In the meanwhile, the rest of the party managed to wake up, untie themselves and capture the hunter. We then discovered the now dead bard. So now I'm faced with 2 basic options: 1) take him to the nearest city and let the local authorities deal with him 2) execute him I'm leaning toward executing him: 1) he's killed a man in cold blood 2) he's after a person whom I've been instructed to protect by my deity 3) letting him live would probably increase the odds of others finding us thus putting my charge in more danger and he may escape and try this again OTOH: 1) he was in a sense killing in self-defense 2) he's captured and is not evil (I have detect evil from the Godsight feat) Anyone care to venture opinions or suggestions on what my character should do? I see a conflict here. Was the man threatened by the bard? If so,then he hasn't committed murder, and you can't kill him. If, on the other hand, the bard was not a threat, and it really was a murder, then: #1. I doubt the guy is actually neutral. Check for an item of undetectable alignment. Anyone who is willing to murder someone for being uncooperative is evil. #2. In which case, you are fully justified in killing him. In most societies, the punishment for murder is death. Administering it yourself might be chaotic, but it iscertainly not evil.
Aubri 05-09-05, 05:25 PM	Good-aligned? Sure... if you're Quentin Tarantino. HEH! That would almost be sig-worthy, if the set-up posts weren't so unweildy. :clap: I think there is something to be said for "frontier justice", if it's justified. A murderer for hire is still a murderer, after all. As I said before, proper authorities is a better solution, but if it's pressing that you get on down the road or if there's no authority around, the paladin is certainly qualified to mete out punishment. Heironius promotes justice as well as chivalry and honor, after all--it really comes down to intent more than action. This guy is a bounty hunter, we don't need his scum--er, sorry, I mean, he's undoubtedly murdered before, and he's certain to do it again unless he honestly repents--and not at the tip of a sword. As I say, there's a lot more to being judge than execution. Edit: Yes, I know the paladin in question worships Horus, but in that case he's even more judgey. :)
Gedrin 05-09-05, 05:37 PM	I think I'm seeing the light here. Even though most people would be required to turn the guy over to the local authorities, Even though the party vastly overpowers the prisoner and would have no trouble containing him, Even though it's within a day to get to the local law enforcement and turn him over, Even though there's no pressing matter to crate a time conflict... The party isn't bound by the normal rules of society. They have the right to execute criminals. Normal people may need to obey these rules, but the party is special and the normal rules just don't apply to them. That about right?
SoulLord 05-09-05, 05:49 PM	Once in a party one of the enemies, who on top of it was a psionic surrendered to us, we knew it was evil and some party members insisted on executing him. Just don't acept it, give him a weapon so it will have a fair fight and be done with it.
Ty 05-09-05, 05:55 PM	Let him go and play with the daisies and puppies and frolic with the elves after murdering one of your comrades and attacking you... Blech. I'll get hung by the peanut gallery but I agree that the bounty hunter should be terminated with extreme prejudice. Personally, if you drag him back to the local authority, I find it quite ludicrous (wasting 12 hours travel time plus that time needed for the authorities to convict him of muder with your group sitting around as relevant witnesses). If this guy is a LICENSED bounty hunter acting under color of law, you have a different story. Keep in mind the following: Secomber is wilderness where it's been pretty much established that the law extends as far as the length of your sword. If you have questions on that, go read Ed Greenwood's answers Kuje has compiled. Second, are you an exalted character? If yes, you're in a bit of a pickle there George. I think at that time, you may be obligated to at least attempt a redemption. If you're not exalted, you don't have to behave like it. Third, keep in mind that you are in the equivalent of the Middle Ages. Folks, this is the type of society that walled off city streets to contain the plague, leaving people to die of starvation/thirst/effects of disease. Justice was swift, it was harsh, and it wasn't a trial by jury for the most part. Fourth, you are lawful good; not lawful stupid. He's a man who has killed in cold blood, attacked you without provocation or investigation as to your identity, aims, etc. Fifth, you are an adventurer. Act like it. You may believe in the power of good and law, but on the other hand, you don't sit back and let others act when you can act. If you have a question about the morality of something, you have one simple tool; augury and divination. Ask your deity and accept the answer. Sixth, stop asking people on the boards. We range from bloodthirsty hack and slashers to mamby-pamby mama's boys who look at the world through rose-colored glasses. The people you should be talking to are your DM and fellow players. We don't run your game, we don't participate in it (for the most part).