Expedition to the meat grinder [Archive] - Wizards Community

Expedition to the meat grinder [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HiFructose
07-18-07, 02:37 PM My party has recently started running the Expedition to Undermountain campaign. We've had 2 sessions involving forays into the dungeon and a couple more sessions with character creation and introductions. Our character history is as follows:

Session 1:
1) Level 1 Kobald Wizard
2) Level 1 Dwarven Fighter
3) Level 1 Human Warlock (KIA)
4) Level 1 Dwarven Cleric NPC (KIA)

Ouch, 2 people died in the first session. That was followed by...

Sesson 2:
1) Level 1 Kobald Wizard
2) Level 1 Dwarven Fighter (KIA)
3) Level 1 Human Cleric
4) Level 1 Halfling Rogue NPC (KIA)

Two more character deaths. Ugh. Of the six characters who have entered Undermountain only two (2) are still alive.

So, here's the problem: We are clearly overmatched by the dungeon. This is compounded by the fact that we only have 3 players and our attempts to get more have not worked. I'd rather not ask for more NPC help as they tend to slow the game down and move the focus off of the PCs. On the other hand, I don't like playing more than one character at a time.

So, assuming that we want to keep trying to do this Expedition, what should my party do to turn the tide?
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants
07-18-07, 02:47 PM well it really matters how you have been dieing. There could be problems with rules knowledge, possibly the specific encounters are not balanced around EL1, possibly you are extremely unoptomized, or otherwise not playing to your strength. Etc. Give some more information and we might be able to help you some.
HiFructose
07-18-07, 03:00 PM Well, I'm not sure how familiar you are with Expedition to Undermountain... but here are the circumstances of our deaths:

Near wipe #1 occured in our second encounter. A mimic (!) surprised us and with his grappling abilities and reach made pretty short work of us. The two characters that did survive were left for dead and managed to stabalize, eventually regaining consciousness.

Near wipe #2 occured when we were trying to leave the dungeon after retrieving the corpses of our first party. You get in and out of undermountain by being lowered by a rope on a winch. We were on our way back up the well when this weird magnetic slug creature (a metalmaster) used his magnetism powers to pull the armored folk off of the rope. They took falling damage (2d6) and got wasted by the slug. Heck, our fighter took 16 damage in one hit.

As you can see, these encounters are killers for a level 1 party. Plus, I'm just not sure how much one can optimize at level 1.
Matthew77
07-18-07, 03:28 PM Yeah, the first adventure in undermountain is quite hard.

I am planning on starting my players at level 2 characters when we start the campaign.

Oddly, I've skimmed ahead and the higher level encounters for when the characters are supposed to be levels 7-9 seem rather weak.
archerpwr
07-18-07, 03:30 PM For a party of three making it a gestalt game amounts to the power of about 4 regular PCs. That would fix the power issue without NPCs or more players.
Saragon42
07-18-07, 04:58 PM For a party of three making it a gestalt game amounts to the power of about 4 regular PCs. That would fix the power issue without NPCs or more players.

I was going to recommend gestalt as well -- that will make the game move much faster than trying to have three players with a PC and a cohort/follower/NPC for each. (Although to put things in perspective, the Birthright game I'm playing that has five PCs, each of whom has a Lieutenant mixed with the occasional animal companion or summon.)
Jexil
07-18-07, 05:57 PM Pal, I feel for you. My group is also currently running Expedition to Undermountain, and it is indeed brutal. The problem is that while the campign is supposedly intended for 1st level characters, many of the intitial encounters are clearly EL 4 or 5. That's a sure recipe for a TPK. Seriously, I don't know what they were thinking.
HiFructose
07-18-07, 09:03 PM For a party of three making it a gestalt game amounts to the power of about 4 regular PCs. That would fix the power issue without NPCs or more players.

Hmm, this does sound like a good idea. I'll run it by my DM and see what he thinks.

There is another issue that this brings up however. One of our players is brand new to D&D. I ran Barrow of the Forgotten King a couple of months ago and she played through that, but this is only her second adventure. Her character died in the first session (the human warlock) but she took it pretty well and was eager to try again. Currently she is running the human cleric. If we do go gestalt, she would need a character that won't overwhelm her. Perhaps taking paladin as the other half?
MichaelSomething
07-19-07, 01:39 AM Don't feel too bad HiF; my party has 8 people in it and Undermountian is still brutal, infliciting heavy loses. Our DM has to hold back a good deal to avoid TPKs. The solution is to know when to run.
danielinthewolvesden
07-19-07, 02:56 AM For a party of three making it a gestalt game amounts to the power of about 4 regular PCs. That would fix the power issue without NPCs or more players.

Yes, but make sure all 4 roles are filled, not just 4 arcanist/tanks. And, I would suggest that Gestalting stops at level 4 or 5, from then on only one class.
Jexil
07-19-07, 12:31 PM Don't feel too bad HiF; my party has 8 people in it and Undermountian is still brutal, infliciting heavy loses. Our DM has to hold back a good deal to avoid TPKs. The solution is to know when to run.

The problem is that there’s no margin for error with 1st level characters. If a low level party is seriously outmatched by a hostile creature, they really need to retreat before they engage it. Once combat has begun, it may be too late, unless you’re willing to abandon fallen party members. Unfortunately, the kind of foresight needed to evade such deadly encounters requires that players instantly recognize the creature, remember its CR, and have no qualms about having their character act on the basis of player knowledge.

That’s actually my beef with a lot of the adventures published by Wizards, they often seem designed with the assumption that all players are experienced gamers who shamelessly metagame. I prefer not to do that, but some of the adventures don’t give you much chance of survival unless you are willing to. In the Undermountain adventure, our 1st level party readily fled from a construct-type creature because a knowledge arcane check of 14 revealed no information, implying that the thing was CR 5 (or higher!). I personally consider that type of play to be in bad form, but after a couple of near-TPKs, we were more than willing to compromise our principles if it meant not getting our butts handed to us again.
Neutronium_Dragon
07-19-07, 01:51 PM The RPGA is apparently recommending 3rd level to start rather than 1st level, despite what the adventure says - and this is one case where I agree with them. The adventure should never have been advertised as starting at 1st level.

The author of that section has talked about this issue in one of the threads in the new releases forum; essentially, the first adventure was supposed to show how deadly Undermountain was, etc, and deliberately set to "killer" difficulty. I don't think that was a particularly appropriate thing to do, myself.
archerpwr
07-19-07, 02:06 PM Hmm, this does sound like a good idea. I'll run it by my DM and see what he thinks.

There is another issue that this brings up however. One of our players is brand new to D&D. I ran Barrow of the Forgotten King a couple of months ago and she played through that, but this is only her second adventure. Her character died in the first session (the human warlock) but she took it pretty well and was eager to try again. Currently she is running the human cleric. If we do go gestalt, she would need a character that won't overwhelm her. Perhaps taking paladin as the other half?

Paladin would be a simple way to start. Cleric// Figher is also good up til level 4 (that is when you multiclass or prestige class out of fighter). Paladin would only be good for about 3 levels though before wanting to multi or prestige class. If you do gestalt, switch the cleric to cloistered cleric for skill points and lore.
HiFructose
07-19-07, 02:09 PM I'm tempted to agree with you here. While I understand the value of showing players the dangers they are facing (in order to create the right feeling of suspense and tension) I feel it's inappropriate to create encounters that deliberately frustrate players.

More to your point, I don't think we could run away from those encounters. In one of them we were literally in the process of leaving the dungeon when we were ambushed. In the other, the mimic blocked our path out. Even worse, as a player I'd like to keep trying Undermountain as I think it could be fun, and I don't want to waste my DMs money. On the other hand, I think my character would be very skittish to go back down there.
Magnus029
07-19-07, 02:41 PM Clicky here for the take of one of the designers on this adventure (http://seankreynolds.com/boardskr/viewtopic.php?t=2392)
Eater_Of_Souls
07-19-07, 03:12 PM Clicky here for the take of one of the designers on this adventure (http://seankreynolds.com/boardskr/viewtopic.php?t=2392)

What he says seems to be that first level of the dungeon is designed to be deadly as hell for those of 4th level and won't necessarily kill 1st level characters as soon as they enter provided those 1st level characters know what they are doing :P

So if you guys are first timers ask your GM to allow you 4th level characters so you might live past the first level of dungeon without casualties.

Also just because the adventure says it's meant for 1st to 10th level won't necessarily mean it, sure many monsters seem proper on paper. I had some humanoid monsters as opponents in my first ever campaign, they had only 12hp too bad they also did 2d4+3 dmg (big sword + huge strenght) and allmost squashed the party since my group had only one "proper" melee guy.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HiFructose 07-18-07, 02:37 PM	My party has recently started running the Expedition to Undermountain campaign. We've had 2 sessions involving forays into the dungeon and a couple more sessions with character creation and introductions. Our character history is as follows: Session 1: 1) Level 1 Kobald Wizard 2) Level 1 Dwarven Fighter 3) Level 1 Human Warlock (KIA) 4) Level 1 Dwarven Cleric NPC (KIA) Ouch, 2 people died in the first session. That was followed by... Sesson 2: 1) Level 1 Kobald Wizard 2) Level 1 Dwarven Fighter (KIA) 3) Level 1 Human Cleric 4) Level 1 Halfling Rogue NPC (KIA) Two more character deaths. Ugh. Of the six characters who have entered Undermountain only two (2) are still alive. So, here's the problem: We are clearly overmatched by the dungeon. This is compounded by the fact that we only have 3 players and our attempts to get more have not worked. I'd rather not ask for more NPC help as they tend to slow the game down and move the focus off of the PCs. On the other hand, I don't like playing more than one character at a time. So, assuming that we want to keep trying to do this Expedition, what should my party do to turn the tide?
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants 07-18-07, 02:47 PM	well it really matters how you have been dieing. There could be problems with rules knowledge, possibly the specific encounters are not balanced around EL1, possibly you are extremely unoptomized, or otherwise not playing to your strength. Etc. Give some more information and we might be able to help you some.
HiFructose 07-18-07, 03:00 PM	Well, I'm not sure how familiar you are with Expedition to Undermountain... but here are the circumstances of our deaths: Near wipe #1 occured in our second encounter. A mimic (!) surprised us and with his grappling abilities and reach made pretty short work of us. The two characters that did survive were left for dead and managed to stabalize, eventually regaining consciousness. Near wipe #2 occured when we were trying to leave the dungeon after retrieving the corpses of our first party. You get in and out of undermountain by being lowered by a rope on a winch. We were on our way back up the well when this weird magnetic slug creature (a metalmaster) used his magnetism powers to pull the armored folk off of the rope. They took falling damage (2d6) and got wasted by the slug. Heck, our fighter took 16 damage in one hit. As you can see, these encounters are killers for a level 1 party. Plus, I'm just not sure how much one can optimize at level 1.
Matthew77 07-18-07, 03:28 PM	Yeah, the first adventure in undermountain is quite hard. I am planning on starting my players at level 2 characters when we start the campaign. Oddly, I've skimmed ahead and the higher level encounters for when the characters are supposed to be levels 7-9 seem rather weak.
archerpwr 07-18-07, 03:30 PM	For a party of three making it a gestalt game amounts to the power of about 4 regular PCs. That would fix the power issue without NPCs or more players.
Saragon42 07-18-07, 04:58 PM	For a party of three making it a gestalt game amounts to the power of about 4 regular PCs. That would fix the power issue without NPCs or more players. I was going to recommend gestalt as well -- that will make the game move much faster than trying to have three players with a PC and a cohort/follower/NPC for each. (Although to put things in perspective, the Birthright game I'm playing that has five PCs, each of whom has a Lieutenant mixed with the occasional animal companion or summon.)
Jexil 07-18-07, 05:57 PM	Pal, I feel for you. My group is also currently running Expedition to Undermountain, and it is indeed brutal. The problem is that while the campign is supposedly intended for 1st level characters, many of the intitial encounters are clearly EL 4 or 5. That's a sure recipe for a TPK. Seriously, I don't know what they were thinking.
HiFructose 07-18-07, 09:03 PM	For a party of three making it a gestalt game amounts to the power of about 4 regular PCs. That would fix the power issue without NPCs or more players. Hmm, this does sound like a good idea. I'll run it by my DM and see what he thinks. There is another issue that this brings up however. One of our players is brand new to D&D. I ran Barrow of the Forgotten King a couple of months ago and she played through that, but this is only her second adventure. Her character died in the first session (the human warlock) but she took it pretty well and was eager to try again. Currently she is running the human cleric. If we do go gestalt, she would need a character that won't overwhelm her. Perhaps taking paladin as the other half?
MichaelSomething 07-19-07, 01:39 AM	Don't feel too bad HiF; my party has 8 people in it and Undermountian is still brutal, infliciting heavy loses. Our DM has to hold back a good deal to avoid TPKs. The solution is to know when to run.
danielinthewolvesden 07-19-07, 02:56 AM	For a party of three making it a gestalt game amounts to the power of about 4 regular PCs. That would fix the power issue without NPCs or more players. Yes, but make sure all 4 roles are filled, not just 4 arcanist/tanks. And, I would suggest that Gestalting stops at level 4 or 5, from then on only one class.
Jexil 07-19-07, 12:31 PM	Don't feel too bad HiF; my party has 8 people in it and Undermountian is still brutal, infliciting heavy loses. Our DM has to hold back a good deal to avoid TPKs. The solution is to know when to run. The problem is that there’s no margin for error with 1st level characters. If a low level party is seriously outmatched by a hostile creature, they really need to retreat before they engage it. Once combat has begun, it may be too late, unless you’re willing to abandon fallen party members. Unfortunately, the kind of foresight needed to evade such deadly encounters requires that players instantly recognize the creature, remember its CR, and have no qualms about having their character act on the basis of player knowledge. That’s actually my beef with a lot of the adventures published by Wizards, they often seem designed with the assumption that all players are experienced gamers who shamelessly metagame. I prefer not to do that, but some of the adventures don’t give you much chance of survival unless you are willing to. In the Undermountain adventure, our 1st level party readily fled from a construct-type creature because a knowledge arcane check of 14 revealed no information, implying that the thing was CR 5 (or higher!). I personally consider that type of play to be in bad form, but after a couple of near-TPKs, we were more than willing to compromise our principles if it meant not getting our butts handed to us again.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-19-07, 01:51 PM	The RPGA is apparently recommending 3rd level to start rather than 1st level, despite what the adventure says - and this is one case where I agree with them. The adventure should never have been advertised as starting at 1st level. The author of that section has talked about this issue in one of the threads in the new releases forum; essentially, the first adventure was supposed to show how deadly Undermountain was, etc, and deliberately set to "killer" difficulty. I don't think that was a particularly appropriate thing to do, myself.
archerpwr 07-19-07, 02:06 PM	Hmm, this does sound like a good idea. I'll run it by my DM and see what he thinks. There is another issue that this brings up however. One of our players is brand new to D&D. I ran Barrow of the Forgotten King a couple of months ago and she played through that, but this is only her second adventure. Her character died in the first session (the human warlock) but she took it pretty well and was eager to try again. Currently she is running the human cleric. If we do go gestalt, she would need a character that won't overwhelm her. Perhaps taking paladin as the other half? Paladin would be a simple way to start. Cleric// Figher is also good up til level 4 (that is when you multiclass or prestige class out of fighter). Paladin would only be good for about 3 levels though before wanting to multi or prestige class. If you do gestalt, switch the cleric to cloistered cleric for skill points and lore.
HiFructose 07-19-07, 02:09 PM	I'm tempted to agree with you here. While I understand the value of showing players the dangers they are facing (in order to create the right feeling of suspense and tension) I feel it's inappropriate to create encounters that deliberately frustrate players. More to your point, I don't think we could run away from those encounters. In one of them we were literally in the process of leaving the dungeon when we were ambushed. In the other, the mimic blocked our path out. Even worse, as a player I'd like to keep trying Undermountain as I think it could be fun, and I don't want to waste my DMs money. On the other hand, I think my character would be very skittish to go back down there.
Magnus029 07-19-07, 02:41 PM	Clicky here for the take of one of the designers on this adventure (http://seankreynolds.com/boardskr/viewtopic.php?t=2392)
Eater_Of_Souls 07-19-07, 03:12 PM	Clicky here for the take of one of the designers on this adventure (http://seankreynolds.com/boardskr/viewtopic.php?t=2392) What he says seems to be that first level of the dungeon is designed to be deadly as hell for those of 4th level and won't necessarily kill 1st level characters as soon as they enter provided those 1st level characters know what they are doing :P So if you guys are first timers ask your GM to allow you 4th level characters so you might live past the first level of dungeon without casualties. Also just because the adventure says it's meant for 1st to 10th level won't necessarily mean it, sure many monsters seem proper on paper. I had some humanoid monsters as opponents in my first ever campaign, they had only 12hp too bad they also did 2d4+3 dmg (big sword + huge strenght) and allmost squashed the party since my group had only one "proper" melee guy.