Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mandarbgrim 01-24-05, 12:56 PM	I have joined a new group and started DMing for some of them. <Published Eberron Adventures.> The DM increased the monster's ability scores drastically we were encountering<Because they were "Adventuring" monsters.> So the goblins had a STR 16 CON 14 DEX 16 and he was maxing out their hitpoints at first level and giving them another Warrior level. We only made it through 3 battles in the entire session. So..I have a couple questions.. How much CR should you add for increasing monster ability scores a great deal like this? <From being in parties with high scores I know it makes you a lot more powerful during the first few levels of the the game.> The whole group got 245 XP total. How important are Circumstance bonus's to CR? The first encounter me and another player were ambushed by 2 of these uber goblins and an NPC who ran away. We got EXP for a CR 1 encounter. Another problem is that he is attempting to force our characters into certain actions in order to complete adventures at all. Something along the lines that we have to draw from a Deck of Many cards to get benefits to be able to even beat the first dungeon. My character has no interest in gold or treasure. And especially taking a risk of dying..then he can't fulfill his other goals. It didn't end very well after he handed out 245 XP to everyone after the hardest battle against Kobolds, Goblins, and Skeletons that I have ever had. The fact that the Goblins had Ability scores as good as my character was extremely disheartening, as well. So I ended up arguing with him afterwards about the EXP awards. Which I regret because I don't like people arguing with me when I DM. I am relatively new to DMing but I know what he is doing is messed up. I figured out part of the problem in his calculating EXP. Someone told him the rule of thumb was to increase the CR by 1 every time you double the number of enemies. That still leaves the circumstance problem, and the ability modifier issue on the table. Oh..he says he is going straight by the book with EXP..so it isn't an issue of a Low EXP world. And he hasn't calculated Roleplaying XP..if he is going too. Besides the two questions I am just venting.
Vintar 01-24-05, 01:11 PM	Ummm. Exp should be given out per monster - not encounter. If there were two level 2 warrior goblins - that should be two CR 1 creatures. (with or without good stats) With good stats - you might argue an extra 100-200 exp between them. But a min. off 600 exp. between the two of them - unless he specifically told you that he was lowering the exp of everything.
friedmad 01-24-05, 02:33 PM	Ummm. Exp should be given out per monster - not encounter. If there were two level 2 warrior goblins - that should be two CR 1 creatures. Ummm, experience should be given out per encounter, not per monster.... Let's say you met the goblins individually. that would be two CR 1 encounters. If you meet 2 at the same time, logically its a tougher fight, and so the CR goes up, so the CR of a 2-goblin encounter is 2. If there are 3 goblins in one encounter, the CR is 3, etc. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20010320b
Board_Rider 01-24-05, 02:33 PM	Well, how many people are in your party? What classes are they? What are your ability scores? I ask because when I DM I will change things (like HP and Stats) on monsters to give a bit more challenge to the party if they are especially unique (i.e. 3 18's). I will not raise the CR based on this, just like I wouldn't lower XP for a Party who all rolled lucky enough to get scores between 14-18 on all of their attributes. As far as the whole Deck of Many Things.....well that's weird and you (or any other player) should talk to him about this as well as his obvious "railroading". Circumstance modifiers are ADHoc, I believe, and are based on the amount the DM feels like giving out for each particular instance. So, some give and some don't. Talk to him before the game and work it out. Oh and you shouldn't know the monsters ability scores...thats metagaming. 245XP really doesn't sound that much off...but I need a party size and the number/type of monsters faced in total to get a better figure.
Mandarbgrim 01-24-05, 04:04 PM	According to the rules..everytime you double the number of enemies the CR goes up by 2. Party: Human Warlock<Myself.> Minataur Bloodline Psionic Warrior<With some major min maxing going on.> Half-Elf Bard <Abilities are about average for a bard.> Drow Druid <Took away Drow abilities to make them ECL +0> Elf Ranger-Archer <New to 3.0 and 3.5.> Half Elven Swashbuckler <New to D&D.> All first level. Ability score points were a point system based on who rolled the highest. We used 43 points <I am new to points, and don't care for them already.> The only people that are min-maxing hardly at all are me and the Psionic Warrior..and I am trying to avoid it. I know the Goblins Dex because of an issue about initiative and us having the same roll.. I just assumed I was going first. No, you have to roll. What? My Dex is higher. No..the goblins all have 16 dex. Do what? I feel so unheroic. After the game he tells me he was giving them STR 16, CON 14, and DEX 16 And he was giving them an extra level of Warrior..or 1 level of warrior as he kept trying to say..and maxing out their HP for the first level. So.. 8 goblins HP 10+ AC 16+ Attack +4-? Long Sword 1d6+3 At the least this is the stats of each one from what I know..could have been better. Those should be atleast a CR 1 each for their stats.. Since that is the CR of a Goblin Warrior 2. 2 Goblins CR 3 4 Goblins CR 5 8 Goblins CR 7 We had some hirelings so I can understand halfing it.. but we lost the hirelings after this fight because it was too long, drawn out, and complicated. CR7- 3,600 XP Divided by 2= 1,800 XP Kobolds 8 Same deal with stats increase. I know that they all had atleast 10 HP CR 7 again but no Mercs so 3600 XP Skeletons 8 Same deal with stats from what I understand. CR 7 again 3600 9000 XP Divided among 6 people= 1500 It seems a lot but I don't see how I am going outside the rules at all. He claims it is a high powered campaign and not slow experience..then warns us not to go any deeper<Lower.> in the dungeon yet because we will get creamed..but only hands out 245 XP The battle me and the Druid had alone was being ambushed by two of those uber goblins above and another dude who ran away after shooting at me a couple times with poisoned bolts. That should be atleast CR 2 or 3, but he counted it as a CR 1 encounter. There is a lot of other gripes I could make, but they are things that are flavor and bad DMing stuff. Throwing harder monsters at us but then not even giving the experience the monsters are worse unbuffed seems past the point of bad DMing, though. If the party has to fight harder CR's than us by that much so be it, but at the least I would expect to get the appropriate XP.. Blah...yeah..other gripes.. Bard makes a 27 on a Forgery attempt to add in an item to our ticket when we had to check all our weapons at the front gate <Wow..took my walking staff and dagger. So dangerous.> He just flat out wouldn't let him get away with it period. A mage got to cast a non-existant spell to tell who forged it. And they must do this on thousands or milllons of people a day going through the absurdly huge cities gates..but the DC was higher than 27 on it. Oh yes..and the city is the size of New York City.. The comparison he gave us. Trying to complain about any of this didn't work well..because the DM is just as arguementative and bull headed as I am. I'll talk to him again before we play about it. He seems to be expecting everyone just to flat out perfectly conform to the story he already has going. I prefer characters to make up their own story personally..it makes DMing a lot easier when a player starts telling me some plot hooks that his character background has created. Or when their actions<Good or bad.> create other plot hooks.
Board_Rider 01-24-05, 04:23 PM	It seems you are confusing an encounters ECL and making it a CR based thing. Wrong. The Experience is wrong too. But you still should have received more. Here is how I do it. Goblin Warrior 2 (CR1) 300XP each * 8 = 2400/6(Party) = 400XP Each. Now if this encounter was against just the two of you then the XP is 1200 a piece...not 1800. Your DM shouldn't have put you in this situation....and IMO...gave you some ADHoc XP bonus. Same as I wrote above. Despite the Stats Boost the CR's stay the same. If the CR of each creature that you faced (Skeletons,Kobolds) was a CR 1 then use the formula above. If CR2 then substitute the 300 with 600 (I Believe, check the chart on pg.38(?) in your DMG) and still use the formula. Additionally Phrenzy has a link for a terrific Encounter Calculator so you PM him(her?). Or Google/Yahoo/MSN/Clusty for one. Good Luck.
Mandarbgrim 01-24-05, 06:57 PM	Alright.. I was confused. I see what you are saying now. But I still don't get where it is talking about doubling the number of enemies increases the CR by 2..and how that fits into the other method. I am also confused why increasing ability scores and maxing out a monsters HP for their first *Monster Level* wouldn't increase their CR. Example Goblin Warrior 1 HP 10 AC 16 Attack: +4 Long Sword<Small.> 1d6+3 CR: 1/3 That seems to be about the appropriate level for the boosted up goblins we were fighting. Goblin Warrior 2 HP 10 AC 14 Attack: +3 Long Sword<Small.> 1d6 CR: 1 This is should be the right stats for just adding another Warrior level to a Goblin..which makes him CR 1. He isn't as powerful as the first goblin. I understand adding abilities..I am used to the idea of a Goblin Archer having a 14 Dex and a goblin warrior a STR 12 and maybe Con 14. But increasing their STR by 5, CON by 2, and DEX by 3 and maxing out their HP seems like it should boost up their CR somewhat.
Mandarbgrim 01-24-05, 07:10 PM	No worries, I think I got it now. 8 Goblins Warrior 2 CR 1 300 X 8= 2400 Divided by 2= 1200 <Divided by 2 because of Merc's.> 8 Kobold Warrior 2 CR 1 300 X 8=2400 8 Skeletons CR 1 300 X8= 2400 4800+1200= 6000 Divided by 6= 1000 for each player That seems appropriate to what I was expecting. I was thinking the other figure I got was too high. I am not really concerned with the extra XP for the fight me and the Druid had as I am with him screwing over the entire parties XP. As another question.. I am running the Eberron Adventures.. How do I convert the EL they provide in the adventure over to party XP? I thought I just plugged it in, but I see I am wrong now. Do I just go ahead and figure it up from scratch, and ignore the EL they provide for each encounter. I ended up just winging it on the last one because the XP I figured up the start with was too high. I knew where they needed to be to run the next adventure, and went by that. Thanks for the clarification btw. :)
Athenna 01-24-05, 07:16 PM	The best way to convert over would be to figure out the creatures CR individually. Somewhere the monsters should have their CR mentioned, and then just follow the same system as you have figured out, using the chart on page 38 for the appropriate experience for each creature. Then again, i could be wrong, but this is how i've interpreted things.
Kessalin Talira 01-24-05, 08:43 PM	First of all, make sure you set him straight on the "rule of thumb" he's following: When you double the number of monsters of a given CR, increase the Encounter Level (EL) by 2. Two CR 5's are an EL 7, four are an EL 9. This doesn't really work for very low-CR monsters, though, like CR 1's. Take a CR 2 monster; two of them would be EL 4, four would EL 6, eight would be EL 8, sixteen would be EL 10, 32 would be EL 12, and 64 would be EL 14. However, when you look at the attack bonuses and saving throws of CR 2 monsters, they really don't have a chance against a 14th level party, even if there are 64 of them. That's when the DM needs to do something else. Take a look at Table 3-1 on page 49 of the DMG. With your 8 goblin War2's (CR 1 each), eight of them in a group would be somewhere around an EL 6. Because of the increase in ability scores, I might bump that up to an EL 7. Take that EL 7 encounter, and go back to the table on page 38. By that table, an EL 7 encounter would have netted the party 3600 xp, which works out to 600 xp per character. That's just the goblins. Add in 8 Kobold War2's for the same xp, and 8 skeletons for that amount again, and you end up with 1800 xp per character, which would have given the entire party almost a level and a half. You could also figure the Goblins as one EL 7, the Kobolds as one EL 7, and the Skeletons as a third EL 7, checking table 3-1 again, you'd see that three EL 7's together work out to an EL 10, which is 10,800 xp for the party. Divide that six ways and you again get 1800 xp per character. Just to clarify, CR and EL are almost the same, and are used interchangeably. EL is a measure of the CR of multiple creatures at once, and EL figures exactly the same as CR for xp purposes. So when you thought you just plugged it in, you were right. EL printed in the Eberron adventures you're running are used as CR, and XP is based on the EL. Just read over your second post again where you figured 1500 xp for the party based on those three encounters, and you're exactly right. Keep using that system and you'll be doing just fine. It does seem like a lot, but that's a LOT of monsters for a 1st level party, even if there are six of you. Keep in mind that a CR 1 monster, or an EL 1 encounter, is supposed to be a decent challenge for FOUR 1st level characters at the same time. You guys took on TWO DOZEN of them in groups of eight. The fact that you lived through it all is kind of surprising; any one of those groups should have killed you all.
Mandarbgrim 01-24-05, 09:05 PM	The first encounter we had 6 mercs..who were as strong as the party. So..I really understand how he could dock us massively for having them. The second and third battles we got through because we had gotten an advance for the adventure<Getting highered.> and pooled our resources to buy two partially full Wands of Cure Light Wounds. The DM seemed to think that is a resource that you should use 20% up of each encounter when I told him the possession of those are the only reason we survived. I don't know..the campaign is all kinds of screwed up. I figured up my next Eberron adventure with the CR's instead of EL's..it comes out with more EXP using EL's..but only like 10% more. I just really need to talk to him about the campaign..a lot of stuff..hopefully without argueing. The railroading, EXP problems, and the issue of monsters and NPC's having equal or higher ability scores than us really bothers me. Maybe I will just end up DMing alone and abandon his game. The guy has been playing longer than me and DM'd more than me, but it was all before 3rd edition, and the dungeon has a massive plotless dungeon crawl feal to it.
Nom 01-24-05, 09:57 PM	Well, it seems that everything is up the creek. In the MM, rank and file opponents are built on either 11,11,11,10,10,10 (non-humanoid) or 13,12,11,10,9,8 (humanoid), both of which are 15 points. Elite opponents (ie those with class levels) are built on the 15,14,13,12,10,8 standard array (25 points), and gain full hp on the first die. CRs assume that PCs are also built on 25 points (standard random roll is closer to 30 points, so there's a slight advantage to the PCs there). PCs are assumed to have approximately the treasure amounts on table 5-2; NPCs less (see chapter 4). A non-elite humanoid with NPC levels typically has CR = class levels - 1. An elite humanoid with PC levels typically has CR = class levels. Thus, the goblins in question are using super-elite ability scores and have two NPC class levels, which probably makes them around CR 2 (vs CR 1/3 for a regular goblin). However, the PCs have issues as well. A 43 point buy is about 1.75x standard (25 points), so the PCs are stupidly powerful. For +18 points, I'd award the PCs at least a +2 LA, which makes them ECL 3. If the game was played at the designed calibration level, perhaps there would be fewer problems? I'm a little surprised that Eberron is the setting chosen. Keith Baker and his team have gone to significant effort to make Eberron feel approachable for even low-level PCs, to consider what a semi-magical culture would really feel like, to keep the power levels down, and to support plot-driven gaming. It's not really the right setting for superpowered dungeon crawling.
Mandarbgrim 01-24-05, 10:33 PM	No, The game issue's are not in Eberron. I am DMing the Eberron adventures seperately from the game I am refering to. I am just having problems with the previous way I was doing XP, which seemed to work fine, now that I am trying to figure out how much XP we should have gotten normally. The game the issues are concerned with are a homebrewed campaign. The characters in the game I am DMing chose to use a 32 point buyout over rolling. It didn't seem too overpowered to me compared to some games that I have been in where people rolled. <On hindsight I wish I had only allowed 28 or 30 points. But I am new to this DMing and point buyout. I like rolling myself.> But yeah..the entire campaign I am a player in seems messed up. 43 point buyout. The Spellfire Feat combined with me being a warlock. Hiring porters for 4 silver a day with STR 17-18. The DM railroading. Boosting up minor monster ability scores drastically. The dungeon crawl feel to it. 7 hours of playing and only 245 XP. The DM not being that familiar with 3.5 rules. Monsters teleporting in to attack us constantly. <Atleast he isn't giving them surprise attacks.> I am thinking about all this way too much. I regret argueing with him afterwards. But after I sat down and looked at it the XP he gave us was even worse than I thought.