Explain Gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Explain Gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
at2bob
04-13-05, 12:01 AM I have been playing Dnd for a while but I just heard about the Gestalt, a way of playing multi-classed but not really. My meager understanding is that a character starts with 2 classes, say Fighter/Rogue, they get all the benefits of both classes but are still considered 1st level. Is this correct? Can anyone explain how these characters are created? advance?

Thanks in advance.
D_Martin
04-13-05, 12:29 AM I don't fully know, since I don't have the unearthed arcana. But, you advance as normal for a PC as far as EXP goes, but you have 2 classes. So a Ftr1/Wiz1 is a 1st levels PC and a Ftr2/Wiz2 is a 2nd level. You get the good saves of Fort and Will from the individual classes, the Ftr's d10 HD, the feats from both, the normal Wiz spells, and the better skill points. All of the good benefits of both classes combined together. Obviously for higher powered campaigns because it is unbalancing. All NPC's and BBEG's should have the same benefits otherwise it is overpowered. That is a such as I know about it and I could be wrong on some of it.
Leap
04-13-05, 04:48 AM It's multiclassing for the impatient ;)
cambric
04-13-05, 07:17 AM I don't fully know, since I don't have the unearthed arcana. But, you advance as normal for a PC as far as EXP goes, but you have 2 classes. So a Ftr1/Wiz1 is a 1st levels PC and a Ftr2/Wiz2 is a 2nd level. You get the good saves of Fort and Will from the individual classes, the Ftr's d10 HD, the feats from both, the normal Wiz spells, and the better skill points. All of the good benefits of both classes combined together. Obviously for higher powered campaigns because it is unbalancing. All NPC's and BBEG's should have the same benefits otherwise it is overpowered. That is a such as I know about it and I could be wrong on some of it.

It's 2 classes in one, but you level as one character. You take the best of everything from each class, as D_Martin explained. If you were the Fighter/Wizard, you would take the best saves for each class, the best hit die (fighter), you would get the spells, but you wouldn't get to cast spells in armor without having the chance of failure, the highter BAB, etc...

Is it overbalancing? Yes and no. I've played in a campaign with them and ran one, but as the book DOES mention, it's NOT for groups with more than 3 players. We only had 3 total, including a dm, so we played Gestalt and had a great time...now that we have 4 players + the dm, it's back to "normal".

One thing you have to remember though, even though you have 2 classes, you still only get the best attack bonus of one...so in the above example, from 1st through 5th, you only get one attack! At 6th, the fighter goes 6/1 and then you get your 2. That does "balance" out things, for instance: you meet 4 orcs...in a "normal" party of 4, (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue...for example) you would get four attacks. Now, with a gestalt of fighter/wizard, cleric/rogue (as an example)...you only get two attacks!!

On "paper", the gestalt character "sounds" over-balancing...and it is IF more than 3 people use it AND the enemies do NOT have the same opprotunity. What I did to keep it even as possible was the BBEG's and possibly their main henchmen were gestalt, but the "regulars" were not...because, as pointed out, if you only have 2 players, and the module calls for 4 enemies, the players still only have 2 attacks!! And if the 4 enemies ALL had gestalt classes, well that's REALLY unbalancing.

Hope that helps...and if you have more questions, you might want to check out the Gestalt Boards! :)

Cam
at2bob
04-19-05, 12:31 PM Where is the Gestalt board? Also, from the things I have seen do you have to multiclass with a core class and something else, most examples I've seen were sorcerer/noble or something like that. Can it be 2 core classes like fighter/rogue?
Worguron
04-19-05, 02:31 PM It can be any two classes as long as their requirements don't clash (Barbarian and Monk are a combo that would be insanely cool, but not legal).

If you are going for a flavorful character, you can take things like Sorceror/Noble or Ranger/Scout, but many people go for the power route when doing a gestalt character and make an uber-gish (Fighter/Wizard) or some other extremely powerful combination (Cleric/Druid, Psion/Wizard, Wilder/Sorceror, or (Cleric or Druid)/PsyWar can get insane).

One thing to keep in mind about Gestalting is that while you can take a prestige class (only one at a time mind you), you normally aren't allowed to take prestige classes that effectively combine two other classes (Mystic Theurge, Cerebremancer, etc.).
at2bob
05-02-05, 12:48 PM Thanks for the help. I am thinking of starting a new campaign using this but wanted to get as much detail as possible.
Draco Strang
05-02-05, 12:51 PM If you have access to Unearthed Arcana, it's got all the info.
at2bob
05-03-05, 05:17 PM i'm going to buy the book tonight, thanks
Flushmaster
05-04-05, 02:49 AM Unearthed Arcana also has quite a few ither goodies. The book is over 200 pages (224, including the index) and the gestalt rules only take up about two of those pages. The rest is other variant rules. How many? The first line of the introduction says it quite well:

Warning: Get ready to drink from the fire hose.

The book is a true treasure trove of variations on how to play the game. Variant races, variant classes, different skill systems, weapon proficiencies, variant familiars, and more than a few extra things that defy conventional categories (sanity as a statistic is one of the more interesting ones). In short, buttloads of variant rules.

Not that you can or should use all of them in a single campaign. I doubt that I'll ever use at least a third of them, if not half. But I can usually find something applicable in there for just about any campaign I write and most characters I make. Not that I use it all, but I can if I want to. Or something in there makes me think of something different. It's about options, lots of options. Can you tell I like it?

Keep in mind that, with gestalt characters, you get all class feeatures of both classes. A fighter/wizard gestalt character would also have the bonus feats of a fighter. If both classes have identical class features (except for bonus feats where you can choose different ones, of course) then you only gain them once, as soon as either class gives you that feature.

Unless you do something like experience penalties for gestalt characters (or bonuses for non gestalts) or allow templates or level adjustment races for non gestalts or some other major balancing effect, you should never mix normal and gestalt characters. As pointed out before, challenges ratings and other party level dependent factors should be adjusted to make them appropriate for the increased abilities of gestalt characters.

I think of gestalts mainly as having more options than standard characters rather than being "overpowered," but it's important to remember that those options create more opportunities, and those opportunities can be exploited by a good player to take on tougher challenges. Style over brute force. Or maybe a combination of both, what I like to call "brute finesse." I like it.
Ut-Napishtim
05-04-05, 03:42 AM Is it overbalancing? Yes and no. I've played in a campaign with them and ran one, but as the book DOES mention, it's NOT for groups with more than 3 players. We only had 3 total, including a dm, so we played Gestalt and had a great time...now that we have 4 players + the dm, it's back to "normal".

Careful there cambric, I got a tongue lashing a couple weeks back for saying the same thing. You know, just because someone wants to play a Fiendish Changling Half-Dragon Gestalted Druid/Wizard/Mystic-Theurge/Archmage in a group with six players doesn't mean their "play style" is any better or worse than anyone else's. While personally I wouldn't have a problem using gestalt characters in a group of two or three folks, telling someone it's NOT for groups with more than three players - regardless of what the book itself might say, isn't PC because some munchk... er, other posters might be offended by it. Although I agree, for a balanced game it should really be reserved for small groups - not that a balanced game is superior or anything in any way to whatever other type of game folks might like. With the additional caveat that each person has their own idea of what is "balanced" and nobody's opinion on it is anymore valid than anyone else's.
:rolleyes::bored:
erendor the True
05-04-05, 04:16 AM It can be any two classes as long as their requirements don't clash (Barbarian and Monk are a combo that would be insanely cool, but not legal).

Heh. I can just imagine that...
Org: "ORG SMASH WITH GREAT DICIPLINE!!!"
Flushmaster
05-04-05, 04:48 AM Personally, I don't see a problem with gestalt characters in larger groups, and I hate munchkins. The campaign would have to be balanced towards that and NPCs should be gestalts as well (plus the obvious necessity of higher level monsters), but it's definitely possible to balance. It would be quite a bit more complex with a larger group, and I'd argue it to be unnecessarily so, but it could still be balanced. It would also take away from the group dynamic of a larger party, IMHO, because you'd likely have at least two characters (if not three) capable of filling any given role. Being "the" rogue, "the" wizard, or so forth would be impossible. Larger groups (6+ PCs) usually have something like that anyways, but this would be universal.

I'm seriously considering using gestalts in an upcoming campaign (mainly because there will only be three players, including myself while I DM), but I wouldn't personally allow them in a group of more than 4 PCs (and 4 would be pushing it).
cambric
05-04-05, 07:58 AM Careful there cambric, I got a tongue lashing a couple weeks back for saying the same thing. You know, just because someone wants to play a Fiendish Changling Half-Dragon Gestalted Druid/Wizard/Mystic-Theurge/Archmage in a group with six players doesn't mean their "play style" is any better or worse than anyone else's. While personally I wouldn't have a problem using gestalt characters in a group of two or three folks, telling someone it's NOT for groups with more than three players - regardless of what the book itself might say, isn't PC because some munchk... er, other posters might be offended by it. Although I agree, for a balanced game it should really be reserved for small groups - not that a balanced game is superior or anything in any way to whatever other type of game folks might like. With the additional caveat that each person has their own idea of what is "balanced" and nobody's opinion on it is anymore valid than anyone else's.
:rolleyes::bored:

How interesting...I got a tongue lashing before for saying that "if you WANTED, I'm sure it COULD work"...boy, those anti-gestalt people came out of the wood work!!

So, to be "correct": It can be done...anything can be done...do I suggest it...no! But that's not saying it can't be done, because we all know that it can be done.

*has lawyer look over the above statement*

Ok, I think it's correct enough...not saying it is but it should be. :P

The book does not recommend it...but we all know how people feel the testing done and the authors knowledge isn't really correct...for someone, maybe everyone, makes it work better. :cool:

Cam
Draco Strang
05-04-05, 09:29 AM i'm going to buy the book tonight, thanks
That's the attitude. Need two pages? Go out and pay 30 bucks for them.

Yup....you aren't a mindless WOTC drone. But don't feel bad, because so am I. I just picked up some books last night. Yea...I've got enough money for beer and gas now, and that's about it. 90 bucks down the tubes. I could have had a date in style, paid a chunk of car insurance, gone to Kings Island for the day, done a little shopping, bought some music, socked it away in the bank.

Nope.....Sandstorm, Faiths and Pantheons, and two Eberron modules now grace my shelves, and moths flutter in my pocket.

The things I do for my gaming.......
Tytalus
05-04-05, 11:36 AM [...]
You know, just because someone wants to play a Fiendish Changling Half-Dragon Gestalted Druid/Wizard/Mystic-Theurge/Archmage in a group with six players doesn't mean their "play style" is any better or worse than anyone else's.
[...]

Unless playing an illegal build is a sign of bad style (Mystic Theurge is not a valid choice for Gestalt).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
at2bob 04-13-05, 12:01 AM	I have been playing Dnd for a while but I just heard about the Gestalt, a way of playing multi-classed but not really. My meager understanding is that a character starts with 2 classes, say Fighter/Rogue, they get all the benefits of both classes but are still considered 1st level. Is this correct? Can anyone explain how these characters are created? advance? Thanks in advance.
D_Martin 04-13-05, 12:29 AM	I don't fully know, since I don't have the unearthed arcana. But, you advance as normal for a PC as far as EXP goes, but you have 2 classes. So a Ftr1/Wiz1 is a 1st levels PC and a Ftr2/Wiz2 is a 2nd level. You get the good saves of Fort and Will from the individual classes, the Ftr's d10 HD, the feats from both, the normal Wiz spells, and the better skill points. All of the good benefits of both classes combined together. Obviously for higher powered campaigns because it is unbalancing. All NPC's and BBEG's should have the same benefits otherwise it is overpowered. That is a such as I know about it and I could be wrong on some of it.
Leap 04-13-05, 04:48 AM	It's multiclassing for the impatient ;)
cambric 04-13-05, 07:17 AM	I don't fully know, since I don't have the unearthed arcana. But, you advance as normal for a PC as far as EXP goes, but you have 2 classes. So a Ftr1/Wiz1 is a 1st levels PC and a Ftr2/Wiz2 is a 2nd level. You get the good saves of Fort and Will from the individual classes, the Ftr's d10 HD, the feats from both, the normal Wiz spells, and the better skill points. All of the good benefits of both classes combined together. Obviously for higher powered campaigns because it is unbalancing. All NPC's and BBEG's should have the same benefits otherwise it is overpowered. That is a such as I know about it and I could be wrong on some of it. It's 2 classes in one, but you level as one character. You take the best of everything from each class, as D_Martin explained. If you were the Fighter/Wizard, you would take the best saves for each class, the best hit die (fighter), you would get the spells, but you wouldn't get to cast spells in armor without having the chance of failure, the highter BAB, etc... Is it overbalancing? Yes and no. I've played in a campaign with them and ran one, but as the book DOES mention, it's NOT for groups with more than 3 players. We only had 3 total, including a dm, so we played Gestalt and had a great time...now that we have 4 players + the dm, it's back to "normal". One thing you have to remember though, even though you have 2 classes, you still only get the best attack bonus of one...so in the above example, from 1st through 5th, you only get one attack! At 6th, the fighter goes 6/1 and then you get your 2. That does "balance" out things, for instance: you meet 4 orcs...in a "normal" party of 4, (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue...for example) you would get four attacks. Now, with a gestalt of fighter/wizard, cleric/rogue (as an example)...you only get two attacks!! On "paper", the gestalt character "sounds" over-balancing...and it is IF more than 3 people use it AND the enemies do NOT have the same opprotunity. What I did to keep it even as possible was the BBEG's and possibly their main henchmen were gestalt, but the "regulars" were not...because, as pointed out, if you only have 2 players, and the module calls for 4 enemies, the players still only have 2 attacks!! And if the 4 enemies ALL had gestalt classes, well that's REALLY unbalancing. Hope that helps...and if you have more questions, you might want to check out the Gestalt Boards! :) Cam
at2bob 04-19-05, 12:31 PM	Where is the Gestalt board? Also, from the things I have seen do you have to multiclass with a core class and something else, most examples I've seen were sorcerer/noble or something like that. Can it be 2 core classes like fighter/rogue?
Worguron 04-19-05, 02:31 PM	It can be any two classes as long as their requirements don't clash (Barbarian and Monk are a combo that would be insanely cool, but not legal). If you are going for a flavorful character, you can take things like Sorceror/Noble or Ranger/Scout, but many people go for the power route when doing a gestalt character and make an uber-gish (Fighter/Wizard) or some other extremely powerful combination (Cleric/Druid, Psion/Wizard, Wilder/Sorceror, or (Cleric or Druid)/PsyWar can get insane). One thing to keep in mind about Gestalting is that while you can take a prestige class (only one at a time mind you), you normally aren't allowed to take prestige classes that effectively combine two other classes (Mystic Theurge, Cerebremancer, etc.).
at2bob 05-02-05, 12:48 PM	Thanks for the help. I am thinking of starting a new campaign using this but wanted to get as much detail as possible.
Draco Strang 05-02-05, 12:51 PM	If you have access to Unearthed Arcana, it's got all the info.
at2bob 05-03-05, 05:17 PM	i'm going to buy the book tonight, thanks
Flushmaster 05-04-05, 02:49 AM	Unearthed Arcana also has quite a few ither goodies. The book is over 200 pages (224, including the index) and the gestalt rules only take up about two of those pages. The rest is other variant rules. How many? The first line of the introduction says it quite well: Warning: Get ready to drink from the fire hose. The book is a true treasure trove of variations on how to play the game. Variant races, variant classes, different skill systems, weapon proficiencies, variant familiars, and more than a few extra things that defy conventional categories (sanity as a statistic is one of the more interesting ones). In short, buttloads of variant rules. Not that you can or should use all of them in a single campaign. I doubt that I'll ever use at least a third of them, if not half. But I can usually find something applicable in there for just about any campaign I write and most characters I make. Not that I use it all, but I can if I want to. Or something in there makes me think of something different. It's about options, lots of options. Can you tell I like it? Keep in mind that, with gestalt characters, you get all class feeatures of both classes. A fighter/wizard gestalt character would also have the bonus feats of a fighter. If both classes have identical class features (except for bonus feats where you can choose different ones, of course) then you only gain them once, as soon as either class gives you that feature. Unless you do something like experience penalties for gestalt characters (or bonuses for non gestalts) or allow templates or level adjustment races for non gestalts or some other major balancing effect, you should never mix normal and gestalt characters. As pointed out before, challenges ratings and other party level dependent factors should be adjusted to make them appropriate for the increased abilities of gestalt characters. I think of gestalts mainly as having more options than standard characters rather than being "overpowered," but it's important to remember that those options create more opportunities, and those opportunities can be exploited by a good player to take on tougher challenges. Style over brute force. Or maybe a combination of both, what I like to call "brute finesse." I like it.
Ut-Napishtim 05-04-05, 03:42 AM	Is it overbalancing? Yes and no. I've played in a campaign with them and ran one, but as the book DOES mention, it's NOT for groups with more than 3 players. We only had 3 total, including a dm, so we played Gestalt and had a great time...now that we have 4 players + the dm, it's back to "normal". Careful there cambric, I got a tongue lashing a couple weeks back for saying the same thing. You know, just because someone wants to play a Fiendish Changling Half-Dragon Gestalted Druid/Wizard/Mystic-Theurge/Archmage in a group with six players doesn't mean their "play style" is any better or worse than anyone else's. While personally I wouldn't have a problem using gestalt characters in a group of two or three folks, telling someone it's NOT for groups with more than three players - regardless of what the book itself might say, isn't PC because some munchk... er, other posters might be offended by it. Although I agree, for a balanced game it should really be reserved for small groups - not that a balanced game is superior or anything in any way to whatever other type of game folks might like. With the additional caveat that each person has their own idea of what is "balanced" and nobody's opinion on it is anymore valid than anyone else's. :rolleyes::bored:
erendor the True 05-04-05, 04:16 AM	It can be any two classes as long as their requirements don't clash (Barbarian and Monk are a combo that would be insanely cool, but not legal). Heh. I can just imagine that... Org: "ORG SMASH WITH GREAT DICIPLINE!!!"
Flushmaster 05-04-05, 04:48 AM	Personally, I don't see a problem with gestalt characters in larger groups, and I hate munchkins. The campaign would have to be balanced towards that and NPCs should be gestalts as well (plus the obvious necessity of higher level monsters), but it's definitely possible to balance. It would be quite a bit more complex with a larger group, and I'd argue it to be unnecessarily so, but it could still be balanced. It would also take away from the group dynamic of a larger party, IMHO, because you'd likely have at least two characters (if not three) capable of filling any given role. Being "the" rogue, "the" wizard, or so forth would be impossible. Larger groups (6+ PCs) usually have something like that anyways, but this would be universal. I'm seriously considering using gestalts in an upcoming campaign (mainly because there will only be three players, including myself while I DM), but I wouldn't personally allow them in a group of more than 4 PCs (and 4 would be pushing it).
cambric 05-04-05, 07:58 AM	Careful there cambric, I got a tongue lashing a couple weeks back for saying the same thing. You know, just because someone wants to play a Fiendish Changling Half-Dragon Gestalted Druid/Wizard/Mystic-Theurge/Archmage in a group with six players doesn't mean their "play style" is any better or worse than anyone else's. While personally I wouldn't have a problem using gestalt characters in a group of two or three folks, telling someone it's NOT for groups with more than three players - regardless of what the book itself might say, isn't PC because some munchk... er, other posters might be offended by it. Although I agree, for a balanced game it should really be reserved for small groups - not that a balanced game is superior or anything in any way to whatever other type of game folks might like. With the additional caveat that each person has their own idea of what is "balanced" and nobody's opinion on it is anymore valid than anyone else's. :rolleyes::bored: How interesting...I got a tongue lashing before for saying that "if you WANTED, I'm sure it COULD work"...boy, those anti-gestalt people came out of the wood work!! So, to be "correct": It can be done...anything can be done...do I suggest it...no! But that's not saying it can't be done, because we all know that it can be done. has lawyer look over the above statement Ok, I think it's correct enough...not saying it is but it should be. :P The book does not recommend it...but we all know how people feel the testing done and the authors knowledge isn't really correct...for someone, maybe everyone, makes it work better. :cool: Cam
Draco Strang 05-04-05, 09:29 AM	i'm going to buy the book tonight, thanks That's the attitude. Need two pages? Go out and pay 30 bucks for them. Yup....you aren't a mindless WOTC drone. But don't feel bad, because so am I. I just picked up some books last night. Yea...I've got enough money for beer and gas now, and that's about it. 90 bucks down the tubes. I could have had a date in style, paid a chunk of car insurance, gone to Kings Island for the day, done a little shopping, bought some music, socked it away in the bank. Nope.....Sandstorm, Faiths and Pantheons, and two Eberron modules now grace my shelves, and moths flutter in my pocket. The things I do for my gaming.......
Tytalus 05-04-05, 11:36 AM	[...] You know, just because someone wants to play a Fiendish Changling Half-Dragon Gestalted Druid/Wizard/Mystic-Theurge/Archmage in a group with six players doesn't mean their "play style" is any better or worse than anyone else's. [...] Unless playing an illegal build is a sign of bad style (Mystic Theurge is not a valid choice for Gestalt).