Post/Author/DateTime	Post
olala88 06-14-07, 11:35 AM	There is an extended role in the Libris Mortis book on p. 8. Tha main point of that is that Undead need to feed. My dm has taken this role inuse. This makes allmost all the Undead I can create diet dependet. I cant create ghouls since they are diet dependet. This was the way it started. But every single Undead I can create is dependet on killing every day or take a high will save or suffer 1d6 wis damage. If you only use the rules from the Monster Manual I have a good 10 Undead I can create. But now I only got Skeleton/zombie(they got no int so they are restricted in what they can do), mummy(slow and dumb) and at last the morgh. This damn rule makes me get only one inteligent Undead I can use. Any good Idee to what I can do to get my dm to not use this rule? The rule is funny for Taikea(half vampire/monk). But for me it is wracking the fun out of it.
wonlee76 06-14-07, 11:46 AM	Tell your DM that the rule is wrecking your fun? I doubt this will change his mind since there are lots of rules (optional or RAW) that could wreck the fun for players. Dying is not fun for players, lets ignore the rules on dying. Undead needing to "feed" seems somewhat strange but I can understand certain types of undead needing to. Afterall, they're undead and most descriptions of undead creatures with intelligence is that they hate living creatures. See if you can convince your DM to allow some kind of ring of sustenance equivalent for undead so you can curtail their feeding habits. That would probably be the best solution for you to work around the rule.
Kouk 06-14-07, 12:37 PM	It may be he is actually trying to put limits on your ability to raise undead armies.
olala88 06-14-07, 01:15 PM	Yes that cude be. But maybe to mutch... I mean one thing is to make limitation the other one secure that I cant have a Undead from create undead, greater in more than one day before they must kill. This wudent have been a problem if my goal was to kill everything I come over. But it isnt. The only way I can opphold my little Army is to go on and slaughter every village I come over.
Kouk 06-14-07, 01:24 PM	Have you tried starting a cattle farm? (Non-horse) Livestock is pretty cheap.
olala88 06-14-07, 01:31 PM	Have you tried starting a cattle farm? That cude be an idee... But it still complicates my position while traveling around and it it kinda feels dumb like ****.
IceFractal 06-14-07, 01:40 PM	Bag of Tricks, maybe? That should be good for sustaining at least a couple of minions. Also, once you're able to, look into incorporeal undead - it seems like those probably wouldn't need to eat. Alternately, if you get some of the Corpsecrafter feats and pick the right things to turn undead, you can make some lethal minions just with Animate Dead. Still mindless, but deadly in combat.
olala88 06-14-07, 02:00 PM	Bag of Tricks, maybe? That should be good for sustaining at least a couple of minions. Also, once you're able to, look into incorporeal undead - it seems like those probably wouldn't need to eat. Alternately, if you get some of the Corpsecrafter feats and pick the right things to turn undead, you can make some lethal minions just with Animate Dead. Still mindless, but deadly in combat. Thanks Bag of Thricks is actualla a good idee. When it comes to incoporal undead the rule get worse. The rule arent only made for physical hunger but also mentaly. Spectre wants to kill. This is actually more difficult than for a ghoul. If it dont get to kill every day it have to make a dc 25 will or lose 1d6 wis. When all wis is lost it gets crazy and attack random.
maharai23 06-14-07, 05:54 PM	Yes that cude be. But maybe to mutch... I mean one thing is to make limitation the other one secure that I cant have a Undead from create undead, greater in more than one day before they must kill. This wudent have been a problem if my goal was to kill everything I come over. But it isnt. The only way I can opphold my little Army is to go on and slaughter every village I come over. And people wonder why necromancers terrorize villages... Fish gotta swim, zombie's gotta eat... BRAINS.
maharai23 06-14-07, 05:55 PM	Thanks Bag of Thricks is actualla a good idee. When it comes to incoporal undead the rule get worse. The rule arent only made for physical hunger but also mentaly. Spectre wants to kill. This is actually more difficult than for a ghoul. If it dont get to kill every day it have to make a dc 25 will or lose 1d6 wis. When all wis is lost it gets crazy and attack random. Perhaps you should suggest that if he's going to use that rule, he use it as written, rather than beefing it up to the point of making undead unviable?
Dragonborn 06-14-07, 08:23 PM	Perhaps you should suggest that if he's going to use that rule, he use it as written, rather than beefing it up to the point of making undead unviable? I'm pretty sure that is the rule as written.
Twippie_Diggs 06-14-07, 11:44 PM	if i remember correctly most things get at least 3 days in between meals, before their first will save of about 17, though this is for the diet dependent undead, if you fail the will save you have another 3 days before you have to make your next save.
BaelinWhale 06-15-07, 08:16 AM	I assume you're playing a non-evil undead here. Most undead do need to feed, and it does add realism to the torment you're supposed to feel (Others than Casper, does anyone know of any happy undead?). Anyhow, can't you just hunt bunnies and other little critters to slake your hunger? There are plenty of ways around this, though, and many of them can add to the fun. For example, I played a ghost with the ability drain and used either a bag of tricks or the mount spell, pull out a bunny (or whatever the bag produced) and ***** slap it to maintain my sanity.
JellyPooga 06-15-07, 08:56 AM	If the problem is specifically Ghouls/Ghasts, then there should be no problem...they're diet dependant on Flesh...just like the Druids Tiger Animal Companion. A Cleric casting Create Food and Drink should provide sufficient sustenance for you, or you can simply have rations (there is no stipulation for it to be fresh or living flesh). If it's a more generic problem, there are not all that many Undead that are actually Diet Dependant and the ones that are actually playable are even fewer. Those ones that have an Inescapable Craving can generally sate their craving through normal 'adventure' because mostly they are sated by their attack (e.g. the Cinderspawns craving for Charisma). Do note that most of the Inescapable Cravings and/or Diet Dependancies do not require that the victim be killed. A Vampire, for example, needs to drink blood, but could just as easily drink a small amount of the volunteered blood of his adventuring companion as draining all of the blood from the body of a virgin locked in a tower, to slake his thirst. The point behind the ruling is indeed to put a limiting factor (another one) on playing Undead, but I've always thought it made for better role-playing opportunities. For instance, a Ghoul who's been living off of stale rations for a couple of weeks may well, upon getting back to a living population, go a bit nuts and try to sneak into someones house and eat them. As a Ghoul PC, I may well do this voluntarily (as a player that is, the character may or may not be happy about it) rather than through any kind of Will save, Wisdom loss thing...simply because it's the sort of thing that a Ghoul might do, even if he has some kind of moral objection to it (it's part of his nature to eat flesh, the fresher the better...he will only be able to deny this for so long, just as a human needs to breathe or eat. He might be able to put it off for a long time, years even given his status as an Undead creature, but it will get to him eventually, unless he's extremely strong willed). The important thing to remember is that playing an Undead that has an Inescapable Craving or Diet Dependancy is no different from playing a Dwarf with Stonecunning or an Elf with -2 Con. It's part of what that creature is. Sure there are ways to circumnavigate it (generally), but if you try to do that too much, maybe you shouldn't be playing that race/character. Use your DM's enforcement of these rules to improve your game rather than see it as him/her trying to 'nerf' your character. If you play good-aligned Undead with Diet Dependancies or Inescapable Cravings, make it a point that you try to avoid killing or unduly harming others, if you play an evil-aligned Undead, make it a point that you enjoy the fine taste of living flesh or needlessly killing the victim of your hunger. Like I say, there are ways around this 'problem' as you call it, but the best one is not to treat it as a problem at all.
Dherki 06-15-07, 11:25 AM	As I understand this, he's not playing an undead, but a necromancer focused on creating undead. And those undead either have to misbehave or he has to keep digging up corpses every few days. If this rule was not in effect when you created the character, maybe you could talk your DM out of using it. Or if he won't, maybe you should ask for a chance to recreate your character? And lastly, unless you really want to be a good guy, digging up some more corpses and moving around with a wagon full of them would surely keep those pesky bandits away :hides:
Another_Poet 06-15-07, 12:55 PM	Another solution is to only keep a few really powerful undead, rather than a small army of low-HD undead. Less mouths to feed and all.
feartheinvinceblehamster 06-15-07, 01:44 PM	Necropolitan?
olala88 06-15-07, 03:41 PM	The thing is that for my self it is not a problem. I am in fact a necropolian. But It dont limitits animate dead spell, but create undead, and create greater ud. Theese spell is allready(especially the first) quite under powerd. With the right equipment, domains and so on a 5 lvl cleric can make a cr 8 undead. This ****ing role makes animate dead almost equal to create undead. And yeah it limits the option for your UD. Why have UD? Becouse they are unquestonable loyal, they dont need to eat, sleep, drink You dont need them to get any kind of money to fight for you(exept the cost to create them. Yoc can make an realy good army of them. I can make a toon of ud with this rule but it is limited to 4 types. Exept maybe some few high CR that I may upkeep a few. But this rule is bothering me becouse its a extra rule. It isnt a core(heck its limited allready) It takes me one hour to create one UD from the create spell. I allready feel that the spell is limited by the gp cost. If I some day finds out to create an army I wil have enough problem hiding them and so on. I still gotta create an kick ass army but not one that got as much creativity to it becouse of new limitations.
olala88 06-15-07, 03:44 PM	what I cude do is to limit the rule to diet dependet and just make my dm drop the whole inescapable craving thing. Ghouls gotta eat. But an undead gotta kill every day? Or I can lessen the amount of killing that has to get done.
Twippie_Diggs 06-15-07, 05:45 PM	well one thing i am curiouse about, does your dm have LM or do you have it? cause if you dont have it you should ask to see it, cause it sounds like he is needlessly ramping up effects of feedings.
olala88 06-15-07, 06:21 PM	I have it but once upon a time I let her borrow it to make better UD. Her boyfriend became a half vampire so he started to use the "must feed rules". He is kinda of a half boss. He have played the game for 11 years. So he controls some of the rule in the game. But the dm allways get the last word if she desire so. I dont think they have seen the amount it makes to crating UD. Its a cool rule if you are a vampire for example. But when you got a whole bunch of npc... But I dont think I can make them accept to only use the need to eat part and not the need to kill ****.
olala88 06-15-07, 06:26 PM	Btw can I use the bag of tricks to create bear zombie or whatever I can throw out of the bag? 10 corpses out of the bag/ a week?
Forgember 06-16-07, 01:58 PM	That sounds like a great rule to me, creating Undead is suposed to be an evil act and if they don't go around randomly killing inocents I don't see why its evil. Start kidnapping children/halflings so your undead can have some rations handy. Get into the evil of it all and have some fun with it.
calronmoonflower 06-16-07, 03:38 PM	If you have the Book of Vile Darkness try the bone and skeleton creatures. They can be made with the appropriate Create Undead spells are have no listed dependency in Libris Mortis. If you want to be really mean take the Corpse Crafter feats and make the max number of 1 HD skeletons that you can and have them work as little suicide bombers and meet shields.
olala88 06-17-07, 09:35 AM	If you have the Book of Vile Darkness try the bone and skeleton creatures. They can be made with the appropriate Create Undead spells are have no listed dependency in Libris Mortis. If you want to be really mean take the Corpse Crafter feats and make the max number of 1 HD skeletons that you can and have them work as little suicide bombers and meet shields. Damn the bone creature is good:D I cude create a toon of this and thereafter only have a few wights and things and make sure they eat and creates spawns in combat. And it seems like its possible to create a very specialized army with them. Suicide bombers seems like a good idee. But I unfortunly dont got rom for the feats until 18 level.
olala88 06-17-07, 09:41 AM	That sounds like a great rule to me, creating Undead is suposed to be an evil act and if they don't go around randomly killing inocents I don't see why its evil. Start kidnapping children/halflings so your undead can have some rations handy. Get into the evil of it all and have some fun with it. Well its evil becouse of many reasons. They are purley built on negative energy. You disrespect the dead when animate them. But as many evil creature as my characther for example. Being evil is to do evil act and act completly selfish and so on. My characther isnt evil becouse he like to torture childeren, but becouse he wude torture children if that is needed from him to survive, earn money, hold a cover and so on. I belive that undead are very evil but that dosent make them adicted to killing. Sure they cude want to kill people every day becouse they are evil. But its stupid to make all undead kill adicted.
esteigs 06-21-07, 05:11 PM	Get a wand of summon monster, and whenever you get hungry munch on your summoned minions. also, for thing that feed on flesh make some zombies and just let them eat the zombies
Hapycamper 06-21-07, 05:35 PM	Get a wand of summon monster, and whenever you get hungry munch on your summoned minions. also, for thing that feed on flesh make some zombies and just let them eat the zombies I don't think their corpses stick around when they die... do the summon animal ones?
Purkake 06-21-07, 06:10 PM	I don't think their corpses stick around when they die... do the summon animal ones? Well then I guess you'll have to eat them while their still alive... Good thing they won't feel a thing because of all the summon spell thing.
esteigs 06-21-07, 06:53 PM	lol
Maekrix_Waere 06-21-07, 08:05 PM	Well its evil becouse of many reasons. Yes, its an Evil act, even though not all Undead are Evil. They are purley built on negative energy. They are animated by negative energy, not made of it. You disrespect the dead when animate them. Not if you ask them first.
Saurus33 06-22-07, 01:52 AM	If the Dm's going to enforce eating for the undead they should be enforcing eating for the living too. Tell them that, and then keep on stopping for food.