Faerun Books Only? No Core? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Faerun Books Only? No Core? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lomiir
02-12-04, 06:57 PM My DM recently decided to switch from his madeup world and to switch over to Faerun. The thing is he wants to solely use Faerun material to really get in depth with the world.

I agree that if we are going to do Faerun that players should act like they are from Faerun. IE no clashes of gods, storyline, or whatever that's not in Faerun. *However* We disagree in the usage of prestige classes. In my opinion there should be no reason not to use prestige classes from splatbooks/DMG as long as they do not conflict with the reaility of Faerun.

If for instance, if a player wanted to be a Shifter... If Faerun doesn't have Shifters there is no possible way for the character to be one. We agree on this issue.

However, what if a player were to play as a fighter with a whip. I see no reason why a player could not take the Lasher prestige class. It in no way goes against the reality of Faerun and is simply an extention of "Hey I fight with a whip and I'm good at it"

Does anyone have an opinion on this issue? I just dont get how using classes from the basic D&D(non world specific) books would in any way taint the realism of Faerun.

Thanks.
Capn Charlie
02-12-04, 07:13 PM Sigh,

Prestige classes were meant to be an extension of actual prestige. You don't take levels in asassin because you excel at killing, but because you join an evil CAMPAIGN specific guild that teaches you their dark secrets. They(PrCs) exist to draw you into a game world, not into the player optimization forums.

That said, most classes are easily able to be incorporated into the realms. It(Faerun) was purposefully left with blanks in it for DM made components to fit in.

However on these boards all I can anticipate you getting responses to is to the tune of "FR blows". Thus have the realms haters been, thus shall they always be.
primemover003
02-12-04, 07:19 PM For the most part I'd say most PrC's should be OK in the Realms...

However I follow the line of reasoning that PrC's are DM tools. If the PrC fits in the campaign I'd allow it. The Lasher for example I'd see fitting in the culture of the Western heartlands (caravanners) or Amn and the Dragon coast (slavers). It all really depends on where it'll fit right. If you're adventuring in the Sea of Fallen Stars around the Pirate isles and Immurk's Hold I'd nix the Deepwood sniper.

The realms are not completely devoid of PrC's from non-realms sources. Obviously all of the DMG PrC's are included. But of course the DM is in charge.
Lomiir
02-12-04, 07:34 PM Of course the DM is in charge, he just want to keep it pure and I completely agree. But if the player was already playing an elf bowman fighter there's really no reason not to let them take a class which focuses in on what they were already doing to begin with(deepwood sniper) Elemental savant is yet another class. There isn't anythign conflicting(at least that I know of) about a character wanting to focus on one element.

While PrCs are tools to add to the story, I also see them as a way for a character to focus in on whatever style they might already be pursueing. This isn't necessarily powergaming, but it would get a little boring to play 20 levels of a fighter(archer) only to have gained most all archery feats by 10th level.
Eldren
02-12-04, 07:51 PM The idea of the Forgotten Realms as a campaign setting for Dungeons & Dragons is that the game is still Dungeons & Dragons. In fact, it'll even say on the Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook (the big $40 one) that the use of the book still requires the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide and the Monster Manual. All Dungeons & Dragons games should, in theory, require the use of the Core Rulebooks, because that's where the actual rules for the Dungeons & Dragons game are found. Forgotten Realms isn't a separate role playing game, it's a setting for the Dungeons & Dragons game. The rules in that book, when they conflict with the Core Rulebooks, apparently supercede said Core Rulebooks, but in instances where they don't, you're supposed to use the Core Rulebooks.

Prestige classes, even the ones in the Dungeon Master's Guide, are in their entirety optiona, and I wish more players would realize that. They don't have to be in the game at all, and the pure plethora of them that have come about (every single freakin' product WotC has released for 3rd Edition has had at least one new prestige class in it as long as it wasn't a module, and several of those have had prestige classes in them as well!) insures that they are no longer "prestigious" (the very nature of something being prestigious necessitates its lack of commonality). They're now nothing more than 3rd Edition's answer to the 2nd Edition concept of "character kits", which were found in the various classbooks (The Complete Fighter's Handbook, The Complete Cleric's Handbook, The Complete Psionics Handbook, The Complete Paladin's Handbook, etc.).

Some Dungeon Masters don't want to allow a given prestige class in their game because they perceive it's either more powerful than they want to deal with (things like the Dragon Disciple in 3.0, or even the Archmage in 3.0), because it doesn't fit with their campaign setting (it makes no sense to have a Red Wizard of Thay if you aren't playing in the Forgotten Realms), or because they just don't think it should be available to their particular PCs (things like the Pale Master and the Blackguard, both of which require regular contact with, and encouragement of, evil activities).

When I was putting my current campaign together, I initially thought about doing a class-by-class winnowing out of the prestige classes I flat out wasn't going to allow, but I didn't want to so immediately limit my players' options for their character plotting (choosing which feats you're going to take at what level, etc.). Instead I just told them, "Never assume that a given prestige class is going to be available; if you want something, let me know, and I'll let you know about it then. If I approve of it and it has role playing requirements (such as finding a member of the group to teach you or something like that), then let me know ahead of time so I have time to work it into the campaign so you're able to go into the class when you first become eligible."

This, to me, seems a much more sensible approach.

So if your Dungeon Master is disallowing all prestige classes that aren't in a Forgotten Realms book, he might have a reason for that, and you should ask him what those reasons are, rather than first coming to the boards in an attempt to build popular support for your planned dissension. Sometimes DMs make completely asinine calls that require players to come here and get popular support for a position they personally know is right, but that their DM is unwilling to acknowledge, but the disallowance of a given prestige class (or set of prestige classes) doesn't quite cut it.

Besides, if he's letting you use only Forgotten Realms material, that means you get to use the Forgotten Realms Archmage, instead of the depowered 3.5 Core Archmage. :devil:
Rian Lightblade
02-12-04, 08:18 PM My statements echo what most people have already said. Almost all of the PrCs from the class book can be tranfered to FR. I the game I play in our DM allowed us to freely pick any PrC we wanted from the DMG, Class Books, and any FR PrC. But remember each DM is different. I mean as Eldren stated, PrC are optional. In fact, I know some DMs that don't allow any PrC in their games. Also when I DM FR I only allow DMG and FR PrCs I allow player to picks some feats (ones that I give the ok on) from the class books but no PrCs.

The fact that your DM doesn't allow class books PrCs is his/hers right as a DM. You only choices are. One; figure out a way to work the PrC into the your DM FR setting and covince you DM to allow it. Two; Pick one of the Realms PrCs (some of them really kick a$$) or Three; Tell the DM you like to design your own PrC, one that's similar to the one you wanted to take. Many DMs love the parcipatory nature of the last option. It often makes them feel that you, as player, are taking an interest in helping their setting grow. This works well with "World Builder" DMs
Lomiir
02-12-04, 08:21 PM "So if your Dungeon Master is disallowing all prestige classes that aren't in a Forgotten Realms book, he might have a reason for that, and you should ask him what those reasons are, rather than first coming to the boards in an attempt to build popular support for your planned dissension."

I already talked to him about it and told him my opinion. I just wanted to get more opinions on the matter. i'm probably going to link him to this thread anyway so it's not like I'm trying to dissent or anything.

Just want to make sure there will be no loss of Faerun realism.
Lomiir
02-12-04, 08:24 PM @Rian Lightblade

I just found it kind of odd is all. In our last campaign we could use any PrC from the splatbooks. In general he's a pretty loose DM. I just think his concern for keeping it pure may not be needed as long as the class can be kept within bounds.
Malben
02-12-04, 09:02 PM Take a look in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting book -- find the entry for Artemis Entreri. Note his level spread, which includes quite a lot of levels of assassin.

Thus, at least one DMG prestige class is outright used as part of the FRCS's material. I could probably find three or four other examples without even looking hard, but the point is illustrated nicely just by this example: the FRCS is designed on the assumption that the DM will use most of what is in the DMG, up to and including the prestige classes offered there.

I suggest pointing this out to the DM -- if he's allowing PrCs at all, I can't see why he'd disallow the DMG PrCs. I certainly can see why he'd disallow the splatbooks, though, or why he'd disallow evil-aligned PrCs, or something like that. In running my own FR campaign, I've tended to keep everything that's evil-aligned or is not in a Core book or the FRCS under the purveiance of "Ask the DM first." If he's disallowing the DMG prestige classes, I can't really see that he's concerned about them for power/balance reasons, since the ones that the 3.5 DMG shares with the 3.0 DMG are really among the most balanced ones around, and even most of the 3.5 prestige classes are pretty balanced.

But a lot of the stuff in splatbooks is Greyhawk-specific to the point that it's an outright hassle to convert it for the Realms, or is extremely powerful, or is so weak as to be a problem. It's very uneven, and I'm cautious about that stuff as a DM. Likewise, I'm pretty comfortable with the balance of all the FRCS prestige classes, but I don't feel so comfortable with some of the other stuff associated with the Realms (the Incantatrix springs instantly to my mind here).
Ithilorien
02-13-04, 12:08 AM I see no reason to disallow non-FR prestige classes unless they are specifically geared to another world (Knight of the Rose, Mage of the Arcane Order, et cetera).
the_heart
02-13-04, 06:00 AM possible solutions: for organisational PrC's ask your DM if he'll consider a PrC if you'll ground it in the realms. i'e if you want to be an assassin, you'll outline an assassin's guild, where it's based, it's political/social outlook, it's goals etc. if it's an occupational PrC, such as the lasher, you give examples of where it's common, an existing NPC fully fleshed out, or maybe a smal group that favour that particular class.

if it's a specialist PrC that just follows on, such as the dragon disciple or elemental savant, ask your DM if there is something you can do to make it 'more faerunian'. such as to activate an elemental savant's abilities you need to make sacrifices at a specific location. or for DD maybe you need contact with a dracolich, or an item that can only be supplied by the Cult of Dragons.

don't just ask, ask how? this way you may get access to the class you want, and your DM may well obtain a cool plothook.
Heron_Marked_Blade
02-13-04, 07:32 AM Incidentally, the Forgotten Realms have numerous already-established institutions that core PrCs would fit in:

[Organization (Location): PrC]

-Night Masks (Westgate): Assassin PrC
-Knights of Silver, Knights of Myth Drannor (Silverymoon): Eldritch Knight PrC
-any high-level cleric (church organization): Heirophant PrC
-any Dwarven realm (Mithral Hall, Mirabar): Dwarven Defender PrC
-anyone who qualifies (personal study): Dragon Disciple PrC
-any high-level mage, Brotherhood of the Arcane (personal study, Luskan): Archmage PrC
-anyone who qualifies (Waterdeep, Westgate, Calimport): Duelist PrC
-any elven-blooded PC (Evereska, Evermeet): Arcane Archer PrC
-Black Network (Zhentarim, evil church organization): Blackguard PrC
-anyone who qualifies (personal study): Horizon Walker PrC
-anyone who qualifies (church of Oghma, Silverymoon, Waterdeep): Loremaster PrC
-anyone who qualifies (Church of Mystra, Azuth): Mystic Theurge PrC
-Shadowmasters of Teflamm, Shadow Thieves (Teflamm, Amn): Shadow Dancer PrC
-anyone who qualifies (personal study): Thaumaturgist PrC

These aren't the only organizations or locations where you'll find these PrCs, incidentally. There are any number of other PrCs specific to Faerun (PrCs from Underdark, the Incantatrix/Incantatar, Guild Wizard of Waterdeep, Red Wizard, Runecaster, Shadow Adept, etc., etc.) that you won't find in the Core rules.
Rian Lightblade
02-13-04, 07:40 PM Originally posted by Lomiir
@Rian Lightblade

I just found it kind of odd is all. In our last campaign we could use any PrC from the splatbooks. In general he's a pretty loose DM. I just think his concern for keeping it pure may not be needed as long as the class can be kept within bounds.

That's a good arguement and it's a valid one as well. And even though I have said that IMC (FR) I don't allow Non-core or Non-FR PrC I do allow the PCs the make an attempt to convice me otherwise. Honestly, it has worked in the past. IMO he might been doing it just so he doesn't have to look in another book to find out what your PC is capable of. With just FR PrCs everything is right there in front of him, since he'll probably have the book out already to run the game. I'll admit that this has played a role (once or twice) in why I have not allowed the Class Books in some games. Cause then you gota haul them all along to the game just to be sure you have you bases covered. And you have to refer to them during every planning session to see what the PCs can dish out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lomiir 02-12-04, 06:57 PM	My DM recently decided to switch from his madeup world and to switch over to Faerun. The thing is he wants to solely use Faerun material to really get in depth with the world. I agree that if we are going to do Faerun that players should act like they are from Faerun. IE no clashes of gods, storyline, or whatever that's not in Faerun. However We disagree in the usage of prestige classes. In my opinion there should be no reason not to use prestige classes from splatbooks/DMG as long as they do not conflict with the reaility of Faerun. If for instance, if a player wanted to be a Shifter... If Faerun doesn't have Shifters there is no possible way for the character to be one. We agree on this issue. However, what if a player were to play as a fighter with a whip. I see no reason why a player could not take the Lasher prestige class. It in no way goes against the reality of Faerun and is simply an extention of "Hey I fight with a whip and I'm good at it" Does anyone have an opinion on this issue? I just dont get how using classes from the basic D&D(non world specific) books would in any way taint the realism of Faerun. Thanks.
Capn Charlie 02-12-04, 07:13 PM	Sigh, Prestige classes were meant to be an extension of actual prestige. You don't take levels in asassin because you excel at killing, but because you join an evil CAMPAIGN specific guild that teaches you their dark secrets. They(PrCs) exist to draw you into a game world, not into the player optimization forums. That said, most classes are easily able to be incorporated into the realms. It(Faerun) was purposefully left with blanks in it for DM made components to fit in. However on these boards all I can anticipate you getting responses to is to the tune of "FR blows". Thus have the realms haters been, thus shall they always be.
primemover003 02-12-04, 07:19 PM	For the most part I'd say most PrC's should be OK in the Realms... However I follow the line of reasoning that PrC's are DM tools. If the PrC fits in the campaign I'd allow it. The Lasher for example I'd see fitting in the culture of the Western heartlands (caravanners) or Amn and the Dragon coast (slavers). It all really depends on where it'll fit right. If you're adventuring in the Sea of Fallen Stars around the Pirate isles and Immurk's Hold I'd nix the Deepwood sniper. The realms are not completely devoid of PrC's from non-realms sources. Obviously all of the DMG PrC's are included. But of course the DM is in charge.
Lomiir 02-12-04, 07:34 PM	Of course the DM is in charge, he just want to keep it pure and I completely agree. But if the player was already playing an elf bowman fighter there's really no reason not to let them take a class which focuses in on what they were already doing to begin with(deepwood sniper) Elemental savant is yet another class. There isn't anythign conflicting(at least that I know of) about a character wanting to focus on one element. While PrCs are tools to add to the story, I also see them as a way for a character to focus in on whatever style they might already be pursueing. This isn't necessarily powergaming, but it would get a little boring to play 20 levels of a fighter(archer) only to have gained most all archery feats by 10th level.
Eldren 02-12-04, 07:51 PM	The idea of the Forgotten Realms as a campaign setting for Dungeons & Dragons is that the game is still Dungeons & Dragons. In fact, it'll even say on the Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook (the big $40 one) that the use of the book still requires the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide and the Monster Manual. All Dungeons & Dragons games should, in theory, require the use of the Core Rulebooks, because that's where the actual rules for the Dungeons & Dragons game are found. Forgotten Realms isn't a separate role playing game, it's a setting for the Dungeons & Dragons game. The rules in that book, when they conflict with the Core Rulebooks, apparently supercede said Core Rulebooks, but in instances where they don't, you're supposed to use the Core Rulebooks. Prestige classes, even the ones in the Dungeon Master's Guide, are in their entirety optiona, and I wish more players would realize that. They don't have to be in the game at all, and the pure plethora of them that have come about (every single freakin' product WotC has released for 3rd Edition has had at least one new prestige class in it as long as it wasn't a module, and several of those have had prestige classes in them as well!) insures that they are no longer "prestigious" (the very nature of something being prestigious necessitates its lack of commonality). They're now nothing more than 3rd Edition's answer to the 2nd Edition concept of "character kits", which were found in the various classbooks (The Complete Fighter's Handbook, The Complete Cleric's Handbook, The Complete Psionics Handbook, The Complete Paladin's Handbook, etc.). Some Dungeon Masters don't want to allow a given prestige class in their game because they perceive it's either more powerful than they want to deal with (things like the Dragon Disciple in 3.0, or even the Archmage in 3.0), because it doesn't fit with their campaign setting (it makes no sense to have a Red Wizard of Thay if you aren't playing in the Forgotten Realms), or because they just don't think it should be available to their particular PCs (things like the Pale Master and the Blackguard, both of which require regular contact with, and encouragement of, evil activities). When I was putting my current campaign together, I initially thought about doing a class-by-class winnowing out of the prestige classes I flat out wasn't going to allow, but I didn't want to so immediately limit my players' options for their character plotting (choosing which feats you're going to take at what level, etc.). Instead I just told them, "Never assume that a given prestige class is going to be available; if you want something, let me know, and I'll let you know about it then. If I approve of it and it has role playing requirements (such as finding a member of the group to teach you or something like that), then let me know ahead of time so I have time to work it into the campaign so you're able to go into the class when you first become eligible." This, to me, seems a much more sensible approach. So if your Dungeon Master is disallowing all prestige classes that aren't in a Forgotten Realms book, he might have a reason for that, and you should ask him what those reasons are, rather than first coming to the boards in an attempt to build popular support for your planned dissension. Sometimes DMs make completely asinine calls that require players to come here and get popular support for a position they personally know is right, but that their DM is unwilling to acknowledge, but the disallowance of a given prestige class (or set of prestige classes) doesn't quite cut it. Besides, if he's letting you use only Forgotten Realms material, that means you get to use the Forgotten Realms Archmage, instead of the depowered 3.5 Core Archmage. :devil:
Rian Lightblade 02-12-04, 08:18 PM	My statements echo what most people have already said. Almost all of the PrCs from the class book can be tranfered to FR. I the game I play in our DM allowed us to freely pick any PrC we wanted from the DMG, Class Books, and any FR PrC. But remember each DM is different. I mean as Eldren stated, PrC are optional. In fact, I know some DMs that don't allow any PrC in their games. Also when I DM FR I only allow DMG and FR PrCs I allow player to picks some feats (ones that I give the ok on) from the class books but no PrCs. The fact that your DM doesn't allow class books PrCs is his/hers right as a DM. You only choices are. One; figure out a way to work the PrC into the your DM FR setting and covince you DM to allow it. Two; Pick one of the Realms PrCs (some of them really kick a$$) or Three; Tell the DM you like to design your own PrC, one that's similar to the one you wanted to take. Many DMs love the parcipatory nature of the last option. It often makes them feel that you, as player, are taking an interest in helping their setting grow. This works well with "World Builder" DMs
Lomiir 02-12-04, 08:21 PM	"So if your Dungeon Master is disallowing all prestige classes that aren't in a Forgotten Realms book, he might have a reason for that, and you should ask him what those reasons are, rather than first coming to the boards in an attempt to build popular support for your planned dissension." I already talked to him about it and told him my opinion. I just wanted to get more opinions on the matter. i'm probably going to link him to this thread anyway so it's not like I'm trying to dissent or anything. Just want to make sure there will be no loss of Faerun realism.
Lomiir 02-12-04, 08:24 PM	@Rian Lightblade I just found it kind of odd is all. In our last campaign we could use any PrC from the splatbooks. In general he's a pretty loose DM. I just think his concern for keeping it pure may not be needed as long as the class can be kept within bounds.
Malben 02-12-04, 09:02 PM	Take a look in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting book -- find the entry for Artemis Entreri. Note his level spread, which includes quite a lot of levels of assassin. Thus, at least one DMG prestige class is outright used as part of the FRCS's material. I could probably find three or four other examples without even looking hard, but the point is illustrated nicely just by this example: the FRCS is designed on the assumption that the DM will use most of what is in the DMG, up to and including the prestige classes offered there. I suggest pointing this out to the DM -- if he's allowing PrCs at all, I can't see why he'd disallow the DMG PrCs. I certainly can see why he'd disallow the splatbooks, though, or why he'd disallow evil-aligned PrCs, or something like that. In running my own FR campaign, I've tended to keep everything that's evil-aligned or is not in a Core book or the FRCS under the purveiance of "Ask the DM first." If he's disallowing the DMG prestige classes, I can't really see that he's concerned about them for power/balance reasons, since the ones that the 3.5 DMG shares with the 3.0 DMG are really among the most balanced ones around, and even most of the 3.5 prestige classes are pretty balanced. But a lot of the stuff in splatbooks is Greyhawk-specific to the point that it's an outright hassle to convert it for the Realms, or is extremely powerful, or is so weak as to be a problem. It's very uneven, and I'm cautious about that stuff as a DM. Likewise, I'm pretty comfortable with the balance of all the FRCS prestige classes, but I don't feel so comfortable with some of the other stuff associated with the Realms (the Incantatrix springs instantly to my mind here).
Ithilorien 02-13-04, 12:08 AM	I see no reason to disallow non-FR prestige classes unless they are specifically geared to another world (Knight of the Rose, Mage of the Arcane Order, et cetera).
the_heart 02-13-04, 06:00 AM	possible solutions: for organisational PrC's ask your DM if he'll consider a PrC if you'll ground it in the realms. i'e if you want to be an assassin, you'll outline an assassin's guild, where it's based, it's political/social outlook, it's goals etc. if it's an occupational PrC, such as the lasher, you give examples of where it's common, an existing NPC fully fleshed out, or maybe a smal group that favour that particular class. if it's a specialist PrC that just follows on, such as the dragon disciple or elemental savant, ask your DM if there is something you can do to make it 'more faerunian'. such as to activate an elemental savant's abilities you need to make sacrifices at a specific location. or for DD maybe you need contact with a dracolich, or an item that can only be supplied by the Cult of Dragons. don't just ask, ask how? this way you may get access to the class you want, and your DM may well obtain a cool plothook.
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-13-04, 07:32 AM	Incidentally, the Forgotten Realms have numerous already-established institutions that core PrCs would fit in: [Organization (Location): PrC] -Night Masks (Westgate): Assassin PrC -Knights of Silver, Knights of Myth Drannor (Silverymoon): Eldritch Knight PrC -any high-level cleric (church organization): Heirophant PrC -any Dwarven realm (Mithral Hall, Mirabar): Dwarven Defender PrC -anyone who qualifies (personal study): Dragon Disciple PrC -any high-level mage, Brotherhood of the Arcane (personal study, Luskan): Archmage PrC -anyone who qualifies (Waterdeep, Westgate, Calimport): Duelist PrC -any elven-blooded PC (Evereska, Evermeet): Arcane Archer PrC -Black Network (Zhentarim, evil church organization): Blackguard PrC -anyone who qualifies (personal study): Horizon Walker PrC -anyone who qualifies (church of Oghma, Silverymoon, Waterdeep): Loremaster PrC -anyone who qualifies (Church of Mystra, Azuth): Mystic Theurge PrC -Shadowmasters of Teflamm, Shadow Thieves (Teflamm, Amn): Shadow Dancer PrC -anyone who qualifies (personal study): Thaumaturgist PrC These aren't the only organizations or locations where you'll find these PrCs, incidentally. There are any number of other PrCs specific to Faerun (PrCs from Underdark, the Incantatrix/Incantatar, Guild Wizard of Waterdeep, Red Wizard, Runecaster, Shadow Adept, etc., etc.) that you won't find in the Core rules.
Rian Lightblade 02-13-04, 07:40 PM	Originally posted by Lomiir @Rian Lightblade I just found it kind of odd is all. In our last campaign we could use any PrC from the splatbooks. In general he's a pretty loose DM. I just think his concern for keeping it pure may not be needed as long as the class can be kept within bounds. That's a good arguement and it's a valid one as well. And even though I have said that IMC (FR) I don't allow Non-core or Non-FR PrC I do allow the PCs the make an attempt to convice me otherwise. Honestly, it has worked in the past. IMO he might been doing it just so he doesn't have to look in another book to find out what your PC is capable of. With just FR PrCs everything is right there in front of him, since he'll probably have the book out already to run the game. I'll admit that this has played a role (once or twice) in why I have not allowed the Class Books in some games. Cause then you gota haul them all along to the game just to be sure you have you bases covered. And you have to refer to them during every planning session to see what the PCs can dish out.