Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mrcleaver 06-22-05, 07:35 PM	I'm currently involved in a campaign with 4 other players and an fairly experienced DM. This campaign is rather action packed, and needless to say the PC's are all pretty maxed out in terms of stats (32 point buy, average HP gain every level, full HD at first level). Most recently, our group of level 5 adventurers were told by the Adventurer's Guild to investigate a long lost templed buried underneath a large hill, great treasures were promised and of course, treasure is something no adventurer would refuse. I won't bore you with the details of the dungeon itself, most of the fights ended quickly thanks to our powerful characters. Everything went fine until we reached the final room of the dungeon. The entrance of this room was designed such that a narrow corridor makes an abrupt turn straight into the room (that is, it is essentially impossible to stay outside of the room and fire into it), and the room itself is large while the entryway is small. We were supposed to retrieve a rather important tome placed upon a broken pedestal at one end of the room, and we had heard that the tome is protected by some guardian. We ventured inside ready to take on whatever it is that will attempt to stop us, but even our fully decked out party was completely unprepared for what came next. A crazed dwarf, armed with some magical potion that enlarged him to gargantuan size (literally, as in Gargantuan size category), rushed our party (well, 20ft at a time at least). The mad dwarf would never allow us to retrieve the tome unless we defeated him, and so we got to work. Imagine our surprise when this crazy bastard unleashed a flurry of 5 attacks on our barbarian, killing him in a single round. The fight got ugly after that, and we lost a member every round for 2 more rounds (from straight melee attacks). The two remaining survivors escaped, cursing as we went. After the encounter, the DM calmly told us that the encounter was perfectly balanced and of the appropriate difficulty. He also admitted that there were no tricks to the encounter, and that even if we weren't such powergamers, the encounter would have been built in the same way (it wasn't revenge). Is my DM crazy? Edit: Oh, I should add that we dealt about 60 damage to it before our party was more than halfway to a TPK, and the dwarf was still in full ass kicking mode.
DeathMagus 06-22-05, 08:00 PM	A crazed dwarf, armed with some magical potion that enlarged him to gargantuan size (literally, as in Gargantuan size category), rushed our party (well, 20ft at a time at least). The mad dwarf would never allow us to retrieve the tome unless we defeated him, and so we got to work. In theory, the dwarf's main source of power comes from that potion. Does that potion enhance his saving throws? I sense a "sleep" or "dispel" spell might have been useful...
Always-Late 06-22-05, 08:00 PM	Your DM is bull******** you. If the tank goes down in a round, it's overpowered. It could probably flurry of blows the whole party and destroy it in one round. I don't see how my level 5 party could destroy that without full buffing beforehand and a large series of 20's, as well as a large series of 1 from the crazy dwarf.
DeathMagus 06-22-05, 08:01 PM	Condensed - see above.
Zeteg 06-22-05, 09:30 PM	Couldn't you have ran out and waited for the potion to expire? How many potions does he have? =x
Cymraegmorgan 06-22-05, 09:57 PM	Your party was not prepared. Magic is best countered by magic, not by some brave but reckless charge by fighters. Zeteg makes a fine point, why did you not back off until the potion wore off? Or, as DeathMagus pointed out, use a spell to nullify the effects of the potion? Not every problem can be solved by the sword or the fireball. Sometimes the subtler magics are the easiest way to victory. A valuable lesson to be learned.
Rathje 06-23-05, 01:21 AM	Not every problem can be solved by the sword or the fireball. Sometimes the subtler magics are the easiest way to victory. A valuable lesson to be learned. I agree, but... He also admitted that there were no tricks to the encounter... I could be mistaken, but I interpreted this as the DM saying "You should have been able to take it on with brute force alone." I may be wrong, though.
Cymraegmorgan 06-23-05, 01:33 AM	No tricks to the encounter does not translate into "You should have been able to take it on with brute force alone." Using Sleep or Dispel Magic is not a "trick", but rather standard tactics.
Invarus 06-23-05, 01:54 AM	Well, nobody had Deep Slumber memorized, but we pretty much figure that even if we did, the fact that he shrugged off 60 points of damage means that he wouldn't fall within the HD limit. We -also- figured that any spell which increased somebody's size by 3 categories would probably be a little bit beyond our ability to dispel. We thought about this stuff after getting brutally murdered by the encounter, as we were a little too surprised to think straight, but that doesn't change the fact that our reasoning sounds pretty solid. I mean, seriously here folks. You can't just say "Oh, well if you'd used tactic xyz, you would have won". That flat out doesn't work. Heck, sometimes brute force -is- the only way to handle things. In this case, it sure didn't work either. As for backing off, the group took a break after that little fiasco, to cool down. We abstracted a few days passing and "met some new people at the tavern" (the dead characters recreated), and headed back. Our wizard bought Clairaudience/Clairvoyance for his spellbook, so that this time we could check out the room before we head in. The dwarf is still giant. We just decided to stop for the day at that point. Hell, for all we know, he's got some crazy "Guardian of the Lost Temple" powers that make him especially resistant to magic, or do other crazy things. He -is- apparently some guardian, so I'd expect him to be supernatural.
Brave Sir Robin 06-23-05, 02:19 AM	This seems a little broken to me. any NPC who can take down your damage hog in one round dose not = a balanced encounter. Iv had DMs tell me befor "well theres only one of them" thats a loud of pig doo :yuck: . this sounds like the DMs excuse to make a ultra powerful NPC. also how did a dwarf get to that size with a potion?!?! most of the enlargment bonuses dont stak they say things like "one size above normal". :confused:
Invarus 06-23-05, 03:35 AM	God only knows. The potion is probably a spell he just made up.
DeathMagus 06-23-05, 09:25 AM	God only knows. The potion is probably a spell he just made up. What level are you? If you commonly utilize hack-n-slash for all your encounters, perhaps the DM is trying to teach you to use things like Invisibility. Just walk by that Dwarf!
celtredleg 06-23-05, 10:38 AM	You didnt say if you used all the favorite buffs first. Sometimes that makes all the difference. I know I do this sometimes with a high powered party. They just run over everything, so I pump up the encounter a bit, but still expect them to win after a stiff fight. Instead, one will be hardly a speed bump, and the next is a TPK. And thats not what I wanted. Try using some of the contact higher powers spells, there is probably a big weakness in this thing, you just have to find it.
jnrhayz 06-23-05, 10:54 AM	The DM just might have rolled really well in killing the Barbarian also. You said he rolled 5 attacks, but it is possible a couple of those were confirming criticals. As a DM, I know how that goes. Just last week the party wizard couldn't get a spell to work. I was rolling 19s and 20s on the saves. There may be another way around like the other posters mentioned, use invisibility, Have one or two or three people distract the guy (full defensive) while the rogue or ranger or sneaky guy try to steal the tome, Magical damage spells. You could try using rope to trip him and then fighting him while he is prone...
Ut-Napishtim 06-23-05, 11:18 AM	We -also- figured that any spell which increased somebody's size by 3 categories would probably be a little bit beyond our ability to dispel. We thought about this stuff after getting brutally murdered by the encounter, as we were a little too surprised to think straight, but that doesn't change the fact that our reasoning sounds pretty solid. I agree, I know there are improved versions of Enlarge Person and Reduce Person that are 3rd level spells and make the jump two size categories. One that did three, as in your example, would be a 5th level spell IMHO - making it unable to be crafted into a potion. Since the guy was still super-sized when you checked back in though I'm guessing it's some sort of natural ability and the potion was simply a Cat's Grace or something to throw you guys off. That being said though, I can see how this could be well countered by a simple Reduce Person spell. If the entire party was reduced this large gigantic fellow would have a heck of a time hitting them, and you guys practically couldn't miss him unless you rolled a natural one. With smaller characters some folks could probably hide and shoot from the entrance, or if you wanted the party Rogue would have some good mods for sneaking in and taking the book unnoticed. As a DM I've found that sometimes a party will waltz through an encounter two above their CR, but then turn around and lose characters to one that's one below it. Most DM's, myself included, don't try and throw unwinnable encounters at the PC's, but sometimes it's hard to tell. With your character generation methods and such, a CR 7 could be considered a reasonable encounter for your party. That being said, something does still smell fishy about the whole thing, and the creature having such a 'home turf' advantage like that should probably add one to the CR as well that perhaps your DM overlooked.
solbergb 06-23-05, 01:18 PM	There are plenty of CR appropriate encounters that mash the fighter. Some of the grapplemonsters, for example...advanced assassin vines and mimics are especially bad. really large constructs with grapple or very high hardness can be very tough for very low CR. Hydras will just shred fighters if the party just stands there and takes it. When the fighter drops to a flurry, you never ever let the bad guy get another full attack. Move and suck up an AOO if you have to, but don't just stand there. Really brutal melee encounters in confined spaces usually rate a CR+1 bump, because some of the monsters are really intended to be fought with hit and run tactics and that is figured into their CR (assassin vines are immobile, constructs are really really stupid and hydras aren't very fast, even though they can charge and full attack) When fighting a buffed enemy, running away and letting his buffs run out is a decent tactic. I'm betting the dwarf had that ability naturally and the potion was something like haste.
Invarus 06-23-05, 01:49 PM	I should probably address one thing first. The tome wasn't readily visible when we entered the room. I'm betting the dwarf needs to be dead before we can get it, however that's going to work. As for there being a weakness, I'm pretty sure that's what the DM meant by saying "No tricks": that there is no simple way to dismantle this guy. Hit and run tactics are sort of problematic in that there are very few places we can move within the room that he can't take a five foot step to and attack us. He has something like 15 feet of reach at that size. To address the whole CR issue, this is apparently the fight we'd be getting into if we'd all created a bunch of half-elf bards with 8 charisma, so I sure hope it's not a CR 7. There's still the whole issue that we hit this guy for 60 points of damage, and he kept on trucking. This probably also means that he has some pretty good saving throws.
Illion the Red 06-23-05, 02:00 PM	There's still the whole issue that we hit this guy for 60 points of damage, and he kept on trucking. This probably also means that he has some pretty good saving throws. That just means that he has more than 60 hit points. It could be 61 for all you know. Not very helpful, but felt I had to point it out.
Invarus 06-23-05, 02:04 PM	That'd be nice, but as I said, the DM told us that it wasn't looking too bad after those 60 points of damage. We pretty much trust him not to outright lie to us and tell us that something looks in a lot better condition than it really is.
Mikal 06-23-05, 02:17 PM	I kind of want to know how you guys were being considered 'powergamers' by the dm. 32 point buy isnt over powered by any means. Most official PB layouts aren't. Can you give us a rundown of what everyone was playing?
mrcleaver 06-23-05, 02:19 PM	I'd just like to note that the dwarf definitely struck 5 times, it wasn't 3 attack rolls and 2 confirmed critical rolls. On the other hand, it's possible that it rolled very well to drop our barbarian like that in one round. Once again, our DM specifically informed us that there weren't any 'trick tactics'. Or, at the very least, he did not intend for us to defeat the encounter using any tricks, the encounter is considered to be dealt with as is. Furthermore, he was adamant that the encounter was not revenge for our overpowered characters, as Invarus had said, this encounter would have been exactly the same even if we all all played with 25 point buy and put points into charisma with our barbarians.
Invarus 06-23-05, 02:39 PM	One Half-Orc Fighter 4/Barbarian 1 One Wood Elf Fighter 4/Barbarian 1 One Gray Elf Wizard 5 One Elf Rogue 5
TelinArtho 06-23-05, 03:19 PM	Well, you guys are a little light on the cleric side of magic, but here I don't think that's going to hurt too bad as long as you have some potions on everyone. The wizard should definitely have Slow memorized (if he doesn't have it - get it) to either a) counter haste or b) reduce it to partial actions. Sleet Storm would be another viable option if the book was in plain sight - wait for the giant to fall prone and have the rogue run and grab it. Hold Person might work if it is just a normal dwarf affected by the spell - though if he has a template or something - it could be not worth trying. For 2nd level spells, I'm pretty fond of Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Blinding or Ghoul Touch wouldn't be horrible except they are fortitude saves (but you never know if this things got a good fortitude save or not). Invisibility on the rogue to get a first sneak attack in and then letting him flank thereafter (to sneak attack even more) are both reasonable options. For 1st level - Ray of Enfeeblement seems like a good choice (especially if you are playing 3.5; 3.0 - less so). The summon monster spells are all viable - just to give you more targets and to help flank it. If the AC doesn't seem too high - power attacking while flanking can really be a big difference. Don't forget your buffs (whatever you can get) - Bull's Strength, Blur, Displacement, Mirror Image, Aid, Magic Weapon, Haste, etc. In nonmagical equipment, a tanglefoot bag might be an effective weapon too. One last thought, is there a possibility your opponent had DR - and therefore you did much less damage than you actually think you did. Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon might be something to look into. As to the DM's comments that the fight was winnable - it doesn't matter. Right now, this is what you've got - so work around it. Reduce its number of attacks, reduce its strength, etc.
Invarus 06-23-05, 03:23 PM	While their have been a number of suggestions thrown around, I've noticed that not a lot of people have actually answered the simple question that's supposed to be the focus of the discussion: Is our DM crazy? Is this encounter balanced?
Illion the Red 06-23-05, 03:33 PM	While their have been a number of suggestions thrown around, I've noticed that not a lot of people have actually answered the simple question that's supposed to be the focus of the discussion: Is our DM crazy? Aren't we all crazy? Well, I don't think your DM is crazy. He may have something up his sleeve that he doesn't want to reveal just yet. It'd be pretty funny if it wound up being a goblin with a hell of an illusion cast on it. DMs lie all the time, ya know. It could have been designed as a TPK for some odd plot in the afterlife, but I'm stretching a bit there...
Invarus 06-23-05, 03:54 PM	Fair enough, read the edit above though, for a more specific question.
jnrhayz 06-23-05, 03:58 PM	While their have been a number of suggestions thrown around, I've noticed that not a lot of people have actually answered the simple question that's supposed to be the focus of the discussion: Is our DM crazy? To be fair, we don't have enough information. There could be some simple solution you missed and will eventually figure out, or yes he could be crazy and is just tired of DMing and wants to kill you all. Until this is resolved, I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt. You seemed to be enjoying the campaign up to this point and the fact that you state that character level or strength doesn't matter leads me to believe that there is an easier solution. Sounds like a clue that brute force won't solve this problem. Furthermore, he was adamant that the encounter was not revenge for our overpowered characters, as Invarus had said, this encounter would have been exactly the same even if we all all played with 25 point buy and put points into charisma with our barbarians. Good Luck and I will be waiting for the update.
Latro 06-23-05, 05:36 PM	How big was that dwarf exactly when comparing him to the size of that (and I quote) "small entryway"? No matter how sharp that turn you mentioned is, there should be things possible like peeking around the corner and peppering his big behind with a heavy crossbow. ... being very big does have some disadvantages :)
Invarus 06-23-05, 05:40 PM	Actually, he could easily reach anybody trying to shoot at him from around the corner, or just stand behind a wall beside the doorway so that we -had- to come in after him. Me, even if this were a situation in which I thought it would work, I can imagine us running out of arrows before he goes down.
Latro 06-23-05, 05:55 PM	Actually, he could easily reach anybody trying to shoot at him from around the corner, or just stand behind a wall beside the doorway so that we -had- to come in after him. Me, even if this were a situation in which I thought it would work, I can imagine us running out of arrows before he goes down. If you say so, but I still think it's a lot easier to spot that very big dwarf "hiding" around a corner than for him to spot you. His massive bulk would come into view before you have to move into his field of vision so to speak ... but if the DM's made clear that it isn't going to work then it stops ofcourse. How about this then: Fill the room with fog, smoke or anything that obscures vision. Run into the room and keep shooting anything you have in his direction. The noise he makes and his massive bulk should make him hard to miss while he would have a very hard time locating small moving targets in the fog or smoke.
Invarus 06-23-05, 06:00 PM	I'd be worried about him either stepping on someone, or finding them just by running into them, and smashing them down. I'd rather not play the odds that way though. If it comes down to us attacking him with a 50% miss chance, and him slowly trying to find us, I'd place my odds on him. All he needs to do is catch one person and we wind up with a casulaty.
wonlee76 06-23-05, 06:01 PM	The only WoTC spell I can think of that can change the size of someone to Gargantuan size is the Giant Size Spell in Complete Arcane. Its an 8th level Wu Jen Spell if I recall correctly which means it can't be put into potion form (but could be put into pill form I guess with craft wondrous item). Giant Size is a very very powerful spell. Huge increase in strength and con. Reduction in AC. Presuming you're accurate, your DM cheated in letting this crazy dwarf have a "potion" of Giant Size. Only reasonable tactics that could be used against an enemy like this at your level is to dispel the potion effect (as well as any other buffs that the guy might have such as haste), slow him down in some ways (Slow, Web, etc.) and start taking range attacks on him until the potion wears off, de-buff him with Ray of Enfeeblement and such. Big (as in size) enemies usually requires range attacks instead of melee attacks due to the enemy probably having bonuses to strength and con. I don't consider the above tactic to be a "trick" in defeating the enemy but rather sound tactics by the group. Stay away from his reach to avoid full attacks and start whittling him down until the potion wears off then move in for melee attacks. As to your original question, I don't think this was an appropriate encounter for the group seeing that he gave the enemy access to an 8th level spell (plus the possibility of other spells such as haste).
ServantOfTheLordYawgmoth 06-23-05, 08:16 PM	I'm not sure what I can say about the situation itself that hasn't already been said. However, I would like to throw in my two cents in response to your question as to whether or not the encounter is balanced. To put it bluntly: there's no way for us to tell. Once this is all over if you convince your DM to post the stat block here, maybe we could try to tell you. Unless that happens, however, we don't know what was luck, and what was a simple effect of a circumstance that you didn't even notice. I've killed over half my party with a single monster of exactly their CR; it's entirely possible for this to be the same circumstance. It's also equally possible that your DM missed a "1" when he read the CR. He could be an absolute imbecile who's throwing an absurdly unfair encounter at you without knowing it, or he could be a brilliant DM who gave you an interesting encounter that you just happened to screw up due to some very bad luck. Either way, we can't tell whether or not he was giving you a balanced encounter unless we see the actual plans for the encounter. And I'm guessing that that's not happening for a while.
DeathMagus 06-23-05, 09:10 PM	To put it bluntly: there's no way for us to tell. :bow: What he said. :bow:
Timlagor 06-24-05, 04:42 PM	I don't know if it's a "fair" fight. I've pretty much only played Living Greyhawk so my conception of a fair fight is probably much much tougher than most. Here's how you beat it: You know exactly where he is and have nothing else to do today. Start with every buff you can pump out before you enter the room. Haste Mage Armour Shield of Faith -oops no Cleric!! (you really should have found one when you went back to town) Enlarge Bull's Strength Cat's Grace Invisibility -from a scroll Haste from Scroll (just before you go in) Use potions as well -this is a tough fight -it's worth spending resources on. 3rd Level Spells Dispel Magic Slow In combat Wizard Casts Dispel Magic then Slow then Grease (big things usually have low reflex but ask the DM how well the dwarf was moving) Barb uses Hit and Run to avoid taking a full attack sequence (1 + AoO is better than 5) -since you aren't standing toe-to-toe you can live without Haste. Have either of your fighers got Blindfighting? -if so Obscuring Mist or Smokesticks would be very useful. If you stay in the tunnel he may be able to reach you but you will have cover. You could try taking it in turns to shoot from there. Does he sleep? if so have to Rogue sneak in and Coup de Gras him while he does so (and the Fighters without their armour pound on him too). He probably has faster than normal healing while in his lair and may well not be a dwarf (flesh golem?) I woudl recommend pouyring gallons of oil into the room and lighting it but that might not be helpful in your situation... You could buy a dozen guard dogs to keep it busy though. You might also have the Wizard do a bit of reasearch on this critter and the rogue Gather Information. That's all I can think of right now.
Timlagor 06-24-05, 04:48 PM	Don't know what happened here. Sorry folks
Timlagor 06-24-05, 05:07 PM	Cut!
Timlagor 06-24-05, 05:26 PM	<snip>
Iron Cobra 06-24-05, 05:35 PM	I don't know if it's a "fair" fight. I've pretty much only played Living Greyhawk so my conception of a fair fight is probably much much tougher than most. Here's how you beat it: You know exactly where he is and have nothing else to do today. Start with every buff you can pump out before you enter the room. Haste Mage Armour Shield of Faith -oops no Cleric!! (you really should have found one when you went back to town) Enlarge Bull's Strength Cat's Grace Invisibility -from a scroll Haste from Scroll (just before you go in) Use potions as well -this is a tough fight -it's worth spending resources on. 3rd Level Spells Dispel Magic Slow In combat Wizard Casts Dispel Magic then Slow then Grease (big things usually have low reflex but ask the DM how well the dwarf was moving) Barb uses Hit and Run to avoid taking a full attack sequence (1 + AoO is better than 5) -since you aren't standing toe-to-toe you can live without Haste. Have either of your fighers got Blindfighting? -if so Obscuring Mist or Smokesticks would be very useful. If you stay in the tunnel he may be able to reach you but you will have cover. You could try taking it in turns to shoot from there. Does he sleep? if so have to Rogue sneak in and Coup de Gras him while he does so (and the Fighters without their armour pound on him too). He probably has faster than normal healing while in his lair and may well not be a dwarf (flesh golem?) I woudl recommend pouyring gallons of oil into the room and lighting it but that might not be helpful in your situation... You could buy a dozen guard dogs to keep it busy though. You might also have the Wizard do a bit of reasearch on this critter and the rogue Gather Information. That's all I can think of right now.
Invarus 06-29-05, 01:01 AM	After a little bit of badgering, our DM finally gave us the stats on the dwarf. He seemed as interested in the feedback as we are. Lost Retainer Gargantuan Outsider HD: 12d8+87 (141 hp) Init: +0 Speed: 20 ft. AC: 17 (+7 half plate, -4 size, +4 Guardian spirits) Attack: Battleaxe +18 melee (4d6+12/x3) Full Attack: Battleaxe +18 melee (4d6+12/x3), 4 Guardian spirits +13 melee (2d8+6/x2) Face: 20 ft./20 ft. Special Attacks: Weight of the mountains Special Qualities: SR 20, Great guardian, Guardian spirits Saves: Fort +16, Ref +8, Will +8 Abilities: Str 35, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 Skills: Listen +12, Spot +12, Search +7, Climb +22, Jump +22, Knowledge (Religion, History, Nobility and Royalty) +15 Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Power Attack,Tougness CR: 5 Weight of Mountains (Su): As a standard action, a lost retainer may seize all creatures in a 10 ft. radius spread centered up to 10 ft. away from him with a crushing force. Creatures in the area must succeed at a reflex save (DC 23) or be treated as immediately pinned by the lost retainer. Every round beyond the first that the lost retainer maintains this effect (during which time he may take no other actions, not even a 5 ft. step), pinned creatures take 4d6 points of lethal damage for every round beyond the first. Creatures may attempt grapple checks on their rounds to break free of this effect. Creatures that succeed at their reflex saves, or successfully break free, are not further affected by the same attempt. Guardian Spirits (Su): The lost retainer is surrounded by invisible spirits at all times. These creatures participate in any full-attack action made by the lost retainer. Each guardian spirit deals 2d8+6 points of damage with a successful attack, and is treated as a secondary attack for the lost retainer. The lost retainer must devote some effort to directing the spirits, and so may not make any iterative attacks when he employs them. The guardian spirits also form a layer of protection around the lost retainer, granting him a natural armor bonus of +4, but slightly interfering with his movements, resulting in a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Great Guardian (Ex): The lost retainer is immune to all effects that would specifically affect outsiders. Is this thing balanced for a party of level 5's?
Maerdash 06-29-05, 01:30 AM	After a little bit of badgering, our DM finally gave us the stats on the dwarf. He seemed as interested in the feedback as we are. Lost Retainer Gargantuan Outsider HD: 12d8+87 (141 hp) Init: +0 Speed: 20 ft. AC: 17 (+7 half plate, -4 size, +4 Guardian spirits) Attack: Battleaxe +18 melee (4d6+12/x3) Full Attack: Battleaxe +18 melee (4d6+12/x3), 4 Guardian spirits +13 melee (2d8+6/x2) Face: 20 ft./20 ft. Special Attacks: Weight of the mountains Special Qualities: SR 20, Great guardian, Guardian spirits Saves: Fort +16, Ref +8, Will +8 Abilities: Str 35, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 Skills: Listen +12, Spot +12, Search +7, Climb +22, Jump +22, Knowledge (Religion, History, Nobility and Royalty) +15 Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Power Attack,Tougness CR: 5 Weight of Mountains (Su): As a standard action, a lost retainer may seize all creatures in a 10 ft. radius spread centered up to 10 ft. away from him with a crushing force. Creatures in the area must succeed at a reflex save (DC 23) or be treated as immediately pinned by the lost retainer. Every round beyond the first that the lost retainer maintains this effect (during which time he may take no other actions, not even a 5 ft. step), pinned creatures take 4d6 points of lethal damage for every round beyond the first. Creatures may attempt grapple checks on their rounds to break free of this effect. Creatures that succeed at their reflex saves, or successfully break free, are not further affected by the same attempt. Guardian Spirits (Su): The lost retainer is surrounded by invisible spirits at all times. These creatures participate in any full-attack action made by the lost retainer. Each guardian spirit deals 2d8+6 points of damage with a successful attack, and is treated as a secondary attack for the lost retainer. The lost retainer must devote some effort to directing the spirits, and so may not make any iterative attacks when he employs them. The guardian spirits also form a layer of protection around the lost retainer, granting him a natural armor bonus of +4, but slightly interfering with his movements, resulting in a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Great Guardian (Ex): The lost retainer is immune to all effects that would specifically affect outsiders. Is this thing balanced for a party of level 5's? OMG! No thats not balanced for a 5th level party! That thing could be a headache for a 10th level party in the right circumstances. Its about on the same level as a Storm giant which is a cr13, it may be stronger than the storm giant I'd have to cross check them and its not worth it when I can see that that beast should have never been put against a 5th level party in a serious fight. That said everyone makes mistakes forgive and forget, then move on.
MoogleEmpMog 06-29-05, 01:57 AM	:eek: That's not a CR 5 by the most outlandish stretch of the imagination! If it were a Giant instead of an Outsider (lower BAB, fewer skill points, and most importantly worse saves), without the guardian spirits(!), without spell resistance(!), without an ability that specifically exempts it from its type's weaknesses(!) and without a special attack liable to defeat 5th level adventurers by default, it might be vaguely balanced - as CR 8, if not 9. As written, I'd pencil it in at CR 12.
Timlagor 06-29-05, 02:49 AM	Not even slightly fair. The SR scuppers most of the ways they might have a hope of beating it. It's got a relatively low AC though and no special healing mentioned: tha means 12hp per day. You should be able to hit it with an arrow and retreat up the tunnel several times over the course of the day and eventually wear it down. SR:No spells could help too -so would a Cleric of course. There's absolutely no way you want to be in the same room as it. Have you got Fireballs? SR20 is not completely unbeatable so you might do it some damage that way too and maybe even get it away from the tunnel so you can get a shot off without being hit. Of course it's not even remotely a fair fight.
Dragonsblood 06-29-05, 03:07 AM	Something tells me the DM misread that CR: 5 and missed the 1. It should be closer to CR: 15
Invarus 06-29-05, 03:08 AM	Yep, CR 5, no doubt about it.
celtredleg 06-29-05, 10:27 AM	Where did he find that monster??? no way thats a fair fight!!!
Mikal 06-29-05, 10:38 AM	It has to be homebrew. No way anything that unbalanced was made CR 5 by a wotc book. Not even third party is usually that bad.
Ut-Napishtim 06-29-05, 10:48 AM	I agree, definitely not a CR 5. Definitely.
Invarus 06-29-05, 01:20 PM	Our DM asserts that he has WotC's backing on this one.
Steely Glint 06-29-05, 01:30 PM	As everyone else has said, this is hugely overpowered as a CR 5 encounter. WotC has produced other similarly mis-Cr'ed creatures before. If I recall correctly, the banelar was described in 3.0 as a huge creature which can cast 3rd level wizard and cleric spells as a free action every round. It was also labelled as a CR 5 creature.
Invarus 06-29-05, 01:40 PM	Yeah, that sounds about right. I think the creature he's talking about is more towards the "I" section of the book though. Funny thing is, if I remember correctly, WotC brought the Monsters of Faerun over to 3.5 with "corrections" that actually amounted to very little, in the 3.5 version of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
Bruunwald 06-29-05, 01:44 PM	Your DM is bull******** you. If the tank goes down in a round, it's overpowered. I don't know... It's unlikely, but let me give an example of how a tank can be felled in a single round in a non-overpowered situation. The party went out after some missing kids and found them in a cage in a clearing, surrounded by watchful ogres. It was an obvious trap. They decided to send in the half-ogre barbarian (a very powerful tank, even at 4th-level). Their scheme was to get him close by having him pose as a member of the cult the ogres were a part of. He walked right up to them and found himself in a situation where he was being questioned by three suspicious ogres with clubs - all adjacent. He decided to try to bluff past them. His roll was really low and their rolls were really high. Seeing that they didn't buy it, everybody rolled for initiative. Guess who won, hands-down? I rolled two 19s and a 20 for the ogres, the player rolled a 2 for his half-ogre. The rest of the party rolled moderately well, but didn't have any kind of plan for backing this guy up. I then rolled for the ogres' attacks and rolled two criticals with a huge amount of damage on the dice. The third, though not a crit, ended up being for the maximum damage on a natural roll! I was rolling right out in the open, so flubbing a number was not an option in this case. Down went the half-ogre, dead. I mean, dead. Before he could do anything. The party could not get to him in time and their ranged attacks fell short. In this case: bad plan + many very bad rolls = character death in the first round. I agree that it sounds suspicious that this dwarf so easily blasted this party. Then again, I agree with some of the others that a simple solution may have been available, like dispel magic. All I'm saying is that the tank can be felled in the first round without the DM being up to something bad. It's rare, but it happens.
Mikal 06-29-05, 01:45 PM	Our DM asserts that he has WotC's backing on this one. Good. What book and what page number then?
Invarus 06-29-05, 01:52 PM	Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerun, p62. Ibrandlin Gargantuan Dragon (Fire) Initiative: +0 Speed: 20 ft., climb 20 ft. AC: 17 (+11 natural, -4 size) Attacks: Bite +18 melee, 4 claws +13 melee Damage: Bite 4d6+12, claw 2d8+6 Face/Reach: 10 ft. by 30 ft./15 ft. Special Attacks: Breath weapon, pin Special Qualities: Fire Subtype, SR 20 Saves: Fort +14, Ref +7, Will +7 Abilities: Str 35, Dex 11, Con 24, Int 4, Wis 10, cha 9 Skills: Climb +20, Jump +22, Listen +12, Search +7, Spot +12 Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Power Attack etc. etc. CR 5 Breath Weapon (Su): Total crud; no, I'm serious. Pin (Ex): Essentially Weight of the mountain from the dwarf stat block, except the Ibrandlin jumps on a 10 ft. by 30 ft. area. Obviously this is the 3.0 style information. It'd be 20 ft./15 ft. for Face in 3.5, have one more feat, and the presentation for its statistics would be different. Notice any similarities between this guy and the "dwarf"? That's right.
Mikal 06-29-05, 02:01 PM	:eek: ...just... :eek: On the other side of the coin however, Dragons have always had an artificially lower CR then they need. That plus the fact it looks like this 'Dwarf' has even more strengths (no fire subtype for example, plus outsider traits and immunitiy to things that could help against outsiders) skews it even worse.
solbergb 06-29-05, 02:04 PM	Ok, lets break this down Lost Retainer Gargantuan Outsider HD: 12d8+87 (141 hp) Init: +0 Speed: 20 ft. AC: 17 (+7 half plate, -4 size, +4 Guardian spirits) Well right off the bat, an outsider with 12 hit dice is at least CR6. Outsiders (with their good saves, full bab etc) advance at 1/2 hit dice. So far, this is doable with a L5 party though. The AC is low, the speed is low, the hit points are high but not insane. Attack: Battleaxe +18 melee (4d6+12/x3) Full Attack: Battleaxe +18 melee (4d6+12/x3), 4 Guardian spirits +13 melee (2d8+6/x2) Face: 20 ft./20 ft. To analyze damage, it is useful to think of three armor classes: Fullplate Tank (usually APL+20ish in the lower levels), Light infantry (chain shirt, buckler and dexterity) usually about AC20 in the low levels and "Squishie"..which is anything the monster can always hit. For this I more or less assume the automisses and crits cancel when over 20% hit rates. From a hitpoint standpoint, a tank will have roughly 30-50hp in this level, light infantry more like 30-40 and a squishie 20-30 Single shot damage: Tank: 70% of the time do 26 damage Light: 95% of the time do 26 damage Squish: 100% of the time do 26 damage. Full attack damage: Tank: 45 damage Light: 67 damage Squish: 86 damage. So we have a monster here that drops a squishie in one hit, light infantry in two and on average the tank in 3 hits. Only the tank has a chance of surviving a full attack, and good dice will drop him. Now...lets compare this to a troll, which is pretty much the definition of a CR5 melee monster. It has 2x the hitpoints (considering the regen capability of the troll), slightly higher AC, but even with a rend, a troll only does 38 points to a squishie, and has only a +9/4 attack mod rather than +18/13. This is a good sign the monster is out of whack. Lets move up to an Annis Hag, which is a fairly scary mele monster to see how CR's progress. CR6, we have only 1/4 the hit points but higher AC, and damage potental on a sqishie is 45 with attacks in the +13 range. So it isn't CR6 either. Lets go to CR7, hill giant. In melee, a hill giant has 2/3 the hp, somewhat higher AC and +16/11 attack mod but and does 38 dmg vs something with decent AC, power attack brings that up to 72. We're getting in the ballpark. CR8, stone giant. Less hp but enough better AC that this is a wash. +17/12 attack mod, 42 on a solid target, power attack to 82. Yeah, that looks about right. So on a basis of hp, ac and attacks, just on that, we're at CR8. Still possible for a level 5 party, but EL+3. Now lets look at feats Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Power Attack,Tougness Ok, this guy also has power attack, but it would only apply to the greataxe attack because of how the guardian spirits work. He's more dangerous to squishies but no more to tanks. I'd say no CR bump off of feats - he might be creeping up to CR9, but it's borderline. Special Attacks: Weight of the mountains Special Qualities: SR 20, Great guardian, Guardian spirits The SR20 ...is a pretty big deal. So is the Weight of the Mountains, that is a very significant SU ability. This is similar to a 12HD criter with a half-fiend template added. (half-fiend gives 22 SR, blasphemy plus other spell-like abilities, DR magic and elemental resistances). It isn't QUITE as bad as half-fiend though, so it is probably not bumped +3 CR. It is more powerful than just fiendish though, which gives CR+17 and elemental resistances for +2CR. The Weight of Mountains has more in common with Blasphemy than Smite. Plus Great Guardian means that things like dismissal don't work, it is a minor thing but it counters the elemental resistances somewhat. I'd say the monster was borderline CR8, nearly 9 on melee ability alone, call it 8.5 It is about CR2.5 adjusted for the abilities so now you are looking at a CR11 monster. Most level 8 parties would find it a tough fight, level 10 a routine fight. But lethal for level 5. I'd also say that the situation (enclosed area where it could reach most anyone and the weight of mountains had room to operate, and where its limited mobility wasn't an issue) also favored it, meaning the encounter describe was about CR12. Making it appropriate for a level 9 party as a tough fight, level 11ish as routine fight.
Invarus 06-29-05, 02:08 PM	Outsider traits that would make it more powerful? Like? The only thing I can think of would be lack of need to sleep, but I don't think that's going to be the great equalizer here. And somehow I think that by level 5, Fire Subtype is substantially more of an advantage than it is a disadvantage. To tell the truth, the outsider type HD is just the closest thing to dragon HD without actually giving the dwarf outsider HD.
solbergb 06-29-05, 02:08 PM	It is usually a better idea to base CR on the examples in the MM than on examples in suppliments. I don't know why, but most of the seriously fubarred CR ratings I see in Living Greyhawk always seem to come out of the Fiend Folio (Faerun isn't exactly a surprise either)
Mikal 06-29-05, 02:12 PM	Eh, outsider would make it more balanced if the DM hadn't thrown in 'immune to all effects that would affect outsiders'. This thing is way unbalanced, as dragons have been stated by Skip and a few of the older designers to be artifically low on the CR scale. Not that that makes it right, but this thing is in no way a CR 5.
Invarus 06-29-05, 02:12 PM	What stops Power Attack from applying to his Guardian Spirits? They're not light weapons.
solbergb 06-29-05, 02:20 PM	The description of guardian spirits. They aren't him. He gets two options: Iterative attack with axe, can power attack on all attacks. He's only doing 1x str damge, not 1.5 so he's not getting 2-1 power attack, but just 1-1. Maybe he has a shield? Full attack including axe and guardian spirits, with his "iteratives" being used to control the spirits. Kind of like using a move action to direct animals. They are independent of him, they shouldn't benefit by or be penalized by power attack. Although, eh, you could treat them like secondary natural attacks too, in which case they'd power attack 1-1, but since they're already at -5 to hit, he'd probably do better to not power attack on most opponents. In the context of an APL5 party, he can kill anyone but an AC tank in a full round anyway, without power attack . Power attack will hurt his chances against an AC tank. Therefore...no CR increase, or a very slight one because vs higher level parties he gets an advantage on a high hp/low AC target such as a summoned animal or a raging barbarian. CR's are pretty granular...the Su abilities/SR are more like Half-fiend than fiend, and the melee attack/defense capability is more like a stone giant than a frost giant. Add them together, being conservative either way and you come out with 11ish. I use giants as my basis because they have a similar damage/durability profile and share the mobility issues of the dwarf...and also when a party sees a very large dwarf they're more likely to behave as if they are fighting a giant than fighting a dragon. What is certain. It is not a troll, or even a fiendish troll. CR5 is silly. The monster can win 100% of the time vs any other CR5 monster or template combination or character build in the core books, assuming it isn't in very disadvantageous circumstances, such as on a wide-open plain facing more mobile archers. Put those CR5 monsters/characters in that cave with it and they will never, ever win. That's a sign it is out of whack, regardless of your opinion of how many resources a APL5 party uses vs a CR5 enemy normally.
Invarus 06-29-05, 03:14 PM	That sounds about right.
Merestil Haye 06-29-05, 03:42 PM	Let's do a bit more comparison. The weaknesses of this thing : AC, especially touch AC which weighs in at a wonderful 6. His strengths. He gets five attacks a round. His main attack (which, let it be noted, is in no wise being used optimally) is +18; however, a quick look at the NPC files in the DMG reveal that a 5th level NPC fighter has an AC of 21; 22 if some of his discretionary funds have been employed to enhance his armour. The beast has an 85% chance of hitting the main tank with his first attack and a 60% chance with each secondary attack. SR20 means a typical full caster has a 30% chance of affecting it with a spell. It's an outsider, so no sleep to allow someone to CdG it, and no poison will work. It has none of the specific outsider weaknesses though. What other creature gets 4 secondary attacks? That's right, dragons. So lets examine a few. The earliest age category to get five attacks is the one noted. Black : Young, attack bonus +12 for primary attack and +7 for secondary, CR5 Blue : Very young, attack bonus +11 for primary attack and +6 for secondary, CR4 Green : Very young, attack bonus +10 for primary attack and +5 for secondary, CR4 Red : Wyrmling, attack bonus +10 for primary attack and +5 for secondary, CR4 White : Young, attack bonus +11 for primary attack and +6 for secondary, CR4 Notice the pattern? The dragons get 5 attacks per round at an early stage, usually CR4 or CR5, but their attack bonuses are substantially lower than that of the guardian. This is the root of the problem; the additional bonuses to hit and damage from the enormous strength - probably a factor of the size. There is no way this is a CR5. A properly constituted 5th level party may be able to do something - spellcasters with no-SR spells, Ray of Enfeeblement, a monk with boots to dash in, stirke and dash out again - all this may be possible, but unfortunately it's a high-risk process with plenty of chances to lose characters. I'd say this would be risky in close quarters for an 8th level group, simply because of the high attacks and attack bonuses.
Phrennzy 06-29-05, 04:34 PM	Weight of Mountains (Su): As a standard action, a lost retainer may seize all creatures in a 10 ft. radius spread centered up to 10 ft. away from him with a crushing force. Creatures in the area must succeed at a reflex save (DC 23) or be treated as immediately pinned by the lost retainer. Every round beyond the first that the lost retainer maintains this effect (during which time he may take no other actions, not even a 5 ft. step), pinned creatures take 4d6 points of lethal damage for every round beyond the first. Creatures may attempt grapple checks on their rounds to break free of this effect. Creatures that succeed at their reflex saves, or successfully break free, are not further affected by the same attempt. this ability alone could easily be the end for everyone. a 20' diameter of an area that NO ONE 5th level is gonna escape. Ref DC 23? Good luck with that. And then breaking the grapple check of a Gargantuan creature (+12) with a 35 Str (+12) plus BAB (+6 apparently) = +30 + 1d20. ...Not Gonna Do It.
solbergb 06-29-05, 05:02 PM	grapple would be 12(strength)+12(outsider BAB, 12 hit dice)+16(gargantuan) = +40. nobody escapes the grapple check barring freedom of movement, blink or something similar. Which is why I compared it to half-fiend (and their Blasphemy spell like abilitity). A 12hd blasphemy against a level 5 party = entire party is paralyzed with no saving throw. The only defense is to be silenced for the entire battle or to be a travel domain cleric (and the latter is still dazed for one round and weakened for many rounds) At level 8, some of the grapplers in the party can excape if they roll a 20 and it rolls a 1 (grapple checks in low 20s happen with enlarged or polymorphed fighter types). You also start seeing the spell counters to the tactic. By level 12, one guy with dim door can get the party out of trouble, and most arcane casters have anti-grapple defenses of some kind, and many clerics enter battle with freedom of movement running. Also a really dedicated grappler/anti-grappler/escape artist could get out before the 4d6/round stuff killed them. So that ability on a CR11 monster is ok, nasty, but ok. On a CR5 monster....no. At level 5 the only grapple counter likely to be in play is enlarge person+bull strength+grease on your best and strongest guy. an 18 str fighter with all three spells would at level 5 have a "grapple to escape" check of +26. With just grease, or just enlarge/bull str, that drops to +19 and +16, respectively. Both in the "impossible" range. Only a travel domain cleric is gonna get out of that one.
Phrennzy 06-29-05, 06:39 PM	grapple would be 12(strength)+12(outsider BAB, 12 hit dice)+16(gargantuan) = +40. Gargantuan is only +12. "Only" LOL. At least, in 3.5. I was curious about that BAB too - his To Hit is +18, but his STR accounts for +12 of that...why would he only get +6 from his HD if he has outsider based BAB. Or Dragon for that matter? Both are as fighter, +12. Shouldn't his to hit be +24?
Invarus 06-29-05, 07:53 PM	-4 from gargantuan size, -2 from Guardian spirits.
solbergb 06-29-05, 08:09 PM	ok, confused, don't have the size chart in front of me (I lose track which is which after Huge). But if it is -4 size mod on AC and attack roll, then it is +16 size mod in grapple (it's the same size mod, x-1 normally, x4 for grapple, sunder, disarm,etc)
Invarus 06-29-05, 08:12 PM	What? In a grapple: Large = +4 Huge = +8 Gargantuan = +12 Colossal = +16 The -4 penalty doesn't apply to grapple checks.
Maerdash 06-29-05, 09:54 PM	Why is this even a debate? NO ONE could honestly think this thing is a CR5, I mean come on, compare it to a CR8 creature in combat, I promise this thing will win unless its faced in the open against highly mobile ranged attackers. Its ridiculous to argue this thing is a CR5 or even a CR9.
Invarus 06-30-05, 05:08 AM	Well, apparently WotC does. Look folks, I think the idea here is that this was a violent prank on the part of the DM to make the party look at the Ibrandlin, an official D&D monster, and officially branded as CR 5 by WotC. This "dwarf" was essentially just a copy of the Ibrandlin, with a few minor changes. A disguise so that none of the party would go "Oh, it's an Ibrandlin" right off the bat, because we all know that's overpowered. Actually that's all lies, except for the part where our play group knows the Ibrandlin is totally overpowered. This was an elaborate setup by Mr. Cleaver and myself designed to figure out what people on the boards thought about the stat setup and CR of the Ibrandlin. We figured that we'd get a more "honest" reaction if we depicted the monster as a homebrew, instead of relating official material. It's pretty clear that everybody thinks WotC is just totally wrong on this thing. All parties depicted in this adventure are either fictitious or dead.
Cymraegmorgan 06-30-05, 05:57 AM	Well, apparently WotC does. Actually that's all lies, except for the part where our play group knows the Ibrandlin is totally overpowered. This was an elaborate setup by Mr. Cleaver and myself designed to figure out what people on the boards thought about the stat setup and CR of the Ibrandlin. We figured that we'd get a more "honest" reaction if we depicted the monster as a homebrew, instead of relating official material. It's pretty clear that everybody thinks WotC is just totally wrong on this thing. All parties depicted in this adventure are either fictitious or dead. From the CoC: trolling or baiting by putting to the screen inflammatory statements designed to elicit a negative response from the community While you, Invarus and Mr. Cleaver, may not have been seeking a "negative" response from the community, you did misrepresent yourselves. And as such, you two deserve the titles of TROLLS. The Original Post was a violation of the spirit, if not the letter, of the CoC.
Invarus 06-30-05, 06:01 AM	If you say so. Me, I think what we did is pretty innocent. I mean, I'd understand it if somebody did it to me. Granted, we lied, you can nail us on that one. I'm not quite sure "inflammatory" and "negative" are the words I'd use here, at least not in the context I think they're meant to apply. That's just me. I suppose it's worth adding that if we hadn't come out and admitted that we made this whole thing up, it would never have bothered anybody.
Timlagor 06-30-05, 08:37 AM	1) You lied 2) It's extremely insulting to suggest that people wouldn't give you an honest reaction -and I don't think it's true either.
Phrennzy 06-30-05, 10:06 AM	It's extremely insulting to suggest that people wouldn't give you an honest reaction -and I don't think it's true either. I'll agree with that. And if it never happened and is all fictional, why even say so? That's just stirring up ****. On the good side, at least your DM isn't the loser the posts made him out to be.
solbergb 06-30-05, 12:25 PM	Eh. I don't mind doing the CR analysis. Use what I posted, it's straight out of the MM rules for adjudicating CR. Doesn't matter if some WOTC editor got it wrong, any DM can use that approach to put the correct CR on a monster. And yeah, at least the DM isn't as clueless as he seemed to be. It means one more group of players out there is actually having fun with the game, which is kind of the point.
Mikal 06-30-05, 02:19 PM	Hmm... actually i wouldn't call them trolls. They just decided to see what the reaction would be about a particular monster, and wanted to see how people reacted to the stats themselves, without the stigma of it being 'official' (which i realized I fell prey to in a prior post on this thread). Not bad, all in all. :)
solbergb 06-30-05, 04:29 PM	As a side note, a lot of stuff was badly CR'd in 3.0 that was corrected in 3.5. Outsiders and dragons in particular got some bumps. Any 3.0 source that has not been upgraded needs to be re-CR'ed by the DM, period, no exceptions. (you have to go over the abilities and statblock anyway, as size/reach changed and the behavior of some spells and abilities changed)
mrcleaver 06-30-05, 05:21 PM	Hmm... actually i wouldn't call them trolls. They just decided to see what the reaction would be about a particular monster, and wanted to see how people reacted to the stats themselves, without the stigma of it being 'official' (which i realized I fell prey to in a prior post on this thread). Not bad, all in all. :) Thanks for the support Mikal. We apologize if out revelation had in any way offended people, and honestly it was not our intention to make fools of anyone. In polls and stat taking, sometimes it is neccessary to mask your questions in such a way that the people taking the poll aren't actually 'in the know' about its true intentions, and this is what we did (or at least tried to do) here, to try to get a more 'neutral' response, if you will. There are a lot of people who have strong faith in official, released products (and it's not totally unfounded, there's a lot of quality there). But we have had experiences within our own group with people who believed that the Ibrandlin was balanced at CR 5, with no real explanation, and we have experiences with people who would much rather trust the number printed on the book, than what a couple of players said after looking at the stat block. This is the reasoning behind us masking the question in the form of a homebrew. I must say though, I'm surprised at how much anger this has caused, maybe it would have been better to not tell you what we were doing?
Invarus 06-30-05, 05:40 PM	As a side note, a lot of stuff was badly CR'd in 3.0 that was corrected in 3.5. Outsiders and dragons in particular got some bumps. Any 3.0 source that has not been upgraded needs to be re-CR'ed by the DM, period, no exceptions. (you have to go over the abilities and statblock anyway, as size/reach changed and the behavior of some spells and abilities changed) Actually, part of the reason we brought this up was because they did essentially "errata" the Ibrandlin, along with the other monsters in the Monsters of Faerun, in the new 3.5 Faerun campaign setting. There's a set of statistics for each monster to show what's changed from 3.0. Most of it is just technical rewording, since the 3.0 stat blocks are done somewhat differently from the 3.5 stat blocks, and some general rules governing monsters are different. I believe the Ibrandlin received no modification to its CR or crazy abilities.