Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AladinZane 01-19-06, 01:11 PM	what rolls do you think a DM should roll behind the screen and which ones should he roll in front? Our groups DM has recently resolved to make EVERY roll behind the screen, including attack rolls, damage rolls and NPC saving throws. fair? fun?
DrakeAnaya 01-19-06, 01:31 PM	I've read about some people who will make secret rolls for "passive" skills like listen and spot - after all, if the player knows he failed at finding or hearing something, he'll just try again or make someone else do it for him (this happens a lot in the games I play). Trapfinding, too. "You don't find any traps" could be a response for both a success AND a failure. so. y'know. things that the players are actively doing, like attacking, making reflex saves... those should be open. I have mixed feelings about things like diplomacy and sense motive, since they can fit under either category. and, of course, my DMs usually roll every NPC thing in secret.
Inigo Carmine 01-19-06, 01:47 PM	As a DM, I roll 99% of everything in secret. My DMs typcially do this too when I'm the player. There is a lot of trust between the players/DMs in the games I play in. While people occasionally add things up wrong (usually not to their benefit, like forgetting to add the bonus from Prayer or something), we are an honest group. In fact, I almost never look at my players rolls unless I have nothing else to do behind the screen (which is rarely) or if I don't trust someone (not that I suspect cheating, but even after a few years some of my friends are *really* bad at D&D math). The one exception I make, and i think my DMs do this too, is for very important rolls...usually adding to the tension or some such. For example, if I was going to confirm the critical with an X4 weapon, I might roll the confirmation in plain view. Similarly, I might roll an important saving throw (like the BBEG) in plain view. Also...rolling in plain view is a pain. The way we set up our games, to roll in plain view the DM has to stand up and lean over the DM screen, or be standing somewhere other than the DM seat.
kraegor 01-19-06, 01:47 PM	I never let my players know what I am rolling, and therefore never use a GM screen. I think a GM screen displaces you from the group, and I like to feel that I am part of it. The players to enjoy the game shouldn't be looking at my rolls anyways, they should be focused on thiers. Here are a few hints. Just roll randomly, all the time. Drives the meta-gamers crazy since they always think something is after them. Roll the monsters attacks while the players are discussing what to do on thier turn. They won't notice. Roll a d10 and double it on some rolls for unimportant stuff, or use a 1d4, or 1d6 and close estimate % chances for things, not only will your players have no idea what you rolled for, or why, it challenges you. Use those tips for rolling and you wont ever need a GM screen. Oh, and by the way, if you leave out somemthing for them to see such as a picture, a map or something and you didn't want them to see it.. your fault.
Thelandrach 01-19-06, 01:54 PM	I will roll for my players in two situations: 1. If the PC's don't realize they're using a skill (do they spot the bad guy, did they hear the noise, does an obscure reference in a conversation with an NPC remind them of something). 2. If they don't know immediately what the result is (did they disarm the pressure plate that causes the trap at the far end of the corridor to deactivate, have they successfully Sensed the Motive or Persuaded somebody). If they specifically say they're using a skill (which, by the way, I tend to discourage for things like Search and Spot; "I have Search at +15; I roll an 18, so I got a 33; what do I find?") or if the effects are immediately obvious (like picking locks), I let them roll it. Edited to add, I always roll behind a DM screen because I have the wildest strings of luck when I'm DMing that would result in multiple TPK's otherwise. Oddly enough, this does not happen when I'm playing rather than running...
20goingon1232 01-19-06, 03:25 PM	what rolls do you think a DM should roll behind the screen and which ones should he roll in front? Our groups DM has recently resolved to make EVERY roll behind the screen, including attack rolls, damage rolls and NPC saving throws. fair? fun? All rolls are made in the open where everyone can see. Only things done behind the DM screen (in reality my MM) is the running total of the health of the monsters.
Twisted Puppy 01-19-06, 03:58 PM	It all depends on the group. When I DM, most rolls are in the open, but not all. As I said in another thread, the characters don't really need to know if the gnoll sneaking up on their camp beat a listen check with a lucky 20, or because I gave it levels in ranger, the stealth feat, boots of elvenkid, and the roll was a 3. I will usually let a player (one not affected by the particular roll) see the result, especially if it is a 20 or a 1. Other times I have rolled the die behind the screen and covered it with a piece of paper or a cup to let the result be seen later. It depends the relationship between the players and the DM. To me, it has always been up to the DM. As a player I have no problem with the DM rolling behind a screen. It is their prerogative. IMX a lot of the players who complain about DMs rolling behind the screen and "cheating" have a player-vs-DM approach to the game in the first place. Before I get flamed for writing that, I will acknowledge that the DM who actually DOES that either has the same problem (if he makes changes that hurt the PCs) or has made a mistake and is trying to fix it (if he makes changes in their favor.) I can understand the second, and have done it myself, although there are often ways to get the same effect (letting the PCs out of a bad situation) that aren't dependent on a die roll.
Traevanon 01-19-06, 04:25 PM	Another fair use of the DM screen is to secretly make faces and gestures at players you dont like all that well. ; ) The DM can make any roll he likes behind the screen. Common uses are search checks, listen and spot. If you need your DM to roll every roll out in the open (even things you wouldnt know you were doing unless you suceeded) you are being a bit untrusting. I DM from a seperate desk, but I also have 9 players, so I need the space. I will come roll big crit confirm rolls and such on the main table.
Nom 01-19-06, 04:27 PM	Not about hidden rolling, but there is one big drawback to DM screens - they separate you from the players. It's a lot harder to achieve immersion when your narrator is peering over a cardboard wall than if they're in amongst you. This particularly goes for social scenes, but can apply in combat too. During social scenes, I like the table in front of me relatively clear so I can RP with my whole upper torso. During combat, I'd rather not have to reach over a screen to play with the minis.
Jonrea 01-19-06, 06:44 PM	In the games I've played, all npc rolls, damage rolls, and passive rolls (listen, spot, ie) are rolled by dm behind screen/in box/etc. The players get to roll their own attack, saves -- basically everything that you can't metagame with. You're in control of your character, and you don't (un)consciously metagame.
Tuah 01-19-06, 08:02 PM	I like to keep all rolls hidden so I can keep the players alive when needed. I can always put them near to death, but I don't want their characters to die.
devinmdp 01-19-06, 08:11 PM	Exactly the reason why I make most of my rolls outside of the screen where the players can see it. Most specifically, I make all attack rolls (and damage rolls) and saves where the players can see them. That way, they know there is no fudging in my world, either for or against them. The dice fall where they may. This is also, IMO, realistic. There should be a qualitiative difference between a Kobold with a +1 attack modifier getting lucky and rolling five 19's on his attack dice and a skilled swordsman with a +12 attack bonus rolling five rolls of 7. It should be apparent in theory to the observer that the kobold is swinging wildly and getting lucky while the swordsman is using complex maneuvers and precise attack modes to accomplish his hits. Same with saves. A person making a DC 20 Ref save by rolling a 5 with a +15 Ref save bonus should be obviously easily rolling out of the way in a sort of casual way. While a lucky dude with a +1 Ref save who makes a 19 should have just made it out of the blast radius with his clothes singed and sweat pouring from his brow in concern. Yes, a DM can naturally narrate these distinctions, but given the hundreds of rolls the DM makes in the session, after a while the narrative gets tiresome and it's nice for the rolls to speak for themselves. The only rolls I roll secretly are usually opposed rolls where the outcome is uncertain once resolved. As far as me rolling for players, only for certain rolls where the success or failure is not apparent to the PC (such as Search rolls or Sense Motive rolls). Devin
thought_riot 01-19-06, 08:25 PM	I use a laptop when I DM, and it stands on a small side table next to the main table, i roll dice behind there. It doesn't seperate me from the players, and I can still keep rolls hidden. I roll all NPC rolls behind the screen, and I roll for the players only when their charatcers shouldnt know the result. For example, Listen/Spot/Search as been said before, and others like Use Rope, Disable Device, etc.
starfire311 01-19-06, 10:32 PM	I like to keep all rolls hidden so I can keep the players alive when needed. I can always put them near to death, but I don't want their characters to die. Just want to say this would really **** me off if I knew this and I was in your group, I want teh DM to play by the same rules as me, including the fact that both me and the NPCs can die. If there is no risk there is no reward. With that being said I don't roll in the open, but I dont use a screen either I despise them, I think them focus on my die rolls will break immersion as well as putting a wall between me and the players. Sometimes I will roll behind a book really quick or behind my hand, or just down on my end of the table, we ahve a big table and I get about 40% of it to me, so just by rolling in the open most of the time, they won't be able to see the results unless they are really paying attention.
ezogoul 01-19-06, 10:48 PM	I typically hide my own rolls as GM, yet will often call on the players to make those rolls for spots, listens, and search checks. It saves me that hassle of having to keep track of all of their skills. Up until last weekend, I and the other GM in our group used a 4 inch tall cardboard mini screen, that kept our rolls hidden when needed yet did not seperate us too much from the group. I now have a laptop that I use, setting it off to the side on a small table. I use it with a dice roller, initiative manager, and notes about encounters. Setting the laptop to the side makes it impossible for the players to see it as the screen is barely readable from the side. Having it to the side also keeps no barriers between myself, the other players, or the mini's.
Morbid 01-19-06, 10:53 PM	I roll about 99% of my rolls behind my screen as does Inigo.The only difference is when someone says something like, "No way, it's not possible!" Then I lift the screen so they can see.
devinmdp 01-19-06, 11:13 PM	With that being said I don't roll in the open, but I dont use a screen either I despise them, I think them focus on my die rolls will break immersion as well as putting a wall between me and the players. Sometimes I will roll behind a book really quick or behind my hand, or just down on my end of the table, we ahve a big table and I get about 40% of it to me, so just by rolling in the open most of the time, they won't be able to see the results unless they are really paying attention. I dunno. You'd be surprised what you can inadvertantly see even from across the table. I've played with many DMs who refuse to use a screen and I have to say, as a player, it really bothers me when they don't. As a player, your attention is focused most of the time on the DM, as you are paying attention to what he says for most of the game. That means it is difficult to not see what a die roll result is. Same with maps. I don't like having to worry about accidentally seeing all the DM's dungeon maps laid out there with no screen. As a longtime player, I can easily glance at a map for a fraction of a second and have the entire dungeon ruined for me. All it takes is one secret door seen. When DMs don't use a screen, I feel like I am a PC trying to avoid a gaze attack. It's not fun, but as I don't want to see the DM's maps or dice rolls, it forces me to engage in it. I'd rather just relax and let my eyes wander onto the back of a screen and not have to worry about it. Devin
danzig138 01-20-06, 01:56 AM	Whatever rolls he decides need to be rolled behind TWOFAI. What those rolls actually end up being will vary by group. Some groups like all the rolls in the open, some don't.
Cymraegmorgan 01-20-06, 02:47 AM	what rolls do you think a DM should roll behind the screen and which ones should he roll in front? Our groups DM has recently resolved to make EVERY roll behind the screen, including attack rolls, damage rolls and NPC saving throws. fair? fun? :weep: :weep: :weep: :tissue: :tissue: :tissue: Fair? Yes. Fun? Yes, if you trust him. If you don't trust him, why are you playing in his game? Why should you know the number rolled by the npc to hit your character? You either trust the DM, and accept his calls, or you should find another game?
jasper 01-20-06, 08:34 AM	:weep: :weep: :weep: :tissue: :tissue: :tissue: Fair? Yes. Fun? Yes, if you trust him. If you don't trust him, why are you playing in his game? Why should you know the number rolled by the npc to hit your character? You either trust the DM, and accept his calls, or you should find another game? And we have winner. You have won a Jasper no prize. If I at table or where some people can see my notes I use the screen to hide notes and rolls. Why? So you can't tell if I am ignoring the roll to let you live or die. If I am in the living room we are so spread out, only the couples sitting together can see each other rolls.
tarsia 01-20-06, 10:27 AM	As a DM, I use a DM screen, for a few reasons. One, I like to roll behind it. Secondly, I like to keep my adventure behind it. Thirdly, I like to keep the monster manual behind it, so no one can see that I'm looking at. Not that I have a problem with metagaming, it's just funner for everyone that way. I also like to clip sheets up to the screen for quick reference, so I'm not suffling around too much paper. However, I also keep the DM screen and materials off to one side a bit, so I can still easilly see the players and the battleboard. If they're exploring an area, I also have a tendancy to stand (since I can't draw on the whiteboard from my seat and have to walk a few steps anyway). It seems to work pretty well for us. The other games I've been playing in, largely do not bother with DM screens. It often depends on the DM's preference and what sort of game they're running.
lord_blackfang 01-20-06, 10:51 AM	In my group, the DM always rolls everything behind the screen, regardless of who is the DM at the moment. It just makes sense to us. When I DM, I also roll for PCs' passive skills (Listen, Spot) but our other DMs are usually too lazy to kep track of PCs' skill ranks and make the players roll.
Blackavar 01-20-06, 11:26 AM	I dunno. You'd be surprised what you can inadvertantly see even from across the table. I've played with many DMs who refuse to use a screen and I have to say, as a player, it really bothers me when they don't. As a player, your attention is focused most of the time on the DM, as you are paying attention to what he says for most of the game. That means it is difficult to not see what a die roll result is. Same with maps. I don't like having to worry about accidentally seeing all the DM's dungeon maps laid out there with no screen. As a longtime player, I can easily glance at a map for a fraction of a second and have the entire dungeon ruined for me. All it takes is one secret door seen. Devin Well, here's my personal solution to this problem that I use whenever I DM: I don't use written maps of dungeons. I just remember it. A dungeon doesn't have to have tons of twisty little passageways that take up a page of graph paper, in fact, most probably aren't. If someone wants a defended position, I think it makes sense to make it simpler (especially if you dig it underground, where a 100 foot passage is another million pounds of dirt to haul out). With the dungeon in my head, I don't need a DM screen (just rolling the occasional die behind my hand) and I can spend the whole session face-to-face with the players.
Chrono Nexus 01-20-06, 11:22 PM	Same here, Blackavar. I do have notes also, but they are so incredibly untranslatable and sloppy, only I can understand what they mean. I would prefer to do all of the rolling, but it is incredibly difficult to do all of the calculating of others' characters and stratedgies on my own. I instead only roll for the passive skills and for survival checks. Rolling behind the screen does something wonderful to the game- it removes the game element for the players. It becomes easier for the players to put aside the number-crunching aspect of the game for the active-story telling part. It makes the game sessions more unpredictable, detailed, and exciting for the entire group.
JadeSpider9643 01-20-06, 11:50 PM	be definition the rolls that should be made behind the screen are: the rolls the DM wants to keep hidden. that said, some DMs handle secret rolls differently. Some DMs keep a list of the PC's spot and listen modifiers and roll those secretly, some like to reserve the right to fudge NPC rolls. Even the ones that don't like to fudge rolls sometimes find it necessary when the NPCs confirm 7 critical hits in a row.
Tristan 01-21-06, 04:55 PM	I think its better for the Dm to roll "in secret" One reason is for the "try again" metagaming problem the other is so the DM can protect the party. "Maybe its best if I pretend that instant kill was just an instant hit"
Raven Dark 01-21-06, 05:37 PM	For those of you who worry the DM screen seperates you from the players and kind of kills the mood, I have an easy fix: Stand up and look your players in the eyes when you narrate. Otherwise, sit down, make yourself comfortabl behind your wall and make your combat rolls. I find that this method works for our group really well as a standing speaker has more "influance" over the other players AND it still allows for the DM to make secret rolls.
Kursk 01-21-06, 09:52 PM	what rolls do you think a DM should roll behind the screen and which ones should he roll in front? Our groups DM has recently resolved to make EVERY roll behind the screen, including attack rolls, damage rolls and NPC saving throws. fair? fun? Whatever rolls the DM wants to make behind the screen is "fair". There is no reason a player should see any roll the DM makes. If you truely understand "meta-gaming" this will make sense. If you don't it probably doesn't. EOT