Post/Author/DateTime	Post
On A Stick 10-19-04, 02:03 PM	So, here is the situation. My group consists of 5 players (inc myself). My group of companions (all PC's) is level 8 right now, with the exception of myself. My character is level 4. How did this happen? Simple. I started late (1 level behind as ruled by the DM), and have died twice (-1 level each time). Putting me now, 3 months later, at level 4. Anyone else see the issue that this causes. Being so much lower than the rest of the group, what is an average challenge for them is now an insane challenge for me. Resulting in a greater chance of me dieing yet again, and losing even more levels. My question is, what should I do? The DM runs an extremely tough campaign and ruleset. I've inquired about making a new character, but the DM will only allow new characters to enter the game at your current character level -2. That would mean starting a new character would put me at level 2! Ack. Do any of you have experience dealing with situations like this an DM's who are less than willing to bend rules to make up for situations such as the above? From my understanding, its the DM's job to "make adjustments needed" in order to keep people in the party within a level or 2 of each other. At the mere notion of this, the DM of my group sneers in disgust as if tampering with xp or my characters level through any means other than normal XP gain is just outrageous. Frustrated -Stick
Dara Wayland 10-19-04, 02:10 PM	Would your DM be willing to run your character through a few side quests, to help you catch up to the rest of the group? That's the easiest solution I can think of. He doesn't sound very reasonable, unfortunately, but that's the best option I can think of off the top of my head.
Board_Rider 10-19-04, 02:22 PM	What is your class? I would reccomend not being on the front lines for awhile and be more of a "helper". Do this for awhile to get the experience back...you'll catch up.
kliate 10-19-04, 02:31 PM	IIRC, the DMG includes this sort of situation in the "Recommended times you should allow a player to make a new character" list. If you really like your character, then definately discuss any other methods you can reap in some bonus Exp - especially since you'll remain behind for quite some time, even with the extra experience you get from encounters.
On A Stick 10-19-04, 02:38 PM	What is your class? I would reccomend not being on the front lines for awhile and be more of a "helper". Do this for awhile to get the experience back...you'll catch up. Level 4 Dwarf Fighter. So if im not on the front lines, im basically worthless to the group (leeching xp more or less). As far as catching up in xp, from what I remember reading in the DMG, after you fall behind in level by more than 3 levels, you will NEVER catch up in xp enough to restore balance, despite the slightly larger amount of xp you gain from encounters. The DMG suggests 1 or 2 levels is fine, but 4 is too many to ever hope to catch up. the DMG includes this sort of situation in the "Recommended times you should allow a player to make a new character" list. As I stated, making a new character IS an option, but the DM will only let me do so at my current characters level -2. Which means any new character I will make will start at level 2 which is even worse than level 4.
Galen McGown 10-19-04, 03:08 PM	We have this very problem right now in our gaming group. Our characters now range from 18th level (sorcerer) to 10th level (monk). As none of us are really powergaming types, we don't mind having other characters much stronger than us - its kind of fun to roleplay. The problem is, not matter how little you care about power, nobody likes to die. And the low level folks die more and get progessively lower level while the high level members just live on and get more powerful. This vicious cycle of being raise deaded into obolescence is one of the major problems with 3e and 3.5 - I would rather just lose the con point. Back in 2e, we would always start new characters at level 1, even going into a level 10 party. With the way the old XP progression worked (which I am admittedly a little nostalgic for) it was easy to catch up as long as the DM allowed you to level up multiple times at a shot. The new system allows great freedom of multiclassing, but makes catching up much slower than it once was. But there is a solution unique to 3e, if you DM feels your pain and wants to help! Templates! Templates increase your effective level, and should give you enough abilities to increase your survivability. For our party, we are visiting a homebrew plane of existence at the moment, where being "modified" as such would be somewhat common (though our evil DM has promised ways to pervert whatever templates the low level people add on - which is fun, anyway). For your case, there may be an in-game reason to tack on a template, with a little DM assistance. Chances are good that one of his plot arcs would actually fit quite nicely with you being templated into something. A werewolf, wereboar or wererat (+2 LA afflicted, + 1-2 HD of animal) is an easy one to attach that doesn't require any rule fudging (though you need high wisdom to make control shape checks and need to make sure that your DM will waive alignment restriction or allow you to become a "natural" lycanthrope). There are other undead ones that can be inflicted (I here Ghostwalk was kinda crappy, but maybe you can use the ghost template instead of being raised next death). Or devise some ritual to become half-dragon, half-fiend, etc. I was one of those level 10 guys too, next to our 15th level TWF 3.5 ranger (his nickname is "he blender"). However, a recent bout with th Sun card on the Deck of Many Things has corrected the situation for me. Anyway, good luck - I feel your pain!
Kittencaboodle 10-19-04, 03:56 PM	Level 4 Dwarf Fighter. So if im not on the front lines, im basically worthless to the group (leeching xp more or less). So leech XP. If your DM isn't willing to see the pitfalls of having a lower level dwarven fighter in the front lines, then have the dwarven fighter guard the rear.
Stormbright 10-19-04, 03:59 PM	Look, as I see it, everyone's game would be significantly improved if you had a few more levels. So, why not go the DM by yourself or as a group and suggest that he bump you a couple of levels. Unless he's sadistic, he's probably tired of having to balance the adventures so as not to overly challenge you while underchallenge the rest. That or he hasn't noticed that the adventures are overchallenging for you. Unless you've been playing unwisely and dying in situations where it wasn't necessary, he should probably see the usefulness of this and grant the request. It could be role-played or just a tweak of the character sheet. I would do it if I were the DM in that situation, and it makes a lot more sense than introducing a new character mid-game.
Phrennzy 10-19-04, 04:17 PM	Dwarf fighter level 4 with level 8 guys? Grab a crossbow and hang in the rear next to the casters. Offer to be the caster's body guard, to intercept anyone running up to engage in hand to hand with him. Grab the biggest, best sheild and best armor you can to do so. Maybe he can buff you a little too in return. Perhaps other characters can be appealed to "lend" you a magic item each, to buff your AC and weapons up a notch. Some +2 bolts in a +2 crossbow would be nice. Using 3.5 rules, you will gain XP faster than everyone else for being lower level. Good luck. Or, lead them into an attack of level draining undead - a bunch of wights, like a hundred, so that they can end up losing 4 levels too.
eRaz0r 10-19-04, 04:26 PM	Sounds like your problem is the DM. His blind adherence to his "Current level -2" rule is just going to eliminate players from his game. What happens if you do this a couple of times? Bang! You're 0th level. Ain't that fun? I understand that he wants to discourage just ditching characters when things get too hard, but this is a game, and everyone has to have some fun. He should allow more XP for out of combat activities and award bonus XP for individual efforts if he expects your character to ever catch up. He also needs to use the differential XP chart which awards XP on combat-difficulty per level. If he doesn't you'll never have a hope of catching up, and therefore, no reason to work hard to do so.
Arrowhen 10-19-04, 05:43 PM	Start a new character at level 2. Then start another new character at level 0. Then start another new character. This one will begin with negative levels, so it will be instantly slain. The next night you'll rise as a wight and you can level drain everyone else in the party.
Sensei Gith 10-19-04, 06:45 PM	Get rid of the level -2 rule. Start at the average party level next time.
Cold Napalm 10-19-04, 06:59 PM	1) tell your DM he is a moronic jack ass. Tell him to come visit here for a verbal abusing to get some common sense in him. 2) Find a DM who is not a moronic jack ass to play with. The lower levels gaining levels only works IF the DM uses individual exp vs average party. Offical 3.5 rule is individual exp but I have yet to meet a 3.5 DM in my area that uses that rule...despite the fact that it is one the best fix to 3.0 core rule set EVER. I've used it in my games since 3.0 just to make sure that deaths weren't that bad as you caught up faster.
eRaz0r 10-19-04, 07:00 PM	Even "average Party Level -1 (or 2)" is sufficient to put a discouragement against rapid character-substitution without being overly restrictive and still give the new PC a chance to catch up (and average party level is usually just fine).
danielinthewolvesden 10-19-04, 07:27 PM	1) tell your DM he is a moronic jack ass. Tell him to come visit here for a verbal abusing to get some common sense in him. Well, not by the evidence on hand, and I doubt it. :rolleyes: It does appear he is being a bit rigid and unfair. Let's not start name calling, eh? :nonono: :sad: I do assume the DM is playing by the rules in the DMG, which means you're getting 2X the eps everyone else is? (Unless your DM is a moron, and is using Cold Napalms rule, in which case- you're dead. Quit now) :uh-huh: But you have 3 choices 1. Get your DM to come here, read the posts and explain to us. 2. Hide out. Leech eps. Explain to the other PLAYERS (not PC's, PLAYERS!) why you are doing it. 3. Try another game. I have new players start out at the base xps of the lowest level in the party (which is never more than one level apart) BUT with starting loot (see pg 135 DMG) one level lower. Seems to work, not much whining.
Finarin Panjoro 10-19-04, 07:30 PM	I'd definitely talk to your DM about how unfair this is and the fact that it isn't fun for you anymore. It's perfectly reasonable for your character to retire because the party is facing threats that are beyond his ability to survive. He really should allow you to make a new PC at the average party level or at worst party level -1. This won't help your current situation, but to keep this from happening in my campaign I instituted a variant rule. Death never causes level loss. When raised you gain a special permanent negative level. This negative level can be removed with a wish or a miracle, but you also lose one every time you level up. So in your case you might be running around with two negative levels, but the next time you leveled up you'd only have one, and the next time after that you'd be at full strength. Good luck.
Cold Napalm 10-19-04, 07:38 PM	No no not my rules...good old lazy DM average party level rules that for some unknown reason has gotten so dang popular. I personally hate it. As for name calling...lets see...level 4 character with a level 8 party with him not willing to do a dang thing about it...and in fact will make things worse? MORON. Even with individual exp MORON. The level 4 player for the next some 28+ encounter will get to stay in the back and twiddle his thumb. In fact as soon as the second death happened...if not the first, the DM should have stepped in. Either make a way to get true resed, or go well that was a wash, make a new character please at level 7...6 at the LOWEST. If a player was in a situation like that in my game, I would seek out a way to make it work with the player. The fact that the DM was appoarched with the problem and his reply was tough noogie, your solution will get you a level 2 character lends me to once again say moron. If he gave the player an option and the player is not telling us...well...then I'll take it all back. Oh and smack on a stick for leaving something so important out.
the dmg 10-19-04, 10:13 PM	Would your DM be willing to run your character through a few side quests, to help you catch up to the rest of the group? I agree with this. If everybody is at level 8, then this is really the best option that you can do. Like another has suggested, maybe you can try to convince your DM to have your new character be at around level 6. That way, you are still behind but can hold your own on the challenges that awaits your group.
Naeron 10-20-04, 06:53 AM	No no not my rules...good old lazy DM average party level rules that for some unknown reason has gotten so dang popular. I personally hate it. As for name calling...lets see...level 4 character with a level 8 party with him not willing to do a dang thing about it...and in fact will make things worse? MORON. Even with individual exp MORON. The level 4 player for the next some 28+ encounter will get to stay in the back and twiddle his thumb. In fact as soon as the second death happened...if not the first, the DM should have stepped in. Either make a way to get true resed, or go well that was a wash, make a new character please at level 7...6 at the LOWEST. If a player was in a situation like that in my game, I would seek out a way to make it work with the player. The fact that the DM was appoarched with the problem and his reply was tough noogie, your solution will get you a level 2 character lends me to once again say moron. If he gave the player an option and the player is not telling us...well...then I'll take it all back. Oh and smack on a stick for leaving something so important out. I disagree with this, if a PC dies the player should have to live with the consequences, once they are raised they lose a level. If the PC is lost completely they create a new, very low level PC. If the lower level PC hangs back and doesn't do much in the tough fights then that is Good Roleplaying. They should level up quickly and a good DM will put in encounters with opponents that are much lower CR than the party which give good xp to the low level PC. The fact is that the orc raiding parties don't suddenly disappear when the PC's hit 8th level, you just don't usually include them as they provide no value for the party. A good DM will also throw in sidequests or pickup games where the low level PC can play a starring role (and it also allows the other players to start developing backup characters in case they lose their main ones as well).
Phrennzy 10-20-04, 09:50 AM	Start a new character at level 2. Then start another new character at level 0. Then start another new character. This one will begin with negative levels, so it will be instantly slain. The next night you'll rise as a wight and you can level drain everyone else in the party. An elegant solution to hoist the DM on his own petard.
NateNate 10-20-04, 10:55 AM	My original suggestion was a bit extreme, and definately not the best course of action. No DM should care more about being in control and getting his way than whether the players have fun. You should discuss this with each of the other players away from the game, let them know how you feel about the situation and see what they think. Then talk to your DM one-on-one and tell him that his "level -2" rule is causing a problem, and suggest that it isn't as great a rule as he originally thought. Ask him to change the rule, and make sure to let him know that you'll be able to have a lot more fun at his game if he does.
HidroliX 10-20-04, 11:02 AM	When you die and you have no penalty from dieing.. I think the "fear" to die is a need... My opinion! :)
Arbitrary Aardvark 10-20-04, 01:46 PM	I disagree with this, if a PC dies the player should have to live with the consequences, once they are raised they lose a level. If the PC is lost completely they create a new, very low level PC. If the lower level PC hangs back and doesn't do much in the tough fights then that is Good Roleplaying. They should level up quickly and a good DM will put in encounters with opponents that are much lower CR than the party which give good xp to the low level PC. The fact is that the orc raiding parties don't suddenly disappear when the PC's hit 8th level, you just don't usually include them as they provide no value for the party. A good DM will also throw in sidequests or pickup games where the low level PC can play a starring role (and it also allows the other players to start developing backup characters in case they lose their main ones as well). If the DM bases xp on average character level, or gives a lot of flat xp bonuses, the lower level character won't catch up that quickly. (I ran the maths once, if you are four levels behind at 8th, you end up 2 levels behind at 18th.) Sidequests are unfair to the other players, who want to play their main characters. Pickup games (extra sessions) are unfair to people who have lives. (I left one campaign because I kept falling further and further behind because the GM kept scheduling additional sessions which I couldn't make.)
White rabbit 10-20-04, 04:03 PM	If the lower level PC hangs back and doesn't do much in the tough fights then that is Good Roleplaying. That's not good roleplaying, that's being a torch-bearer. And no, holding the lantern while the rest of the party fights is not participating, and does not earn a share of the experience. I also agree totally with Arbitrary Aardvark. Side-quests can eat up alot of everybody's time even though only one person benefits from the time spent. And not everybody has the time for a pick up game.
eRaz0r 10-20-04, 04:05 PM	Which XP method are you using ? If it's "Uniform XP by Difficulty" that gives a different result from "Individual XP by CR", which should allow you to catch up faster.
wdarkk 10-20-04, 04:44 PM	Heh. My DM uses "uniform XP by session". But yeah, unless you have a lot of noncombat encounters I'd recommend always using "individual XP by CR". There's a reason they changed that for 3.5.
jnrhayz 10-20-04, 04:54 PM	I don't think most people understand how important a near same level party is in 3rd edition. Most of the people I have met who are strict about XP are from 2nd edition. The problem being that this is 3rd edition. The first thing I tell anyone from 2nd edition about to upgrade to 3rd edition is how important being close in level is. When they play, they understand because they know what to look for. When I DM, I have removed experience completely. I have not had a wizard who focuses on crafting, so I haven't had to face that, but I have thought about it. Probably using your level's experience one the table to determine how much xp you can use or alternative of having to find proper material components. I have gone off subject, but as the DM, your job is to make it fun. If the player isn't having fun then you aren't doing your job. I am not saying to coddle one player to the detriment of the others, but if the player is low enough level to be a cohort, then he should have the choice to make a new guy or continue playing his guy. It should be the players choice. Yes, that makes it hard on the DM, but DMing isn't easy and no one said it was. Good Luck, talk to the DM and if all else fails, quit.
starfire311 10-20-04, 05:11 PM	In my current game the rules are simple for creating a new character you start at 1st level. If you have a character that dies it is upto you if you want the party to try and bring you back. This is not a problem because if you do xp by the RAW lower level characters will catch up fast. We just started the game we had 4 characters at level 3 and 1 at level 2. the level 2 guy and 1 of the level 3 guys died. The level 2 guy decided to make a new character rather than us trying to get him raised and the level 3 guy decided to make a new character as well, because it would be too much money to raise him. So this left us with 3 level 3s and 2 level 1s. A few sessions later we had 2 new people join, this gave us 7 characters whose were levels 3 at level 5, 1 level 4, 1 level 3(he missed a session so he fell behind the other guy that started over), and 2 at level 1, after 2 more sessions the levels are now 4 level 5s, 1 level 4, and the 2 newbies are level 3. Remember that lower level characters get more xp and the need few xp to advance, this together means very fast advancement. Even if you give out the same to everyone the lower level guys will catch up. the xp to go from level 5 to level 11 is 45000 and the xp to go from level 1 to 10 is 45000, so even giving out the same number of xp to both characters the 1st level will eventually catch up.... both of these characters will be 11th level at the same time. The one that started at 5th level be at 11th level with 55000 xp gained since 5th and the one that started at 1st level will be 11th level with 55000 gained since 1st.
starfire311 10-20-04, 05:19 PM	When I DM, I have removed experience completely. I have not had a wizard who focuses on crafting, so I haven't had to face that, but I have thought about it. Probably using your level's experience one the table to determine how much xp you can use or alternative of having to find proper material components. how do you do this... in every game that I have played the party wizard has made several items, at least scrolls and wands if not a full blown artificer. I think the craft feats are essential to filling your role in a party if you are a wizard... without scrolls and wands you run out of firepower too fast and as for clerics they need craft wands and brew potion to get the full use out of their character. Fortunatly we allow the cleric to work with the wizard to craft wands. The cleric supplies the spells the wizard supplies the feat. also what about spells that cost xp?
Shard of Suzail 10-20-04, 10:08 PM	What a strange old situation to be in. What interests me is that only your character seems to have regularly died. Now, for an in game perspective, if that character were in my group, we would have "fired" him. After all, he keeps dieing and costing the party money to get him up again. As such, he clearly is not heroic material, especially as noone else has died. Lets assume then, that the character died because he was a great hero and saved everyone time and again. Thus, they want him in the party. Now, the suggestions about grabbing bows and helping from the rear seem a good idea. After all, you keep dieing and they do not. Thus, they seem perfectly able to hold their front line and keep alive. Sit back for a while and let them do the hard work and take the risks, you have earned a break. It's true that, as a fighter, you may expect to be up there at the front. However, what if you just die again? Similarly, what do a few levels give a fighter other than the ability to hit a bit better and a few feats? If this was a wizard character, then i could see being low levelled as being a real crimp on enjoyment. As such though, a fighter with a bow at level 4 is not so massively removed from a fighter with a sword in the front lines. Dice are rolled, he hits, damage is dealt. There isnt much to it. True the higher level fighter is up there dishing it out, but when he does that, *this one gets killed*. I think this is natures way of telling you to pick up another class and try a new role. Perhaps move toward a ranger, who has a few more options than a fighter but remains much the same. *** Sadly though, there is the issue of the gm stopping new characters by taking two levels. Part of me says, well, call his bluff and play a level two wizard. Be useless and *make him appreciate that fact*. It would at least be a laugh for a few sessions no? I, for one, would go for it. Long term though, you are an unusal case. It is rare to have one person die so often and not see the party suffering casualties also. I do, however, see a lot of fighters these days suffering from this. They dish it out, but all too often cant take it. A good few add to this by doing stupid things like wading deep into fights where noone can help them and they get surrounded and flanked to death. Even so, fighters and their low AC, which cant compete to BAB progression, are dieing like flies now. I`m a great fan of taking new characters on at the current level of the party. The new character tends to lose out in gear and that keeps a balance (though you have to limit the starting gear to say, two magic items only, of power level according to the party). Thus new characters have some stuff, but dont have the rings and little things that give a character an edge. Also, starting late and thus already being at a disadvantage cant have helped. I think you really are now entitled to getting a new character at a level equal to the others. I dont think any of them should or would complain. Though i still think you should play the level 2 character for a bit, just to hit the point home and make the gm look like a lemon.
Naeron 10-21-04, 11:15 AM	If the DM bases xp on average character level, or gives a lot of flat xp bonuses, the lower level character won't catch up that quickly. (I ran the maths once, if you are four levels behind at 8th, you end up 2 levels behind at 18th.) In which case the DM is not following the rules, a fact that I didn't feel I had to reiterate as so many people have pointed it out, the lower level PC should always be getting more XP from a given encounter than the higher level ones. And even flat xp bonuses for task should be CR based so that the lower level PC gets a higher bonus. If completing a mission is worth 1000xp to a bunch of 18th level PC's then is should be worth much more for the 12th level PC who also completed the mission. Sidequests are unfair to the other players, who want to play their main characters. Pickup games (extra sessions) are unfair to people who have lives. (I left one campaign because I kept falling further and further behind because the GM kept scheduling additional sessions which I couldn't make.) Sidequests don't have to be unfair to the other PC's with good planning, while the high level PC's are crafting items the low level PC can pick up some xp with a small sidequest for example. And pickup games as I suggested them would not cause anyone to fall behind in the main campaign because the participants would be low level PC's playing catchup, the other players would be playing backup PC's. Having multiple characters in a campaign is ideal in situations where not everyone can make every session, the main PC's adventure together and when the group can't all attend other PC's get played. This can be used to allow lower level PC's to catch up but most importantly it gives ready-made PC's with a real history who will probably have already met some of the high level party members which makes introducing them when a main PC permanently dies much easier and more logical. In the 20 year old campaign I am playing in most of the players have about 5 PC's who adventure in different parties. Depending on who is turning up a low or mid level party can usually be assembled containing PC's who already have adventured with at least some of the other party members. When we can all get together we play the high level PC's. This removes the need to generate high level PC's to replace a dead PC, which is always annoying. If I've spent years getting my fighter to 12th level I would feel aggrieved if someone gets given a free 12th level PC without working for it.
Arrowhen 10-21-04, 12:26 PM	If I've spent years getting my fighter to 12th level I would feel aggrieved if someone gets given a free 12th level PC without working for it. Yeah, but that's by the standards of previous editions when leveling actually meant something. These days you can hit 12th level in a long weekend. I had a player in a recent game remark, "Man, we suck. We must be the first party ever not to level up in our first session!" :rolleyes: Yeah, sorry you had to spend five whole hours at first level.
Shard of Suzail 10-21-04, 12:42 PM	I see a lot of folks being resentful of "people not earning their levels". Fair enough, you may have played a character for many years, but does the fact that someone else starts at that level make all that work wasted? I would say no. After all, the point is to live out a roleplay life and the newcomer has lost out. When you roleplay, having the "its a race to the end" attitude is a dangerous thing. It makes you envious of other players or resentful of their power level and character abilities or items. I dont mind if someone joins my group and has levels *above* my character. If they are powerful, great, it means i`m less likely to die (so long as they arent so above my level that the game breaks that is). They are my allies, not my competitors. I look back to the games that I have played, working my way up to my current level and think "I enjoyed playing that". I wouldnt look back and think "Its all worthless" just because someone joins the party at my level, as powerful as I am. Enjoy the journey, dont run the race.
White rabbit 10-21-04, 03:06 PM	Having multiple characters in a campaign is ideal in situations where not everyone can make every session, the main PC's adventure together and when the group can't all attend other PC's get played. This can be used to allow lower level PC's to catch up but most importantly it gives ready-made PC's with a real history who will probably have already met some of the high level party members which makes introducing them when a main PC permanently dies much easier and more logical. In the 20 year old campaign I am playing in most of the players have about 5 PC's who adventure in different parties. Depending on who is turning up a low or mid level party can usually be assembled containing PC's who already have adventured with at least some of the other party members. When we can all get together we play the high level PC's. This removes the need to generate high level PC's to replace a dead PC, which is always annoying. If I've spent years getting my fighter to 12th level I would feel aggrieved if someone gets given a free 12th level PC without working for it. So you're saying that your DM has to keep track of 5 different parties, and who has done what with which group of people? :confused: Isn't that a bit much?
wdarkk 10-21-04, 03:09 PM	Yeah, but that's by the standards of previous editions when leveling actually meant something. These days you can hit 12th level in a long weekend. I had a player in a recent game remark, "Man, we suck. We must be the first party ever not to level up in our first session!" :rolleyes: Yeah, sorry you had to spend five whole hours at first level. Heh. Our group takes 2 months per level or so. It's all in how much combat you have, and how you award noncombat XP.
Aluroon 10-21-04, 05:03 PM	Stick, I understand where your coming from, imagon having to play a 4th level wizard in a party with a 7th level drow wizard...only 5 levels of differance :banghead: . Your dm's rule regarding creating new characters, is all well and good in some cases (I have a player in my group that has never played the same character for more then one session...it drives me nuts), but in your case, he needs to make an execption. Point out to him the differance between yourself, and any other melee characters in the group (get a copy of there character sheet if you can to prove the point). I would have more convincing arguments, if you could tell me how your character died (both times) while the rest of the party lived. You might also point out that uniform Exp for an adventure was one of the problums that 3rd edition most clearly pointed out, and has sense been fixed. I hope you get this resolved. Maybe you should direct your dm to this board so we can help "enlighten" him as to a few facts, or you could print out some of the responses on in this thread and show them to him, point out that more then one person strongly disagrees with his metheds. Aluroon
Son of Khoron 10-21-04, 08:16 PM	How did this happen? Simple. I started late (1 level behind as ruled by the DM), and have died twice (-1 level each time). Putting me now, 3 months later, at level 4. DM makes the rules in his/her game. However, to lose levels because of death is a bit 'harsh' IMO. Replacing a dead PC for a new one is something I would say "start at one level lower than the party average." Most players in my game have agreed it to be OK. To be raised/resurrected is a second chance in life, a loss of a level seems more like punishment than a learning experience. Death is common in the occupation of being an adventurer and a learning experience for the reborned PC. I would think the loss of treasure (if the party is a bit greedy), no xp for 'kills' done by the party after your death, and perhaps a loss of a CON point seems enough trauma and loss for a PC. My question is, what should I do? The DM runs an extremely tough campaign and ruleset. I've inquired about making a new character, but the DM will only allow new characters to enter the game at your current character level -2. That would mean starting a new character would put me at level 2! Ack. So...if the party is massacred against CR 8 encounters, raised/resurrected by a lone survivor, massacred again, raised/resurrected by a lucky soul, then it is CR 8 monsters versus level 6 party members? If the adventure is going to be tough, DM could do a little less 'penalty on the levels' to keep 'the party versus the monsters' fair, or provide more chances of survival.
Cold Napalm 10-21-04, 09:48 PM	I have been in a game where you come in at level one with all new characters...but you retired at as soon as you hit level 5. Why? Because once you reach level five, level one characters have 0% chance of survival. One fireball and their toast. So unless you limit the level of you game like that, having new people come in at level 1 is DUMB. Unless you fudge thing royal, it's moronic that somebody that weak is hanging out with hardened vets when they don't have to. And honestly if my level 1 character is hanging around your level 10 character and doing fine and getting levels...umm yeah my belief in the realism of your world just went down the toilet...not to mention rule breaking as umm you don't get ANY exp for a cr 10 encounter at level 1. Also while the current exp offical method is individual exp, ALL dm other then me in my area use average party. It's quite normal in fact to run into this...kinda like full hp at level 1 in 2ed. It's so common in fact, in some circles, it's not even considered a house rule...like full hp at 1st level in 2ed. Finally there is the FUN factor. I'm sorry but if I'm gonna have to stay in the back and plink at something every now and then because of the DM's stupid rule that makes me 4+ levels lower then the party, then I will either be an ass to amuse myself or just not bother to show up and do something actually fun. Being useless is NOT FUN and being 4 level lower is being useless.
Aluroon 10-22-04, 03:10 PM	Finally there is the FUN factor. I'm sorry but if I'm gonna have to stay in the back and plink at something every now and then because of the DM's stupid rule that makes me 4+ levels lower then the party, then I will either be an ass to amuse myself or just not bother to show up and do something actually fun. Being useless is NOT FUN and being 4 level lower is being useless. Well said. I agree that at this point your fairly screwed. Your dm's refusal to compromise is killing you. Try once more, or just quit, he's not a dm, he's an idiot. Aluroon
davypi 11-08-04, 09:39 PM	I hate to bump an old thread - but I found this doing a forum search and didn't see anybody post the obvious solution to the problem: just keep dying. (Oh my god! They killed Kenny!) What is the DM going to do when your level one character dies? You can't create a level 0 character. (Well, you can, but what happens when s/he dies too?) Your character is going to turn into a party liablity. Eventually the DM is going to have to make a concession or kick you out of the group. And if you get kicked, so what? It doesn't sound like you're enjoying being there now as it is anyway. Davy
Naeron 11-09-04, 05:48 AM	So you're saying that your DM has to keep track of 5 different parties, and who has done what with which group of people? :confused: Isn't that a bit much? The DM just has to keep track of the campaign and what's happening in the campiagn world. The players are perfectly capable of keeping track of which PC's are where, its also a more "realistic" campaign model in that the party doesn't magically always stick together when they have slightly different goals and aims. The campaign has always had more going on than the PCs were actually involved in. Its the same way that I've always run my campiagns. As an example the high level characters are now operating over 2 different continents. One small group of high and mid level PC's are investigating the probems in the high elven kingdoms, one group are trying to set up a colony and mage school in the wilderness for the Kenku who have had to flee a war, a third is investigating a marsh that is home to a Necromancer and trying to work whats going on there while the fourth is trying to organise a war against a repressive regime while hunting for ancient artifacts.
mean_liar 11-09-04, 10:29 AM	Is your DM using the v3.5 XP rules? You should be getting substantially more XP than anyone else. See, XP is supposed to be calculated for each individual in the party. What this means is that in a party of level 8s with a level 4, the level 8s will be getting some amount X, and you should be getting some amount roughly equivalent to 2x. The DMG has the specific rules on how to calculate the XP. Combined with the fact that you need substantially less to level, I would think that your situation should be temporary at best.