Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rpg_addict 07-15-07, 11:32 PM	Another one of the players in my group says that he can have a tiger as a familiar. This makes him way too powerful in mine and the other players' opinion, so we looked it up in the phb and it says that a familiar is a magical beast that resembles a small animal. Well when we showed him that he said that his character did the ritual when the tiger was a kitten and it has grown since then, I think thats a load of crap and he should be forced to get a new familiar especially since he got something that make the tiger invisible so he doesn't need to worry about getting it up ladders, through trap doors, and other obstacles that it wouldn't be able to do in real life, but as soon as we go into combat a tiger suddenly appears and kills the monsters. Now you might be saying that he must be a huge asset to the group because you can go up against bigger monsters and get more experiance, but it's really annoying when he kills everything in the 1st round and we don't get to do anything. Just as a couple notes 1.He has a problem of always being the big powerful one. 2.He seems to have a new more powerful character every week. 3.Were only 4th level so I don't see his tiger getting that old in the time it takes to go from level 1 to 4. 4.It took me and the rest of the group about a month to go up to 4th, his character with the tiger is his newest so was made at 4th level to match the group. 5.The only reason I'm actually bothering to ask on this one is that this seems like a character that he will stick with. So heres my question with the rules set down in the book can he have this familiar and if it can't be decided by the book can I get an official verdict from someone in wizards of the coast, in fact that would be preferable. Thanks for the help.
ultimateconjurer 07-15-07, 11:38 PM	That is crap. The tiger should be an Improved Familiar if it is to be a familiar at all. Trust me I've looked into Improved Familiars and a tiger is DEFINATELY to powerful for a normal familiar. And what's up with the "Invisible" thing? Not even normal familiars can do that. It sounds like this guy would be better off as a Druid with an Animal Companion if you ask me. Of course even then he'd have to wait to get a Tiger and by that point it should be balanced to have such a pet...well...as balanced as the Druid can get anyway.
Zaver 07-15-07, 11:39 PM	Tell him it's not on the list of familiars so he doesn't get it. Why is the DM even allowing it? RAW doesn't support it and if the DM doesn't want it a player really can't do much about it.
TMX 07-15-07, 11:39 PM	He could get a tiger, but only through the improved familiar feat, and probably not by 4th level. Familiars also do not develop beyond the growth scheme specified in the text of the PHB. Invisibility is possible, if he has the spell, or has bought an item that confers invisibility on the wielder (or has a permanant familiar pouch spell cast on a bag to conceal it).
Turel 07-16-07, 12:10 AM	theres no way you can have a Tiger familar at 4th level, hell druids only get it at 12 or 13 ish and thats as a companion, let alone an "Invisible @ will/std action" one!! Let me repeat: Theres no way you can have a tiger familiar at 4th level. That said, of course a DM can always override. :)
Salla 07-16-07, 12:16 AM	Your player is a munchkin ... at outright cheater. No, he does not get a Tiger. He can get a familiar from the PHB List, and at a higher level he can take Improved Familiar to take a creature from that list. If he balks, throw the dirty cheatin' munchkin out.
bob_the_great 07-16-07, 12:29 AM	sure, he can have a tiger. Just use the stat block for a cat and call it a tiger. he gets the flavor, but it sucks in combat (as familiars are supposed to). The DM really should go over every inch of this guy's character. if he's so blatantly cheating when it comes to familiars he's probably doing the same elsewhere.
Allarian 07-16-07, 01:29 AM	I'm in favor of giving the familiar the stats of a cat, in fact it can be a baby tiger for all anyone cares, I just picture your party confronting some evil wizard in his tower: Party: Stop vile fiend. Wizard: Fools I have powers you only can dream of. Att- *looks down at the baby big cat playing with his robes* how inconsiderate don't you reed the signs No Pets allowed I'm allergic you know, Lacky fetch the Kleenex of dispair. Just get out, I'm not going to take over the world this week, do you know how hard it is to gloat over the bodies of fallen heros when your congested. *walks off muttering* Party: Just to be clear we Do get XP for this right. Anyway a tiger has around six HD and a level adjustment if I remember correctly he really can't have a familiar that is more powerfull than he is. The explanation is stupid to, He's like what 20 in game there is no way that he has an adult tiger as his familiar not even with the improved familiar feat. also what did he do to give is what amounts to flight and premenant invisiblity. One final thing you really need to talk with your DM 'cause stuff like this just shouldn't be happening if your DM is on the ball.
Hochiu 07-16-07, 01:53 AM	Show him the pages in the players handbook again, reiterate that by the Rules As Written he is unable to do as he says. And then slap him. Hard. Five times across the face. End with a sucker punch for good measure.
Archangel_Tyrael 07-16-07, 02:31 AM	Well when we showed him that he said that his character did the ritual when the tiger was a kitten and it has grown since then, Waiter, I'll take the metagaming with a side of ********, please. I think thats a load of crap and he should be forced to get a new familiar especially since he got something that make the tiger invisible so he doesn't need to worry about getting it up ladders, through trap doors, and other obstacles that it wouldn't be able to do in real life, but as soon as we go into combat a tiger suddenly appears and kills the monsters. Metagaming and just...wrong. How would an invisible tiger be able to climb ladders better than a visible one? I would actually give penalties for climb checks since it can't see where it's putting its paws. Plus, it doesn't weigh any less than it did before...this is just...wrong. I'd let him have it if he took Improved Familiar and only after he has at least 90 hit points. A familiar has half of the master's hit points and the 6HD tiger out of the Monster Manual has 45 hit points. By this point the tiger would not be extremely overpowered like he is right now.
Kouk 07-16-07, 11:50 AM	This is not a player issue, this is a DM issue.
BW0222 07-16-07, 01:46 PM	rpg_addict, Another one of the players in my group says that he can have a tiger as a familiar. ... Just tell him "No." Well when we showed him that he said that his character did the ritual when ... Just tell him "No such ritual exists." Give your player three choices. 1. Correct his character according to the rules in the PHB. 2. Play a pregenerated character which you will provide., or 3. Find a group more akin to his play style. So heres my question with the rules set down in the book can he have this familiar and if it can't be decided by the book can I get an official verdict from someone in wizards of the coast, in fact that would be preferable. Of course not. Druids don't get normal tigers until 7th-level. Even then, it is overpowered and has severe limitations on size and areas one can take them.
Kamin_Majere 07-16-07, 02:46 PM	A baby tiger would rock as a familiar. All cute and tigery with all the power of a grown house cat. But still the cuteness factor does have much win. As to the rest of it, yeah he's pretty much cheating. And he knows it because hes actually invented a story to try to justify it. I suggest Cluebat:D
archerpwr 07-16-07, 04:44 PM	A baby tiger would rock as a familiar. All cute and tigery with all the power of a grown house cat. But still the cuteness factor does have much win. I agree so much. The next wizard I make will have a baby tiger as it's familiar. The granted power is +3 to diplomacy checks. The bonus type is cuteness.
Magnus029 07-16-07, 05:05 PM	I'd let him have it if he took Improved Familiar and only after he has at least 90 hit points. A familiar has half of the master's hit points and the 6HD tiger out of the Monster Manual has 45 hit points. By this point the tiger would not be extremely overpowered like he is right now. LMMFAO A wizard with 90HP's thats F***ing great! Side note, I believe in the Complete Warrior there is a list of more powerful combat oriented familiars intened for multiclass wizards, the list has a BAB requirement to obtain them. That might give some idea to when its acceptable to have this type of familiar.
archerpwr 07-16-07, 05:09 PM	LMMFAO A wizard with 90HP's thats F***ing great! Around level 12 I could see a wizard having that much hp. 4 + 5*12 (60) + 2.5*11 (28) = 92. Base con of 16 (dwarf) and a +4 amulet.
Archangel_Tyrael 07-16-07, 05:32 PM	LMMFAO A wizard with 90HP's thats F***ing great! :rolleyes: Around level 12 I could see a wizard having that much hp. 4 + 5*12 (60) + 2.5*11 (28) = 92. Base con of 16 (dwarf) and a +4 amulet. Thank you.
Phrennzy 07-16-07, 07:21 PM	his character did the ritual when the tiger was a kitten and it has grown since then My head just exploded.
Jegol 07-16-07, 07:28 PM	My head just exploded. LOL this player seems to making up pretty pathetic excuses attempting to keep his overpowered tiger, does he realize how stupid that ritual thing sounds?
Fatalis_902 07-16-07, 07:32 PM	Yay! I get to make the suggestion of Cryosilver's Handy Guide to Dealing with the Steve in Your D&D Game Guide! Link's in my sig. Folow the guide, and he will be cured. Oh yes, you should tell the DM to fix this before you use the Guide. If he refuses, hammer-gun the DM and follow the guide for the player.
dknight100 07-16-07, 07:40 PM	Its been established that this is just horrific levels of wrong. Hold old is this player? my money has to be on 10. I mean damn...
Caelic 07-16-07, 08:48 PM	10? I dunno...how old was Calvin? ;)
Anodai 07-16-07, 09:25 PM	10? I dunno...how old was Calvin? ;) Six
Archangel_Tyrael 07-16-07, 09:43 PM	If he refuses, hammer-gun the DM and follow the guide for the player. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/smileys/shoothammer.gif There you go. :)
Kamin_Majere 07-16-07, 10:17 PM	10? I dunno...how old was Calvin? ;) Yes!:D I now deem from this moment on my new tiger cub familiar shall be called Hobbs... Hobbs the terrible, the cuteness incarnate, lord of the evolutionary trait that makes kittens and baby's be wanted by those of adult age ... and i shall nick name him schnookums:D
Ayra 07-17-07, 03:50 AM	I don't blame the player if the DM doesn't put his foot down and disallows it. Whenever I do something risky, I inform my DM of all the possible consequences and everything, but I also make up a story that might justify it, although I prefer to stick to RAW. Most of my 'risky' questions are if I can adopt a certain template. Anyway, most of the people here have answered correctly already. He shouldn't be having a tiger. What irks me though is one particular part where you said that the tiger could climb ladders, go through trap doors and other obstacles because he was invisible. I don't get why the tiger would be able to do that. Keep in mind that invisibility merely gives a +20 bonus to hide checks when moving and a +40 bonus to hide checks when standing still. It does nothing more than that. Additionally if the player has an item that permanently makes the tiger invisible at level 4, there's something seriously wrong with the DM, or he's combining some other familiar abilities (i.e. the imp familiar's invisibility) with his tiger (which is cheating). The conclusion is that you should definitely take away his tiger, you should have never even allowed it in the first place. Check the rest of his character as well, because he seems to have buffed his tiger way too much as well. Additionally, limit his new familiar list to what is supplied in the players handbook, because he obviously can't be trusted.
mearrin69 07-17-07, 01:20 PM	I got the impression that the OP was saying that it stays behind invisibly (and undetectable by enemies) instead of going up the ladders and such. But, when combat starts, the player 'forgets' that his kitty is downstairs and it suddenly happens to be with them in the melee. Not sure if I read it right though. Yeah, the player is being ______ (fill in the blank with doltish, boorish, muchkinish or whatever term you desire) but your DM is really the one to blame here. He can let the character have a tarrasque if he wants but, really, he shouldn't because he has blown any party balance (not to mention the CR/XP system). M
dknight100 07-17-07, 05:32 PM	but what if he got the tarrasque while it was a baby, and it just happens to be fully grown now...
Allarian 07-18-07, 03:33 AM	but what if he got the tarrasque while it was a baby, and it just happens to be fully grown now... Well that would of course be legitimate (but only if you preformed the uber secret ritual that only you and the dm know) and remember to have it disapear before fights and suddenly spring out of nowhere for you to ride, thats all part of having a familiar, and if your level 1 party whines about your l33t familiar they can all go to **** I mean of course you're the best character in the party, everyone else sucks. I mean sucked they all left the game 'cuz they weren't "having fun", I mean you wisely explained how they didn't matter and how the game was really all about your human wizard with 67 Int and 50 Dex and Con who can cast 9th level spells by the way, not that they ever need to most oponents just bow to you and join your ever growing army of awsome. You also pointed out that next session you get crowned king of everything by the gods, whom will then bow to your awsomeness and give you all there powers, but they didn't seem interested, it's all right you finally got the XP you needed to hit level 2 and they all missed out on that. :P
Ayra 07-18-07, 04:36 AM	Well that would of course be legitimate (but only if you preformed the uber secret ritual that only you and the dm know) and remember to have it disapear before fights and suddenly spring out of nowhere for you to ride, thats all part of having a familiar, and if your level 1 party whines about your l33t familiar they can all go to **** I mean of course you're the best character in the party, everyone else sucks. I mean sucked they all left the game 'cuz they weren't "having fun", I mean you wisely explained how they didn't matter and how the game was really all about your human wizard with 67 Int and 50 Dex and Con who can cast 9th level spells by the way, not that they ever need to most oponents just bow to you and join your ever growing army of awsome. You also pointed out that next session you get crowned king of everything by the gods, whom will then bow to your awsomeness and give you all there powers, but they didn't seem interested, it's all right you finally got the XP you needed to hit level 2 and they all missed out on that. :P I think I've heard of this ritual. It has a name: "Cheating". It's practiced in secrecy and grants great power.
Zurai 07-18-07, 08:52 PM	Man, I appreciate that this guy is being a munchkin, but every single one of you people mentioning the ritual needs to re-read the Familiars entry. A sorcerer can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. Voila, ritual. No, it doesn't let you acquire a tiger without the appropriate Improved Familiar feat and pre-requisites, but there is a ritual associated with taking a familiar.
nightside_samurai 07-18-07, 10:02 PM	Yeah but everyone knows that if you write it on your sheet at first level you don't have to pay for it. Just like a spellbook and a holy symbol. :D
dknight100 07-18-07, 10:47 PM	NOTE TO SELF: WRITE VORPAL SWORD ON INVENTORY NEXT 1ST LEVEL CHARACTER
rpg_addict 07-19-07, 01:11 AM	to Fatalis_902 your guide doesn't work for for reasons 1.Already tried diplomacy 2.He doesn't have a sister 3.I'm his brother 4.He's the biggest and strongest member of the group, in real life To all those speculating age he's 18 The ritual is the process that it talks about in the book that takes 24 hours and costs 100gp, it binds an animal to the sorcerer as a familiar The invisibility thing he got out of a book called Spells and Spellcraft, which I have looked through and is made for 3/3.5 edition (I'm not certain if it is official rules), in that book it has rules for spending experiance to get special powers for your familiar The benefit to the invisibility is that since it's invisible we don't think about it and forget it's there so the dm doesn't have it make any checks since even he forgets about and thus the player doesn't need to worry about dealing with his giant tiger until combat
Allarian 07-19-07, 02:01 AM	Yeah I know but I was refering to the ability to somehow gain a 6HD creature as your familiar in a ritual. also how would he as a child of 10 years of age or less know the ritual to get a familiar and where would the child get the 100 gp, which is a years worth of very good meals for your average person.
dknight100 07-19-07, 04:07 AM	so its a cloak of metagame invisibility? lol
Fatalis_902 07-19-07, 08:47 AM	to Fatalis_902 your guide doesn't work for for reasons 1.Already tried diplomacy 2.He doesn't have a sister 3.I'm his brother 4.He's the biggest and strongest member of the group, in real life To all those speculating age he's 18 Not my guide, Cryosilver created it. I just spread it because I find it humorous. 1. If you already tried diplomacy, then skip that step. Move on. 2. Does he have a girlfriend? She is an applicable substitute. 3. See #2. 4. Did you see the chair you put Steve in? He's not going anywhere until he's cured.
High Octane 07-19-07, 01:38 PM	Another one of the players in my group says that he can have a tiger as a familiar. Ask how. Edit: Read up. It stops being a familiar after it reaches a size that would give it more than 1 hit die. Possibly eat the wizard in his sleep.
dknight100 07-19-07, 03:49 PM	Getting a tiger is doable with the Improved Familiar feat from Complete Warrior (though i'm not sure what its prereqs would be), for example, with that feat my mage has a hippogriff. Of course, that requires being at leaster CL 7 and BA +7.
Nathreet 07-19-07, 04:20 PM	so its a cloak of metagame invisibility? lol I smell an OOTS reference coming up...
High Octane 07-19-07, 04:30 PM	Getting a tiger is doable with the Improved Familiar feat from Complete Warrior (though i'm not sure what its prereqs would be), for example, with that feat my mage has a hippogriff. Of course, that requires being at leaster CL 7 and BA +7. Assuming the Tiger would be attainable with the 7 CL and BAB, which is not a stretch considering Winter Wolf is a CR 5 and attainable at that level, you still have to attain a BAB of 7 and a CL of 7. Earliest you can accomplish this is level 9, through wizard5/fighter1/Eldritch Knight3 or some similar build (I doubt it could get any faster than that.) At level 9, even with the +3 natural armor and improved evasion from familiar benefits (since only wizard levels qualify unless you take the obtain familiar feat just for the stacking levels), it still is at best a CR 5 creature at level 9. Compare that to a druid who can get a Tiger at level 8, and by level 10 it surpasses the wizard's tiger in power (+2 HD +2 Natural Armor, +1 dex +1 str, and yes both stats are odd at base so it does make a difference, and evasion). The Druid's animal companion is hardly considered the most powerful aspect of the druid normally (that title goes to the wild shape ability and the primary caster deal) Not to mention the wizard is dumping at least 1 feat into this AND not receiving the familiar benefits (+2 reflex for weasels, +2 fort for rats, etc) and he risks losing a great deal if his familiar dies due to it being on the front lines. What am I getting at? If he follows the rules, HE WILL NOT UNBALANCE THE GAME! Don't let him ******** you into breaking them.
archerpwr 07-19-07, 04:36 PM	Earliest you can accomplish this is level 9, through wizard5/fighter1/Eldritch Knight3 or some similar build (I doubt it could get any faster than that.) That has a BAB of 6. Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 2 works though. Still level 9.
dknight100 07-19-07, 04:47 PM	yea, my mage just got the CL 7 BA 7 at 10 with Duskblade 1 Wizard 5 Eldritch Knight 4. I've dropped 2 levels of wizard (seeing as EK gets me additional caster levels in all but 1 level) but i quite like my increased BA and that i can wear light armour - don't need shields though, i prefer casting Shield so i have a hand free for wands, metamagic rods etc. But yea, done properly, having a better familiar isn't overpowering, when done right.
High Octane 07-19-07, 04:49 PM	That has a BAB of 6. Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 2 works though. Still level 9. Oh, thanks. Point still stands.