Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Telas 05-25-04, 02:49 PM	I've played Chaotic Good players forever (since AD&D v1.0 came out), and I've always used the "individual vs. society" view of Chaos vs. Law. Since getting back into the games with v3.5, I've noticed that scant attention is paid to Chaotic Good characters. For instance: if a wizard calls an improved familiar, you can get any alignment but Chaotic Good. Most alignment-based feats require Lawful Good (arguable, but still...), most Chaotic Good deities are connected to a race (Elf) or a strange portfolio.... On top of that, Good is defined first and foremost as "altruistic". Without getting into an extended discussion of the nature of good vs. evil, this seems to be the definition of Lawful Good, valuing society above the individual. Anyway, is it just me, or is Chaotic Good a bad choice in the game these days? Telas, donning his Robe of Flame Protection.
Ramius_Mordale 05-25-04, 03:50 PM	*Cancels fireball changes up to lightning bolt of holy smiting* LOL, just being silly man. As for CG, its not necessary to have the familiar with the same alignment as yours. Its not based off of anything in perticular, unless of course, you have the leadership but I think its only like a -1 or -2 to your leadership score (I think don't qoute me on that) and its your cohort not your familiar. And yes the designers have a lawful stand point to things cause they are making the rules to keep the balance. But they also say feel free to change the rules and such as you feel fit. They are merely just laying down the foundation for you to rp with so you don't have to come up with every rule and what weighs what and so on. I'd say CG is still like that, actually I believe it still says CG is one that puts the individual first before society. And being good isn't altruistic its just that you have a concious of your actions to not go over board and hurt someone because of your free spirited actions. And although you don't necessarily believe in people being oppressed by laws you still believe everyone should look out for one another and a government should protect its people but not put them under its boot if you will. I'd say if you like CG and want a CG familiar just like switch up the alignment to that. Though I believe in Forgotten Realms, they have a familiar that is CG alignment. It's a flying catlike creature I believe. Well hope that helps you out, and heres two silver for the journey. *Drops in mug*
lantzer 05-25-04, 04:03 PM	What's wrong with CG? A chaotic good person is still defined as a genuinely good person who thinks everyone should be lord of their own life. Altruism is independent of Law or Chaos. Altruism is about making lots of people happy. Chaotic Altruism is about helping people in your own way, at your own speed. Lawful Altruism is about working with others, in an organised fashion, to help others.
Lincoln Hills 05-25-04, 04:25 PM	Look at it this way, Telas: it's not that they're short-changing Chaotic Good - it's that Chaotic Good is such a POPULAR alignment that they're starting to bribe people to play ANY other alignment! ;)
primemover003 05-25-04, 05:11 PM	The Flying cat is called a Tressym for those who want to know...:teach:
Ramius_Mordale 05-25-04, 07:30 PM	Originally posted by primemover003 The Flying cat is called a Tressym for those who want to know...:teach: Thanks primemover003, yeah thats the familiar I was talking about.:tiphat: :bow:
Telas 05-26-04, 02:50 AM	Originally posted by Lincoln Hills Look at it this way, Telas: it's not that they're short-changing Chaotic Good - it's that Chaotic Good is such a POPULAR alignment that they're starting to bribe people to play ANY other alignment! ;) I like your attitude. :D So do y'all really think that CG is getting shortchanged a bit? It may be culture clash, shifting from AD&D 1.0 to D&D 3.5, or it may just be that I don't think that "altruism = good". And part of me wonders how an Objectivist would fare in D&D.... But that's definite flame-bait, and should be left off any bulletin board. Telas
Salla 05-26-04, 10:11 AM	While some may debate the truth of the matter ... going off the more flamboyant theatrical versions of the character, Robin Hood would be Chaotic Good. The laws were unfair, and he acted against the laws and acted dishonorably (he did rob people) to accomplish good things ... trying to prevent people from being abused by a tyrant. (Assuming the person of Hood actually existed, I doubt things were quite so cheery, but as I said, I'm going off the Errol Flynn version of the character. Or maybe the Daffy Duck version. YOIKS, AND AWAY!)
Ogre Mage 05-26-04, 06:27 PM	I think CG is actually a very popular alignment because while the character is heroic, there is still some "wiggle room." When confronted with the mayor who secretly performs human sacrifices but passes himself off as an honest citizen, the LG character must work within the law and dutifully try to uncover evidence of the crimes so the mayor can be imprisoned and go to trial. The CG character is more likely to just take justice into his own hands.
Tlartanor 05-26-04, 08:11 PM	Just for curiosity Telas, what would you personnaly define as "good"? How do you envision "Goodness"? I think it would help to understand your position more clearly Good day to you
Edymnion 05-26-04, 08:49 PM	Best breakdown of Law/Chaos Axis that I've come up with: Lawful: Actively tries to expand the law. Neutral: Follows the law because its the law. No desire to spread it, or restrict it. Chaotic: Breaks the law whenever they see fit. Been spending a lot of time lately pouring over alignments, and I've found that I've mislabled several of my characters, calling them Chaotic Good when I've actually been playing them Neutral Good.
Telas 05-26-04, 08:57 PM	I define good and evil by how one views other people. The Golden Rule applies here: Treat others as you would be treated. To a good person, other people are people, to be valued and treated the way he would want to be. This perception is pretty much universal among all societies in our history. An evil person views other people as "things". Either tools to use or obstacles to overcome. Terry Pratchett voices this opinion a lot in his Diskworld books. Altruism (IMHO) goes beyond the Golden Rule. It is dedication to others at the detriment to one's self. Some of the ideals of Good written in Book of Exhalted Deeds fit this definition (Vow of Poverty, etc). Now, it could be argued that altruism is Good, but what is Chaotic Good - Individualistic Altruism? The formula breaks down. Of course, if you don't use the "individualism = good" formula, that could work, but then Law vs. Chaos is degraded into "predictable vs. unpredictable", like so many newbies tend to think. (Chaos = unpredictability in most non-gamer's minds.) Anyway, in today's terms (modern American society), I'd define Libertarians as Chaotic Good, Catholics as Lawful Good, most people as Neutral Good, hardline religion as Lawful Neutral, self-centered people as Chaotic Neutral, the Mafia as Lawful Evil, and a crack addict as Chaotic Evil (although without the addiction he could be anything). ***** These are my opinions. You have every right in the world to differ with them. You also have every right in the world to ignore them. You won't change my opinion, and I won't change yours, so a flamewar will do nothing but make us both needlessly angry. Telas
Serene Selene 05-26-04, 11:38 PM	Kind of curious as to why you consider a crack addict to be Chaotic Evil. I don't necissarily see having an addiction during someone Evil, or specifically Chaotic.
crazysamaritan 05-26-04, 11:51 PM	Think of it this way: Exalted = Altruism Good = Respect others Neutral = treats others as they are treated Evil = Treats others badly before they are. Treats them well if it benefits them. Vile = Convinces others they are being helped, and sucks out their souls :twitch: Okay, maybe Vile's description isn't that good. Don't have that book.
Telas 05-27-04, 01:06 AM	Originally posted by Serene Selene Kind of curious as to why you consider a crack addict to be Chaotic Evil. I don't necissarily see having an addiction during someone Evil, or specifically Chaotic. I'm referring to someone deep in the addiction. He's thinking only of himself, and willing to harm others for his fix. A crack (coke, heroin, name the incredibly addictive drug, including alcohol for some) addict will steal from his family, kill, whatever for the fix. If the addiction is somewhat under control, that's different. In the grip of the addiction, the addict will think of nothing but getting more. (I know, it's stereotypical... but I was in a hurry.) To me, that's Chaotic Evil. I guess a better example would be a sociopath (Antisocial Personality Disorder, in the new PC jargon). Telas
crazysamaritan 05-27-04, 01:16 AM	An incredibly intelligent sociopath (granted they are all unusually intelligent, but I mean moreso) will see that acting good will make things even easier for them.
Umar 05-31-04, 06:29 PM	I've always viewed CG individuals as characters who tend to use their emotions to make their decisions for them,whereas a LG tends to think first,and feel later. A CG tends to be more demonstrative,whereas a LG may be more subdued(but no less fervent in their convictions). Umar,my handle's namesake,is a CG Sacred Exorcist--an unlikely alignment for such a PrC,until you consider the fact that she's a Tiefling. Raised by monks,she learned when,and when not,to give her demonic heritage free reign. She is mischevious,libidinous(when appropriate),and prone to fury against evil,but her chaotic nature also generates great compassion and generosity as would befit a Lathanderite. Were she not "the 'T'-word" as she calls herself,she'd probably be NG,or LG,and might not have the lively nature she does...but she'd still kick undead and demon-butt as before(she'd just have less fun doing it,though). The capacity for great passion makes the Bard an ideal CG alignment character;my thoughts for what they're worth.
hekker 06-01-04, 11:02 AM	To me: G = helping other people N = helping yourself E = harming other people (even if it doesn't benefit you) L = following law regardless of the consequenses N = Deciding for yourself what's the best thing (or most evil thing) to do, wheter it is according to the law or not C = actively against law, not followin the law even if following the law would be a better thing (or more evil, for evil characters) to do. Then, @ topic starter if your CG char is not altruistic, than how is he good? I'd say a chaotic char who isn't altruistic (or at least helping other people) is not really good, he would be a CN character in my hones opinion.
Ferrix 06-01-04, 04:55 PM	note: laws here can also refer to personal laws or strictures one places on themselves, and does not always refer to the laws of the land. the alignments are vague and loose, i'd say that even a lawful good character can still reject the laws of a land if to them lawful involves a disciplined mind rather than a disciplinary state.
Telas 06-01-04, 05:27 PM	I can see that, but my personal view is that a Lawful character would rather work with the system, or change the system, than to work against it. A good example is the stereotypical cop drama where the cop knows the mayor is corrupt, but works within the rules to prove it. A Chaotic character would not actively seek to work against the system, but would probably take some satisfaction at doing so when necessary. (Of course, if the system allows for maximum freedom, why would he want to work against it?) Example: the "rogue cop" movies that "Last Action Hero" spoofed so well. Telas
Goblin-Crunch Cerial 06-02-04, 01:18 PM	I never did understand the fascination towards Chaotic... Its so much easier to play Lawful Good. So every time that I find myself in one of those "gray moral areas" my DM loves to put us through, my character starts to drool and stare blankly at the rogue. DM: The Lizard People Village is finished. You've taken care of the warriors and the surrounding area is safe from their attack. ME: Well looks like our work here is done. Let us bind the wounds of our injured and be off. DM: WAIT! ME: Huh? DM: The lizard women and children... in just two short generations the village will be back to full strength. ME: But dea's be wimin and chidrenz (my characters begins to twitch and makes himself comfortable for the fetal position) CHAOTIC WIZARD: Now that's done... Hey DM is lizard children ears one of my spell components?
trapspringer 06-02-04, 02:31 PM	It can be a tough one to play. A CG character is misunderstood and outcast. Think Batman. Think Disneys Alladin. Think of a cat. These are all varying chaotic levels. Good in order from greatest to least, chaos equally present in all of them.
Telas 06-02-04, 03:33 PM	I don't think "outcast" is the right word, at least for me. I prefer "individualist". They get along with others, but they don't necessarily subscribe to the overriding social and legal framework. This can indeed make life difficult, depending on the overall social structure. Batman is an excellent example. He fits in or doesn't to a large degree because of how the writer structures the society. In the regimented social scene of the Dark Knight books, he's a bad guy. In the more freedom-loving comic books (at least back in the day when I read them), he was a good guy. As with all philosophical questions, the answer largely boils down to "it depends". Telas
Votan 06-02-04, 04:47 PM	Originally posted by Serene Selene Kind of curious as to why you consider a crack addict to be Chaotic Evil. I don't necissarily see having an addiction during someone Evil, or specifically Chaotic. It isn't lawful to experiment with an illegal drug and some usage is required to form the addiction. Most addicts are likely CN if the drug they are addicted to is illegal. A loose attitude towards the law comes with the territory. But a smoker could be LG quite easily. Heck, back when it was legal, the fictional character Sherlock Holmes was a regular cocaine user and I'd put him somewhere around neutral or lawful good.