Fast & Loose vs. Structured & Slow [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fast & Loose vs. Structured & Slow [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KoalaKnight
06-07-06, 01:53 PM I was just wondering how many of you prefer the "Fast & Loose" version of 3.5 (Using the majority of the rules, but not bothering to rule monger on an issue, just make something up that fits the scenario) vs. the play by the book, following every rule to the letter. Oh.. and.. why? <-- I'm at work and bored. heh.
Derren S.
06-07-06, 02:43 PM Just one thing. Following the rules doesn't have to be slow. You just have to know them.
TarlSS
06-07-06, 02:46 PM Yeah. If you're following the rules slowly you don't know them well enough.
Wood
06-07-06, 03:35 PM Yeah. If you're following the rules slowly you don't know them well enough.

rubbish... :rolleyes:

The rules always slow things down. What Koala is talking about (correct me if I'm wrong) is how many of us always adhere to the rules and layouts and movement restrictions and whatever else and listen to endless descriptions of numbers and equations and game mechanics that completely kill the drama of the game.

To answer your question dude, most people stick to the numbers. they like dungeon diagrams and models. They like miniatures and rulebooks and endless tables of meaningless numbers. They love that ****.

However, there are some of us that know that there are times when the flow of the game supercedes the rules, and even if the rules get completely trampled; who cares? The way I look at it so long as the characters are either A: Laughing uproariously, B: on the edge of their seats holding their breath, C: Cheering over the triumphant victory, or glorious death, of one of the PCs... so long as one of those things is being accomplished then I have done my job as a DM.

screw the rules.
erc1971
06-07-06, 05:08 PM Our group is definately the type that follows all the rules.

We currently consist of a DM and 3 players, so the small group size does keep the game from slowing down too much. In addition, we are all very knowledgeable with the rules, so it is not too often we need to stop and look at the book.

Casters using a new spell for the first time. Grappling, Tripping, Overrun, and Bullrush slow us down - we generally don't use them very often, and have to pull out the book to refresh our memory when we do.

The 2 main reasons we do this are. 1) we like the tactics. Getting my rogue lined up with the wizard's Persistant Blade while luring more baddies into the big AOE spell is all part of the fun. 2) Having a character die because you didn't bother to look a rule would be horrible! (Though luckily our DM forgot about a Fire Elemental's extra fire damage with it's slam attacks this last Saturday, and it kept my character alive - so DM missing stuff can be cool :cool: )

Eric
clarkvalentine
06-07-06, 07:14 PM I GM and play fast and loose. If it'll take more than a few seconds to look up we often don't bother if a quick ability or skill check will do the trick well enough.
Dragonsblood
06-07-06, 07:32 PM We follow the rules if we know the rules or we can look them up quickly enough. But if we can't find the rule, whoever's DMing just makes a temporary ruling and we move on. Then a few days later someone will find the rule and we'll know it for next time.

We try to follow the rules because we all like consistancy.
BW0222
06-08-06, 01:52 AM KoalaKnight,

There are really two cases here.

Out of Initative
Here you have a lot of latitude. The pace of your game depends upon the setting, campaign, and encounters you set-up.

An overland horse race is more fast paced than an high-society party. A journey through some dangerous woods being chased by orcs is more fast paced that a information gathering encounter in a bar with a bard. A roudy barbarian bar with a "take turns punching each other until someone drops" game is more fast paced that a high-society luncheon playing some board game.

A campaign plotline with the PCs under a time crunch -- get the antidode before the full moon to save the lord's daughter -- is more fast paced that a plotline where PCs arrive in a city an find a serious of obscure clues leading them to some squabble between feuding merchants.

Rules in fast paced adventures can be stretched to keep the game flow fast paced. Rather than draw out a 1000 yard race course and initiative folks through it, you make opposed ride checks and the winner pulls that number of feet ahead on each of four legs of the race. For the barbarian bar, you can skip the attack roles. etc.

Inside Initiative
Inside intiative is different. There are now real short-cuts nor can one keep the sense of being fast paced. The two are at odds.

A typical combat takes about 40 minutes. Say 30 second per initative, 10 creatures, and 8 rounds of combat. It is hard to make it ever go less that that. In general, only lop-sided combats go a lot quicker. Typically one side being nerfed quicker.

Fudging rules to speed up the combat rarely works. Forcing players into fast decisions rarely works.

For example, a wizard might spend two minutes deciding upon a web spell, aiming it, having the DM make saving throughs, then the slow down on several initatives as they make rolls to get out of it, or decide on alternate actions since they can't see, move, target, etc. folks. However, such a tactic typically mean that the overall combat is shortened in terms of rounds -- since the party can gang-up on folks not in the web and get them out of initative quicker.

Combat goes faster when folks know the rules. Not knowing the rules (and ignoring them) might make that initative go faster, but it rarely makes the combat take less time overall. Honestly, if it takes two minutes for the druid's tiger and an trio of summoned dire wolves to make all their attacks (grapples and trip attempts), that doesn't increase the overall time of a combat since it means that the opponents won't have be around to have initatives in rounds 5 or 6.

Well done tactics, spells, feats, etc. can work wonders reducing the overall length of combat -- but only if you follow the rules. It is often worth spending a 20 seconds looking up the darkness spell if it effectly means that the overall combat is likely to end a couple of rounds earlier that not getting its affect correct.

IMO, lack of following combat rules adds to the overall time of the combat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KoalaKnight 06-07-06, 01:53 PM	I was just wondering how many of you prefer the "Fast & Loose" version of 3.5 (Using the majority of the rules, but not bothering to rule monger on an issue, just make something up that fits the scenario) vs. the play by the book, following every rule to the letter. Oh.. and.. why? <-- I'm at work and bored. heh.
Derren S. 06-07-06, 02:43 PM	Just one thing. Following the rules doesn't have to be slow. You just have to know them.
TarlSS 06-07-06, 02:46 PM	Yeah. If you're following the rules slowly you don't know them well enough.
Wood 06-07-06, 03:35 PM	Yeah. If you're following the rules slowly you don't know them well enough. rubbish... :rolleyes: The rules always slow things down. What Koala is talking about (correct me if I'm wrong) is how many of us always adhere to the rules and layouts and movement restrictions and whatever else and listen to endless descriptions of numbers and equations and game mechanics that completely kill the drama of the game. To answer your question dude, most people stick to the numbers. they like dungeon diagrams and models. They like miniatures and rulebooks and endless tables of meaningless numbers. They love that ****. However, there are some of us that know that there are times when the flow of the game supercedes the rules, and even if the rules get completely trampled; who cares? The way I look at it so long as the characters are either A: Laughing uproariously, B: on the edge of their seats holding their breath, C: Cheering over the triumphant victory, or glorious death, of one of the PCs... so long as one of those things is being accomplished then I have done my job as a DM. screw the rules.
erc1971 06-07-06, 05:08 PM	Our group is definately the type that follows all the rules. We currently consist of a DM and 3 players, so the small group size does keep the game from slowing down too much. In addition, we are all very knowledgeable with the rules, so it is not too often we need to stop and look at the book. Casters using a new spell for the first time. Grappling, Tripping, Overrun, and Bullrush slow us down - we generally don't use them very often, and have to pull out the book to refresh our memory when we do. The 2 main reasons we do this are. 1) we like the tactics. Getting my rogue lined up with the wizard's Persistant Blade while luring more baddies into the big AOE spell is all part of the fun. 2) Having a character die because you didn't bother to look a rule would be horrible! (Though luckily our DM forgot about a Fire Elemental's extra fire damage with it's slam attacks this last Saturday, and it kept my character alive - so DM missing stuff can be cool :cool: ) Eric
clarkvalentine 06-07-06, 07:14 PM	I GM and play fast and loose. If it'll take more than a few seconds to look up we often don't bother if a quick ability or skill check will do the trick well enough.
Dragonsblood 06-07-06, 07:32 PM	We follow the rules if we know the rules or we can look them up quickly enough. But if we can't find the rule, whoever's DMing just makes a temporary ruling and we move on. Then a few days later someone will find the rule and we'll know it for next time. We try to follow the rules because we all like consistancy.
BW0222 06-08-06, 01:52 AM	KoalaKnight, There are really two cases here. Out of Initative Here you have a lot of latitude. The pace of your game depends upon the setting, campaign, and encounters you set-up. An overland horse race is more fast paced than an high-society party. A journey through some dangerous woods being chased by orcs is more fast paced that a information gathering encounter in a bar with a bard. A roudy barbarian bar with a "take turns punching each other until someone drops" game is more fast paced that a high-society luncheon playing some board game. A campaign plotline with the PCs under a time crunch -- get the antidode before the full moon to save the lord's daughter -- is more fast paced that a plotline where PCs arrive in a city an find a serious of obscure clues leading them to some squabble between feuding merchants. Rules in fast paced adventures can be stretched to keep the game flow fast paced. Rather than draw out a 1000 yard race course and initiative folks through it, you make opposed ride checks and the winner pulls that number of feet ahead on each of four legs of the race. For the barbarian bar, you can skip the attack roles. etc. Inside Initiative Inside intiative is different. There are now real short-cuts nor can one keep the sense of being fast paced. The two are at odds. A typical combat takes about 40 minutes. Say 30 second per initative, 10 creatures, and 8 rounds of combat. It is hard to make it ever go less that that. In general, only lop-sided combats go a lot quicker. Typically one side being nerfed quicker. Fudging rules to speed up the combat rarely works. Forcing players into fast decisions rarely works. For example, a wizard might spend two minutes deciding upon a web spell, aiming it, having the DM make saving throughs, then the slow down on several initatives as they make rolls to get out of it, or decide on alternate actions since they can't see, move, target, etc. folks. However, such a tactic typically mean that the overall combat is shortened in terms of rounds -- since the party can gang-up on folks not in the web and get them out of initative quicker. Combat goes faster when folks know the rules. Not knowing the rules (and ignoring them) might make that initative go faster, but it rarely makes the combat take less time overall. Honestly, if it takes two minutes for the druid's tiger and an trio of summoned dire wolves to make all their attacks (grapples and trip attempts), that doesn't increase the overall time of a combat since it means that the opponents won't have be around to have initatives in rounds 5 or 6. Well done tactics, spells, feats, etc. can work wonders reducing the overall length of combat -- but only if you follow the rules. It is often worth spending a 20 seconds looking up the darkness spell if it effectly means that the overall combat is likely to end a couple of rounds earlier that not getting its affect correct. IMO, lack of following combat rules adds to the overall time of the combat.