Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Draco Strang 02-15-05, 10:42 PM	Hey guys, So, we play Eberron on Saturday, and I DM FR on Sunday. Recently I was running a drow wizard, we got to 5th level. The DM "didn't like the way our characters had met up" so decided to TPK us against that 15th level half-dragon. Believe me, it was crap. Anyway, we're starting a new Eberron adventure up, and I'm the cleric. We start at 3rd level, and I'm human. This leaves me with 3 feats to choose. Problem is, I don't know what 3 to take. Any help would be great. P.S.-My domains are Artifice and Fire, as the cleric worships Onater. Hope this helps.
Lord_Naerik 02-16-05, 03:12 AM	First off, you are playing Ebberon. Second off, your DM is a proven player killer. Why bother?
Draco Strang 02-16-05, 03:22 AM	First off, you are playing Ebberon. Second off, your DM is a proven player killer. Why bother? I know, I've lambasted Eberron time and again, and if I actually want to play, then he's the only game in town. Second, he's not a player killer, he's an indecisive weiner. If he didn't like our party concept, he should have spoken up a few sessions ago.
Lord_Naerik 02-16-05, 03:53 AM	Lol, well in that case... Augmented Healing from Complete Divine is a very good choice. Also check out Zen Archery from Complete Warrior (works for ranged touch spells too) In my campaigns at home Cleric players have found Scribe Scroll to be enormously handy, but your mileage may vary.
Kalanth 02-16-05, 06:23 AM	Well, as a player I like Eberron, but this is not a debate on wether the world is worth it or not. I don't remember the book (gonna guess complete divine) and I am at work right now, but I remember a feat that allowed the cleric to use touch spells at range. Plus, there is always the handy dandy Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave. After all, clerics are great in melee as well.
Nom 02-16-05, 08:41 AM	For Eberron, you've forgotten one of the most important pieces of information: your culture. A human from ...? Beyond that, clerics have quite a lot of flexibility. Are you a diplomat? A merchant or politician? A summoner? A buffer? A melee combatant (assume no since you didn't choose War)? A blaster (wizard wannabe ;) )? Religiously, do you favour Fire or Artifice? Are you faithful or corrupt? If you favour fire, then you're probably tending towards evocations (consider Spell Focus). If Artifice, then Item Creation feats may fit your character. Mechanically, you need to decide whether you're interested in any of the specialist Eberron classes. As a pure cleric, neither the Dragonmark Heir or Extreme Explorer are likely to be attractive, since they sacrifice caster levels. However, if the idea of a latent but powerful dragonmark appeals to you, you might want to think about the Heir of Siberys prestige class (requirements: 15 ranks in two skills, Heroic Spirit feat). On action points: As a spellcaster, you mainly make "important" d20 checks for saving throws, and so won't get a lot of advantage for d20 boosters. Spontaneous Casting is rather overkill for clerics. You might like to consider Action Surge, which provides a bonus action for 2 points.
Draco Strang 02-16-05, 11:59 AM	For Eberron, you've forgotten one of the most important pieces of information: your culture. A human from ...? Beyond that, clerics have quite a lot of flexibility. Are you a diplomat? A merchant or politician? A summoner? A buffer? A melee combatant (assume no since you didn't choose War)? A blaster (wizard wannabe ;) )? Religiously, do you favour Fire or Artifice? Are you faithful or corrupt? If you favour fire, then you're probably tending towards evocations (consider Spell Focus). If Artifice, then Item Creation feats may fit your character. Mechanically, you need to decide whether you're interested in any of the specialist Eberron classes. As a pure cleric, neither the Dragonmark Heir or Extreme Explorer are likely to be attractive, since they sacrifice caster levels. However, if the idea of a latent but powerful dragonmark appeals to you, you might want to think about the Heir of Siberys prestige class (requirements: 15 ranks in two skills, Heroic Spirit feat). On action points: As a spellcaster, you mainly make "important" d20 checks for saving throws, and so won't get a lot of advantage for d20 boosters. Spontaneous Casting is rather overkill for clerics. You might like to consider Action Surge, which provides a bonus action for 2 points. I'm a human from Sharn, like most everyone else. My alignment is neutral good, so I think that I don't really favor either of my domains and I just wanna help the common populace, but I'd like to say my character is influenced by his Artifice domain to fight for the rights of Warforged (since they're considered 2nd class citizens) and at the same time, the Fire domain says that my character feels a strong bond toward renewal, fire as a both a helpful and harmful tool to be used further the goals of Onater. As for what kind of cleric? Well, we use max hit die and I've got a decent constitution, so paired with some good armor, a shield, and a heavy mace, I wouldn't be afraid to toss him into the mix every so often. Beyond that, I'm not really sure which direction (and feats) my character should take. I've decided on Combat Casting for sure, but any other help would be appreciated.
Nom 02-16-05, 07:53 PM	One option would be to associate yourself with House Cannith, perhaps taking the Least Mark of Making to allow yourself to heal warforged effectively. If you go this route, plan on picking up the Lesser Mark of Making ASAP, either via (at least one level of) the Dragonmark Heir PrC (for which you'll also need Favoured in House and two skills at 7 ranks), or as your level 6 feat. Another Eberron specific feat that might fit is Ecclesiarch, where you gain influence in your church's religious hierarchy. Requires 6 ranks of Knowledge (Religion), and allows Gather Info and Knowledge (local) as class skills, plus +2 to your Leadership score. Of course, anything involving leadership should be checked with your DM first, and it sounds as if your current DM might not be able to handle it well. Clerics and melee combat can be a little tricky. As odd as this may sound, you possibly don't want a heavy shield. With a light shield or buckler, you can hold stuff in your shield hand, namely your weapon when casting spells. With a heavy shield, you'll need to sheath your weapon to cast. It's not always worth the fuss for a mere +1 AC. Alternatively, you may be the "cast first and then run in" sort, in which case the heavy shield is good but Combat Casting might not help much. As always, consider Skill Focus (Concentration) over Combat Casting: only +3 (vs +4) but applies to all Concentration checks. Other feat suggestions: * Heroic spirit: +3 action points might be useful if you're making a lot of attack rolls. * Negotiator: +2 Diplomacy / +2 Sense Motive goes well with the "champion for the warforged" idea. * Martial Weapon Prof (Warhammer): The difference between mace and warhammer is small enought that this (or 1 level of fighter) is probably a waste. * Quickdraw is a very useful melee feat for a spellcaster, to get that weapon back in your hand (or that shield back ready) after spellcasting. * Power Attack / Cleave can be useful, but it's a big feat investment for a 2nd line melee character, especially with a 1-handed weapon. * Spell Focus (Evocation) might come in handy down the track, as might Extend Spell. * Finally, there are always item feats, notably Scribe Scroll (useful now) and Craft Wondrous Item (useful eventually). Though with Eberron's Artificers and Magewrights, it's probably easier to have them CWI for you. As another thought; if you have Craft (armoursmithing, blacksmithing, gemcutting, or sculpting), you can make a Craft check to repair a warforged. It takes 8 hours and heals check - 15 hp. Something to consider.
Vharuck 02-16-05, 10:52 PM	I agree with the above poster: take advantage of the unique dragonmark feats. Either a house feat (definitely go with Cannith for this) or a nice Aberrant (and maybe Heir of Siberys later). If you take the Cannith mark, you may also want to nab Favored in the House to make your DM happy with plot hooks and make your character happy with favors of a powerful house.
Draco Strang 02-16-05, 11:35 PM	So it sounds like Dragonmarks are the way to go. The thing is, I'd like my character to be some sort of a "drifter", if you get me. Not tied to a house, but still fairly important within his church. Would abberrant dragonmarks be ok for this, and if so, What are the best two feats to take for it?
Nom 02-17-05, 02:18 AM	Quick summary of dragonmarks and the mercantile houses: Only the PH races develop dragonmarks. The normal dragonmarks (least, lesser, greater) are each associated with a race and house, which is sort-of like a very very big extended family. Normal dragonmarks follow a pattern, where the least dragonmark - with time and practice - expands into a lesser and maybe even a greater dragonmark. In contrast, aberrant dragonmarks are one-off dragonmarks that exist without regard to house. Finally, the Siberys marks are extremely powerful versions of the normal house marks that rarely manifest, and never on members previously marked with a normal mark. Each dragonmark grants a spell-like ability, normally useable once / day. With a normal mark, additional abilities and uses are gained as the mark improves. Each house is thus a combination of trade guild and mystical order, a collection of people who share a blood and political connection to a dragonmarked line. Even in a house, many members are not dragonmarked. "Perhaps as many as one person in a hundred has a blood connection to one of the twelve houses. Of these thousands, no more than half actually manifest a dragonmark." (ECS, pg 73). Within the house, members are given respect both for their service to the house and for their mark. Typically, the most politically powerful members of a house are not those with the most powerful marks, as devotion to developing your mark interferes with building a power base. Of course, not everyone in a house actually has a blood connection; people may marry in or be inducted for services to the house. Likewise, not everyone with a blood connection actually is an integral part of the house. Outcasts, drifters or bastards are not uncommon, though the houses try to keep track of non-associates with manifest marks, and still regard themselves as having a claim on anyone with house blood in them (of which a mark is incontrovertible evidence). How does all this affect your character? Firstly, I'd take the House Cannith Least Mark of Making (1 feat); it fits your character concept perfectly. However, you then need to decide how you are connected to House Cannith. Obviously, you're not a House Cannith functionary, since you are instead a committed champion in your religious order (yep, if you've got even Clr1, you're impressive, most clerics are Experts or Adepts). Are you an outcast, a result of careless breeding, or simply felt more drawn to the principles of the Sovereign Host than to more mercantile concerns of House Cannith? Perhaps you felt that House Cannith's treatment of the warforged was (and continues to be) less than it could have been, and thus you see yourself as making up for the inadequacies of your bloodline? In some ways I think a variant where you have no hostility to Cannith, but merely have chosen to put Onatar first gives most flexibility. It creates tension between you and Cannith, but not hostility, and makes it easy for your DM to use both Cannith and Onatar as plot hooks for your character. Unless you act against Cannith, they won't try to drag you back with an iron grip, but you'll always be watched. Plot wise, you need to decide whether you character will interact more with Cannith to improve his mark and try to sway some to his thinking on warforged (mechanically, take Favoured in House and a level or two of Dragonmark Heir), or remain on the outside (mechanically, just take Lesser Dragonmark at level 6). Assuming the latter, this uses one 1st level feat (Least Dragonmark of Making), and another at level 6 (Lesser Dragonmark). The greater dragonmark won't add much, so don't worry about it. Then choose your remaining two feats (1 and 3) as discussed in previous posts.
Draco Strang 02-17-05, 04:51 AM	Nom, Thanks a lot. That really helped. My previous Eberron character was a drow wizard from Xen'Drik, as I mentioned before. I did this because I thought it'd be interesting, and was still a little put off by Eberron, so I didn't want to devote a lot of time learning about the intracacies of the House system and such. However, I really like your ideas, and plan to incorporate the Least Mark of Making into my character, and take it from there. The "result of careless breeding" concept is one I really like, and I'm gonna run with it. Appreciate the help guys.
Doctor X 02-19-05, 06:48 PM	I'm the DM he's talking about, and I'd like to defend myself a bit here... Nothing against you, Draco, but if you have problems with my game, I'd really rather you take it up with me than vent your frustration here. You can't expect me to make it more enjoyable for you if you never give me any sort of feedback whatsoever. First of all, I didn't kill the party. That CR 15 half-dragon story is bull crap. I will be restarting the game, however, and I have my reasons, which I have already explained to you. If you remember, I discussed the situation with each player before making up my mind. If you didn't want to restart, then you should have told me that when I asked you. Second of all, I think it's fairly clear that you never wanted to play an Eberron campaign... especially when you boast about how much you've bashed the setting on these boards. I'm not forcing you to play. If you don't want to play, then don't play. If you're not going to give the setting a fair chance (I think it deserves this at the very least), then I'd rather not have you in the game. If you have any more problems, then come talk to me. Honestly, I live about 30 feet from you, and I'm willing to listen.
Doctor X 02-19-05, 06:49 PM	..
Draco Strang 02-19-05, 08:14 PM	Fair chance? I'm the guy that's come to every one of your games, manages my character sheet really well, actually remembers what my attack bonus is (unlike *some* member of our party), and generally tries to help overall. Please remember that I don't take every feat from any book that I can get to boost my AC through the roof, like one of your other players. I'm not the artificer that sits back and buffs the warforged through the roof (which, might I add, is an excellent tactic that you haven't taken steps against) so that he destroys your giant evil monsters with a single frickin swing of his +1 greatsword. That thing's insane, and instead of stepping up the enounters, you moan about how we power through them. Who's the one that split up our combat, and left me and the rogue out in the cold for almost 35 min. real-time while the other 3 players dealt with their foes? That's not a way to manage your players. You don't ignore them and then wonder why they leave. You wonder why I get fidgety and annoyed? Could it have anything to do with the fact that three of the party are gleefully rolling dice and destroying bandits while the other two haven't made an attack or move action in over a half hour, for no reason other than that you don't know how to keep everyone involved who wants to be? Yes, I do bash the setting for the simple fact that I haven't seen it managed properly. I'm sure if I played in a good Eberron campaign, instead of one that stopped and re-started from scratch every three weeks, my opinion of Sharn, the warforged, and action points would improve dramatically. What I see in the ECS and supplements I love. A wide-magic, low-level NPC setting where the players are major figures is a great idea, the concept of living constructs as a player race is cool, and I love how the drow are jungle savages instead of spider-kissing evil-mongers. However, it's your execution that leaves a lot to be desired, and my actual immersion in the world has been kind of lackluster for this fact. I'm sorry that my DM paints our characters into against a wall, telling us what we can and can't do to the letter, and then scraps the entire campaign when we embarass his BBEG within 4 rounds of introduction. Dr X, you are the king of railroading. And yes, the story about being wiped out by the 15th level half dragon was crap, but I knew it would incite a response from the board members, instead of posting "HELP I NEED ADVISE ON MY CHAR!!!" like a bunch of other posts that get 2 responses and then shut down. Sometimes you have to elicit replies instead of sitting idly by. After all, I wanted something that could compete against the guy that's gonna make another warforged and can't remember his pluses to hit and damage, insists on dealing subdual damage every round, and still dominates the party. Can anyone blame me for that? So, if you have a problem with me being disgruntledd with your halting, confused style of DMing, then come talk to me. If you want to see how a good game is run, then be sure to play my FR campaign tomorrow, on schedule, like we normally do, because I'll be running my campaign for a near-record 3rd session in a row, unlike someone. G'day Dr. X.
Jar Head 02-19-05, 08:39 PM	Jesus Christ! Do we have to bicker about this? Look, Steve wanted to restart the campaign because we were half-assing our characters. We had a character min-maxed on defense, a drow who isn't even the style for an Eberron campaign, and a artificer of House Cannith who has the most uncreative backstory ever. The artificer is my fault, of course. The warforged in the group is more Eberron style than all three of us combined. So we started a new campaign. For the second time. The first restart was after the first session, and that was because of some gross mistakes on the character's parts. This is his second time DM'ing, give him a damn break. We have been playing D&D for a TINY bit more than a year now. Read more about Eberron, and understand it better. That's how you come to appreciate the setting. Now I have a character that I haven't half-assed. Come to me and ask for my back-story, so far I have three and a half pages done of this character's history. I'm not trying to brag, but none of us really came up with any decent backround and history for our characters. They had no real reason to be together, except for the artificer and the warforged. Now, with a new campaign and a better understanding of Eberron, we can have some fun. Unless you don't want to. You're a great player, and I'd like you to play. But if you are not wanting to, then don't. I don't like Forgotten Realms as much as I like Eberron, but I still play your game because it is fun. If I did not find it fun, I would stop playing. Everyone just needs to lighten up and realize it is just a game. Have fun. I am. Duffee is. Adam is. Just put thought into this character, find out how he can best fit into Eberron, and play! I am finally understanding more about Eberron, and that is how I came up with my character, Mereph. And our party could use a cool cleric.
Draco Strang 02-19-05, 08:49 PM	Ok everyone, forget about this thread. We all made nice, hugged, and all joined hands around the Tree of Unity (tm). Now, I won't become an instant diehard Eberron for life convert, but I can appreciate the setting and have fun in it. I'm making it a point to have fun, and we're all going to enjoy ourselves, dammit! So, let's kill this thread and all have fun. Play on!
Doctor X 02-20-05, 04:42 AM	Ok everyone, forget about this thread. We all made nice, hugged, and all joined hands around the Tree of Unity (tm). Now, I won't become an instant diehard Eberron for life convert, but I can appreciate the setting and have fun in it. I'm making it a point to have fun, and we're all going to enjoy ourselves, dammit! So, let's kill this thread and all have fun. Play on! That sounds like a good idea to me. By the way, I think this new cleric character of yours kicks ass, and I'm very much looking forward to having him in my game. I was wondering if anyone was going to play a cleric. They are very interesting in Eberron, especially considering that nobody really can prove whether or not the dieties exist. The dragonmark also adds a very distinct touch to the character, and you don't have to be a diehard Eberron fan to know that a dragonmark carried outside of its House is absolutely laced with potential plot hooks... :plotting: That was my main problem with the characters you guys had earlier... It wasn't so much that you were destroying my encounters (killing parties has never been a priority for me). What bothered me was that the Warforged wasn't being played right, the Swashbuckler had no personality at all, the Artificer had jack **** for backstory, and the Drow just didn't fit in. In the hands of a better DM, this probably could have been salvaged, but I'm still learning. One of my weak suits seems to be anticipating the actions of characters, so I need a little bit more help in understanding their motivations. And let's face it, most of that party lacked in this area. I hope I'm not asking too much of you guys, but you know as well as I do that I'm far from the best DM in the world, so any help you can give me is greatly appreciated. That's why I'd rather you tell me when I do something wrong. I won't take offense. I want this game to be as enjoyable as possible, so if I'm ruining it for any of you, I'd really like to know. :)
Zariell 02-20-05, 05:40 PM	Progression through reading this thread: :whatsthis :blink: :bored: :looloo: