Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Morrowner 04-10-06, 10:25 AM	What do you guys do in a group with a character that just absolutely lags behind the others in power? I'm not talking about an average build hanging out with bunch of twinks, I'm talking about substandard choices totally gimping a character. I'm an Archivist and we're battling undead clerics on our way to tackle a Lich(presumably a level 7 wizard, cleric, or sorcerer). We've got a healing machine Cleric, a Goliath fighter, and a well made Ranger with undead as a favored enemy. We also have a crossbow-wielding Rogue who didn't take Rapid Reload and I'm babysitting with my Mace of Odo and Lightning Bolt using Archivist. He isn't contributing jack and he never seems to be hit by anything from mind-boggling luck.
kelvinaw273 04-10-06, 10:45 AM	A rogue in a dungeon full of undead, with no traps or locks? Well, I am not surprised. After scouting, disarming traps and opening locks, sneak attacking is the rogues next big forte, and undead are immune. When you face a living enemy, that one shot from the crossbow will start to count, trust me. And I am not surprised he does not want to waste a feat on rapid reload or get inclose against undead (bad fort saves vs undead powers). Carry the character through this adventure, he'll make up for it in others.
Morrowner 04-10-06, 02:10 PM	Its not just this time, though. I know that being a rogue facing hordes of undead is a bad spot for a guy to be in but he doesn't get in for shots, take chances, aid in combat, or try to flank. Taking a weak weapon and just generally scattershot feat and equipment choices have led to a character thats soup without meat. Not to mention that it seems like the DM is treating him with kid gloves as he is the funniest and best liked character and player. Its just that I'm sick and tired of him not pulling his weight.
Hasmead_Guy 04-10-06, 02:17 PM	That confirms what I suspected. Doesn't look like things are gonna change anytime soon. When a character who is otherwise useless is taken in stride, it's usually because of group politics. Don't know what to do, but I'm sure others share your resentments, or would at empathize. Sorry.
Thomas_Gunn 04-10-06, 02:31 PM	D&D is not WoW, or the schoolyard. You don't pick the "best" players for your team to go down into the dungeon and leave the others behind. If he's having fun playing a rogue with "sub-optimal" feats, then that's the whole purpose of the game. Also, you and the cleric have access to some pretty decent buffing spells, have you asked him if he'd be more willing to help out if you guys gave him a bit of protection? Maybe a bears endurance for some fort saves and hps, or a bulls strength to help him do damage against the undead. Really a rogue fighting undead in melee would be only slightly more capable than your archivist fighting undead in melee, and you're obviously not expecting youself to go do that now are you?
Krelios 04-10-06, 02:39 PM	In order to become a lich, the caster has to be at least 11th level. You're in for a hell of a fight.
pres_man 04-10-06, 02:52 PM	Is he a "social" rogue? Does he focus on social skills? Combat is one thing, but social skills can come in very handle when trying to find out information and getting help from NPCs. Remember rogues have to roles, skill monkey and sneak attack monkey. If you are in a dungeon full of undead/oozes/constructs then of course a rogue is going to lag behind. If you have a problem with him not assisting in combat very much then you should say that in character. "Hey, sneak, get in flanking with tank and assist him in taking down that zombie." "But I can't hurt it." "Yeah but you can assist and flank, fight defensively if you are scared."
Pagan_Rogue 04-10-06, 03:31 PM	It's hard to play with a person who doesn't take full advantage of their character's abilities. We have one in our current game, and she is a pain in the a**. The rogue's best ability is improvision. Our DM, who loves undead, is always throwing us into situations where my rogue can't sneak attack. But I've found there is always more than one way to skin a skeleton. You could give your rogue some ideas (grabbing borrowed or found items to use as a blunt weapon; i.e. pewter water pitcher, wooden torch, chair), or ask him if he is carrying marbles, snap dragon or tanglefoot bags -- it might give him some ideas he hadn't thought of, even it's for his next shopping trip. If not, he can feint, harry, and otherwise irritate and distract the opponents. OR, he can just keep doing what he's doing, and eventually it will get him killed. Sometimes it's worth it to have an entertaining player, even if you have to carry them on your back. It adds flavor, you know? :)
Morrowner 04-10-06, 04:40 PM	I've only played against a Lich one time previous(4 level 11s, and yes it was MONSTER of a fight), haven't gotten to the big baddie Lich yet, we'll probably level up a few times before then. We're at level 8, never used a Lich so didn't know they have to be caster level at least 11. Dangitt, there goes the 'hood. Oh, and I'm offended by that comment about me being power-gaming dick who thinks D & D is World of Warcraft or dodgeball in gym. Thats crap. I'm not asking him to come in with some sick build I'm just asking him to make a somewhat effective character and know enough about the game to use the mechanics properly. In one word, contribute. Which he hasn't. And yeah, I buff the little blighter and have bandaged a few boo boos but I'm getting sick of wasting resources on someone who A, doesn't appreciate, and B won't use it.
Johnny Cache 04-10-06, 07:56 PM	How's your rogue's Use Magic Device skill? there's a first level spell called Grave Strike that lets one sneak attack undead...
shadowfox628 04-10-06, 10:27 PM	How's your rogue's Use Magic Device skill? there's a first level spell called Grave Strike that lets one sneak attack undead... I feel for you, man. However, don't blame the Rogue... I don't like crossbows, with their reload time (even with Rapid Reload). Maybe s/he didn't feeling taking EWP: Longbow/Shortbow. However, you're also not understanding the Rogue. Like said before, no traps, locks, or other things for Rogues to stride in? Hoardes of undead? This is all stuff that makes a Rogue fail in. If you asked me, the DM should have made some tweaks for the Rogue and/or his dungeons. To relate the Rogue you're talking about to the words of Belkar: "Goodbye Paladin, hello Fighter without bonus feats." (referring to an attempt to create an ex-Paladin). The Rogue is made for sneaking, hiding, and gathering information. A DM who plays your enemies intelligently (despite their HP), the flaking Rogue deserves the most attention (not exactly at low levels, but definately at high levels). Rogues shouldn't be in melee combat, though. When made "correctly," they may be hard to hit, but they can be taken down easily. You SHOULD be protecting the Rogue as much as you would protect a spellcaster, but this isn't all of the PC's fault (yeah, he should have taken Rapid Reload). The DM is also part to blame. So, don't pin it totally on the PC.
Mist of Shadows 04-11-06, 01:24 AM	Bs on taking that useless feat. We get crap for feats, so wasting one on rapid reload is silly. As for the rogue he is doing his job delocking things and finding traps. If you are tired of baby sitting don't. Simple as that, you are a character with free will. Ignore him stop standing by him and covering him. Really though just the fact that he is around and causes at least part of the group to have fun is a good thing. On the other note I feel for the having a character in the party that doesn't seem to do that much. I am in a campaign with a gimped fighter/psion right now that doesn't really do much other then as a sort of meat shield. But it's not your job to "Fix" the rogue. Just tell him in character that he isn't pulling his weight.
Morrowner 04-11-06, 08:56 AM	If half your reason for existing is because you're good with a crossbow shouldn't you take some feats for it? I found a weapon in Miniatures Handbook that I'm gonna sugest to him (reloading is a free action, shwing!). And no, I like the guy. I'm not gonna to kill him off with sins of ommission because I want the bugger to take feats that don't suck. I already talked him out of Alertness. Alertness over Rapid Reload! Sweet Virgin Mary in chocolate jimmies and a lobster bib, ALERTNESS. I'm also thinking about taking down some spells like Trueshot Aura and Greater Trueshot Aura from the World of Warcraft d20 RPG. Another +3 to attack and 6 damage with a free-loading crossbow could actually be pretty good. Maybe this is my chance to take him under my wing and pants him to OMG levels.
lycanthrope0 04-11-06, 09:47 AM	alertness is a great feet for alot of reasons even more so if your a skill monkey. if you are playing a skill based charector then any feat tht adds to a skill yhat you use a lot is a great benifit.
celtredleg 04-11-06, 10:03 AM	If half your reason for existing is because you're good with a crossbow shouldn't you take some feats for it? I found a weapon in Miniatures Handbook that I'm gonna sugest to him (reloading is a free action, shwing!). And no, I like the guy. I'm not gonna to kill him off with sins of ommission because I want the bugger to take feats that don't suck. I already talked him out of Alertness. Alertness over Rapid Reload! Sweet Virgin Mary in chocolate jimmies and a lobster bib, ALERTNESS. I'm also thinking about taking down some spells like Trueshot Aura and Greater Trueshot Aura from the World of Warcraft d20 RPG. Another +3 to attack and 6 damage with a free-loading crossbow could actually be pretty good. Maybe this is my chance to take him under my wing and pants him to OMG levels. Are you sure you get what rogues do?? It really sounds like you want a fighter in tights, rather than a rogue. Alertness is outstanding in many games. It can really save a party at times. There is a thread on the DM board right now about a party that could have benifited from the alertness feat. Its not all about combat. Perhaps he has played in more skill oriented games and has built his rogue that way. You claim he picks feats all over the place, but considering your idea about alertness, I wonder if he doesnt have a great rogue build that you just dont understand. Why dont you ask him what he is trying to do, and actually LISTEN to what he says, instead of trying to talk him into playing a 2nd class fighter.
Rowan_Whispercloak 04-11-06, 10:09 AM	Here is something to think about a rogue in a trapless tomb full of undead is like your archivist in the Golem factory or an total area antimagic field, It can really suck to be in a situation were you never are allowed to use all your class features. A note on feats, just because it is your opinion and prehaps the opinion of others in your group that certain feats suck doesn't mean that that opionion is shared with everyone. I will admit that some feats are more useful than others, but that is the nature of hack and slash v.s. more role playing focused games.
Prator_the_Legendary 04-11-06, 10:12 AM	It could be worse. You could have a Druid in the same dungeon whose spell selection is limited strictly to things that require plants, which of course will be few and far between in a dungeon full of negative-energy enemies.
Morrowner 04-11-06, 01:59 PM	Yeah, or he could wear some Eyes of the Eagle. Alertness isn't all its cracked up to be. I'd rather spend another 2500 grand for +3 and a feat, but whatever.
DarkRhystar 04-11-06, 03:34 PM	Take one non-serious player with a good sense of humor that is more about having a good time than killing things... he is the funniest and best liked character and player. Mix with one serious player who feels unhappy because his character is stronger but getting less attention from the group than a weaker one. I'm babysitting with my Mace of Odo and Lightning Bolt using Archivist. What do you get? Jealousy. If this is truly as I suspect, it's going to spoil your game as having the Rogue become a stronger character is only going to make it worse. Jealousy is something that individuals must overcome themselves. If I'm wrong and this is just a simple case of "one player not doing enough" here's my suggestion: Talk to your group as a whole including the Rogue's player. Express your concerns about how it feels that the Rogue hasn't been pulling his weight in your party. See how everyone else feels. If the rest of your group doesn't see a problem then maybe it's just you. If it is just you then you'll have to find a way to deal with this yourself. If the group does see a probem as well then talk it out with the Rogue's player. Find out what the player wants from his character and see if your group (not just you) can help him. As a general aside, something to avoid is telling the player what to do with his character. It's his character and he can take whatever feats or skills he wants. If he takes a feat that you feel won't help him or the group then that's his call. The only character sheet a player should be worried about is his/her own.
Thomas_Gunn 04-11-06, 04:07 PM	A rogue that takes alertness instead of more combat oriented feats sounds like he knows his trade pretty well.
Ut-Napishtim 04-11-06, 04:28 PM	I'm not talking about an average build hanging out with bunch of twinks Let's see... Minatures Handbook, third-party World of Warcraft supplements, Goliath Fighter. Do you guys cherry pick spells and feats from 3E and 3.5 to play a 3.25 game too? Sounds to me like that's exactly what you're talking about. :twocents:
Balor von Balorvitch 04-11-06, 04:29 PM	Dud rapid reload is MUCH worse then Alertness. Just use a bow (unless he has low str) it will help him better with his sneak attacks. Get him a wand of grave strike if you feel that strongly but when that Lich made you the government mule you might need diplomacy :D.
Zero Knight 04-11-06, 04:39 PM	I dont think they are using the Miniatures Handbook, otherwise they would know about the Skullclan hunter, a PrC that allows you to sneak attack undead... *hint hint* Let's see... Minatures Handbook, third-party World of Warcraft supplements, Goliath Fighter. Do you guys cherry pick spells and feats from 3E and 3.5 to play a 3.25 game too? Sounds to me like that's exactly what you're talking about. :twocents:
metamind 04-11-06, 04:50 PM	Convince the DM to force him to take rapid reload, and start helping out the party. Do you know why he is acting this way? Perhaps you offended him/her at some point, or maybe he/she does not even know thier not helping. Just tell that player to get into the campaign, or out of the group. :twocents:
Khisanth Magus 04-11-06, 05:52 PM	I dont think they are using the Miniatures Handbook, otherwise they would know about the Skullclan hunter, a PrC that allows you to sneak attack undead... *hint hint* found a weapon in Miniatures Handbook that I'm gonna sugest to him (reloading is a free action, shwing!). That being said... Just because a character can't be used to their full potential in one dungeon is not a sign that a character sucks. I have a raptoran fighter/stormtalon(well, she is fighter/stormtalon/shaper now) who has been stuck in a dungeon full of undead for quite a while. All of my feats are made for air combat, so down here I am next to useless. Before i started taking levels of psion I was essentially a fighter with no feats. While my party and I have joked about my usefullness(especially since i have an abysmally low will save and we are facing a lot of mummys so I spend a great deal of my time running in fear), we all know that when we finally leave this place I will be a lot more useful. It is probably the same thing with your rogue. He will probably be a lot more useful when he can put his abilities to use! Judging a character's usefullness based on a single dungeon is not a good idea, especially a dungeon like the one you are in.
Mist of Shadows 04-11-06, 08:00 PM	I personally hate feats that just give a +2 to two skills they are in most cases a WASTE. I really really hate having to waste feats on those to get into prestige classes. That being said Rapid Reload is a USELESS feat and I would rather spend two feats on alertness then take that stupid feat. It makes no real world sense for one, you can't physically laod a crossbow that fast for another it's useless to a rogue. sure you could use the cross bow but really you have to have a really bad str score before it's worth it. Like a 6 or so because even at an 8 or 9 that's only a -1 to a bows damage I would rather do that then waste a feat on a crossbow. Not going to say anything to metamind's comment other then don't waste your time trying to get a dm to force a character to play a certain way, it's insulting and degrading. Personally I would rather have a funny character and player then someone that wasn't funny and was only concerned with fighting. The rogue is probably built for things like picking locks and other dungeon crawling jobs. On the last game I was in we payed an npc rogue to travel with us to just pick the locks and traps. No fighting requirement. Best gold I have spent in a long while. If he does nothing else but detect traps and pick locks in a dungeon he is still worth having. I'm not joking about this. If he saves the party from a trap that would otherwise kill them then he paid for himself. For example if any trap has a dc of more then 20 and isn't magic. then you aren't going to find it most likely. Unless you're wasting a spell to find them and even then the spell doesn't last that long. So stop with the trying to force him to take useless feats. Okay there might be better choices then alterness but Rapid stupid reload is sure as hell not one of them. As for the cross bow why? Did he happen to find it? Is it something he could use? Was there a reason he didn't use a bow? Maybe he just picked it up because he wanted too have a ranged weapon and it was easy. Don't expect a rogue to go into combat like a fighter. Maybe he rolled crap on hp and doesn't have that many. Maybe like a sane person he is rping not wanting to get hurt. Wow what a frecking concept. Just because you don't see any reason for him not to charge into a combat and get scars and risk death doesn't mean he feels that way. If you have a problem talk to him in character about his views. But he is a rogue they tend to have light fingers and not want to get hurt. Rogues aren't fighters. Period They just aren't. Some people on the boards do very well making them into fighters, but they aren't they are skill monkeys. Their job is to combat traps and sneak attack things and to scout things. Best thing to do would be to talk to your dm about increasing the number of traps in the dungeon. That way he gets more things to do and you feel vendigated that he is useful. I'm not there though I can't actually see if you are just being petty or not. If it pisses you off stop supporting him. do your actions and buff the rest of the people in ways that help more. Let him do almost no damage with his crossbow if he wants. I doubt he cares that much about the crossbow. He could always take feats that help with general aiming. Or he is perfectly in his right to do the skill monkey thing and not fight. It's up to the group of characters to tell him to leave. You have every right to tell the thief to shape up in game. Not really your job to tell him what feats to take out of game. Some more examples of situations would be nice. But rapid reload is a stupid feat.
Zero Knight 04-12-06, 07:15 AM	I just flipped throught the Mini's, and sure enough, there is the crossbow of repeating. I thought he was mistaken and was looking in Arms & Equipment. Also, wands of Gravestrike allow you to use sneak attack against undead. That being said... Just because a character can't be used to their full potential in one dungeon is not a sign that a character sucks. I have a raptoran fighter/stormtalon(well, she is fighter/stormtalon/shaper now) who has been stuck in a dungeon full of undead for quite a while. All of my feats are made for air combat, so down here I am next to useless. Before i started taking levels of psion I was essentially a fighter with no feats. While my party and I have joked about my usefullness(especially since i have an abysmally low will save and we are facing a lot of mummys so I spend a great deal of my time running in fear), we all know that when we finally leave this place I will be a lot more useful. It is probably the same thing with your rogue. He will probably be a lot more useful when he can put his abilities to use! Judging a character's usefullness based on a single dungeon is not a good idea, especially a dungeon like the one you are in.
Bob Loblaw 04-12-06, 10:06 AM	What do you guys do in a group with a character that just absolutely lags behind the others in power? I'm not talking about an average build hanging out with bunch of twinks, I'm talking about substandard choices totally gimping a character. I do nothing. It's not my character. If he wants input/advice, I give it, otherwise I let him play his character and I play mine. I'm an Archivist and we're battling undead clerics on our way to tackle a Lich(presumably a level 7 wizard, cleric, or sorcerer). We've got a healing machine Cleric, a Goliath fighter, and a well made Ranger with undead as a favored enemy. Sounds like everyone is happy with their choices and in this case is shining. Keep up the good work. We also have a crossbow-wielding Rogue who didn't take Rapid Reload and I'm babysitting with my Mace of Odo and Lightning Bolt using Archivist. You have some useful tools. What does he have available? So far, we only know about a couple feat choices. He isn't contributing jack and he never seems to be hit by anything from mind-boggling luck. If he isn't being hit, why are you babysitting? If he needs help, he'll ask. Get back in the game and let him have his fun. I understand your frustration, but it is his character. If he wants to take Spell Focus [Divination] for his rogue (or any other feat that would seem worthless for his character), then that's his decision. Maybe he has a plan and needs to take certain feats. Maybe he just wants to have fun. Maybe his idea of fun is being the underdog. I say let him play his character the way he wants. If his choices cause his character to die, then he will learn from that. If his character survives and he has fun why should you or anyone else care?
Wargamer 04-12-06, 10:29 AM	Oh, and I'm offended by that comment about me being power-gaming dick who thinks D & D is World of Warcraft or dodgeball in gym. Thats crap. I'm not asking him to come in with some sick build I'm just asking him to make a somewhat effective character and know enough about the game to use the mechanics properly. In one word, contribute. Which he hasn't. And yeah, I buff the little blighter and have bandaged a few boo boos but I'm getting sick of wasting resources on someone who A, doesn't appreciate, and B won't use it. I agree with you... it's totally stupid that he should make a character that does something other than smash undead! I mean, what kind of idiot wants to disable traps, or stab living things in the back when they could tank their way through skeletons!? Spot the Sarcasm. Fact is, you've put his character on the backfoot. I've played plenty of games where members of the party have simply "dropped out" of the fight... like when running into an Iron Golem. The party had plenty of forewarning, so came in packing Addy, the Arcane Archer pretty much just sat and twiddled her thumbs. So, who was at fault here? The DM for putting in something she couldn't handle, but her party could? Her for not making an addy-using Melee character? Neither. This was one encounter. I'd seen plenty of others where she'd made seemingly overwhelming foes die after giving an amazing hedgehog impression. Characters excel in different ways. Before you start bashing the Rogue, how about you fight something other than Undead? Go beat your DM over the head with a bag full of every 3.5 book released, then when he gets out of hospital, tell him to include traps and opponents vulnerable to Sneak Attack... then your Rogue will contribute.
Pegasos989 04-12-06, 10:43 AM	I am not saying that you would be a cocky power player just thinking of fightning. Those guys atleast know what feats to advice others to take. You are trying to make a _R-O-G-U-E_ take rapid reload instead of alertness? What the hell? You are trying to force a player to power play and you are not even doing it well... Tho I am not completely thinking that this is your fault. If the DM realy put the adventure in undead-heavy dungeon with no traps for several levels he really didn't think of the rogue. Just tell DM that one of the character doesn't fit in his campaign and one of them must change. Thing of the guy who made a rogue and then learned that the next 5 levels would be in a dungeon where neither his social stats, trapfinding or sneak attack work. Those are THE abilities of a rogue.
Morrowner 04-12-06, 01:44 PM	Metagame much, Zero Knight? We made the characters beforehand and had no idea that we'd spend hours upon hours going after undead. And no, I'm not forcing him to powerplay. He wants to play a Rogue obsessed with crossbows. I'm just saying if you're going to do that why don't you pick some damn feats that make you better with a crossbow?
pres_man 04-12-06, 02:28 PM	Get the rogue a longspear and tell him to assist the fighters. With a longspear he can flank, and roll to assist, giving the fighters +4 to their attacks (+2 flank, +2 assist). The fighters then could drop 4 to power attack thus doing more damage (+8 damage with 2-handed weapons).
malignor 04-12-06, 02:58 PM	Your character should start calling his guy "Deadweight" from now on. When you save his butt, grumble and say "I shoulda let him beat some sense into you, Deadweight." or similar things. Then tell the player it's how you (and your character) feel about his character's abilities and lack of contribution, that it's nothing against the player. At least this way it add some drama to the roleplaying, while egging the player on to get his character a little better. Honestly, we really need to know what makes this guy weak... what are his main skills? Feats? Equipment?
Mist of Shadows 04-12-06, 07:37 PM	Just because you like cross bows doesn't mean you are any good with them. I happen to like hearing people sing, I even while in the woods try it some times. (only place I don't get hurt by friends) I'm not tune deaf by any means but I can't sing. I wouldn't if I was a dnd char waste a feat on my singing. It sounds like the rogue's player is trying to make the best out of a sucky situation. I guess playing with crossbows is fun, doesn't mean he wants to gimp his character by taking feats related to them. Besides it's going to be awhile before that feat will even help him. A rogue's attack is bad enough that as a second attack in a round the crossbow is going to miss (almost) every time. Why spend a feat to set yourself up for agrivation. You are better off spending it on other things. I believe that alertness is also required for a few prestige classes. It's also a bonus to two very nice skills. Something he might need. Heck it seems like he is trying to do something well. Be the scout. If you don't want to baby sit him don't. If he dies he will make a new character. No skin off your back.
lycanthrope0 04-13-06, 04:45 AM	someone made a request or several people did for stats skills and other feats the charector has but i im with the maority of the people that the rogue is not doing much becasue he is worthless agaisnt undead. currently i set up a rogue to be a social orentied person noing that one of the other 4 PC was a cleric and not sure what the other would play. as it ends up i am the only one in melle and have been counting the encounters untill i die for it as it ends up we have 1 halfing cleric minimul buffs and usses a sling 1 cleric of pelor uber healer to the point of cast sanctuary and go into full defensive till he need to heal 1 wizard 1 scout ranger archer type but i am not complainging that the group wants me to find traps and be the tank at the moment just dont expect to live past level 7 with the charector so what i am having fun till then
Wargamer 04-13-06, 04:49 AM	It sounds like the rogue's player is trying to make the best out of a sucky situation. I guess playing with crossbows is fun, doesn't mean he wants to gimp his character by taking feats related to them. Sounds a lot like me... I love Crossbows, but aside from maybe taking Point Blank Shot, I will rarely invest in "Ranged" feats. Ranged combat is not my first choice... it is simply my preferred option once my first, second and third choices aren't available (First being "Ambush", second being "Flank and decapitate", third being "Stand behind the Cleric in Full Plate and let him do it").
King_Bulba 04-13-06, 06:40 AM	Rapid reload LOL. If you want more combat related build he should take double wand wielder over rapid reload, but that's me. Use wands of acid splash to get ranged SA, for both wands, later on get a quickened one on top of that. Though getting SA at range isn't the easiest thing to do it is still better than rapid reload, wand of grease would do it though. Not that this will help on undead but I see this problem more as a DM issue than an inept PC. There really should be traps there. An intelegent lich would trap his domain.
Zero Knight 04-13-06, 09:05 AM	What metagaming? You said how you where tried of babysitting, so I am offering advise that would make him useful in your current situation. Taking a level of cleric for gravestrike or getting a wand isnt a bad plan. There is also a feat I believe in Complete Adventure that allows you to do extra damage and sneak attack undead(or constructs if you are an arcane caster) There are a few ways around it, plus all the other really good advise given in this thread. So what level are you guys anyways? Metagame much, Zero Knight? We made the characters beforehand and had no idea that we'd spend hours upon hours going after undead. And no, I'm not forcing him to powerplay. He wants to play a Rogue obsessed with crossbows. I'm just saying if you're going to do that why don't you pick some damn feats that make you better with a crossbow?
IbanezNinja 04-13-06, 11:37 AM	Well, I dunno about rapid reload, but if you really wanted him to take a crossbow feat, it should be crossbow sniper, from the PHB II CROSSBOW SNIPER You are skilled in lining up accurate, deadly shots with your crossbow. Perhaps you add custom-made sights to your weapon, or you have learned to maximize the stability and precision the weapon offers. Prerequisites: Proficiency with hand, heavy, or light crossbow, Weapon Focus with hand, heavy, or light crossbow, base attack bonus +1. Benefit: When using a crossbow for which you have the Weapon Focus feat, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1/2 your Dexterity bonus. If you have the skirmish or sneak attack ability, the maximum range at which you can make such attacks increases to 60 feet when you are using a crossbow for which you have the Weapon Focus feat. It seems perfect for a rogue that wants to focus on a crossbow. But yeah, the rogue is just in a dungeon that's bad off for him, I'd wait until you guy's got into a trap heavy dungeon with living creatures before passing judgement.
cutsleeve 04-13-06, 12:30 PM	Metagame much, Zero Knight? We made the characters beforehand and had no idea that we'd spend hours upon hours going after undead. I think that was the point others where trying to make. He made a character who under normal conditions was a viable and playable character capable of pulling his weight. He was then placed in a situation where at least 1/4 of his abilities wouldnt be useless. Meaning that the circumstances have made him ineffective not the character build. And no, I'm not forcing him to powerplay. He wants to play a Rogue obsessed with crossbows. I'm just saying if you're going to do that why don't you pick some damn feats that make you better with a crossbow? Now my next statements may sound a bit rude but they wont be that bad you should read them anyway because they will shed a lil light on this situation. You stated that he should take the Rapid shot feat as others have pointed out that is a horrible feat. Instead he took Alertness which is a feat most rogues end up choosing. Thats a bad choice you made there so by that statement id say he has good reason to not trust your choices of feats. Secondly a crossbow isnt that bad of an idea its a ranged weapon that under normal circumstances would have allowed his to sneak attack at 30ft range. Plus if i where him id have gaussed my quarrels and used oil to saturate the undead and lobbed flaming darts into them. Why not try and ask him to be a bit more tactical in his thinking if he's gonna stay in the back. Thirdly (heres the really rude bit) playing roleplaying games is about playing characters. The whole reason WOTC upgraded to the 3rd edition and changed all the previous rules was to make money. But it was also so people couple play the characters they wanted to play not the character others wanted them to play or that an arbitrary system forced on them. I dont see how its you business to tell him how to make or run his character. He made a character that he wanted to play and he contributes to the enjoyment of the game by being funny and getting along well in the gaming group. That however doesnt mean you have to defend him you are playing your own character and no one is telling you to do it. So stop he will have 2 choices start fighting on his own or start thinking about his survival. There is a third option but panicing doesnt usually resolve anything. At the moment it doesnt seem like the others in this thread support your position. I dont blame them really. Your complaints are very weak and sound a little bit like jealousy over his humor and likeablility in the group. Remember jealousy is the path to the darkside/munchkinary.
Mist of Shadows 04-13-06, 06:22 PM	I resent that munchkin goes with the darkside. We know the bad things that happen to darkside people thus stay in the middle path to get the best from both worlds. er yeah.. As for the character I say talk to him in game about not wanting to have to guard him, I'm sure you can work something out in character. There are a number of things you can do without gimping a character (taking a level of cleric just for a spell is gimpy and weird logic wise.) Having the arcivist give you a wand or sell you a want of grave strike makes sense. they probably know what it does and is. Just play your character and stop worrying about the other guy.
Entheogenic 04-13-06, 06:45 PM	If your campaign is going to be really undead heavy, how about asking the DM to let him take a feat that would let him sneak attack undead (maybe for a reduced damage bonus or something)? After spending all that time studying them up-close and personal, maybe he'd learn a thing or two... Entheogenic
Morrowner 04-15-06, 11:36 PM	Crossbow Sniper...thats really freakin' good for his character. Its been on hiatus for a week as the Easter stuff is kicking in and my birthday is on Sunday. King_Bulba:I got yelled at in-thread(perhaps deservedly) for when asked for possible feats by the character for suggesting Rapid Reload over Alertness. Evidently Alertness is a much better feat than Rapid Reload. I think they're both terrible, but whatever. Now you want me to say "Next level max out Use Magic Device and take Double Wand Wielder. It'll be really sweet, trust me." C'mon. Next weekend it'll be Crossbow Sniper, a request for that Complete Adventurer feat, and the crossbow from The Miniatures handbook. Peace, and sorry to ZeroKnight for the snipe about metagaming. I didn't mean to sound like a ****.
Mist of Shadows 04-16-06, 03:56 AM	I wouldn't suggest taking any feats related to a cross bow. And both of those feats do suck. (alertness sucks ass, it's just not as bad as rapid reload) (I hate feats that don't let you do something you couldn't otherwise do. So like a plus to a skill or to a roll or a +2 to spell pen aren't that great in my book.) Suggest a feat that allows him to do something that he couldn't otherwise do that is rogue like. Maybe combat expertise or something. Trading base attack for defense isn't a bad thing. A few other ideas but main thing don't suggest wasting feats on stupid weapons. Crossbow = stupid weapon. Crossbow in real life not so bad because it tends to hit better then most bows. In dnd this isn't really an issue because of insane stats. Even a str of 10 it's better to use a bow then a crossbow. I would just ask him where he sees his character fitting in, and that you are getting a bit tired of as you say baby sitting his character.