Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pyth HandSlieght 03-01-06, 03:14 AM	I am currently playing in a campaign with 3 other people 4 on some days. Well 1 of those people are starting his own campaign. The current game im in I have had problems with feeling, outclassed, and pretty much not really needed. So in return I made new characters multiple times to try to fit in better with the campaign. I did it so often my DM called my characters "halfling of the week" cause I often made halflings. Now in this new campaign I adressed the DM my feelings about that. And he understands and is trying to make it so I can get some "roleplaying time" in instead of spectating practically every game. So I had in mind that I would be a fighter that used whirlwind and prestiged to kensai. The idea was sweet and interesting. However I found out that 2 of the other players are going to be melee too. one of them is the 4th person who is there on and off is an orc fighter The other one is going to be a monk/kensai. and the other one is going to be a shadow mage thing. I am not into the whole cleric healing thing. I don't really want to compete with the mage who has had much experience with mage from previous campaigns. So now I feel im sorta stuck with this rogue or "halfling of the week" And with my experience with my Whisper gnome(halfling) rogue lvl 16. *dm erased gnomes from existance Game play has been somewhat unsatisfactory. I have a 52 hide and a crazy pick pocket skill. Yet whenever i go for a sneak attack the enemy always manages to elude it. ie teleporting away, aoe spells, or dieng before i can get to him. Whenever i pick pocket. I get money. and only money. generally copper. So if your still reading. What do you recommend for race? class? abilities? role-playing focus? telekinesis looked interesting. Wouldnt know where and how to start with that though.
Neverwrong 03-01-06, 05:50 AM	Warforged Psion , with Psionic Body(think it was called that). Humie Warlock.
Burner2501 03-01-06, 07:08 AM	One thing you can do is talk with your DM about integrating your character into his campaign world a bit more. For example, your character could be a relative of one of the major BBEG or one of the helpful NPCs. That would give you a little more roleplaying influence. So, when the characters go looking for the BBEG the DM can have special info you might know and he can slip it to you either before that game session or on a note during as if you just remembered. That's one of the things I have done to get players in my group to feel more involved if an adventure doesn't fit their skills as much, making it fit their background instead.
Pandaemoni 03-01-06, 07:08 AM	What level/stats (or point buy) are you looking at? I assume by "outclassed" that you are looking at being a combat powerhouse and that your issue is that being the skill monkey is getting you no respect? What source books can you use? Have you looked into playing Pun Pun? You only need to be fifth level for that one Assuming your DM is sane (or insane, but has read about Pun Pun), do you prefer spell casting classes or traditional melee? Pun Pun aside, a wildshaping druid with Natural Spell is always a powerful combo...to the point of being overpowered...in both melee and spell casting terms. PSions are likely not the best class to try. Unless you are very good with the class it's frequently hard to really outshine traditional spellcasters over the course of a whole game-day. (If your DM typically pits the party against less than the supposedly standard four encounters per in-game day though--which many DMs do--then Psions are a great choice, and better than arcane casters.)
Torack 03-01-06, 09:13 AM	Why didn't you stick with the Halfling Fighter/Kensai idea? It sounded rather neat IMO. While I understand the whole all-bases-covered set-up players tend to have, there is IMO little reason to always stick with that theme. Sure some area's might pose problems (healing comes to mind), but it's all salvageable, ie. buying a wand of cure xxx wounds or having one of the players multiclass into a healing class. Traps could be another issue, but finding them is half the job and most warriors are capable of soaking quite a bit of damage before biting the dust (Toughness is a great feat for this at lower levels.) On that same note, why were you the one that ditched your idea and not either of the other two warrior-builds? My advice would be to talk to your DM and maybe figure out a way for your character to conform to your ideas without specifically being placed in a niche that you do not want to occupy. Any RPG should be about equal amounts of fun for all players, if one of you isn't, then something is wrong.
morganm 03-01-06, 12:32 PM	I know how you feel about being outclassed in combat. My little lvl 3 gnome illusionist is rather limited in combat right now; as compared to the meat shield damage dealers and the rogue. I've spent many fights hiding behind something and just trying to remain unoticed or flinging 1d4 sling bullets with my 20 THAC0 =P Where you can shine is out of combat. You have to assert yourself (and your character) in social situations. Those situations rely less on your class and more on playing your character. This can still be hard if other ppl in the party have overbearing personalities and always seem to take control of the situation. You can still have fun though! Develop some weird character habbits :) You have awsome pickpocketing? Look for bigger scores than a few copper! Stop being a spectator and start being a participant :D
DeadKeepWalking 03-01-06, 12:54 PM	I have dealt with this problem before, many times; the DM wants you around, but the players could care less. There have been times where I thought about putting up the dice and books because I can never find decent groups. It sounds like the players don't want to incorporate you into the group. Asserting authority, i.e. making yourself noticed, while a good idea, doesn't work if the players don't want to take the time to incorporate you into the group. You are feeling unwanted, not needed, because the players don't seem to want you around. You need to address the other players, more than the DM. Find out why they constantly outshine you. One problem is the fact the DM isn't letting you sneak attack, or the players kill it before you can sneak attack. Your character is so good at sneaking around, why don't you offer to scout out the enemy before the party attacks? Be the forward observor, find out what you are up against. But, if the situation doesn't improve, I suggest either becoming the DM for awhile, or finding another group.
Iron Kobold 03-01-06, 05:07 PM	Pyth, This is something you might want to consider. Go to the optimization boards (ignore everything labeled Pun-Pun), and take a look around. I tend to agree with, DeadKeepWalking, the players might not be keen on your method of play. Are all the encounters combat. If they are- these players may not be keen on sharing the kills. So go ahead and make a support character. A cleric doesn’t have to be JUST a band aid. Pick out some good Domains (WAR) and go to town. Sounds to me- that your group would love to have some buffs. Don't try to complete. If you make a character that helps these gorillas kill then you might be elevated to Player's Favorite Status. :D I wish I could give more advice, but I know nothing about your group, the game, or the style of play. But I wish you luck, nothing worse than having, “My character's so Broken” -itus.
Mock26 03-01-06, 05:21 PM	I would suggest that you play a wizard and that you study the spells and look for creative ways to use them. For example, you could carry around a skull and some oil, and you cast unseen servant, have it "hold" the skull, cover the skull in oil and set it on fire. I think a lot of people/monsters would find a hovering, flaming skull quite scary. Toss on a magic mouth and have it scream and it gets more scary. There are a lot of creative ways to use spells. Additionally, create your own spells. You can either do this as part of your character (your character creates custom spells that no one else would have) or create them as a player, in which case they would be spells available to everyone in the world, including NPCs. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
Board_Rider 03-01-06, 05:41 PM	Feeling outclassed and not needed? You're going to have to play what you hate. A Cleric. Everybody will love you then. Trust me..they will need you. Or you can play a Druid.
Secrets Untold 03-01-06, 05:51 PM	Rogue, you say? Impossible to be outclassed, unless you're new to rogue-ing. If you want a nice trick, coup de grace one of the fighters when they sleep. Especially the orc, you can blame it on racism. :P Or, take your fighter and challenge them to a duel. Whoever wins becomes "King Meatshield". The losers must change class to respect "King Meatshield's" power. All you have to do is win, but if you lose, torment the winner on being "King Meatshield". It's not neccesarily impressive. Then fall back on my first plan. Hope I helped! Although, to be honest, I probably didn't...
Ashok_Lal 03-02-06, 12:24 AM	First thing first if you are always feeling underclassed and you are always a halfling I dont know maybe if you join the dots you can work it out.
Galroth 03-02-06, 04:28 AM	I will second unleashing C.o.Dzilla on your gaming group. Anytime you are feeling you are being slighted, show them what you can really do. Also you might want to take this to the Character Optimization boards. But do remember to bring pertinant info with you, such as books allowed, what kind of point buy or rolling scheme you are doing and the setting. They will show you the way to unleash the inner beast in any character.
Clawhound 03-02-06, 12:25 PM	You really need to read up on what your class can do. For example, a rogue can sneak attack up to 30' away. With a dex based character, you should have a far better chance of getting the drop on him. Rogues can Use Magic Device. Be the rogue with all the necessary magic items. In fact, a high level rogue with 1 level of cleric or wizard or both can use almost anything in existance, no rolls necessary. Choices matter. That monk/kensei will be using monk weapons. Have your character learn a weapon that a monk cannot use. A two-handed-sword kensai is very different from a flurry-based kensai. Not only that, but you can use a bow. Let the fighters type tank, while your bow kensai plugs the enemy at a distance. Don't overlook psychic warriors, rangers, druids, etc.
pres_man 03-02-06, 02:04 PM	I might suggest that you go halfling ranger (archery). First things you will want to invest in is: a warpony. wand of cure light wounds. This way you can do some healing (mostly after combat), yet still be a fair combatant. The reason you want the warpony is with an archery build, you can take full attacks even when your mount moves (including running). So you have both mobility and the ability to full attack at almost all times. Eventually you might decide to take a prestiage class like, halfling outrider, or hospitalor. And don't call yourself a ranger, you are a cavalier. When choosing melee weapons, stick to only those that can also be thrown (so you can benefit from halfling ability and your high dex for archery). This build won't make you the tank of the party, but you'll be surprised about how effective it can be. And with a good choice of skills you can be the scout/tracker of the group. You'll be the first one into situations and be able to report back to the group about what you find.
cypherx 03-02-06, 06:31 PM	assign each class a die number and roll. then assign each race a die number and roll. then play it. you will get the most interesting characters ever. a halfling barbarian? well, with weapon finnesse and a medium spiked chain you would be hard to mess with, and of course all small characters get size bonuses. (the strength penalty is easily countered by the size and frustrating consistancy to hit) a half orc monk? the strength and darkvision make you unsurprisable. (the minus 2 wisdom hurts, but won't cripple you) a half orc druid? i actually played a half orc druid who wielded a large scimitar and punked people like that. the penalty to wisdom hurts, but the character is cool! ok, who could play a dwarven rogue. well, i could. dwarves have the cunning ability to craft, repair, and disable device, and search, and other coolios on stone traps. owwww! they also have a constitution bonus and fortitude save bonus that makes them hard to poison as most traps do. these are all strange character ideas. always add tweaks. describe your character. tatoo's, missing eyes, strange ritual mutilations, things to just make you stand out make for the most interesting characters. if you have two completely (seemingly) opposing values, try to work around it.
pres_man 03-02-06, 08:25 PM	FYI, half-orcs take hits to Int and Cha, not Wis. They make fine druids and monks.
Mentar 03-02-06, 11:24 PM	One of my personal favorites is to play something uncommon when possible. How about a half orc rogue, make sure you are big and pretend to be a barbarian. Make sure you are somewhat strong, carry javelins, and take feats like point blank shot, precise shot, and maybe combat expertise/improved feint to allow a sneak attack with the javelin each round. If allowed go for the master thrower PrC, 1D6 plus sneak attack each round as a ranged attack. Best of all, pretend to rage when you throw javelins into melee combat. If the other players don't know you have precise shot (only tell the DM) and don't know you are a rogue (act like a barbarian) it might scare them into paying attention to you. And they will think the extra damage is comming from the str bonus while raging (if you can roll damage where the DM can see but they don't).
Doopliss 03-03-06, 12:00 AM	Or... NINJA! No, really. The Complete Adventurer ninja seems perfect. You get almost as many skill points as a rogue, limited ki abilities, a decent BAB, the ability to go invisible for one round at a time, (Would come in quite handy for those Sneak attack eluders you mentioned.) and it doesn't sound like you get much flanking Sneak Attacks in as it is. Maybe even Ninja/Monk for Stunning Fist, Flurry of Blows, and stacking ki abilities. If you didn't guess, yes, I like to play a Ninja. ;)
cvazi 03-03-06, 01:18 PM	Umm, how is a super stealthy rogue in a party of fighters *not* dominating the game? Try being more assertive. With you 52+ hide (And the "Darkstalker" feat [LoM]) you can easily accomplish any mission you want without detection while the rest of your party is still trying to get through the first room. As a forward scout, all the DM attention will be on you and the rest of the party simply becomes incidental. If your sleight of hand is in the same range as your hide, you might want to start looking at the Epic Level Handbook. You target what you want to steal in stead of going for random stuff.Sleight Of Hand The character can lift another’s weapon and perform major feats of legerdemain. DC Task 50 Lift a sheathed weapon from another creature and hide it on the character’s person, if the weapon is no more than one size category larger than the character’s own size. 80 Make an adjacent, willing creature or object of the character’s size or smaller “disappear” while in plain view. In fact, the willing creature or object is displaced up to 10 feet away—make a separate Hide check to determine how well the “disappeared” creature or object is hidden. You slide in steal your opponent's weapons, and then kill thier defenseless chumps at your leasure. With a maxed out UMD, and an assortment of wands/staves/scrolls, you are probably better equipped to deal with magic than your "wizards." Remember, they may shine in combat, but you can end combat before it even starts.
erc1971 03-03-06, 01:39 PM	Warmage, which is IMO the most powerful of the base classes. After hitting 4th level, the rest of the party will be on the sidelines watching you dominate and destroy. There are 2 key things to the warmage: thier edge, and spontaneous casting. Edge: Definately take the extra edge feat, it makes all the difference. Sure your edge is only going to be a few extra points of damage to a spell - but that damage is taken by everyone caught in your fireball, taken by everyone pinned down by your EBT (which keeps doing the damage) Spontaneous casting: Adds amazing versatility. Fireballs are great, but what happens you run up into 1 enemy in a tiny room? You have single target spells. Meet an enemy with a really high SR? Throw any of your "Orb" spells at him. An enemy has resistant to just about everything? Orb of Force or Orb of Sound are resisted by almost nothing. Have a bunch of enemies with SR? Cast Burst of Flame and clear out a huge area. When someone tells you that damage is the weakest thing a wizard can you, you will laugh maniacly in thier face and obliterate them without breaking a sweat. Soon the party will watch in awe as you mop up the floor with multiple creatures with a CR of 4 higher than you. At 10th level you will be utterly destroying epic level spellcasters (Evard's baby!). (Keep in mind you are doing this solo, the rest of the party can bring along pom poms and make a cheer for you). Cast ring of blades or Fire Shield, they are great defensive spells as no one wants to attack you in melee, and you can also use them to inflict damage. Metamagic feats are your friends. Combine them with "Sudden" Metamagic feats and you are talking scary damage. And, if your DM let's you get your hands on Metamagic Rods, the world will become your slave in no time. Over all Warmages are a very straight forward class to play. You just find the spells that allow you to do the best damage and unleash them. If you want to shut down your enemies, just lay alot of EBT's and watch em get crushed to death (big plus, your edge adds to the damage here, OUCH!) And after a few levels, you will never really run out of spells, as the edge keeps low level spells viable for a long time (I have seen a 1st level spell do 72 points of damage before). When you have 50+ spells available to you each day, the DM is going to be hard pressed to run you dry. All the above examples were things that I saw in our last campaign, a friend of mine was playing a Warmage (no one in our group ever had any previous experience with them). By the time he was 5th level, we basically just watched him crush, as we were so feeble compared to him. At level 10, the DM had to cheat his ass off to keep him from soloing a level 18 wizard lich (warmage go the jump on initiative and kept casting EBT on him, the DM had the lich cast DD or teleport over 6 times, no way he had that memorized, hehe). While other casters were flailing uselessly, thier spells failing due to SR or saving throws, the warmage would kill everything in a round or two. Hope this helps, Eric
Judging Eagle 03-04-06, 02:07 PM	I didn't really read what anyone else posted (I blame the nyquil I took at 1:45, so my head says sleep but I say no), but here's my two bits. Play a human cleric of Pelor. Or any Sun Domain granting deity. Now, never, EVER heal anyone unless you really want to. Focus instead on getting yourself super-buffed, equip the biggest, badest Marital Weapon, the heaviest armour and sheild you can and shred the enemy to ribbons. Reccomened spells: Divine Might, Righteous Rage, Brambles/Spikes, Shillelagh, Vigor, etc. You'll be just self-buffing and if you ever face any undead.... well, can you say greater turning? Yeah, anything you turn is destroyed and you can use it 3+cha mod times a day. Use your plain old turning attempts to fuel a Divine Metamagiced Divine Mights so that you have full BAB, +X str and +1hp/lvl. If you can, get your hands on Shillelagh and Brambles/Spikes to change a basic club into a +1 club that uses a 1d10 and add +1/Clvl (brambles, max +10) and +2/Clvl (spikes, max +40?) in damage. You'll be hitting like a ton of bricks, will hit as often as the fighter and quite often two to ten times harder sicne you can do about 1d10 +40 damage at lvl 10. Yes, full bab and tons of damage. I'm sleepy, so later. Oh, you might consider being an archivist to learn more spells (brambles, spikes and shillelagh are druid only spells, so only an archivist can learn them).
Koverchenko 03-04-06, 10:22 PM	I feel for you--when I first started playing DnD a few years ago, I was going up against old veterans and a math major who was EXTREMELY good at power-gaming huge damage dealers, and for several campaigns in a row I fell by the wayside, unable to really find a niche that made me a star (and we all want to be stars, don't we?). It seems as though your campaign is pretty melee-centered--personally, I do not like such campaigns because I think that melee combat is one of the most boring things in DnD (roll the dice, roll the dice, roll the dice until you or the enemy dies). There are a couple ways to deal with that-- You could go ranged combat--scouts, with their skirmish and fast movement can kind of do what rogues often cannot do in a melee-centered campaign. Plus, with big hide skills you can go ahead of everyone and find out what is going on, often times solving the problem without assistance (and possibly getting solo experience) or creating chaos and creating strange new situations that everyone else has to deal with. Incidentaly, melee fighters are usually very bad at dealing with strange new situations where they have to do more than charge and start rolling. With a high Sleight of Hand mod, you could go Master Thrower (pretige class in Complete Warrior). One of the abilities they can get allows them to use their Sleight of Hand skill to render a foe flat-footed and therefore vulnerable to a sneak attack. Their other abilities are also very interesting. You could also become a dedicated support character (this is what I eventually did). Bard is a good choice--Inspire Courage is always a big help, especially if you enhance it with Inspirational Boost, plus your spell list includes Grease (grease an opponent's weapon and he must make a new Reflex save every time he tries to use it) and Shatter (my favorite spell in the game) and other fun spells that can be great for tactical support of front line fighters. Also, specialist wizards--especially Transmuters--are excellent supporters, able to beef up the fighters and their weapons and mess up the enemy. You could also provide support in others ways--I once played a swashbuckler whose weapon of choice was a whip, took Improved Trip and Improved Disarm, and spent my time tumbling around the battlefield tripping foes and stealing their weapons, which is a tremendous aid to melee fighters. Another time, I created a big, huge football player guy with Run, Improved Bullrush, and Improved Overrun. He would lead the way into the fight, knocking people down and forcing them into tactically advantageous spots, while the other fighter would follow behind him, attacking the prone enemies. You can be a very effective combatant without causing any actual damage. You simply make it easier for others to deal damage. You should also try asserting yourself a bit more--suggest battle plans. Melee fighters often just charge as soon as possible and turn the fight into a slugfest. Work with one or two of them and try to get them to hang back for a moment while you beef them up, and watch the others get jealous of their enhanced power. Tell them what sorts of tactical maneuvers you can do, and try to get them to work off of that. Make sure you get noticed in between battles--being headstrong and impulsive work well in this area, as does being the first person to do something. And always try to think up new uses for your skills/abilities. I remember one time I was playing in a detective campaign--I was a Diviner, working with an Urban Ranger and a Sorcerer who was focused on non-combat-type spells (we were not very well-suited for combat)--and we got into some trouble down in a sewer. We had stumbled across the guards for a den of wererats and were getting torn up pretty bad. The noise attracted the attention of the other rats, and one of them poked his head out the door to see what was going on. I had no combat spells prepared, but I was desperate, so I cast Hold Portal on the door the rat was poking his head through, and it slammed shut and gave him a good whack on his fuzzy little noggin, dealing damage and sealing him and his fellows in the room, keeping them out of the combat and giving us a much better chance at survival (we wound up losing anyway, but that's beside the point). With a little thought, pretty much anything is useful in pretty much any situation. You just have to figure out how to use it. And when in doubt, just cause chaos--it makes for memorable events, and the true measure of a good character is how memorable he or she is.
Trarth 03-04-06, 10:51 PM	ask your dm to have some one or some thing that involves your backstory show up, or kill a party member, that'll show em. just kidding, only kill some one if you are boredededed............ededed
Dragonsblood 03-05-06, 01:53 AM	Try an elf ranger (archer). You'd be something different, and you could still heal the group with wands, which your group sorely needs.