Feinting [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Feinting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jaime_Wolf
06-16-05, 09:12 PM Am I confused, or is it true that it's almost impossible to feint against anything but a spell-caster with little to no sense motive. The fact that the person you're feinting against gains their BAB to the opposed skill check makes it nearly impossible to feint against a fighter, anyone with sense motive skill would be a reasonable opponent, but even the BAB of a wizard makes it against your favour when attempting to feint. Thus, it seems to me that feinting is largely useless unless your class gives some large bonus to it. Anyone care to prove me wrong? I'd feel much better as I'm trying to make a character that can feint well.
Kintara
06-16-05, 09:30 PM The Feint maneuver is a very particular thing in D&D. Keep in mind that most competant fighters will feint in combat, but not nearly as many will Feint. Feinting takes an action to set up, and deprives your opponent of their Dex modifier, and it's based off of the Bluff skill. I guess my point is don't think that your character doesn't know how to misdirect his opponents to open up attacks. In a sense, that's what your iterative attacks can represent, an ability to make blows land against an opponent. Combat Expertise can be defensive feints to ward off enemy attacks, along with parries and dodges.

Anyway, if you want to Feint well, you'll want to be an Invisible Blade, and take Rogue levels (or something else with Sneak Attack). Feinting is really most useful because of its ability to deny enemies their Dex bonus, allowing for Sneak Attacks. It's true that it can be difficult to Feint against enemies with high BABs and Wis/Sense Motive modifiers. You really do have to resort to items and special abilities to make it work consistently. The Tattooed Monk gets a tattoo that adds a gigantic bonus to Bluff, for instance, though it can be difficult to fit something like that in.

Edit: Keep in mind that someone with a maxed Bluff will still beat most fighters in a Feint, more often than not, as most NPC fighters don't have Sense Motive. Maxed out skill ranks are at level +3, which helps you build a buffer for success.
stealth_monkey
06-16-05, 09:35 PM Well, you could do it with a bluff-monkey. I'd say go bard, with skill-focus: bluff and persuasive. As long as you pump your skill points into it you should be able to do it

Edit- Listen to Kintara- her's is better
Jaime_Wolf
06-16-05, 09:36 PM Yeah, Invisible Blade was what I meant specifically when I said class ability to make it easier (you'd think duelist would get one, seems quite in-line with their flavour). Anyhow, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something that made feinting less impossible, but I suppose I wasn't, so thank you anyhow.
Dave Stebbins
06-17-05, 05:36 PM Even against a fighter, a maxed out bluff (level plus three ranks) versus a BAB (equal to level) gives a rogue well better than a 50-50 chance of success. Given that most fighters won't have any sense motive bonus, it's unlikely to get worse than that, and could get much better if the rogue has a positive CHA modifier or buffs up with skill focus or PrC-based bonuses.

-Dave
Encard
06-17-05, 09:28 PM Something that's important to remember: skill bonus items are cheap, even in 3.5. An item that gives you a +30 to Bluff checks costs 90,000 GP - hefty, but certainly not inaccessible at high levels - and is still pre-epic. Combine that with maxed Bluff and a good Cha score, perhaps add in some other things you find, and you're going to be able to beat just about anyone reliably.

At level 20, with just an 18 Cha, you'll have 23 (ranks) + 4 (Cha) + 30 (competence) = +57 bonus. A full-BAB character who somehow maxed Sense Motive and happened to have the same Cha score (a rare occurrence indeed, I'd say) would have a +47 bonus - still quite reliably below you, and a rare occurrence in and of itself.

I'd go with a previous poster's advice, though - if you want to make the most of Feint, the Invisible Blade PrC is definitely the way to do it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaime_Wolf 06-16-05, 09:12 PM	Am I confused, or is it true that it's almost impossible to feint against anything but a spell-caster with little to no sense motive. The fact that the person you're feinting against gains their BAB to the opposed skill check makes it nearly impossible to feint against a fighter, anyone with sense motive skill would be a reasonable opponent, but even the BAB of a wizard makes it against your favour when attempting to feint. Thus, it seems to me that feinting is largely useless unless your class gives some large bonus to it. Anyone care to prove me wrong? I'd feel much better as I'm trying to make a character that can feint well.
Kintara 06-16-05, 09:30 PM	The Feint maneuver is a very particular thing in D&D. Keep in mind that most competant fighters will feint in combat, but not nearly as many will Feint. Feinting takes an action to set up, and deprives your opponent of their Dex modifier, and it's based off of the Bluff skill. I guess my point is don't think that your character doesn't know how to misdirect his opponents to open up attacks. In a sense, that's what your iterative attacks can represent, an ability to make blows land against an opponent. Combat Expertise can be defensive feints to ward off enemy attacks, along with parries and dodges. Anyway, if you want to Feint well, you'll want to be an Invisible Blade, and take Rogue levels (or something else with Sneak Attack). Feinting is really most useful because of its ability to deny enemies their Dex bonus, allowing for Sneak Attacks. It's true that it can be difficult to Feint against enemies with high BABs and Wis/Sense Motive modifiers. You really do have to resort to items and special abilities to make it work consistently. The Tattooed Monk gets a tattoo that adds a gigantic bonus to Bluff, for instance, though it can be difficult to fit something like that in. Edit: Keep in mind that someone with a maxed Bluff will still beat most fighters in a Feint, more often than not, as most NPC fighters don't have Sense Motive. Maxed out skill ranks are at level +3, which helps you build a buffer for success.
stealth_monkey 06-16-05, 09:35 PM	Well, you could do it with a bluff-monkey. I'd say go bard, with skill-focus: bluff and persuasive. As long as you pump your skill points into it you should be able to do it Edit- Listen to Kintara- her's is better
Jaime_Wolf 06-16-05, 09:36 PM	Yeah, Invisible Blade was what I meant specifically when I said class ability to make it easier (you'd think duelist would get one, seems quite in-line with their flavour). Anyhow, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something that made feinting less impossible, but I suppose I wasn't, so thank you anyhow.
Dave Stebbins 06-17-05, 05:36 PM	Even against a fighter, a maxed out bluff (level plus three ranks) versus a BAB (equal to level) gives a rogue well better than a 50-50 chance of success. Given that most fighters won't have any sense motive bonus, it's unlikely to get worse than that, and could get much better if the rogue has a positive CHA modifier or buffs up with skill focus or PrC-based bonuses. -Dave
Encard 06-17-05, 09:28 PM	Something that's important to remember: skill bonus items are cheap, even in 3.5. An item that gives you a +30 to Bluff checks costs 90,000 GP - hefty, but certainly not inaccessible at high levels - and is still pre-epic. Combine that with maxed Bluff and a good Cha score, perhaps add in some other things you find, and you're going to be able to beat just about anyone reliably. At level 20, with just an 18 Cha, you'll have 23 (ranks) + 4 (Cha) + 30 (competence) = +57 bonus. A full-BAB character who somehow maxed Sense Motive and happened to have the same Cha score (a rare occurrence indeed, I'd say) would have a +47 bonus - still quite reliably below you, and a rare occurrence in and of itself. I'd go with a previous poster's advice, though - if you want to make the most of Feint, the Invisible Blade PrC is definitely the way to do it.