Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Metabubbles 10-26-04, 04:59 PM	:weep: Basically. Anyways, what happened (background if you will) before 'in game' started the DM wanted our camp setup. Somebody had the Horses near our campsite, literally on top of each other. I asked if that was where they were at and I was told we weren't worried about the horses. We were camping and were ambushed in the middle of the night (we are about 8th-9th lvl). I am a sorcerer and got a line of the orc's in a row and went for lightning bolt. Successful, however, 3 of our horses were in the line as well, I tried to argue that we weren't paying attention to the location of them. They argued that is where they were. So, I kill 2 horses, and my horse survives (reflex save made). 1 was our cleric, the 2nd was our rogues. Immediately next rd the rogue 'Sneak attack's' me for killing her stupid 75 gp horse. I go down to like 8 hp's, and basically neutered for the remaining of the fight. Same fight, I forget how, I am SO mad at this time, I get hit with a -7 to my strength. I had an 8, so I am basically now helpless. Anyways, what should I do to get back at the rogue? Should I get back at the Rogue? The Rogue never apologized and in fact I still replaced the horse, out of my own pocket. Thanks.
Phrennzy 10-26-04, 05:06 PM	Is this something that stayed in game? I mean, is the rogue's player angry or is it just the rogue. I mean, in game, if another character stabs me he better kill me because I am gunnin for him. Even at a 1 strength you can stand and cast. Unleash the beast - preferrably after levitating or flying out of range. If it's out of game anger, take it up with the DM and player. Express yourself as you did in this post and let them know how you feel.
Metabubbles 10-26-04, 05:22 PM	I think it was inexperience, she was mad that her horse (which we just bought) died. But the player, knew I didn't mean it, and i think in character she clearly could see I didn't mean too. I am currently teasing the player that I am going to get her character back!!! I will, I know I will, but I think killing her would be terribly wrong, although in character I hold grudges. I think if she is knocked unconscious I will take something precious, what do you think?
Gamebird 10-26-04, 05:30 PM	Many new players are unaware of the other options available to them. They also have trouble gaging proportion (that is, it's wrong to kill someone for a minor slight). I know I was when I started. It might have seemed to the rogue that sneak attacking you was appropriate. Well, it wasn't. Should you get her back for it? No. That will only start a cycle of one-upping one another until one of you dies. I would suggest you tell her that you want an apology for stabbing you and a promise that she won't do it again. Ask the DM what sort of character you could bring in if the one you are playing now had to leave the campaign. Make it very clear to everyone that your character was nearly killed (and might have been, had the dice rolled differently) over accidentally killing someone's horse. If that's the way the game is to be played, imagine what will happen if you accidentally kill a party member! (I've done it. Misplacing spells is easy and sometimes things happen where ground-zero-fireball seems the best course of action.)
Impecunious_Mortal 10-26-04, 06:20 PM	When i first started playing all kinds of major oops and D'oh things happened.As a group we had dead horses, a dead familiar, and a rogue even killed the paladins stead(major oops).But we as a group just had a 'Oh my you killed Kenny you bastid' moment, no retribution(which might actually have been warranted as the pali was of tyr). The rogue did an evil act. Is there a paladin in the group? Making a new character might be a good idea. Make a frenzied berserker that will teach them. Best thing to do is remind everyone it's a game, and your characters are traveling together for a reason.
Son of Khoron 10-26-04, 06:31 PM	I asked if that was where they were at and I was told we weren't worried about the horses. Who told you not to worry about the location of the horses? If it was the DM and he allowed a lightning bolt to sizzle the mounts, that is completely off. If I was told that, I assume that they were in a safe place and not open for slaughter by a lightning bolt cast by a skilled (8th-9th level) sorceror. Immediately next rd the rogue 'Sneak attack's' me for killing her stupid 75 gp horse. I would hate to **** the rogue off for bumping into her, I might get suffocated by my pillow in my sleep. Might want to clarify with the rogue if it was an intention to kill you for 75gp. Sneak attacks are typically used to kill, its an attack to stab the organs, bleed you to death, etc. Inflicting non-lethal damage with a weapon or a fist is understandable. Is the rogue evil? Is the player young in age? What did everyone else do when they saw that? Should I get back at the Rogue? I wouldnt. First off, clarify if it was an intentional thing to nearly slay you. Second, kudos for being a good guy to replace the mounts. Third, if the rogue is played by a young player, she hits, you hit, it will continue until one stops. Fourth, DM needs to oversee all of this and act like one.
Board_Rider 10-26-04, 06:41 PM	How did the rogue sneak attack you? You moved and cast a spell....no longer being flatfooted. You are very nice in not being resentful to the rogue. ME? I would kill her. If you can't trust a fellow party member, then who can you trust? Experience, maturity, familiarity of rules, OOG and OOC stuff aside this should not have happened. Even though I hate to do it when this kind of thing happens (as a DM), I stop the game and ask,"OK, what ARE you thinking?!!" Eventually this just causes disharmony in, and out of, game. Talk with the Player and the DM and get this solved.
Metabubbles 10-26-04, 06:53 PM	Thank you all for your wisdom. I have in fact sort of made up to the rogue (obviously by replacing the steed) and practicing with the rogue. I really don't want to start another character, kind of the reason I have let it slip by the way side, and I think as long as I keep kidding the Player, I am going to get the Rogue back, I will be happy. The rogue is definitely not young, just inexperienced in D&D. The DM basically said we won't worry about the horses, but 'my party' deemed it necessary to hit them, somewhat laughing about it. I totally agree, a skilled sorcerer would not have done such a thing by killing the horses, even on accident. The DM should have stopped it there, that they were not in the way. When the rogue retaliated, obviously I was 'flat footed' to her, a member of my own party attacking me. I think she just wanted a quick hit, but forgetting she was a rogue, she had the sneak attack. Her husband was quick to say, don't forget your sneak attack (a big rules lawyer by the way, and wanting to prod the fire, if you know what I mean). I'm not really sure if I was flat-footed, but being I didn't expect it from my own party I think it made me flat-footed. I may have to ask about that. Overall I blame myself, it is kind of fun to pick on me, trust me I 'take it'. I can play off of insults on me and kind of bring it on myself, sort of in the moment. It really is the spontaneous stuff I say that makes it the more fun. So I think really the DM wanting to see what would happen and her Husband doing the same, it got out of hand. Although, if she is knocked out or whatever, I will take the easiest thing I can, so she or the party doesn't know it was me! Thanks again, you guys really help!
Son of Khoron 10-26-04, 07:01 PM	When the rogue retaliated, obviously I was 'flat footed' to her, a member of my own party attacking me. I think she just wanted a quick hit, but forgetting she was a rogue, she had the sneak attack. Her husband was quick to say, don't forget your sneak attack (a big rules lawyer by the way, and wanting to prod the fire, if you know what I mean). I'm not really sure if I was flat-footed, but being I didn't expect it from my own party I think it made me flat-footed. I may have to ask about that. Word of advice: A rogue does not need to do a sneak attack on a flat-footed person. It is not automatic. Example: you are blind and deaf, I see you vulnerable and easy prey for a stab to the liver, cut to the throat, and severing your hamstrings. Quick hit, I smack you across the face instead of going for those 'choice vitals.'
DaveReaves 10-26-04, 08:43 PM	Wait until she is riding along the path, then slip her horse a delayed blast fireball. :devil: . Horses hate delayed blast fireballs.
blufrogz36 10-26-04, 09:03 PM	Hey Metabubbles, Breathe ... explain your actions like in your post and work it out. Remember you & your fellow players characters have a vested interest in staying alive and at least grudgingly friendly to each other....and working together for the greater good & as a party of adventurers...otherwise the badguys win... and we can't have that... At least you weren't the Wizard who Fireballed his Familiar(a snake), the partys Fighter and A Paladin of Heironeous...all in mortal Combat with a 9th level Blackguard Hobgoblin.... Dumb stuff happens all the time... It takes experience & wisdom to go adventuring in a Dungeon, leaving mounts behind (and realize that your former mounts are now "Wandering Monster Chow" because you left them topside,) tied to rocks & trees... Just make ammends...and learn from it... -blufrogz36 :cool:
Mikal 10-26-04, 09:21 PM	Word of advice: A rogue does not need to do a sneak attack on a flat-footed person. It is not automatic. Example: you are blind and deaf, I see you vulnerable and easy prey for a stab to the liver, cut to the throat, and severing your hamstrings. Quick hit, I smack you across the face instead of going for those 'choice vitals.' Plus you wern't 'flat footed' to the rogue. Once you hit combat, you're not flat footed. PERIOD. Barring any uses of feinting, and the like. So it sounds like the so-called rules lawyer husband needs to brush up on his rules.
ganda1f 10-26-04, 09:37 PM	... to stab someone for what is clearly an accident of layout. Especially since you, you know, saved them from probable viscious beatings at the hands of some monsters. That said, taking the high moral road is often the best (but least satisfying) way to go in these situations. Because the only other way ends with many murdered characters and, eventually, a party that dissolves. Maybe you can roleplay this somehow ... have your character shun her for a while, and refuse to help when she is in dangerous situations etc. "Help! I'm being overrun by a horde of (insert dangerous creatures here)." "Don't worry. I won't stab you." Sorcerer pours cup of tea and sits back to watch.
Munz 10-27-04, 04:15 PM	In case you're still open for ideas, here's one. I don't know if this would be within your alignment or character, but here's what you could do... Get your hands on the Animate Dead scroll or spell (the spell would require the spell component though, which you may not have when you need the spell to function). Wait for the rogue to sleep and take his horse off to the side somewhere discreet. Now this part you would have to get creative with because it would involve you killing the horse without any tell-tale sign of it taking place. Use the Animate Dead spell on the horse and take it back to where you got it. It may or may not be readily apparent the horse is undead at this point, especially if you were careful how you did it. As a side note, having an undead mount gives I think a -10 to your Ride skill checks. And it could be days before the rogue notices anything, depending on how critical your DM is with the Ride checks. But think about it, your rogue's horse wouldn't need to eat, drink, sleep, it couldn't be fatigued, scared (well; it could be turned I geuss). And what a comical thought if your rogue player is riding along and all of a sudden a great burst of gas is released as it's belly deflates ("UGH, what is that SMELL!"). Or even better yet, if your rogue player is brushing down her horse and takes some of the skin off with it as well! Or if the horse falls, and gets up with a bone protruding where it shouldn't be; only to go on as if nothing happened. Fun thoughts...
Carkni 10-27-04, 04:58 PM	I don't know what your DM is thinking... As I DM, I would've stopped the player, as they are inexperienced and tell them exactly what it means to Sneak Attack someone. If she wanted to cut you, or punch you; that'd be quite understandable. Now, I personally only play Clerics that Gods are either of Justice or Retribution, so I would slay the Theif without any hesitation. Unless I was going to die, in which case I'd go to my temple and explain the situation and have the watch called. Attempted Murder is at least a severed arm, if not death. But that's only because I play zealots. They're more fun than a barrel of monkeys.
J.B. 10-27-04, 05:09 PM	I think the best thing to do is when you take watch (assuming you do) some night, cast sleep on her (several times to ensure she stays asleep), or if she falls unconscious, then shave her head.
SALDAR 10-27-04, 11:09 PM	Let me get this straight. The rogue actually PAID MONEY for a horse? I have a 13th level rogue and noone in the party, six members started at level 1, has ever paid for a horse and its gear. This is also the rogue that lifted a guardsman's money pouch and, when the guard noticed it was gone, was kind enough to by the guard a drink, since he didn't have money to pay for his own. Once the player becomes more familiar with the game things will settle down, hopefully. Keep playing, you seem to have handled the situation well.
EatFlan 10-27-04, 11:45 PM	k my answer here is all about playing in character... IF the rogue wanted to just be like 'you biotch!' and slap you, it would've been some pansy 1d4 knife to the butt. But since the rogue sneak attacked you it was more along the lines of 'DIE YOU BAS-TARD!!!!' So...naturally you will kill them at some point. How do you ask? I'll give you some goodies :) Next time the rogue is climbing/balancing/jumping over anything dangerous, you have your hold spells, and she has her crappy will save. If she ever commissions an item, mess it up, make it cursed. Squeaky shoes, a belt that keeps dropping things, oh yeah and a necklace that will kill her. Like someone else said, screw them in battle. Once again hold spells are your friend...Tasha's hideous laughter next time they are sneaking around. Man you can kill in 50 different ways. Or you could just have fun and make it a habit to kill her mounts. every one. all the time. haha...whats for dinner? smells like mount!
the dmg 10-28-04, 04:28 AM	You could also "accidently" hit her with a spell the next time she she is in close combat with some enemies.
Dansan 10-28-04, 04:37 AM	Where's the roleplay in all of this? You are only asking yourself what you would do in such a circumstance, but I don't hear what your character would do. Is he the vengeful type? Or does he even see the right in what the rogue did and leave it at that? Sometimes, what your character thinks and what you think about something are not the same thing.
Metabubbles 10-28-04, 11:39 AM	Where's the roleplay in all of this? You are only asking yourself what you would do in such a circumstance, but I don't hear what your character would do. Is he the vengeful type? Or does he even see the right in what the rogue did and leave it at that? Sometimes, what your character thinks and what you think about something are not the same thing. Very good question. My character is chaotic and even though he feels a bond with the rogue 'he' would find a way to get revenge, even kill her. This is the biggest problem I never really thought of until you mentioned it. I actually role-play with my Sunday School Class from Church (its a blast by the way) and even though its a 'game' I feel the player would quit if I killed her character. Plus her Husband would then quit and since I was 'invited' to play in this group (about a year ago) I would lose more than gain, out of game. This is the problem with inexperienced players and role-playing. I think I will ask the DM if instead of sneak attack damage that was dealt, maybe just normal damage, that way it wouldn't seem like she was trying to kill me. What do you think? Maybe I will also ask the player, if she really intended sneak attack damage or just normal, telling me she was ****** but didn't want to kill me?
markhaus 10-28-04, 11:47 AM	It was heat of the moment. Not really understandable to rational people, but maybe she really loved the horse. Anyhoo, make jokes about it constantly. "Dont stab me in the back, but can i ride your horse?" "Hows my lil target?" referring to her or her horse "Boy your horse is fast as lightning" Constantly refer to her as BS (backstabber) Tell her to hide her horse whenever lightning is in the distance Tell her next time you wont shoot her horse unless she is on it. Have fun. Obviously killing her is not the right thing to do
Son of Khoron 10-28-04, 03:25 PM	Her husband was quick to say, don't forget your sneak attack (a big rules lawyer by the way, and wanting to prod the fire, if you know what I mean). Some big rules lawyer. Why would he want to prod the fire? I dont get it. Is there no love between the sorceror and the DM? Second, depsite the great advice given to get the rogue back by shaving, fireballing, etc., be careful of that. If the DM, being the rogue's player's husband, enjoys prodding her to kill other PCs, then that may be the match to start a big bonfire (if you know what I mean).
Dansan 10-28-04, 04:32 PM	Hold on a minute: someone who backstabbed you would quit if you retaliated? That's just stupid and unfair. What comes around goes around, and many more of such quotes are well in place here. If this kind of leverage is held against you, something is most definitely wrong. Now, if another character actually killed me, I would be pretty ****** off myself, so I wouldn't actually kill that other character. But I would definitely do something in return. If you think that kind of action might go awry, talk to your DM about it in private. See if you can work something out in front, so if you actually do something, you have the DM on your side if you do. Perhaps even better would be to have your DM in on a certain scheme. One example of this would be if one character would try to rob another character. This is impossible to achieve if both players are right there at the table, even if the DM takes someone seperate or with secret notes. Instead, you have to talk to the DM up front and make him do the necessary rolls. This way, the robbed character might never know who did it. The example might not be fully related to your situation, but you get the idea.
Metabubbles 11-21-04, 10:10 PM	Just in case you were wondering; Due to 'my' inexperience with 3.5 rules, the "rules Lawyer" wasn't actually 'ruling' he stated an opinion about sneak attack. I thought he was pushing the rules to fit the situation, actually the DM let it lie at only sneak attack, and didn't explore any options that the damage was in fact normal, not lethal! So I must apologize to said 'rules lawyer', if in fact he was a 'rules lawyer' he would have insisted the damage could be up to the Rogue. Also the Rogue's 'player' forgot about the details of the situation, and I quote "I didn't even damage you that night did I? I don't remember". So since the DM won't clear up the situation (I truly don't want to make a bigger deal that it is) I decided the damage was minimal and no future grudges will be held for said event! Thanks again for all who contributed.
Neeek 11-21-04, 11:55 PM	If anything similar happens in the future try some roundabout revenge: Kill her husband. Make it absolutely clear that encouraging his wife to attack you will result negatively on him, instead of her. Nick.
MCCCXXXVII 11-22-04, 02:40 AM	I think you're ALL severely missing the point! You took a happy quadroped, enslaved it, used it as a beast of burden, then killed it :eek: . Maybe THAT is why the rogue attacked you (although you admittedly didn't enslave that particular horse....)
ShadowDragon8685 11-22-04, 03:03 AM	Well, in the heat of battle, if the Rogue had done that to me, there would have been precisely two things happening on my next turn. The first is a five-foot step away from the Rogue. The second is the fourth level spell that all Rogues go "Oh, @%&*!" about. Phantasmal killer. I won't give you a chance to use your fancy reflex saves and stuff. Save or DIE! And Phantasmal Killer is a Will Save, then a Fort Save. Both of which Rogues suck the arse on. And if not then, once we were all healed up, assuming we sleep near each other, I would prepare a Silenced Phantasmal Killer, and offer to take the watch immideately after hers, or the first. Once everyone is good and asleep, some gestures, then the Rogue gets to automatically fail Will and Fort saves because of being Helpless (asleep,) and there's not a mark on her. Then I go to bed. When everyone else wakes up, it looks like she expired from natural causes in the night. Do not tell ANYONE about this except the DM. Do this at the end of a game, and tell the DM, in private, what you're doing. Then when the next game starts, everyone looks confused, and the Rogue is busy rolling 4d6. It's one thing to yell at me, or even slap me. You SNEAK ATTACK me, and I will have to kill you out of fear than next time, I won't be so lucky.
danielinthewolvesden 11-22-04, 02:56 PM	It was heat of the moment. Not really understandable to rational people, but maybe she really loved the horse. Anyhoo, make jokes about it constantly. "Dont stab me in the back, but can i ride your horse?" "Hows my lil target?" referring to her or her horse "Boy your horse is fast as lightning" Constantly refer to her as BS (backstabber) Tell her to hide her horse whenever lightning is in the distance Tell her next time you wont shoot her horse unless she is on it. Have fun. Obviously killing her is not the right thing to do This isn't a bad idea. But now the DM has to do something about it. One- he shoudl remind the rogue that such action push her towards Evil (and if his is a good DM, he'll also have a house rule about "no evils" in the party, so if you do turn evil, you're no longer a PC). He should explain how attacking a fellow PC is one of the worst things that can happen in a party. Next, if the DM said "you don't have to worry about the horses"- he needed to back that up. I'd go so far as to say "since i said to not worry abot the horses, they weren't hit, thus the rogue didn't sneak attack the wizard". What your PC should do is extend the "hand of forgiveness' towards her.
ShadowDragon8685 11-23-04, 02:16 AM	Either that, or extend the hand of 'Save or DIE' towards her. What can I say. Phantasmal Killer is my favorite. :)
Otaku Ashram 11-23-04, 04:40 AM	I wouldn't kill the Rogue, but I'd make it awfully clear that if it happens again, I'd better be dead or she'd be finding out how difficult it is to be Raised when you're in a soul gem. Then again, I threatened a paladin with this after he almost let a guardian naga - that I had helped to defeat by baleful ploymorphing it into a toad, nonetheless - kill me with it's poison instead of simply letting me kill the thing after it attacked us as a toad, too.
DrWorm 11-23-04, 08:29 PM	Eh...I think you have it right to not let this matter get too big. I think you are handling it just fine. However I really do like the Sleep spell/ Shaven head option. As long as she has a good sense of humor it should just be a little ribbing that gets your point across.
Xarian 11-23-04, 08:55 PM	Rub her clothes in poison-ivy while she sleeps (the character I mean - it's pretty cruel IRL). Even if she doesn't know that it was you, you'll feel like you got your revenge.
FriendoftheDork 11-24-04, 09:07 PM	if someone did that to me I would say: The next time you stab me like that, you better make sure I die... That is if I liked the person ;) About the rules thingy, the PC wasn't flat-footed but unable to defend himself properly since he thought the rogue was friendly. So yes the rogue could have made a sneak attack.
kasthevampire 11-24-04, 09:49 PM	may i suggest a maximized or empowered fire ball on them or summon a powerful monster and have it coup de gra while they sleep. generally my dm didn't allow us to attack each other since it caused mayhem ( we attacked each other after the game ;) ) lol. most of the time no one bothered to attack me since i would kick there behind being the barbarian. especially after having a little competition and since all the people i played with didn't have a good grasp of tatics i won since they were wizards and other spell casters
incubus 11-24-04, 11:44 PM	You shouldn't have given her a real horse. You should have cast 'mount' and given her that horse. Preferably timed to disappear halfway through the day.