Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lutes&Loots 04-16-04, 04:02 PM	My fellow PCs never EVER take the skills spellcraft or use magic device. I am the only one who sees a use for them. I thought about making a rouge/sorcerer/arcane trickster with maxed out spellcraft and use magic device. I’ll just learn the most commonly casted spells, you know charm person, fireball, etc. and I will carry around lots of evocation and curing wands. This will anger whoever makes the wizard and/or the cleric, taking their job and all. The only problem is it is the norm in our group to talk about our characters before making them to make a balanced party. If they know what I’m going to do there will be no casters to get mad and my plan will be ineffective. I need a discreet way of taking advantage of the two skills without letting the outer players on to me. P.S. I first thought about putting this post on the player optimization boards, but tricking other players is for the what’s a player to do.
was_fired 04-16-04, 04:10 PM	You want help annoying other gamers why?
Beamup 04-16-04, 04:13 PM	Well, no wizard can EVER go without spellcraft unless the DM is ignoring the rules or they're happy with a Sorcerer-sized spell list - they'll never be able to add spells to their spellbook! OTOH, Spellcraft is pretty useless for anyone else. Including your proposed Sorcerer/Trickster. As for "tricking" the other players, I don't think that's necessary. LET them make non-caster PCs, then comment on how UMD is letting you do the job of three PCs.
Haradim 04-17-04, 01:08 AM	Originally posted by Lutes&Loots This will anger whoever makes the wizard and/or the cleric, taking their job and all. Or you might find yourself taking on the burdens of the more 'annoying' aspects of those classes. Got a bunch of Cure wands? I suspect many Cleric players would be more than happy to let someone else take care of party HP maintenance, allowing them to focus on other spells given the more 'expendable' amount of castings available through your wands...or their own such items. Ditto for Wizards, really (and you sometimes find you can't get enough fireballs in the air anyway, so the more the better :p). And though I don't recall much about wands and such (we almost never use them), I seem to recall something about set caster level and other effects; you might have a wand of cure, but injured players may still simply turn to the Cleric, because he just does it better. All that said, I think it's just a bad idea to try and irritate the others into seeing merit in those skills, especially given how few characters can really take advantage of them *and* have skillpoints available for more practical skills.
KAPtain Braindead 04-17-04, 02:58 AM	Be fair about it, some classes just can't select certain skills. On the other hand, don't forget the basic skills like hide, move silently, and knowledge (dungeoneering). After all, what good is having all the spellcraft ranks if you can't survive long enough to use it? Worse, do you want the party mad at you for drawing the attention of monsters by not being quiet? You might live long enough to be the butt of the jokes in game.
Salla 04-17-04, 07:56 AM	Spellcraft isn't a bad idea for the Trickster fella, actually, because it lets him identify spells that are being cast. That's useful both for catching spells without obvious visible effects (everybody knows when a Fireball is cast, not everybody knows when Charm Person is cast), and you have to use Spellcraft to ID a spell to counter it.
Eldren 04-17-04, 01:56 PM	Different players approach the game in different ways, and you probably shouldn't try to annoy them just because they aren't perceiving those skills as being as utilitarian as you are. I personally agree with you that those skills are quite useful, but there are people who want to do something else with their characters. It could be that they don't know fully what they're doing (are they newer players in the game?), or maybe they just don't think along those lines (in 19 years of playing Dungeons & Dragons, I've met quite a few players, and used to be one myself, who never really think tactically, but often think just in terms of "How hard can I hit it and how many dice can I roll when I do hit it?"). Either way, don't take those skills just to annoy the other players; take those skills because it makes sense for your character to do so (if it does make sense, that is). Consider your concept, and then pick skills and feats to make playing that concept realistic. Even on a basic class-choice level you do this: You aren't going to take Spellcraft if you're a Fighter, and you aren't going to often take "Heavy Armor Proficiency" is you're a Wizard.
UMCorian 04-17-04, 06:33 PM	OMG, he's SO RIGHT. Hes INsPISERED me I'm GIoNG TO MAKE An OGrE FIGHTER with 36 Strengh, a bunch of broken Mongoose pUBlishing Feats, and deal 120 damage every round at level 9 caz that'll SHOW THOSE oTher players the STUPID chioce of not buyINg MONGOOSE STUFF!!! VICOTRY IS MINE!!! Dude... trust me, I recently had a player who intentionally attempted to outshine every other PC taking advantage of their desire not to powerplay... and boy, did I let them succeed. He dealt 4x more damage than the average person, was a cleric, and had 10 AC higher than everyone else. He lasted 2 battles, because my rival band of 6 NPCs saw him in the first fight and knew who to concentrate fire on first. The funniest part was when he died, the other cleric didn't even bother to raise him - the other PCs just looted him dry, and the player remade a character more like everyone else shortly after. I call it a success story. :) Don't even go there unless you are sleeping with the DM. :)
Goreg Skullcrusher 04-19-04, 11:15 AM	Dude... trust me, I recently had a player who intentionally attempted to outshine every other PC taking advantage of their desire not to powerplay... and boy, did I let them succeed. He dealt 4x more damage than the average person, was a cleric, and had 10 AC higher than everyone else. He lasted 2 battles, because my rival band of 6 NPCs saw him in the first fight and knew who to concentrate fire on first. The funniest part was when he died, the other cleric didn't even bother to raise him - the other PCs just looted him dry, and the player remade a character more like everyone else shortly after. I call it a success story. The player with the Cleric made an attempt to be useful, and the only comparitive angle was how poorly designed the other PC's were, he was powerful and they were seemingly worthless, then you not only singled him out but revelled in killing him, to which point his friends didn't raise him but instead looted his corpse? :uh-huh: I certainly hope that player left and found another group to play. I know I certainly would've.
Revelation 04-19-04, 12:20 PM	In 99% of campaigns you play as a group, and characters should to some ecxtent fit with each other. In the above cleric example I wouldn't be so lethal as a DM, bit I'd speak with the guy. Tell him its not a min/max or munchkin game, I often play non min maxed that fit a campaign through role play (anyone remember that?) As to the post making a character to intentionally ANNOY someone else seems to be pretty stuphid. Perhaps if you mean EXASPERATE or GOAD I might be more forgiving. Played as a bit player not a master of the craft who knows more than the specialists it could be fun. You'll never outshine the pure classes in their fields, but you could have fun and be a useful backup. If that's what you want to do, and as you want UMD, say you'll be a rgue primarily, with some spellcasting. Moderately true, then morph the character into the one you described
Albert Dante 04-21-04, 01:06 PM	You are probably going to be in for a deception, wands aren't that good Wands have a DC of 10 + spell level + modifier of the MINIMUM required stat to cast them. In other words a wand of fireball made by a god with 48 int will have a DC of 14... no matter what int you have. That's as if you had an int of 13... very low... Note that spell focus feats do not apply to wands either... Additionaly, for the cost listed in the DM's guide, the wand has the minimum caster level necessary to cast the spell. You have to pay extra (and it can cost a lot) to get extra caster levels on the wand. Else that magic missile wand will shoot only one missile, and that fireball wand will only do 5d6 damage, no matter your level. Finally wands are limited to lvl 4 or lower spells. Similar rules apply to scrolls, except they can be spells of any level You'll eventually have to depend on staves, which cost more but have the advantage of taking (almost???) any spell in them, and use your stats and feats for DCs. What you can do with wands and scrolls, is to use them for utility spells that aren't too dependant on caster lvl and don't require a saving throw. For example, knock, invisibility, fly, mage armor, CLW (despite the fact that it loses some healing power it's still good), teleport (scroll), haste, etc. dunno if you can counterspell with a wand though As for the skills, they may be good, but that doesn't mean the party is being heretics not to take them. There are no rules saying that a party needs this or that to survive. Heck, in our group we manage to survive and often don't even have all of the 4 types of characters (arcane caster, divine caster, skill/rogue type, tank/fighter). And we do it well, and more importantly, we have fun.
trapspringer 04-22-04, 07:32 PM	Wand-O-Magic Missle, lvl 3. As a hlf paragon hum paragon at level 8, you can hit Cha 24. Max ranks and two feats, plus senergy, give you like +21 on umd checks. Quicken a wand of magic missle. You now fire of 6d4+6 damage every round, no miss chance. Yes, spell resistance stinks, but it hurts wizards and sorcerers more, particularly when you can scoff at their 20 spells a day. That said, Tell you party members. If they are aware of your plans... oh the monsters you could kill. They will respect your use of the skill, even if it isn't applied to one-upsmanship.
UMCorian 05-06-04, 05:29 AM	The player with the Cleric made an attempt to be useful, and the only comparitive angle was how poorly designed the other PC's were, he was powerful and they were seemingly worthless, then you not only singled him out but revelled in killing him, to which point his friends didn't raise him but instead looted his corpse? I certainly hope that player left and found another group to play. I know I certainly would've. I made a post about him on another thread. It wasn't that the other characters were poorly designed - this was a Lawful Evil Blackguard of Set with 8/2 Cleric/Blackguard Breakdown. He hit up every splatbook in town, trying to munch out... and he succeeded. He was a monster that dealt about 100 damage a round. And, I overexaggerated how much utility he added to the group - 95% of his spell slots were taken by Divine Powers, Divine Blessings, Spiritual Weapons and the Divine Feats from Complete Warrior... wasn't really too much left for helping out anyone else. And I just acted in alignment with enemies - you see one person decimating your forces and the rest just doing a standard load, the heck would you do? Focus fire and knock out the greatest threat!
Remnant 05-06-04, 07:29 AM	Originally posted by Goreg Skullcrusher The player with the Cleric made an attempt to be useful, and the only comparitive angle was how poorly designed the other PC's were, he was powerful and they were seemingly worthless, then you not only singled him out but revelled in killing him, to which point his friends didn't raise him but instead looted his corpse? :uh-huh: I certainly hope that player left and found another group to play. I know I certainly would've. Hmm... I disagree to an extent. I feel that groups have a general "feel" to them, and players that significantly deviate from this feel can disrupt the fun of the group as a whole. For example, to take the reverse situation, in a munchkined out, monster race hack and slash, the player who makes a philisophical human monk that tries to debate with every NPC they come across will probably annoy the ever loving crap out of the other players. I also agree that even a moderately intelligent enemy should either single out an obviously more powerful character, or flee.