Fighter BAB plus sneak attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fighter BAB plus sneak attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
wolfbrother
03-29-04, 09:11 PM well well well...
I'd like to know if its legal for a class to have HD equal to BAB and have sneak attack every other level?. I really want one for my character. IT seems all classes with sneak attack have 3/4 HD BAB. I found the Ninja in some Rokugan book and that has fighter BAB and sneak attack every other level. IN the most recent Dragon issue the redid the Ninja with a totally different idea, but it doesnt have fighter BAB. Also the Invisible blade, my characters prc, has sneak attack and fighter BAB, but i felt it needed it for being an armorless wimp to equal it out. BUT i have found no other classes with high BAB and sneak attack every other level. Have i just not looked through enough books? IS there some unwritten rule of balance that no classes can have both?
help me or i will die... seriously... die.. as in dead........
Quenditar
03-29-04, 09:39 PM I'm no judge, but that seems overpowered to me. Sneak attack can deal a lot of damage, and the balancing factors are a rogue's low hit die and lower BAB. If you want both, you'll have to pay for it somehow (d6 or d8 hit die, low skill points, few class skills, no other bonus abilities) if such an advantage can be compensated for at all.
RavynBR
03-29-04, 11:22 PM My "armorless whimp" of a Fighter/Rogue/ Invisible Blade/Thown Weapons Master (dagger fighter) would like to have a word with you on your opinion of his choice of weapons.....

That aside, while there is nothing strictly forbidding it, it IS a powerful combination (which I'm sure you'd be agreeing with as 12 daggers hit you for touch attacks for 4 sneak attacks at 7d6 each.... oh, and mind the poison....)

So, yeah, I'd avoid it in general, because there's a lot of dangerous combinations out there. You'll notice that no full casters have full BABs for similar balance issues. If you REALLY feel the need, go dual classed Fighter/Rogue. At 20th level, that's still a +17 attack bonus, so while not quite perfect, it's not far off. Now think about all the feats you get for 10 levels of fighter, and the 5d6 sneak attack you get for 10 levels of rogue.... And at +17, you're still getting your 4 attacks per round, so that's a potential of 4 attacks with a greatsword and each one (if you're flanking) gets an additional 5d6 sneak attack! Really, you don't need a dedicated class, you've got plenty of bonus right there.

(now fear the fact that my daggers all catch you as if you had no dex bonus and are touch attacks.... and I don't miss often when attacking AC 10 with a dex over 30....)
PhaedrusXY
03-29-04, 11:29 PM Unearthed Arcana suggests that a fighter variant that gives up all bonus feats to gain full Sneak Attack progression is ok. It also reccommends combining this with the "Thug" fighter variant, which is much more rogue-like. I'd look in that book at the fighter variants, if your DM allows it.
wolfbrother
03-30-04, 01:17 AM thanks alot
its good to know that a "sneak attack fighter" is actually suggested in an official book phaedrus

sorry im kinda cover my ears la la la about the "too powerful combination" stuff. I pretty much asked so someone would say "yeah its ok"... sorry to sound like such an ass

My invisible blade character usually does more damage than the party's dwarven defender so i know how they can kick ass. I was just saying how the class is kind of making a wimp powerful. You cant use armor with a D6 HD and you have to use daggers; that's kinda wimpy, and thats why they make the Invisible Blade get sneak attack and have fighter BAB.

i donno.. my character has dealt tons of damage but the whole lying on the floor in my own blood deal makes me believe it's not super omega powerful. haha thats probably why rayvn throws his dagger... you guys and your staying alive

p.s. cough cough...no full caster full BAB?... eldrich knight?
yes.. i think its a piece of crap too
Nick Soapdish
03-30-04, 02:46 AM Yeah, I was going to mention Unearthed Arcana. The thug variant that it mentions gives up medium and heavy armor proficiencies, but gets 4 skill points a level and additional skills (Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge-local, and Sleight of Hand). It also sacrifices its first level feat for Urban Tracking which might be somewhat problematic for combining the two as the fighter is also giving up that same feat for sneak attack damage. Maybe by bumping the sneak attack back by a level or two.

You should probably keep in mind that this is basically the Complete Book of House Rules, meaning that things aren't necessarily play-tested thoroughly and one should take it with a grain of salt. Personally, I think that combining full BAB and sneak attack progression is a bit overpowered. Sneak attack should get dropped to about 1/3 levels, less if the class gets other stuff like more skills. I think a ranger minus all its special stuff, 'cept Evasion & Hide in Plain Sight, but gaining a 1/4 sneak attack would probably work OK, but that's just off the cuff.

BTW, the eldritch knight isn't a core class. It's a core prestige class, meaning it's got pre-requisites which include taking a level of a non-spellcasting class. And it doesn't get full caster progression. It immediately loses a second level of casting to get a fighter feat.

And it doesn't keep the d10 either or even a d8. It's got a mighty d6 which as you noted, doesn't exactly encourage one to enter into melee.
Beamup
03-30-04, 10:56 AM If you want to take this even further, you can try:

Rogue 5/Guild Thief (or any other 3/4 BAB, full SA class or PrC) 5/Rokugan Ninja 10

11d6 SA, +16 BAB (AKA just enough for that fourth iterative attack). GTWF and a weapon of Speed, and you can do 88d6 of SA damage on a full attack. Plus LOTS of skills. But why stop there?

Rogue 7/GT 3/(any other SA class or PrC, e.g. Assassin) 1/Ninja 9

12d6 SA, still a +16 BAB. Up to 96d6 of SA damage on a full attack. I think that's about as far as you can take the concept using only class choice, and it's starting to get munchy at this point.

(edit: accidentally deleted a clause)
DM Zoc
03-30-04, 11:13 AM You think that is as far as you can take the concept? You haven't seen Bloodlines yet.

*hides level 14 +30d6 sneak attack fighter*
Beamup
03-30-04, 11:24 AM Originally posted by DM Zoc
You think that is as far as you can take the concept? You haven't seen Bloodlines yet.

*hides level 14 +30d6 sneak attack fighter*

A clause got lost somewhere in editing. "using only class choice." I'm well aware of the insane lengths most anything can be taken with templates, noncore races, etc.
JLP
03-30-04, 11:26 AM Dunno how to get all the extra sneak attack dice of a high level rogue, but if you take cleric 7/rogueX, then you can cast divine power on yourself. That gives you full BAB, extra HP, and a bonus to Str. You'll need a 14 wisdom, but a +4 magic item can do that for you if you're building a character via point-buy.

My current fav. is a cleric 9/rogueX, with Strength and Destruction domains. Second to that is a fighter1/cleric9/KensaiX. At the start of the 3rd round, his Str shoots up 22 points.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wolfbrother 03-29-04, 09:11 PM	well well well... I'd like to know if its legal for a class to have HD equal to BAB and have sneak attack every other level?. I really want one for my character. IT seems all classes with sneak attack have 3/4 HD BAB. I found the Ninja in some Rokugan book and that has fighter BAB and sneak attack every other level. IN the most recent Dragon issue the redid the Ninja with a totally different idea, but it doesnt have fighter BAB. Also the Invisible blade, my characters prc, has sneak attack and fighter BAB, but i felt it needed it for being an armorless wimp to equal it out. BUT i have found no other classes with high BAB and sneak attack every other level. Have i just not looked through enough books? IS there some unwritten rule of balance that no classes can have both? help me or i will die... seriously... die.. as in dead........
Quenditar 03-29-04, 09:39 PM	I'm no judge, but that seems overpowered to me. Sneak attack can deal a lot of damage, and the balancing factors are a rogue's low hit die and lower BAB. If you want both, you'll have to pay for it somehow (d6 or d8 hit die, low skill points, few class skills, no other bonus abilities) if such an advantage can be compensated for at all.
RavynBR 03-29-04, 11:22 PM	My "armorless whimp" of a Fighter/Rogue/ Invisible Blade/Thown Weapons Master (dagger fighter) would like to have a word with you on your opinion of his choice of weapons..... That aside, while there is nothing strictly forbidding it, it IS a powerful combination (which I'm sure you'd be agreeing with as 12 daggers hit you for touch attacks for 4 sneak attacks at 7d6 each.... oh, and mind the poison....) So, yeah, I'd avoid it in general, because there's a lot of dangerous combinations out there. You'll notice that no full casters have full BABs for similar balance issues. If you REALLY feel the need, go dual classed Fighter/Rogue. At 20th level, that's still a +17 attack bonus, so while not quite perfect, it's not far off. Now think about all the feats you get for 10 levels of fighter, and the 5d6 sneak attack you get for 10 levels of rogue.... And at +17, you're still getting your 4 attacks per round, so that's a potential of 4 attacks with a greatsword and each one (if you're flanking) gets an additional 5d6 sneak attack! Really, you don't need a dedicated class, you've got plenty of bonus right there. (now fear the fact that my daggers all catch you as if you had no dex bonus and are touch attacks.... and I don't miss often when attacking AC 10 with a dex over 30....)
PhaedrusXY 03-29-04, 11:29 PM	Unearthed Arcana suggests that a fighter variant that gives up all bonus feats to gain full Sneak Attack progression is ok. It also reccommends combining this with the "Thug" fighter variant, which is much more rogue-like. I'd look in that book at the fighter variants, if your DM allows it.
wolfbrother 03-30-04, 01:17 AM	thanks alot its good to know that a "sneak attack fighter" is actually suggested in an official book phaedrus sorry im kinda cover my ears la la la about the "too powerful combination" stuff. I pretty much asked so someone would say "yeah its ok"... sorry to sound like such an ass My invisible blade character usually does more damage than the party's dwarven defender so i know how they can kick ass. I was just saying how the class is kind of making a wimp powerful. You cant use armor with a D6 HD and you have to use daggers; that's kinda wimpy, and thats why they make the Invisible Blade get sneak attack and have fighter BAB. i donno.. my character has dealt tons of damage but the whole lying on the floor in my own blood deal makes me believe it's not super omega powerful. haha thats probably why rayvn throws his dagger... you guys and your staying alive p.s. cough cough...no full caster full BAB?... eldrich knight? yes.. i think its a piece of crap too
Nick Soapdish 03-30-04, 02:46 AM	Yeah, I was going to mention Unearthed Arcana. The thug variant that it mentions gives up medium and heavy armor proficiencies, but gets 4 skill points a level and additional skills (Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge-local, and Sleight of Hand). It also sacrifices its first level feat for Urban Tracking which might be somewhat problematic for combining the two as the fighter is also giving up that same feat for sneak attack damage. Maybe by bumping the sneak attack back by a level or two. You should probably keep in mind that this is basically the Complete Book of House Rules, meaning that things aren't necessarily play-tested thoroughly and one should take it with a grain of salt. Personally, I think that combining full BAB and sneak attack progression is a bit overpowered. Sneak attack should get dropped to about 1/3 levels, less if the class gets other stuff like more skills. I think a ranger minus all its special stuff, 'cept Evasion & Hide in Plain Sight, but gaining a 1/4 sneak attack would probably work OK, but that's just off the cuff. BTW, the eldritch knight isn't a core class. It's a core prestige class, meaning it's got pre-requisites which include taking a level of a non-spellcasting class. And it doesn't get full caster progression. It immediately loses a second level of casting to get a fighter feat. And it doesn't keep the d10 either or even a d8. It's got a mighty d6 which as you noted, doesn't exactly encourage one to enter into melee.
Beamup 03-30-04, 10:56 AM	If you want to take this even further, you can try: Rogue 5/Guild Thief (or any other 3/4 BAB, full SA class or PrC) 5/Rokugan Ninja 10 11d6 SA, +16 BAB (AKA just enough for that fourth iterative attack). GTWF and a weapon of Speed, and you can do 88d6 of SA damage on a full attack. Plus LOTS of skills. But why stop there? Rogue 7/GT 3/(any other SA class or PrC, e.g. Assassin) 1/Ninja 9 12d6 SA, still a +16 BAB. Up to 96d6 of SA damage on a full attack. I think that's about as far as you can take the concept using only class choice, and it's starting to get munchy at this point. (edit: accidentally deleted a clause)
DM Zoc 03-30-04, 11:13 AM	You think that is as far as you can take the concept? You haven't seen Bloodlines yet. hides level 14 +30d6 sneak attack fighter
Beamup 03-30-04, 11:24 AM	Originally posted by DM Zoc You think that is as far as you can take the concept? You haven't seen Bloodlines yet. hides level 14 +30d6 sneak attack fighter A clause got lost somewhere in editing. "using only class choice." I'm well aware of the insane lengths most anything can be taken with templates, noncore races, etc.
JLP 03-30-04, 11:26 AM	Dunno how to get all the extra sneak attack dice of a high level rogue, but if you take cleric 7/rogueX, then you can cast divine power on yourself. That gives you full BAB, extra HP, and a bonus to Str. You'll need a 14 wisdom, but a +4 magic item can do that for you if you're building a character via point-buy. My current fav. is a cleric 9/rogueX, with Strength and Destruction domains. Second to that is a fighter1/cleric9/KensaiX. At the start of the 3rd round, his Str shoots up 22 points.