Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mist_re 09-24-07, 09:58 AM	Group : 1 Warmage 1 Psion-telekinesis-thingy-forgot the exact name 1 Samurai (me) Whenever we engage in battle, it seems that the two casters just blow everything up before I can even get to the ennemies. Most of the time it takes me 1 or 2 rounds before getting in range. In my best fights I hit ennemies like once or two times. What can I do in order to be more effective in battle? I have a very high damage potential but because of my 0 yard range I am penalized by the caster's leetness.
Tempest Stormwind 09-24-07, 10:09 AM	(The psion's likely a kineticist. They do very little beyond energy damage and telekinesis, although they do have passable antimagic effects.) You're coming to the same bitter realization the rest of the players have -- that melee types blow chunks. This is especially the case in the Complete Warrior samurai, which is a fighter with pre-chosen inferior bonus feats (and the fighter has had piles upon piles of things written on it that rely on its flexibility, which you traded for a fancy pair of swords). It's widely considered the worst class printed, right alongside the MiniHB Healer (and possibly the soulknife). My advice? Rebuild your character as a warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2), from the Tome of Battle. That book gave melee back its spotlight. It doesn't so much add damage as add options, and the options it adds allow you to contribute even alongside the casters. Beyond that, though, just make sure to get in multiple encounters per day -- spellcasters were balanced against 4 encounters of CR=party level per day.
Kouk 09-24-07, 10:50 AM	I wouldn't say all melee "blow chunks", but they certainly will lose out on raw damage dealing to spellcasters. Complete Warrior Samurai is also a pretty weak class in general unfortunately, it is sort of an amalgam of the various types of Samurai from the 3.0 Oriental Adventures book - but it tries to do too much and ends up doing nothing. I would recommend trying to use the Oriental Adventures Samurai, even if you can't use the rest of the book - they have some nice abilities. Rebuilding as a more significantly different class is also an option, the classes in Tome of Battle have the ability to do some decent damage quickly with maneuvers. But what you should definitely do is speak with the DM privately a bit (email would probably be fine) about the number of encounters per day and the distance that encounters are starting. I don't think encounters should often start beyond the range of a Charge action, especially if you are inside dungeons. If spellcasters are allowed to blow all their spells on a single encounter because they don't have the need to "ration" their abilities for future fights, then they can focus on pure damage and "nuke" the opponents (this is especially true of psionicists because they can boost their abilities by pushing in more power points). If there are the "expected" number of encounters per day, then they will have to be more conservative with their spell use. For random encounters, you probably won't have more than one or so a day, just 'cause they get boring, but in a dungeon there should be at least the expected number of encounters per day (maybe just 3 if you have no healing in your party). Also, some magic-resistant enemies every now and again couldn't hurt - but it can be dangerous if you are the only one who can do anything in that case.
Matthew77 09-24-07, 11:01 AM	If you are happy with your damage potential once you are in range to attack, but you still end up never getting to do anything, then something is wrong with your DM's encounter format. Is everything you fight on a wide open plain with no stealth abilities? But what you should definitely do is speak with the DM privately a bit (email would probably be fine) about the number of encounters per day and the distance that encounters are starting. I don't think encounters should often start beyond the range of a Charge action, especially if you are inside dungeons. This is a good idea. Also if all encounters are in wide open places, get a fast moving mount, or some means of teleportation. Alternatively, you could change your expectations of your party role. If the casters are capable of dealing enough damage to kill the enemy, your job becomes "protect the casters" instead of "deal damage".
Clawhound 09-24-07, 11:55 AM	I have a different take on this. The problem is that your party is using spellcaster tactics. Spellcasters favor a standoff strategy. This will always work against you. You rely on an engage strategy. If you can't engage, you can't contribute. At a minimum, pick up a bow with a strength bonus and bracers of archery. Bows are very samurai. You lose no flavor. (If you doubt me, you haven't watched enough historical Japanese war films. Trust me. Watch those things. I suggest "Ran".) Also consider a 1/day item of greater magic weapon to enchant arrows. A swordbow can easily become a "katana" rather than a longsword.
Tempest Stormwind 09-24-07, 12:29 PM	The interesting note is that encounters often starting within charge range is itself bogus except in dungeon or city environments: there are spotting distance guidelines in the DMG that explicitly indicate you tend to spot them at far greater distances. Every DM I've had has skimped on these rules because they heavily favor archers (at the lowest levels) and spellcasters (at mid-high levels; really as soon as they get good medium-range spells). If you enforce spotting distance and aren't in a dungeon, melee types either need a mount (which is both a heavy feat investment to do properly *and* a liability in combat if you lack mount-related class features*) to teleport (which they can't do without equipment, except high-level monks and mid-level swordsages) or serve a defensive role that no one really likes doing. I do like the OA samurai idea, though. If you insist on playing a class with "samurai" in the name, switch to that if you can -- it'll return your flexibility in bonus feat selection, if nothing else. (Note that Oriental Adventures didn't list the lesser Rokugani clans (except the Mantis, but I'm talking in particular about the Wasp clan, renowned for their archery), nor any non-Rokugan alternatives, which means you'll have to devise your own list of bonus feats. Either that, or take Crane, Lion, Phoenix or Scorpion clan options; those probably provide you the best return in that group (Crane gives you reaction speed and out-of-combat diplomacy plus gives you reason to encourage duels rather than letting the spellcasters destroy anything; Lion gives you party support and several generally good options; Phoenix samurai are all about defending spellcasters, and Scorpion is sort of a mix between Crane's social aptitude (through Bluff) and a roguelike approach to trickery, winning at any cost. In my experience, Crane and Scorpion material tends to be the strongest). Still, your best option of all? Still the Tome of Battle. The warblade is dripping with samurai feel and provides you with several options and possible build approaches. Diamond Mind maneuvers give you magic defense, movement speed, reaction time, and precision attacks. Iron Heart turns you into a mob-killer, loaded up with finishing strikes and incredible resistance to debilitating conditions. Stone Dragon is full of impossibly strong single strikes, often with battlefield control or defensive powers attached, but at the cost of mobility (I would not suggest this for your character). Tiger Claw is all about fast, powerful, lethal attacks, often in midair or with two blades. White Raven is all about party control, giving you incentive to work as a team, as well as powerful valorous charges. In your case, I'd suggest White Raven, Diamond Mind, and Tiger Claw focus; this lets you support the party defensively (White Raven Tactics will instantly make you the most popular character in a party of spellcasters!) while granting you the speed and movement you need to close in to enemies (either through incredible jumps or courageous charges) and the resistance you'll need to your own allies' magic. Once you get in close, anything that survives the spellcasters will fall to your precise strikes or powerful deathblows. If this seems odd fluffwise, just consider Diamond Mind's attacks to be iaijutsu (they practically are anyway) while Tiger Claw's are split between the two-sword techniques you see in the CW samurai or powerful kiai-smite-esque attacks (the yell you perform with this move fits perfectly with Tiger Claw already), depending on the attack in question. White Raven needs no reflavoring at all if you understand the samurai-as-leader concept. tl;dr version: OA samurai's good (consider a bow), Tome of Battle warblade's better. * That is, after a certain point, any traditional mount you can use becomes far easier to kill than you are, and thus a liability. The exceptions are powerful nontraditional mounts -- and the more powerful those get the smarter they get too, to the point where they should effectively be NPC allies instead of purchasable mounts -- and special mounts / animal companions.
mist_re 09-24-07, 12:50 PM	Well I do serve as a defensive player . I get up to 39 armor class with combat expertise at level 16. I also have moderate fortification on my armor. But anyways. The purpose of the thread is not to bash or defend the samurai class , but I think it's pretty cool to play, with it's two weapon feats, easy intimidating that I tend to use a lot, Kiai smite , the quick draw and all. I guess i'll just deal with the fact that I'm a defensive player outdoors, and a key character indoors.
Tempest Stormwind 09-24-07, 01:22 PM	Well I do serve as a defensive player . I get up to 39 armor class with combat expertise at level 16. I also have moderate fortification on my armor. But anyways. The purpose of the thread is not to bash or defend the samurai class , but I think it's pretty cool to play, with it's two weapon feats, easy intimidating that I tend to use a lot, Kiai smite , the quick draw and all. I guess i'll just deal with the fact that I'm a defensive player outdoors, and a key character indoors. You just said you're a speed bump, really. At level 16, they are one level away from 9th level spells. They can summon things that have your AC and are crit-immune (and probably have more hit points). Plus, if the sorcerer knows what he's doing, he can get better than an effectively infinite AC.* If you're okay with this, never contributing, then fine. Know that you have alternatives, though. *I'm not joking. An effectively infinite AC is *still* hit on a natural 20 (5% chance to be hit). Meanwhile, if the sorcerer casts just two core, low-level spells -- Displacement and Mirror Image -- he has a 6.25% chance of being hit, even if his AC were 0. It's quite easy to add other effects with miss chances to drop it even lower, and even drop it below 5%, at which point he has a lesser chance of being hit than a warrior with infinite AC. And depending on the circumstances, some of these may even apply against area attacks! Granted, there are weaknesses (notably True Sight), but there are similar weaknesses on AC (i.e. touch spells ignoring your expensive armor).
Nephlite 09-24-07, 01:31 PM	You just said you're a speed bump, really. At level 16, they are one level away from 9th level spells. They can summon things that have your AC and are crit-immune (and probably have more hit points). Plus, if the sorcerer knows what he's doing, he can get better than an effectively infinite AC.* If you're okay with this, never contributing, then fine. Know that you have alternatives, though. *I'm not joking. An effectively infinite AC is *still* hit on a natural 20 (5% chance to be hit). Meanwhile, if the sorcerer casts just two core, low-level spells -- Displacement and Mirror Image -- he has a 6.25% chance of being hit, even if his AC were 0. It's quite easy to add other effects with miss chances to drop it even lower, and even drop it below 5%, at which point he has a lesser chance of being hit than a warrior with infinite AC. And depending on the circumstances, some of these may even apply against area attacks! Granted, there are weaknesses (notably True Sight), but there are similar weaknesses on AC (i.e. touch spells ignoring your expensive armor). Sorceror has to wait till 18th level for 9th level spells though. True seeing would nullify the Displacement/mirror tactic. A loty of high level creatures have that capacity to use it. But it does require enemy to use an action to use it.
moriarty13 09-24-07, 01:41 PM	Power Attack and Leap Attack? That might help you get more damage out of that first big strike. At level 16 you can afford or have access to lots of speed improving stuff I would imagine. Maybe some Exotic Weapon Master PrC? I think that does something fun for 1-handed exotic weapons. But otherwise yeah, you're in a poorly-designed melee class at level 16 in a group with two casters. You're going to not be nearly as good, there's just no way around it. The downside of being a huge AC/High Hit Point/Pitiful Damage character is that any halfway intelligent opponent is just going to ignore you. Once they take out the damage dealers, they can whittle you down at their leisure.
april151978 09-24-07, 02:02 PM	That might be true that spellcaster can blow most things away before you get there, the limitations of that per day and by the environment can make melee characters shine... First and formost, your DM needs to have this brought to thier attention, though a good DM would have seen it early on and fixed this by altering the focus of the campaign to give everyone a fair chance to shine... Every class has certain time where it is the class to be at this time, but there are how many classes out there, and your group utilizes how many?... I would guess that there might be more than one class that fits the situation, and a that point, it comes down to initiative and damage... Fireball is great group killer, but what if the enemy is smart and actually breaks apart into smaller groups (or even single creatures) and advances that way... Is fireball the best tool now to take out that threat... The DM needs to see all this before tha party gets together for thier first game and make sure that there is no one-sided fights, for or against any one party member or NPC... Fighters for most part need to specialize in one thing or another... I am not saying one weapon or style of fighting, but there needs to be an ultimate goal in the character design... As for spellcasters blowing things away, that is fine, as you should still get XP for attempting to aid the battle... If the spellcasters run out of spells, are they going to be front-line on the advancing enemy; no, so enter fighter, stage right... Better yet, make a ranged fighter... Yes, some will say other classes can do better for a limited time in ranged combat, but most feats are endless in uses per day, something people tend to forget, and a smart enemy would not be a metagammer in favor of the players and not attack just because the spellcaster is out of masive area damage spells or the cleric out of healing, or even that the party is beat up still from the last encounter... If the DM does that, the DM might as well give the party XP upfront for all encounters, as there is no challenge to that game... Not saying you can't have fun, but all people need to be included in the fun, not just the players, but DMs too...
Eric888 09-24-07, 03:24 PM	I would suggest talking to your DM about it. He probably realizes how ineffective you are and may adjust the class slightly. Otherwise as Katana is an exotic weapon, exotic weapon master may be the way to go. Some DMs won't let someone take the class if their weapon is a class-proficiency, but if he does there is some nice stuff there.
Ayra 09-25-07, 07:52 AM	In my opinion the DM is doing something wrong if you can't get in on the action. In close quarters, meleers shine and I personally never have any problems with attacking anything because a lot of fights we have are close quarters. For those that aren't, I use a bow. I'm not too familiar with the samurai class, though. I'd consider picking up feats to improve your charging abilities, that's usually a good way to get close fast and still deal loads of damage. In that case it might not take you so long to get to the action.
metalmayhem80110 09-28-07, 12:56 AM	What I would almost do, is go into barb and than frenzied berserker. You'd have to change ur alignment to chaotic, but w/e. Frenzied Berserker is scary, and you could dip into Ronin in exchange for your samurai levels. You would then need to go for the high charge, power attack, leap attack, powerful charge in rhino hide combo. You basically start to one shot things a lot. This way the one shot you do get in a combat really sticks it to the guy. Just my thoughts.
Tempest Stormwind 09-28-07, 01:01 AM	What I would almost do, is go into barb and than frenzied berserker. You'd have to change ur alignment to chaotic, but w/e. Frenzied Berserker is scary, and you could dip into Ronin in exchange for your samurai levels. You would then need to go for the high charge, power attack, leap attack, powerful charge in rhino hide combo. You basically start to one shot things a lot. This way the one shot you do get in a combat really sticks it to the guy. Just my thoughts. Then you step on a pointy stick and kill the party wizard. And all of a sudden part of the challenge in combat is surviving *you* rather than your opponents. (The party generally needs to invest in things like mind control, Calm Emotions, or -- my favorite -- Grease if they want to keep you from flipping out and killing them. There are other alternatives but they invariably involve waiting several levels after Frenzy comes.) Not to mention he's (presumably) getting a kick out of playing a samurai, and the FB is pretty much the polar opposite in melee styling. I repeat my suggestion for the warblade, which solves every single problem he's mentioned and even a few that he hasn't but will notice in retrospect, all without changing the flavor one iota.
Guardian1 09-28-07, 01:12 AM	I have a different take on this. The problem is that your party is using spellcaster tactics. Spellcasters favor a standoff strategy. This will always work against you. You rely on an engage strategy. If you can't engage, you can't contribute. At a minimum, pick up a bow with a strength bonus and bracers of archery. Bows are very samurai. You lose no flavor. (If you doubt me, you haven't watched enough historical Japanese war films. Trust me. Watch those things. I suggest "Ran".) Also consider a 1/day item of greater magic weapon to enchant arrows. A swordbow can easily become a "katana" rather than a longsword. Either that, or ask the psion and the warmage to lay off the blasting a little bit. After all, most of the time it falls to the meat-tank to protect the "blaster" classes, and you can't do your job if the enemies die before you can attack. If you're not being allowed to perform as a tank, than it's just not fun for you. (Because you're a samurai, why not play up the Bushido angle? Inform them, IC, that you've failed as a samurai and there's only one way to wipe the stain of dishonor from your family name. Can we say seppuku?)
Count Arioch the 28th 09-28-07, 01:23 AM	How about trying to find items that increase your speed and movement? Say, something that lets you fly?
kardock 09-28-07, 09:17 AM	i would buy myself boots of speed, you can activate them at will for 10 rounds a day, so when the combat starts, activate your boots and charge for double your speed and double for haste, meaning, for a base move of 20', 80' for the cahrge. that should get you in melee soon enough! ;-) you could also buy an item with dimension door or something alike on it, could jump you right in front (or back *grin*) of the minion! i can't think of something else for now (not fully awake yet) but i'm sure there is plenty of stuff you could use!
Clawhound 09-28-07, 12:36 PM	I presume that the poster wants to keep playing his samurai. It may be technically better to redo his class, but that's not the question that he asked. Belt of Battle (MIC): This will get you a few extra moves. Very handy. Get yourself a MIC. Great book.
metalmayhem80110 09-28-07, 02:54 PM	Well the question we should be asking the OP is.... Do you want to re-build the character, just get feat and item advice, or what?
Sixam 09-28-07, 08:00 PM	Group : 1 Warmage 1 Psion-telekinesis-thingy-forgot the exact name 1 Samurai (me) Self-explanatory.
CapnCJ 10-02-07, 06:56 AM	Personally, I don't like Warmages for this exact reason. I'd be tempted to call them overpowered.
Serrin 10-02-07, 07:28 AM	Q: What do you call an overpowered warmage? A: A wizard.
Cifer 10-02-07, 08:10 AM	Serrin FTW. Warmages are halfway good at one thing, which is blasting. Can they protect themselves when they lack enchanted armor and shields? Well, I don't see mage armor, shield or their bigger brothers on the list. Can they buff themselves or their party? Neither Eagle's Splendor nor fox's cunning or anything else available. And utiliy spells? Fly? No check. Knock? No check. Nothing at all besides damage spells? Check.
Gemstone 10-02-07, 08:33 AM	Q: What do you call an overpowered warmage? A: A wizard. Q: Can something be overpowered in one game and balanced in another? A: Yes ----------- Aside from that... My suggestion is that you talk to your DM about the encounter style, or that you boost your combat speed as much as possible. Ask the wizard and the psion to boost you, or try a more direct approach and tell your group what you feel :)
Serrin 10-02-07, 09:24 AM	Yes, balance is relative, I wasn't actually trying to debate that. However, if you're in a game allowing for clerics, druids, artificers, wizards, or sorcerers, and you think that the warmage is overpowered, you need to have your understanding of actual gameplay checked. If a warmage is overpowered compared to the rest of the party, it's a matter of player skill and not class features, because almost any other full caster will be much more effective if they're both played moderately intelligently.