Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pangeon 09-22-06, 01:34 PM	A friend of mine has argued with me that a (properly made,) Fighter 20 could defeat a Wizard 20 in a one on one duel. I called him a fool, and we agreed to each build our 20th level characters and battle them. The conditions, so far: 20th level. Elite Array stats. Human. No multi/prestige classing. Standard equipment for a 20th level character. Battle will take place in a 100 ft diameter hemisphere. (100x100x100 half sphere) Start 50 feet apart. No round for preperation, just straight initiave and battle. Any sources (not third party.) My tactics will be to, first and foremost, win initiave, because otherwise, I'm ganked (as he'll probably be doing 200+ damage a swing, if he's built well.) Next will be to Sudden Maximize Time Stop (5 rounds to prepare,) which I'll use to Greater Invisibility, Fly, etc. He'll probably have really good saves, or else someow be immune to control, etc. so the spell I'll probably use to break him is Summon Elemenal Monolith (from Complete Arcane,) which summons a CR 17 Elemental. (I'll probably have Augment Summoning, too.) If need be, I'll summon two. What I'm looking for now is advice. Feats to help my initiave, let me re-roll rolls, any useful equipment, spells, tactics, etc. Any advice?
oxybe 09-22-06, 01:37 PM	go on the char op boards. all the help you will ever need.
Seerow 09-22-06, 01:38 PM	You don't need to win innitiative. You say any source available? Take Craft Contingent Spell from Complete Arcane. Craft a Contingent Time Stop, set to activate anytime you lose innitiative. Proceed to win. Edit: Also, consider Arcane Thesis(Enervation), Twin, Repeat, Empower, Maximize. 16+2d4 negative levels with one casting. Quicken a second one to finish him off.
PhaedrusXY 09-22-06, 01:41 PM	go on the char op boards. all the help you will ever need.Isn't this already posted there? Or was that someone else posting a virtually identical thread? I'll see if I can find the link... Edit: Here you go. Very similiar thread, but yours has more restrictions. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=705462 No prebuffing. Does this include Contingency? If not, you will win. If so, he will win if he wins initiative and kills you on the first round.
HamHam 09-22-06, 01:45 PM	Isn't this already posted there? Or was that someone else posting a virtually identical thread? I'll see if I can find the link... Well, there was a similar one about a ToB melee class vs an arcane caster, but that's a completely different order of battle. My advice, get a PHB II, check out Celerity. It lets you get a standard action even if it's not your turn. Use Contingency to make it trigger in response to being targeted by an attack. Then, use your standard action to cast Sudden Empowered Sudden Maximized Time Stop. Delay a ton of spells around the fighter, then encase him in a Force Cage with Dimensional Anchor and stuff. If he actually survives once Time Stop ends, finish him with Power Word Kill.
Ogmug 09-22-06, 02:35 PM	I think the part of "no round for preparation" probably means no pre-existing buffs. Straight initiative only. Contingency would not be allowed in this case. If however it is allowed, the wizard most likely will win.
Pangeon 09-22-06, 03:18 PM	Heh, that's funny, posting almost identical threads only days apart. Regardless, the build he contested would win was straight fighter. Oh well... I doubt Contingency would be allowed, so just to be on the safe side I'll leave that out. *Flips though PHBII* Nice, I hadn't thought of using Celerity, and I've read that spell a hundred times. (Well, not really.) It's an immediate action, so I don't need Contingency at all. w00t. Lots of Delayed Blast Fireballs (With energy substitution for multiple flavors, just in case he's immune to fire or something like that,) and a Forecage is a good idea too, one which I had considered before. I'll probably take a look at the Enervation bit, too, that looks like it could be fun. Also, I'm not looking for an exact build, just a few key spells, and since this is just a one trick pony, I didn't really feel like taking this to the CharOp boards. I will look there for any straight Wizard builds, but I want this to be mostly my work, not something I snatched from somewhere. Also, any Equipment/Feat ideas? Pearls of Power, or whatnot?
Seerow 09-22-06, 03:26 PM	Straight initiative only. Contingency would not be allowed in this case Craft Contingency is an Item Creation feat, not the buff spell, so is applicable.
Cold Napalm 09-22-06, 03:29 PM	Well craft contingecy makes a no slot one use magical item...so that still is the win right there.
mightymouse1107 09-22-06, 07:49 PM	I honestly believe you have agreed to a form of contest that favors the fighter, and that turns on a lot of luck. For him to win, he either has to win initiative or make his saves on all the spells you throw at him during the obligatory 'time stop'. (assuming you throw insta-kills, which I would). For you to win you have to win initiative and hit him with spells for which he does not have items granting him immunity. Really, you should play a "best of 5" contest, with five different arenas. This sphere arena could be one. Some of the others may require a third party to referee. A good "best of five" (1) The sphere arena (2) A dungeon crawl, where you must find a treasure and get it safely back out, with traps and enemies in the way. (3) A hunt, each for the other, though a forest. (4) A battle through a city, with items hidden and guards/townsfolk getting in the way. (5) A battle on three bridges over a rushing river In any event, here are spells that are your friends. 9th level. (1) Time stop. Obviously. (2) Mordenkainen's disjunction, which surpisingly no one has mentioned. As long as you can't "buy" artifacts you should be able to deprive him of items, and a fighter without magic items is much easier prey for a 20th level mage. (3) Prismatic Sphere. Give yourself some breathing room to buff, unless he's that confident he can withstand all seven layers. (4) Gate. Nothing like bringing in something bigger and badder than a fighter. Essentially makes you a party of two vs. his party of one. (5) Imprisonment. One will save, notoriously not a fighter's best, and he's stuck waiting for all eternity until some later mage/cleric/sorcerer frees him. Unfortunately, you need to touch him. Fortunately, in this battle your familiar is expendable. (6) Shapechange. 20th level fighter, meet massive (insert monster of preference here) 8th level (1)Otto's irresistable dance. Upside- no save, he's out of commission for a few rounds, and that -10 reflex save really hurts. Downside- do you want to get close enough to touch him? (2) Maze. No save, and gives you a breather until he makes and intelligence check. (also not usually a fighter's best.) (3) Trap the Soul. Like Imprisonment, especially useful if you establish that the Mage knows the fighter's name. You get a range of 75 ft., instant neutralization, and its a will save. (4) Prismatic Wall. See Prismatic Sphere above. You should be able to block one whole side of the sphere. (5) Polymorph any object. Use it on him (though the fighter's fort save makes it risky) or as a catch all flexible use spell. 7th level (1) Insanity. Unless he has to attack you, it leaves him permanently vulnerable to whatever else you want to throw at him. Also, will save. (2) Forcecage. Reflex save, also probably not his best. Also, so SR in case he has an item that grants it. With bars instead of solid planes of force you can throw spells at him while he can't move. (3) Reverse Gravity. If you are battling on a flat surface with nothing to hold on to this spell is your best friend. He can't save against it, and is essentially unable to move toward you while you hit him with all manner of magical nastiness. Even if there is something to grab, its still a reflex save. (4) Bigby's grasping hand. He can't fight you if he's being grappled by a giant hand.
Ogmug 09-22-06, 08:02 PM	Well craft contingecy makes a no slot one use magical item...so that still is the win right there. 1. costs: 9*20*100=180*100 or 18,000 not really a problem 2. Assumed you are paying for any spell not given for free based on level? 3. Cannot be maximized without epic spell slot available so COULD be effective for only 2 rounds (time stop has a variable duration) 4. borders on the "preparation" round prohibition. But seems like a fair item 5. Contingent spell cannot be triggered on an abstract event such as losing initiative. (initiative is a game term, not something the player would be aware of). Could be triggered on being hit, etc. IE: events that happen TO the player. Losing initiative is too abstract of a concept (IMO). Granting this, again i feel the wizard would win, unless the fighter had ranged pin, etc.
Mufflon 09-22-06, 09:48 PM	I honestly believe you have agreed to a form of contest that favors the fighter, and that turns on a lot of luck. Really, you should play a "best of 5" contest, with five different arenas. This sphere arena could be one. Some of the others may require a third party to referee. A good "best of five" (1) The sphere arena (2) A dungeon crawl, where you must find a treasure and get it safely back out, with traps and enemies in the way. (3) A hunt, each for the other, though a forest. (4) A battle through a city, with items hidden and guards/townsfolk getting in the way. (5) A battle on three bridges over a rushing river Funnily all the other contests you suggested favors the Wizard even more. 2. The Wizard casts Etherealness, walks in, grabs the treasure and teleports out. 3. The Wizard simply flies out of the fighers reach and starts gating in demons, which proceed to burn down the forest and root out the figher. 4. Wizard casts Etherealness to get past all the people and building and then finishes the figher of with some Transdimensional spells. 5. The Wizard cast fly, destroys the bridges and watches the figher try to swim in a full plate. Indeed I can imagine very few scenarios where a fighter could beat a Wizard in a duel. On a more On Topic note I would like to add that Etherealness is a good, long term (Duration 1 min/level) alternative to Time Stop, since the fighter really has no way of reaching you. Lastly there really should be no way for a fighter to win the duel, even if he should win initiative.
Comus 09-22-06, 10:43 PM	Man, if I was going to build a wizard to take on a fighter in a limited arena at 20th level... Hm. Round 0 - cast quickened Wall of Force. This'll buy you time to buff and stuff. Round 1-20 - Gloat, cast Greater Invisibility and Fly, plus whatever buffs you like. True Seeing just in case the fighter turns invisible too. Summon a few nasty monsters. Round 21 - Wall of Force goes down. Start casting some particularly nasty spells. Anything that includes the phrase "If the target fails his save, he dies" should work. There's really not much of a chance for the fighter at all. Anything the fighter can do with items, the mage can do better with spells. In any reasonable situation, the mage will win.
Tempest Stormwind 09-22-06, 10:54 PM	1. Win Initiative. Use reroll abilities if you have to. (Ideally, Kauper's Skittish Nerves is simplest the way to go, but you're not allowed prebuffs. Therefore, you should probably see the Optimized Initiative Compilation (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=454091).) 2. Cast Forcecage. Add a Cloudkill if you want, although this garnish isn't strictly necessary. 3. Lather on the Save-or-Dies, especially Reflex and Will. Include a few abilities to lower ability scores or saves and you're gold. Avoid mind-affecting ones, though -- any fighter worth his salt knows to guard against mind-affecting effects through his gear. Another approach you might want to do is to kill him using no direct attacks whatsoever -- for instance, I've assembled pocket factories that mass-produce ammunition for Telekinesis. This would not be terribly interesting, except the ammo deals incredible damage strictly in its own right (some versions deal about 100,000d6 damage, while others deal 600,000 Con damage, or some combination between the two), before factoring in things like actual expansion bludgeoning damage (that's a rough calculation, as it involves a LOT of rapidly-expanding liquids). All you'd need to do is empty a backpack and cast a violent thrust telekinesis to chuck twenty of these things at him.
mightymouse1107 09-23-06, 01:47 AM	My point exactly, Mufflon. There are VERY FEW scenarios in a fighter/wizard match up that favor the fighter, and the originator of this thread seems to have picked one. Four non-abstract scenarios I came up with off the top of my head all, as you say, favor the wizard. I didn't go out of my way to think of "hey, what would favor the wizard?". It just turns out that in most adventure-like scenarios the wizard has the advantage. It is only in the highly specific scenario that was designed for the duel in question that a fighter is favored if he wins initiative, due to the being in the wizard's face and doing lots of melee damage. BTW, the ethearealness example for the dungeon crawl was a great, easy solution I also came up with, provided none of the magic traps or monsters extend to the ethereal plane. Or you could just buff a lot and be prepared for badness. (Contrary to what you seem to think, etherealness has some glaring weaknesses, and is not the same as invincibility.) Etherealness is no substitute for Time Stop, however, as your spells don't cross over when you are ethereal, where Time Stop more or less lets you throw multiple spells at once. Also, a fighter WILL win this fight if he wins initiative (unless using various items mentioned before that make the fighter's initiative impossible or irrelevant and in doing so break the purpose of the duel scenario, or unless the fighter fumbles on his attack.) At level 20 I have a hard time believing that melee damage won't be overwhelming any concentration check, even assuming 23 ranks, +2 con and skill focus concentration. After that, its over. The mage can't get far enough away, can't cast spells, and if he stands there is going to get attacked four times at minimum. (In other words, will probably be dead on the full attack.)
OneWinged4ngel 09-23-06, 02:32 AM	A friend of mine has argued with me that a (properly made,) Fighter 20 could defeat a Wizard 20 in a one on one duel. I called him a fool, and we agreed to each build our 20th level characters and battle them. The conditions, so far: 20th level. Elite Array stats. Human. No multi/prestige classing. Standard equipment for a 20th level character. Battle will take place in a 100 ft diameter hemisphere. (100x100x100 half sphere) Start 50 feet apart. No round for preperation, just straight initiave and battle. Any sources (not third party.) My tactics will be to, first and foremost, win initiave, because otherwise, I'm ganked (as he'll probably be doing 200+ damage a swing, if he's built well.) Next will be to Sudden Maximize Time Stop (5 rounds to prepare,) which I'll use to Greater Invisibility, Fly, etc. He'll probably have really good saves, or else someow be immune to control, etc. so the spell I'll probably use to break him is Summon Elemenal Monolith (from Complete Arcane,) which summons a CR 17 Elemental. (I'll probably have Augment Summoning, too.) If need be, I'll summon two. What I'm looking for now is advice. Feats to help my initiave, let me re-roll rolls, any useful equipment, spells, tactics, etc. Any advice? Your friend is a fool. Straight up, a Fighter with all the cheese in the world cannot actually beat an intelligently played wizard in any sort of remotely straight fight (and most very skewed ones. That's what Foresight, Hide Life, Contingency, Clone, and various others run all day (or permanently) for) There's plenty of ways to prevent him from winning initiative, or blasting him EVEN IF HE DOES. Also, if you know what you're doing, your mage can actually have more hp than the Fighter before you cast False Life (and then you can cast false life) Really... just contingent teleport to your friendly neighborhood safe place (Maybe with a rope trick you casted when you woke up this morning, just for good measure.) and buff up. Or have Foresight go off, then Time Stop, and buff up. There's no reason a mage who has any idea what he's doing should be caught by surprise, or shouldn't have a chance to buff up. Just for fun, you can polymorph and kill him in melee, or use a grapplemancer build or something. It's funny. Really. And kinda sad. Also, it's worth noting that "straight initiative" is unfair as it negates many of the best abilities of the wizard, and the fact that he has numerous tools to get him lots of time to buff before combat, as is starting at a close range. These things stack the odds in the Fighter's favor. Be sure to mention that when you wipe the floor with him. He basically has set up the "best case scenario" for the Fighter... and should still lose (well built and all) if you know what you're doing. Regardless, a contingency or something should do the trick, for a nigh-100% chance of victory By the way, if you actually are worried about losing initiative, there are many ways to boost your Init so that you start measuring it by the dozens. Feel free to use spells that don't allow a save, by the way, like Blasphemy or Otto's Irresistable Dance. Gate is a great spell, too; don't feel limited to CR 17! Grab a Balor or Solar! ...So... yeah. Either get a +50 initiative, or use Contingency (I lose initiative). Init problem solved. Use Celerity. When it's your turn, you end him. Hit him with an extended Otto's Irresistable dance, or a Forcecage, or something, or Time stop and summon balors to blasphemy trap him. You can celerity a mordenkainen's dysjunction on his stuff just before you blow him up just for laughs... or... geeze, there's SO many ways to kill him and nullify everything he can do... just have fun.
Copper_Coins 09-23-06, 08:35 AM	A friend of mine has argued with me that a (properly made,) Fighter 20 could defeat a Wizard 20 in a one on one duel. I called him a fool, and we agreed to each build our 20th level characters and battle them. When I clicked onto this link, I was actually expecting you to be backing the fighter. Don't worry about it, a high level fighter without PrC's can rarely defeat a Wizard of equal level. If you ARE worried, I have 1 tip, spend some time researching things that will benefit HIM, the fighters main (and dare I say only) forte are his feats, and if your friend has an IQ of at least 85, he'll use feats that are defensive against magic... This will most likely include Spellfire Wielder. That's really all I have to say. BEWAER OF TEH SPELLFIER
crowclub 09-23-06, 09:47 AM	Don't forget to post the results! (So we can gloat)
Mufflon 09-23-06, 09:48 AM	Who wins initiative really shouldn't affect the outcome of this battle, no matter who goes first the Wizard can simply cast celerity (whish is an Immediate Action) and then cast Time Stop/Wall of Force/Etherealness or some other such spell. Indeed I would be surprised if the fighter even managed to hurt the Wizard.
Mufflon 09-23-06, 09:53 AM	He basically has set up the "best case scenario" for the Fighter... No the best case for the fighter would be a 10 by 10 by 3 foot cube cloaked in an Antimagic field.
LouSapphire 09-23-06, 09:58 AM	Who wins initiative really shouldn't affect the outcome of this battle, no matter who goes first the Wizard can simply cast celerity (whish is an Immediate Action) and then cast Time Stop/Wall of Force/Etherealness or some other such spell. Indeed I would be surprised if the fighter even managed to hurt the Wizard. Unless I am mistaken you start combat flat footed until you act. And I don;t believe you can make immediate actions when you're flatfooted. In this case iniative does matter, if the fighter has an item that radiates anti-magic, wins iniavtive and charges into a grapple there could be serious issues...
der_gogo 09-23-06, 10:14 AM	My take: - Get the highest Dex possible - Get Imp. Initiative So you can be relatively sure that you win the initiative. Round 1: Cast Disjunction on Fighter. Most items should be dispelled now. Cast quickened Wall of Force to prevent him from going melee. Round 2: GATE in a Balor or a Pit Fiend or whatever nasty 20 HD Beast you like. Dismiss Wall of Force. Look as Monster hacks him to bits. Or Shapechange, or whatever you like... So many possibilities... :D
John05 09-23-06, 02:09 PM	poor fighter.. :weep: He always looks like hes on the butt end of jokes.
Kyle_the_wizard 09-23-06, 03:58 PM	I happen to like Klurichir from the FF, not many fighters can hold they're own against one espically when he's disjunctioned, and your casting buffs on said demon.
PhaedrusXY 09-23-06, 04:28 PM	Unless I am mistaken you start combat flat footed until you act. And I don;t believe you can make immediate actions when you're flatfooted.You are not mistaken. Another tip for the wizard: get a Luck blade with no Wishes in it. Use the reroll ability if you lose initiative. (Of course, the fighter can do this too, if he thinks of it.) Expect the fighter to : be able to Fly, have True Seeing, have Spell Turning, have the ability to Dimension Door or Teleport, have Mindblank. He may also be specializing with ranged weapons. If so, a cylinder shaped Wind Wall will counter that once you get it up.
Roivas 09-23-06, 04:41 PM	Pangeon, you can't win this fight. You're playing a wizard right? No preptime at all? That means you need one hour to flip through your spellbook to get your magic on, meanwhile the fighter could simply sunder your book, or just sunder you. Here's my advice to deal with this, carry a few scrolls of expeditous retreat and have a floating spell book, then start running like a madman while trying to prep spells. If you can come with your daily allotment of spells you realy don't need to plan at all, just use improved invisbility on you and your familiar, cast forcecage on just you and lob spells with impunity. I'd also advise flight, but you really don't need to try for this, fighter over.
PhaedrusXY 09-23-06, 05:35 PM	I would assume that the wizard has his/her spells prepared ahead of time. It would be a pretty stupid contest if s/he didn't.
wolfie-kun 09-23-06, 06:15 PM	I would assume that the wizard has his/her spells prepared ahead of time. It would be a pretty stupid contest if s/he didn't. Yeah, it's no buffing that's allowed before combat. And yeah, if you can't win initiative, you're screwed. Fighters find 600 damage/round laughably easy with the right feat choices, and if you have that many hit points you're a god of wizard. That luck blade is a very good idea, or any other abilities that would let you reroll that d20.
Seerow 09-23-06, 06:43 PM	Tell your friend to make it 100 ft apart to make things slightly more interesting. Or you could be cheesy and try to get your AC up to 50-60, and assume he's thinking you're a typical squishy Wizard and have a laughably low AC.
Taninger 09-23-06, 08:10 PM	Rod of absorbtion. It won't be enough for a straight fighter to win, but it will make your life more difficult. At least, if you disallowed all XP based spells as we did when I went up against my friend's martial class (though he did choose a monk, so...) That said, Mordenkainen's Disjunction > Rod of absorption, though it takes up the one spell slot... it might be worth it. Time stop, prismatic sphere, and Summon elemental monolith would be my suggested follow up to that.
Seerow 09-23-06, 08:12 PM	The above poster has a valid point. Disjunction him then shapechange and melee him to death now that all his magic items are gone.
Sapp 09-23-06, 08:21 PM	If you are playing RAW (supported by the FAQ), then boost up your caster level and Shapechange into a Demilich. Trap the Soul as a supernatural ability. Even if he makes the DC 36 Fortitude save, he gets 4 negative levels. Deathward does not save him from instant death. Good fight, Good night. (Yes, the FAQ clarifies that you can shapechange into undead, even templated ones.)
Taninger 09-23-06, 08:33 PM	A twentieth level wizard, with the Elite array and the right items, can have 32 Int, 24 Con, and 24 Dex (this includes magical enhancements... +6 items, +2 Ioun stones, and the appropriate tomes (+4 for physical, +5 for mental)... This should give you decent AC/Health, as well as a fairly huge amount of spellcasting. Avoid direct damage, but Disjunction is nice. Dimension Door if you're grappled, then Prismatic Sphere and Elemental Monolith. If you're focused on Abjuration, you'll have a DC of 30+, and then your Monolith can crush his puny body like paper. Or, if it fails... Summon a second one. With +11 Int mod, you get 5 spells to prepare. That said, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction and Time Stop can be fun as well. To mention only 9th level. Even low level spells (Hold Monster) can be fun.
Palomides 09-23-06, 09:12 PM	If you are playing RAW (supported by the FAQ), then boost up your caster level and Shapechange into a Demilich. Trap the Soul as a supernatural ability. Even if he makes the DC 36 Fortitude save, he gets 4 negative levels. Deathward does not save him from instant death. Good fight, Good night. (Yes, the FAQ clarifies that you can shapechange into undead, even templated ones.) But you cannot change into creatures of hit dice higher than your level. And I think you need to re-read the FAQ, because you cannot change into templated creatures.
Tempest Stormwind 09-23-06, 09:29 PM	But you cannot change into creatures of hit dice higher than your level. And I think you need to re-read the FAQ, because you cannot change into templated creatures. Correct on templates. Incorrect on the level -- or rather, correct, but you didn't notice he said he was boosting his caster level, i.e. through dull grey ioun stones. Under this circumstance, you can shapechange into anything your caster level can reach. Do note that this is Shapechange, which completely replaces all references to HD with "The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD)." There's a thread on the CO boards showing every known way to boost your caster level. Check it out sometime.
Tarvok 09-23-06, 09:38 PM	Here's what I'd like to see. When you're done with this, get two more friends, and the four of you can stage a similar contest, this time between teams of two. See who wins: a fighter and a wizard, or two wizards.
Bopple 09-23-06, 09:52 PM	Nope, Shapechange is also limited by the same restriction.
Sapp 09-23-06, 10:04 PM	But you cannot change into creatures of hit dice higher than your level. Correction, "caster level", not level. That's why I wrote that you need to "boost up your caster level". And I think you need to re-read the FAQ, because you cannot change into templated creatures. Ah, I see they've finally fixed that. My copy of the FAQ is a few months old, after all. Oh well, there are plenty of other good things to shapechange into. EDIT: I see that Tempest_Stormwind covered that, already. This post was unnecessary. My thanks and apologies. I am a bit impulsive at times.
Pyke_Moonshadow 09-25-06, 07:42 AM	I think the OP had it right. In this situation it comes down to initiative. I would consider crafting a contingent spell as prep time.
HamHam 09-25-06, 11:11 AM	I think the OP had it right. In this situation it comes down to initiative. I would consider crafting a contingent spell as prep time. Za? It's a magic item. Would you consider the fighter buying a magic weapon prep time? Or either side having various wonderious items, potions, scrolls, wands, etc. And unless there's errata or a FAQ I don't know about you could have 20 different contingent spells on you for any number of things. Although if the fighter is smart, he'll have some two, which may complicate things.
Pyke_Moonshadow 09-25-06, 11:34 AM	Za? It's a magic item. Would you consider the fighter buying a magic weapon prep time? Or either side having various wonderious items, potions, scrolls, wands, etc. And unless there's errata or a FAQ I don't know about you could have 20 different contingent spells on you for any number of things. Although if the fighter is smart, he'll have some two, which may complicate things. Ok, so the wizard then can pick craft feats and get more mileage out of his money than a fighter does (as he could pay the reduced cost since xp wouldn't be a factor since they are both 20th right?)
HamHam 09-25-06, 12:04 PM	Ok, so the wizard then can pick craft feats and get more mileage out of his money than a fighter does (as he could pay the reduced cost since xp wouldn't be a factor since they are both 20th right?) No, but you can just pay full price.
OravennasBrother 09-25-06, 01:06 PM	Fighter gets miracle placed omn the appropriate Ring of Spell Storing, takes a feat to be a champion of the temple of the cleric that casts teh Miracle, and ASKS HIS deity to revert both characters to 1st level for the duration fo the arena combat. Too bad my fighter is an Elf. Goodby Wizard. (DO I really need smilies?)
PhaedrusXY 09-25-06, 01:23 PM	Yes. That really proves alot about the relative strengths of the fighter and wizard classes...
Pyke_Moonshadow 09-25-06, 02:34 PM	Ok, so contingent spells don't matter since both sides could have them. I am still going with initiative.
Cold Napalm 09-25-06, 03:35 PM	Fighter gets miracle placed omn the appropriate Ring of Spell Storing, takes a feat to be a champion of the temple of the cleric that casts teh Miracle, and ASKS HIS deity to revert both characters to 1st level for the duration fo the arena combat. Too bad my fighter is an Elf. Goodby Wizard. (DO I really need smilies?) Miracle is level 9 spell...spell storing ring can hold up to level 6...and the target of the spell must be touched! If the contengent item time stop is set right, the warrior is not getting within touch range. Also all this proves is that clerics are overpowered anyways.
Pangeon 09-25-06, 04:12 PM	Well, the friend gave in and said that, yes, the fighter would lose. I still want to run the combat, though. (Yeah, I'm cruel. So sue me. :P ) Potential problems: 1. Initiative. As HamHam suggested, I can just cast Celerity (an immediate action, so I can cast it right off even if I lose,) to get me an action (Sudden Maximized Time Stop comes in here.) I think that solves the initiative problem. 2. Spell Resistance. Easy, use spells with no SR. Summon spells will probably be my main tactic, summoning Elemental Monoliths or Gating in Balors. 3. High Saves. Same as for SR goes for saves, I'll use no-save spells. That, or I'll pump my save DCs to high heaven, and just go for something like Sphere of Ultimate Destruction for super high damage. 4. Him. Since I could be Greater Invisible and Flying (or ethereal,) before he even takes his first turn, the chances of him hurting me are low. He should have items that grant True Seeing and flight, though, so either incapacitating him (Hold Person or a Prismatic Sphere,) or going underground (Meld Into Stone or the like,) seem like my best bets. That should really be about it. I'll post the results if we ever get around to building them (neither of us have tons of free time,) hopefuly within the next few days. In the mean time, another friend proposed that forty 1st level fighters could take one 20th level fighter, so it looks like I'll be building one of those nest... :D
OravennasBrother 09-25-06, 04:17 PM	Miracle is level 9 spell...spell storing ring can hold up to level 6... That's why I said the appropriate Ring of Spell Storing (because I hate Cut and Paste from the SRD) From SRD on Rings "Spell Storing, Major: As the minor ring of spell storing, except it holds up to ten levels of spells." And what I see for Miracle does not require any "Touch" - just get the miracle out there. Though yes Miracle IS either a very powerful spell or (if the DM dislikes deities) a very weak one. I know a DM who rules that Wish is FAR more powerful than miracle because he (the DM) enjoys playing Wizards (not the reason stated, but I know that DM pretty well...) Still the Miracle should work fairly well, then both get their starting gaer and 1st level abilities - given that the fighter actually gains initiative or survives long enough to use the ring. IIRC a First Level Fighter has some ability to take on a 1st level Wizard; far easier than taking on a 20th level wizard in a straight up arena fight.
HamHam 09-25-06, 04:26 PM	1. Initiative. As HamHam suggested, I can just cast Celerity (an immediate action, so I can cast it right off even if I lose,) to get me an action (Sudden Maximized Time Stop comes in here.) I think that solves the initiative problem. You can't take immediate actions while flat-footed. Thus, the celerity has to be contingent (either through the spell or the Item type) for it to be any use. Without that, you have to win initiative straight up.
Sapp 09-25-06, 04:29 PM	In the mean time, another friend proposed that forty 1st level fighters could take one 20th level fighter, so it looks like I'll be building one of those nest... :D That is nigh-impossible for the 20th level fighter to lose to level 1 fighters... barring divine intervention. Just buy Dwarven plate of heavy fortification to prevent random flukes like 40 critical hits in a row. The DR should also help. Are you using PHBII or other non-Core material? If you are, with Weapon Supremacy, the level 1 fighters can't even grapple you, because you can make full attacks with your weapon while grappled. Get Vampiric Spiked Chain of some sort and a-cleavin' you go. Or snipe at them with distance, returning javelins. Whatever. Ask your friend if what he really meant was "40 thousand 1st level fighters"... maybe then they could pool their pathetic 1st level wealth to buy something that might tickle you before they all die.
Pangeon 09-25-06, 05:15 PM	You can't take immediate actions while flat-footed. Thus, the celerity has to be contingent (either through the spell or the Item type) for it to be any use. Without that, you have to win initiative straight up. Really? Where's the rules for immediate actions? If you can't, feats and items that allow re-rolls combined with a high Dex and improved initiative should help here. Ask your friend if what he really meant was "40 thousand 1st level fighters"... maybe then they could pool their pathetic 1st level wealth to buy something that might tickle you before they all die. That's my thoughts exactly.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 09-25-06, 05:39 PM	with drawn. Moot point.
PhaedrusXY 09-25-06, 07:09 PM	This is from the hypertext SRD, which is supposed to be exactly like the "real" SRD, except that it incorporates erratas, and is organized into an easy access format: Immediate Actions Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time. Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
Pyke_Moonshadow 09-26-06, 07:52 AM	What book is Celerity from?
Dwarven_Jihad 09-26-06, 02:31 PM	I don't normally play high-level casters, so the rules about metamagic at that point get vague to me...can someone clarify for me how one goes about casting a sudden maximized time stop? Isn't that the equivalent of something like a 16th-level spell slot?
PhaedrusXY 09-26-06, 02:47 PM	I don't normally play high-level casters, so the rules about metamagic at that point get vague to me...can someone clarify for me how one goes about casting a sudden maximized time stop? Isn't that the equivalent of something like a 16th-level spell slot?No, it is a 9th level spell slot. The Sudden feats do not modify the level of spellslot required to cast spells they are used on, nor are they restricted by the level the spell "should" take up, if it were a normal and not Sudden metamagic feat. You can also use a Greater Rod of Maximize Spell to do the same thing without a feat (but it is expensive).
Dwarven_Jihad 09-26-06, 03:20 PM	Yeah, found my Complete Arcane to look it up. Pretty much does sound like a "Ruin One Encounter Per Day Free" card when used that way. Haven't had anyone in the group here head that direction with their character, fortunately. I have at least one player that would abuse it until his character got himself lynched by the rest of the party :)
CradleofLife 09-26-06, 06:46 PM	I honestly believe you have agreed to a form of contest that favors the fighter, and that turns on a lot of luck. For him to win, he either has to win initiative or make his saves on all the spells you throw at him during the obligatory 'time stop'. (assuming you throw insta-kills, which I would). For you to win you have to win initiative and hit him with spells for which he does not have items granting him immunity. Really, you should play a "best of 5" contest, with five different arenas. This sphere arena could be one. Some of the others may require a third party to referee. A good "best of five" (1) The sphere arena (2) A dungeon crawl, where you must find a treasure and get it safely back out, with traps and enemies in the way. (3) A hunt, each for the other, though a forest. (4) A battle through a city, with items hidden and guards/townsfolk getting in the way. (5) A battle on three bridges over a rushing river In any event, here are spells that are your friends. 9th level. (1) Time stop. Obviously. (2) Mordenkainen's disjunction, which surpisingly no one has mentioned. As long as you can't "buy" artifacts you should be able to deprive him of items, and a fighter without magic items is much easier prey for a 20th level mage. (3) Prismatic Sphere. Give yourself some breathing room to buff, unless he's that confident he can withstand all seven layers. (4) Gate. Nothing like bringing in something bigger and badder than a fighter. Essentially makes you a party of two vs. his party of one. (5) Imprisonment. One will save, notoriously not a fighter's best, and he's stuck waiting for all eternity until some later mage/cleric/sorcerer frees him. Unfortunately, you need to touch him. Fortunately, in this battle your familiar is expendable. (6) Shapechange. 20th level fighter, meet massive (insert monster of preference here) 8th level (1)Otto's irresistable dance. Upside- no save, he's out of commission for a few rounds, and that -10 reflex save really hurts. Downside- do you want to get close enough to touch him? (2) Maze. No save, and gives you a breather until he makes and intelligence check. (also not usually a fighter's best.) (3) Trap the Soul. Like Imprisonment, especially useful if you establish that the Mage knows the fighter's name. You get a range of 75 ft., instant neutralization, and its a will save. (4) Prismatic Wall. See Prismatic Sphere above. You should be able to block one whole side of the sphere. (5) Polymorph any object. Use it on him (though the fighter's fort save makes it risky) or as a catch all flexible use spell. 7th level (1) Insanity. Unless he has to attack you, it leaves him permanently vulnerable to whatever else you want to throw at him. Also, will save. (2) Forcecage. Reflex save, also probably not his best. Also, so SR in case he has an item that grants it. With bars instead of solid planes of force you can throw spells at him while he can't move. (3) Reverse Gravity. If you are battling on a flat surface with nothing to hold on to this spell is your best friend. He can't save against it, and is essentially unable to move toward you while you hit him with all manner of magical nastiness. Even if there is something to grab, its still a reflex save. (4) Bigby's grasping hand. He can't fight you if he's being grappled by a giant hand. Also try Bigby's crushing hand, taunt him as his ribs are turned to dust.
Plinglebob 09-26-06, 06:53 PM	Just refering back to the guy who suggested bringing in some friends with Gate. My idea would be timestop (dont want any inturruptions) and then set a gate right under his feet. May need to agree a reflex save with a 3rd party but if not, he falls through and you close it as a free action. You can then sit back and wait for any hostile creatures on the other side to rip him to shreads. [Edit] Or if the "Standard equipment" covers a bag of holding and a portable hole, Timestop, put one in the other, give to him and run away before time stop ends.
CryoSilver 09-26-06, 06:56 PM	Key to victory is getting an item that makes you hard and/or impossible to hit. Cloak of Displacement comes to mind.
Sapp 09-26-06, 07:20 PM	The fighter is likely to have Blindfight and/or a Gem of Seeing or some other item fixed to his eye that allows him to see through illusions. I don't like having to rely on a 25% to be missed anyway. The gold could probably be better spent.
not Yoda 09-26-06, 09:03 PM	Funny how almost every one is taking the safe bet and picking ideas for the wizards tactics. I'll give some thought to the fighters .:)
Sapp 09-27-06, 02:13 AM	The fighter's chances would increase dramatically if this were a caged match slathered with Dimensional Locks... Of course, the wizard could always just Disjoin the area. It would be a good idea for the fighter to be optimized for grappling and have a contingent method of setting off Antimagic Field to counter the disjunction.
wackywizjr 09-27-06, 11:50 AM	One word Wish Wish a Harm effect on the fighter to reduce him to 1d4 HP, If he saves vs massive damage, then magic missle the **** out of him...
Pyke_Moonshadow 09-27-06, 12:16 PM	One word Wish Wish a Harm effect on the fighter to reduce him to 1d4 HP, If he saves vs massive damage, then magic missle the **** out of him... I don't think Harm does that any more.
Pangeon 09-27-06, 01:35 PM	I don't think Harm does that any more. No, it only does 10 damage per caster level now (Max 150.) 3.0 Harm was awesome.
wackywizjr 09-27-06, 06:44 PM	You are correct 3.0 did all but 1d4. 3.5 does max 150 and cannot reduce a character below 1 hp. I do not like the way they have weakend all of the wizard spells over the years magic missle is wimpy now when it used to be awsome for a 20th level wizard. Fireball now does a max of 10d6... as it is now a wizard might as well stop progressing at 21st level because he can't get any more powerful spells. So try this use the wish spell to put him outside of the cage where he can no longer get to you then pick him of with every damaging spell you have. A fighter can do more than 100 points of damage with a weapon 1st level Great axe +5 of Flaming Burst/Shocking Burst/Frost on a critical Hit 1d12X3 = 36 1d6 Fire = 6 1d6 Electric = 6 1d6 Cold = 6 2d10 Fire Burst = 20 2d10 Electric Burst = 20 +4 Strength Bonus = 4 (18 strength) Total =109 A wizard can do a max or 60 pts with a fireball at 20th level or wow a whole 25 pts with Magic missle at 20th level.
Thanqol 09-27-06, 08:23 PM	A fighter can do more than 100 points of damage with a weapon 1st level Great axe +5 of Flaming Burst/Shocking Burst/Frost on a critical Hit 1d12X3 = 36 1d6 Fire = 6 1d6 Electric = 6 1d6 Cold = 6 2d10 Fire Burst = 20 2d10 Electric Burst = 20 +4 Strength Bonus = 4 (18 strength) Total =109 A wizard can do a max or 60 pts with a fireball at 20th level or wow a whole 25 pts with Magic missle at 20th level. Congrats! You have sucessfuly demonstrated how a character with 200,000gp worth of equipment can be dangerous. Now, the challenge falls to you to get a DM to give you a +10 equivilent weapon at first level. And a Wizard at 20th level using third level spells? Or first level spells? You're not thinking very hard, are you? Energy Admixtured Empowered Fireball: 8th level spell: 15d6 fire 15d6 sonic 180 or so damage on a max roll?
Paxar 09-27-06, 08:30 PM	A fighter can do more than 100 points of damage with a weapon 1st level Great axe +5 of Flaming Burst/Shocking Burst/Frost on a critical Hit 1d12X3 = 36 1d6 Fire = 6 1d6 Electric = 6 1d6 Cold = 6 2d10 Fire Burst = 20 2d10 Electric Burst = 20 +4 Strength Bonus = 4 (18 strength) Total =109 A wizard can do a max or 60 pts with a fireball at 20th level or wow a whole 25 pts with Magic missle at 20th level. Or... the wizard could do up to 120 dmg plus 60 dmg to up to 20 other targets with a chain lightning. Your argument is flawed on the basis that you're giving a lvl 1 fighter a +10 weapon while only giving a lvl 20 wizard a 3rd or 1st lvl spell. It's just not an equivalent comparison. A 20th lvl wizard is going to have access to spells up to 9th lvl, and a normal 1st lvl fighter is going to have a masterwork weapon if he's lucky. I could further argue that a lvl 1 wizard can do over 100 dmg using your same argument. All he has to do is roll a 20. It doesn't matter that he's not proficient with the weapon or his str isn't as high. My point is that, yeah the lower level wizard spells aren't AS effective at higher levels, but that doesn't mean they're ineffective. If they were as effective at higher levels as they were at lower levels, then you wouldn't need higher level spells.
wackywizjr 09-27-06, 10:38 PM	And a Wizard at 20th level using third level spells? Or first level spells? You're not thinking very hard, are you? Energy Admixtured Empowered Fireball: 8th level spell: 15d6 fire 15d6 sonic 180 or so damage on a max roll? ?!? Exactly which one of the core rule books does energy admixturing come from?!? The point of the above statement was that a fighter is not capped wile a wizard is Now lets take that same weapon and give it to a 20th level fighter that is now 4 attacks that could potentially do more than 400 points of damage. Now let see you, working with the core rule books, make a wizard do 400 points max damage in one round without using instakill spells. Oh and lets remember that most of a wizards attacks people get to save against, you don't get a save against a weapon strike.
wackywizjr 09-27-06, 11:11 PM	Oh and just to add a little bit of irony your Energy admixtured empowered fireball at 8th level can do more points of damage than the 9th level spell Meteor Swarm... Energy admixtured empowered fireball: 15d6 of fire + 15d6 of Sonic Min 30 Max 180 Meteor Swarm 6d6 X 4 Fireballs Min 24 Max 144 So again why would anyone want to use lower powered spells?
Seerow 09-27-06, 11:18 PM	Just refering back to the guy who suggested bringing in some friends with Gate. My idea would be timestop (dont want any inturruptions) and then set a gate right under his feet. May need to agree a reflex save with a 3rd party but if not, he falls through and you close it as a free action. You can then sit back and wait for any hostile creatures on the other side to rip him to shreads. What's this about hostile creatures? Gate him to the Positive Energy Plane and watch as he implodes. Death by Awesome etc.
Thanqol 09-28-06, 12:48 AM	?!? Exactly which one of the core rule books does energy admixturing come from?!? The point of the above statement was that a fighter is not capped wile a wizard is Now lets take that same weapon and give it to a 20th level fighter that is now 4 attacks that could potentially do more than 400 points of damage. Now let see you, working with the core rule books, make a wizard do 400 points max damage in one round without using instakill spells. Oh and lets remember that most of a wizards attacks people get to save against, you don't get a save against a weapon strike. Energy Admixture is Complete Arcane. Okay, let's do Core. Time Stop. Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball. Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball. Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball. Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball. Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball. If Time Stop is about to wear out, use another - even read off a scroll. If we're using Complete Arcane, we've got the Delayed Spell Metamagic too - letting us delay our Cones of Cold etc. What... 80d6 worth of damage? Can make 400. And this is the most silly and standard idea I can think of. Toss in a rod of Maximize Spell or two... we've got hundreds and hundreds of damage. Wizards capped? Hah, you haven't seen Epic Spells. Isn't a save vs. a weapon strike called AC by the way? Or Damage Reduction? Edit: Oh, and we can use a Metamagic rod to Maximize or Empower the Time Stop, or we can Force Cage the Fighter, or Fly, or Prismatic Sphere him...
bitnine 09-28-06, 01:11 AM	Well, here are a couple of things to consider: Have an expended luck blade or ten. Each one allows its possessor (not wielder) to make a reroll, so that does wonders for initiative. Sure, your opponent can buy the same, but he'll probably need more of his wealth to buy gear to cover other basis. And then there's the PHB II conjurer ability, abrupt jaunt. A number of times per day equal to your intellgence modifier, teleport 10 feet as an immediate action. The anti-melee application is quite powerful. Beyond that, varied offensive combinations have already been mentioned.
Thanqol 09-28-06, 01:16 AM	Now let see you, working with the core rule books, make a wizard do 400 points max damage in one round without using instakill spells. Oh and lets remember that most of a wizards attacks people get to save against, you don't get a save against a weapon strike. And again, you're saying "And unbuffed, unprepared Wizard gets into a fight with a Fighter while standing five feet away from him and decides not to use his Instakill spells, *or* his Teleport contengient, in a core only game. The fighter gets lucky, wins initiative, and brings him down." That's a lot of conditions. If one of them changes then Fighter don't stand no chance.
bitnine 09-28-06, 02:15 AM	That's a lot of conditions. If one of them changes then Fighter don't stand no chance.Wells, even given the above as an abstract challenge (make a core wizard that can do 400 damage in one round), I think that between metamagic rods and timestop (and possibly a shapechange into a cloaker, why not), you can probably figure something out.
AnonymousInternets 09-28-06, 02:15 AM	Beforehand... -Pump up your ranged touch attack abilities. A lot. You don't want to miss. -Get Quicken Spell (use it for backup spells) and Empower Spell (for damage boosting). -Get three Rods of Metamagic (Maximize). -Consider the feat Danger Sense (Complete Adventurer), which will let you reroll your initiative once per day. -Take all the Sudden Metamagic feats (Complete Arcane) -Consider flaws to give you extra feats (Unearthed Arcana) -Use venerable age, level up points, and headband to improve your base 18 intelligence. This puts your minimum intelligence at 32. Throw in a tomb or two of +2 int and you'll be set. (Remember--Ioun Stones give the same kind of bonus to Int that the headband does, so they don't stack, which means that ioun stone is pointless here.) -Get Spell Focus (evocation) to make your fireballs harder to dodge. 1. Time stop, maximized via rod, Fly (quickened), Blink (quickened), Haste (quickened), Greater Invisibility (sudden quickened). Move away from him. 2. In your free time, make 5 Empowered, Maximized Delayed Fireballs in his face. Each will deal 180 upon detonation, for a total of 900. Move away while doing this. 3. Once you go into real time, throw Empowered, Maximized Disintegrates at him. You can use 4, and they'll each automatically deal 360 damage on a successful ranged touch attack. Move away while doing this. After 1440 damage from disintegrates and 900 damage from the fireballs, he would have taken 2340 damage, and at that point, he should be dead. Savor your sweet, sweet victory. Things to remember: -Fighters have good fortitude saves. Don't even bother with spells that require a save with such. -Summons are nice, but if he's really, truely pumped up his AC as far as it can go, the summons practically won't be able to hit him. Be weary of this. -He very well might have a ring of see invisibility. Move as far away from him as you can, including vertically.
sudog 09-28-06, 02:48 AM	Hrm. I know that at the higher levels, there really is no beating the Wizard. I've always had the impression that it was around level 12-16 (depending on the type of wizard) where the power imbalance really starts to show as the wizard begins getting all the overpowered spells. However, what about a 10th level sorcerer vs. a 10th level fighter? It seems based on experience playing that the battle is either much more even given standard gear and a fair start or favouring the fighter. Access to spells is quite weak while the fighter is coming into his own in terms of damage dealing. Comments?
PhaedrusXY 09-28-06, 03:02 AM	It would still probably come down to Initiative. The Sorcerer could have Fly + Windwall, making him basically immune to arrows and able to avoid melee. The fighter would need a magic item or flying mount to reach him, both of which would be vulnerable to being dispelled or killed by the sorcerer. Of course, how many times have you seen a real sorcerer take Wind Wall as a spell known? :D Edit: I guess Wind Wall couldn't protect the sorcerer from arrow attacks from directly below him. Hmm...
sudog 09-28-06, 03:13 AM	It would still probably come down to Initiative. The Sorcerer could have Fly + Windwall, making him basically immune to arrows and able to avoid melee. The fighter would need a magic item or flying mount to reach him, both of which would be vulnerable to being dispelled or killed by the sorcerer. Well of course: but if they both were wandering into a battle knowing they were going to fight, and had plenty of time to prepare up to a reasonable GP cost beforehand, I think it's a bit less clear what the outcome would be than with the 20th levels duking it out epic-style. The fighter can pull in a few items to help him out, grab some bolos to tie the wizard up every other round, and charge while the wizard works himself free. Hrm..
PhaedrusXY 09-28-06, 03:31 AM	It is closer, but I'd still give the advantage to the sorcerer, if both characters were built specifically for this kind of 1 on 1 duel. Again, this assumes that the sorcerer at least gets to take one action. If the fighter starts close enough to charge and kill him on the first round, then of course it is pretty much over. 10th level is too early to have a Contingency in place. If I were building the sorcerer, the first thing I'd do is Dimension Door straight up to max range, and cast Feather Fall. That should get me out of range of anything the fighter can do for a few rounds so I could "buff" myself. If you start putting restrictions like the ones on the 20th level duel (enclosed areas, etc), then of course you start skewing things more towards favoring the fighter.
Pyke_Moonshadow 09-28-06, 07:38 AM	With no prep, it does come down to initiative. Plain and simple.
Clawhound 09-28-06, 12:27 PM	I've always found duels way broken. A wizard can fly in a four person party. Three people are left non-flying. It's a nice spell, but not huge. A wizard can fly in a solo encounter. That's a huge advantage, and no one is left grounded. I can go on from there. In short, many spells get completely unbalanced in a duel. These spells just aren't balanced for duels. As to wizards and fireballs. You forget damage multipliction. Your wizard does a measly 60 pts with a fireball, xnumber of opponent in radius. If you catch four targets, you can do 240 points of damage. That's danged nice. If you can catch 10 targets, you do 600 points. It all depends on when and where you throw that fireball.
bitnine 09-28-06, 01:42 PM	It would still probably come down to Initiative.I'm not entirely sure about that. If you're thinking about the folk's chances to win, initiative is probably the largest deciding factor, but that doesn't mean that it's the sole element that the fight boils down to - unless each party reaches a 100% chance to kill/negate the other. For example, for a simplified example, let's the fighter is a charge-monkey and can deal enough damage to kill the wizard with his minimum, while the wizard's got a displacement cloak. So charging, the fighter has a 76% chance to kill the wizard. Whereas the wizard's primary plan could be repeated use of forcecage and quickened spells (including dimension door), focusing on attrition while locking down his opponents actions to repeated use of the helm of teleportation (which he's assuming will be brought to the fight). Now, assuming initiative to be equal, if the wizard's plan and all its permutations thereof have greater than a 76% chance of success [plus the after-1st chances of the fighter], he is more likely to win. If it does not, he is less likely to win. If initiative is not equal, weight accordingly. And with initiative as the greatest contributing factor, the ability to gain initiative is greatly important. Given an expended luck blade stockpile arms race to help win initiative, the question may be highly influenced by who can function with more of their wealth devoted to stealing init. So I suppose if by saying "it comes down to init" you mean "assuming a given party wins init, they are more likely to win" that's probably correct. However, if party A has a 80% chance to win given init and party B has a 60% chance to win given init and the division is 50/50, that idea (while itself accurate) does not stop party A from having a greater chance of victory.
Moon-Lancer 09-28-06, 01:59 PM	call me nuts, but if your level 20, lets assume your exactly level 20, how does one cast wish? would that drop you to level 19? is that possible? This goes on the assumtion that the caster has 5000 xp to spend. i know this is a flawed arguement in a way, but it doesent hurt to try.
Lord_Varos 09-28-06, 08:42 PM	Etherealness out of the sphere. Laugh and enjoy wine and cheese with friends while Fighter starves to unconciousness. Return in a few weeks and CdG your way to a 20th-level Fighter's loot. The drawback of this sort of contest is that part of a Wizard's power is the ability to completely get out of harm's (and Harm's) way, prepare spells, and come back in with both ranged touch attacks blazing. While the Fighter's specialty is forcing itself upon the less melee-focused characters (double entendre, anybody?).
Sapp 09-28-06, 08:45 PM	Etherealness and dimension door would not work if the entire area was dimensional locked. The wizard would need a disjunction first.
Lord_Varos 09-28-06, 08:53 PM	Oh, okay. Sorry.
Sapp 09-28-06, 08:59 PM	No need to apologize. I just wanted to point out something arbitrary. I did say "IF". It's hard to imagine why the wizard would be trapped in a cage match in a small, completely dimensional locked sphere. Of course, it would be a simple balancing point against casters. If there was no lock, the wizard could contingent teleport away and prepare a little more for the battle. Preparation spellcasters gain much more from free time than fighters. The Wizard's still probably not being challenged enough. We'd need half of the sphere to antimagic fielded as well.
Always-Late 09-28-06, 09:33 PM	The Wizard's still probably not being challenged enough. We'd need half of the sphere to antimagic fielded as well.Remember to ban orb spells, too.
Lord_Varos 09-28-06, 09:48 PM	And no readying Gate against a charge secretly. That's just a lame bunch of cheese. And Time Stop is broken, that's out as well. -On a serious note, remember that Quickened stuff can be your friend. Casting two spells per round gets sexy after a couple of rounds, even without Time Stop. -Do everything that AnonymousInternets said to do.
Thanqol 09-28-06, 11:14 PM	And here come the nerfings. Saying: "A wizard without his Orb spells, the Gate spell, half the arena in an antimagic field, and the rest under a Dimensional Lock, without time to prepare, without Time Stop, without Contingients, without any optional sourcebooks, standing five feet away from a fighter without having loaded up on AC buffers, without Insta-Death spells, stands a good chance of losing to a fighter." Doesn't prove anything.
PhaedrusXY 09-28-06, 11:15 PM	Doesn't prove anything.Oh to the contrary. It proves that the fighter doesn't stand a chance against the average unhampered wizard. :D It's like telling Mike Tyson that you could beat him up if he agreed to wear a blindfold and have both his hands tied behind his back. The fact that you even have to ask him to handicap himself so horribly just proves how much more of a badass he is than you.
Thanqol 09-28-06, 11:17 PM	Uhuh. But this example is saying "A fighter can beat a commoner 20".
AnonymousInternets 09-29-06, 12:06 AM	-Do everything that AnonymousInternets said to do. I'm glad somebody read my post.:D
The Simbul 09-29-06, 01:26 AM	A friend of mine has argued with me that a (properly made,) Fighter 20 could defeat a Wizard 20 in a one on one duel. I called him a fool, and we agreed to each build our 20th level characters and battle them. The conditions, so far: 20th level. Elite Array stats. Human. No multi/prestige classing. Standard equipment for a 20th level character.The characters should not recieve a default starting level. They should recieve a default starting XP total, to account for any XP lost in item creation or the casting of any spells that still benefit the character, as per the guidelines for creating characters above 1st level on page 199 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. If the Wizard character crafts any or all of their magic items, which in turn can effectively double their gear, or casts any XP component spells whose effects would bear on the combat scenario (permanency and spells cast upon himself/herself, wish spells to boost ability scores), which can boost their combat effectiveness, then any XP costs accrued should be deducted from the default starting total, and their new level determined as such. A 20th level character begins play with 760,000gp in wealth. If all of the Wizard character's current possessions are self-crafted magic items, and the same wizard has used wish spells/scolls to boost his INT to +5, then that is enough to drop his XP total by 55,440 XP. If both players are assigned 200,000XP, which is enough to be halfway to 21st level, then the loss of that much XP in item creation and spell components will be enough to drop the Wizard down to 17th level. If we assume they were only assigned only just enough XP to bring a normal character to 20th level (190,000), then factoring in those costs means the Wizard is actually 16th level.
Sapp 09-29-06, 03:27 AM	The Simbul, In disjoint campaigns, that may be true, but with two PCs from the same campaign, a lower-leveled character will receive more XP from an encounter. It's very rare that a PC would be more than two levels lower than another. Two-level differences are already uncommon. Otherwise, I agree with your analysis, because it's impossible to account for everything, and XP is a difficult and highly subjective topic to deal with. I just wanted to point out why scribing scrolls, crafting items (and contingencies), and expending XP on spells isn't as gimped as your analysis makes it appear. (Level 16 vs level 20 is unreasonable/unrealistic.)
Lord_Varos 09-29-06, 11:49 PM	As the Wizard in this battle, you have the very distinct advantage of knowing exactly how your opponent is going to play. He'll try to make himself immune to your best spells and go for the full-front melee. If he goes ranged, he's an idiot and will be annihilated briefly thereafter. If he doesn't make himself immune to mind-affecting, it'lll be one short battle. Remember, you can expect every move he's going to make, because he'll only make one: get close to you and take full attacks. All in all, Wizard 20's are better than Fighter 20's in almost any battle scenario, except the one described by Thanqol. And I still think Teleporting out is a valid strategy. You cannot defeat what you cannot catch, and you can't catch a ****ing Wizard.
concerro 09-30-06, 12:14 AM	Oh and just to add a little bit of irony your Energy admixtured empowered fireball at 8th level can do more points of damage than the 9th level spell Meteor Swarm... Energy admixtured empowered fireball: 15d6 of fire + 15d6 of Sonic Min 30 Max 180 Meteor Swarm 6d6 X 4 Fireballs Min 24 Max 144 So again why would anyone want to use lower powered spells? you didn't include the 8d6 from bludgeoning damage min 32 max 192
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 09-30-06, 12:19 AM	Is there any reason that the fighter couldn't have a Permanent Anti-Magic Field up, and couldn't be using ToB maneuvers?
Sapp 09-30-06, 12:44 AM	Is there any reason that the fighter couldn't have a Permanent Anti-Magic Field up, and couldn't be using ToB maneuvers? 1. It's expensive and is actually an impractical item. A use-activated antimagic field would make more sense. 2. They are starting at about 50 ft distance away from each other. If the item granted permanent antimagic field, then the fighter would not be able to benefit from contingent magic effects, his winged boots, helm of teleportation, etc, etc. Note that antimagic field does not work against wall of force. The Wizard would be the automatic winner. He can work himself out of the cage (first by disjoining the dimensional locks) and better prepare himself to deal with this fighter. The fighter's main advantage in this situation was that the wizard wasn't as prepared.
bitnine 09-30-06, 05:44 AM	Note to self: make a magical item with a continuous magical effect that can function within an antimagic field. That magical effect? Generating an antimagic field.
trapspringer 09-30-06, 09:17 PM	So has this happened yet?
Sapp 09-30-06, 09:25 PM	So has this happened yet? Those who were arguing in favor of the fighter gave up. They are now arguing that forty 1st-level fighters can beat a 20th-level Fightaur. What's next? That a tarrasque can take down a Solar Archangel?
shinjinbukai 10-01-06, 03:22 AM	Fighter 20 wins. Great cleave. my :twocents: quite literaly
Roivas 10-01-06, 03:47 AM	Of course, how many times have you seen a real sorcerer take Wind Wall as a spell known? :D I actually had a player take the spell as soon as he could. His sorcerer liked to hang back and lob spells, but he didn't like when creatures with ranged attacks started readying actions to shoot him while he was casting a spell, so he became arrow proof.
Psionx 10-01-06, 04:54 AM	?!? Exactly which one of the core rule books does energy admixturing come from?!? The point of the above statement was that a fighter is not capped wile a wizard is Now lets take that same weapon and give it to a 20th level fighter that is now 4 attacks that could potentially do more than 400 points of damage. Now let see you, working with the core rule books, make a wizard do 400 points max damage in one round without using instakill spells. Oh and lets remember that most of a wizards attacks people get to save against, you don't get a save against a weapon strike. timestop+delayed blast fireball+delayed blast fireball+delayed blast fireball+delayed blast fireball+run really far away 20d6=120 20d6=120 20d6=120 20d6=120 480 maximize em or if you are meaning with max luck 180 X 4 =720 from page 3, just couldn't help it EDIT: Didn't even read to the bottom of the page lolz! Was already posted. On a seperate matter... How would a 1st level fighter do against a 20th lvl commoner in hand to hand unarmored combat?
HamHam 10-01-06, 11:55 AM	On a seperate matter... How would a 1st level fighter do against a 20th lvl commoner in hand to hand unarmored combat? Does he have a weapon or Imp Unarmed Attack? Edit: nm, he's level 1? Yeh, he's screwed.
Pyke_Moonshadow 10-01-06, 12:24 PM	Those who were arguing in favor of the fighter gave up. We did? Hmmm, I was of the mind that all the pro -fighter guys agreed that it still came down to intiative and we had yet to see an arguement that disproved that.
HamHam 10-01-06, 12:34 PM	We did? Hmmm, I was of the mind that all the pro -fighter guys agreed that it still came down to intiative and we had yet to see an arguement that disproved that. Contingent Celerity disproved it.
Pangeon 10-01-06, 03:32 PM	So has this happened yet? No, and I don't think it will. After showing him this thread, he gave up. They are now arguing that forty 1st-level fighters can beat a 20th-level Fightaur. What's next? That a tarrasque can take down a Solar Archangel? Actually, the current one is whether a 8th level fighter with 16th level gear could beat a 16th level fighter with only a quarterstaff. This one I'm actually curious about. :rolleyes:
HamHam 10-01-06, 04:57 PM	Actually, the current one is whether a 8th level fighter with 16th level gear could beat a 16th level fighter with only a quarterstaff. This one I'm actually curious about. :rolleyes: Um... Necklace of Fireballs?
Sapp 10-01-06, 05:01 PM	If this was a caged match with no room to fly, then the 8th level fighter wins by default for having Winged Boots.
Necropolitan 10-01-06, 05:03 PM	Reminds me of something we did in our 5th-Epic campaign. Our Group Mage (My sister, oddly enough) and The Group Fighter (Me) didn't get along to well. So out of game, we wondered what it'd be like if they went toe to toe. It really came down to one thing. We spaced them the normal charge-distence apart, and it came right down to him failing his first save. The Mage *HAD* to get that first attack to hit, which would have obliterated him (She was fond of Death effects, like Weird and such). But if he made his save, she was totally dead. His feat Setup included Dire Charge, and good-christ. We figured out of those five attacks, with his 18-20 critical (Fullblade and Imp.crit) Coupled with his Devastating Critical feat... she'd survive at most, the first two hits before she was utterly mutilated beyond recognition. At high levels it really comes down to that; can you kill the fighter before he get's a chance to beat your FACE in?
Sapp 10-01-06, 05:13 PM	This was Epic? Yet again, I'm reminded why I don't take pro-fighter arguments very seriously... To go into more detail, basically to have had a chance against the Epic wizard, the epic fighter would need: 1. The Epic wizard to not be buffed. 2. The Epic wizard to lack contingencies. 3. The Epic wizard be prevented from teleporting away. 4. The casters of the party to have generously shared their epic rituals. 5. The DM to temporarily ban Gate. 6. To be able to plane shift. 7. To know exactly where the caster is at all times, in all planes. 8. To be within charging distance. 9. To be in the right terrain to be able to charge. 10. Both the caster and the familiar (via Shared Spell familiar feature) to not be in shapechanged form, even though it lasts for hours. 10. ... the list keeps going.
molten_dragon 10-01-06, 07:27 PM	Basing this on the rules as they were originally written, here is what I would do as the fighter. 1. Get my initiative as high as humanly possible. This won't be the deciding factor, but it will help. 2. Get a custom magic item that makes a permanent antimagic field centered on myself. This will take away about 99% of what a wizard can do. Even a disjunction will only get rid of it 20% of the time. In fact, since multiple antimagic fields don't effect each other, get a couple of items, then it's even harder to disjoin them. 3. Have a masterwork mighty composite longbow (+4 STR to damage) and a quiver of +5 human bane, shocking burst, explosive arrows. They will once again become magical when they leave the area of the antimagic field. With greater weapon focus you can do an average of 26 damage per hit, and with rapid shot you can fire 5 arrows a round, for 130 average damage if they all hit. At this point, it's just a matter of luck. If the wizard can disjoin the antimagic field item(s), the fighter will lose. If not, the fighter can simply wait until the wizard runs out of protective spells, and then peck away at him with arrows until he dies. I also realize that this tactic can be countered (having tons of scrolls of disjunction, an item that grants permanent greater invisibility, etc.) but that's not really the point. The point is that without prior knowledge of what the fighter was going to do, it's unlikely that the wizard would prepare properly to counter this particular tactic. The wizard could also simply teleport away, however that's not really in the spirit of the duel. The point isn't to escape, the point is to kill your opponent. In any kind of normal combat situation the wizard will win almost every time (luck is a factor), however, in this kind of ritual duel a fighter has a decent shot at coming out on top.
Psionx 10-02-06, 02:33 AM	well, the only problem with that is that the wizard isn't prohibited from teleporting out... now how to beat the fighter (remember its a 100 by 100 or something stone arena which is unworked I might add, transmute rock to mud multiple times until there is very little space with a wall of force in a globe around you, now teleport out of there and wait for the fighter to drown. 20th lvl commoner unarmed, 1st lvl fighter with a gauntlet (non-spiked)?
PhaedrusXY 10-02-06, 03:41 AM	You can't cast Wall of Force in the shape of a globe anymore (you could in 3.0). You also can't cast spells through a Wall of Force. However, Forcecage could do exactly what you're wanting. The fighter might hit you with some arrows, however. (You could block these with a cylinder shaped Windwall around you cast from inside the Forcecage, though). Also, what happens if the Fighter has an item that lets him Fly? (Which he certainly should have...) Prismatic Sphere would be the thing to cast on yourself vs. the Antimagic Archer. It isn't affected by Antimagic Field, and it would block his arrows. If he tried to pass through it, he'd almost certainly fail some save or another.
Sapp 10-02-06, 04:14 AM	Forcecage's bars are half an inch apart. I'm not sure if an arrow could get through. Also, I already mentioned how the permanent antimagic field is a handicap for the fighter. No more contingent items for him... Wizard automatically gets the first move. He disjoins whatever is keeping him in there and teleports away, giving him time to deal with the fighter. Fighter loses by default. He can do anything to kill the fighter. Keep dropping shrunken boulders on him or something. Even if the wizard neglected to trigger them to turn back into the correct size, the boulders expand when they hit the antimagic field. Too bad the fighter can't chase the flying wizard unless he tosses away his antimagic field item, which cost him a fortune. Antimagic field is not Kryptonite. It hurts the fighter almost as much as it hurts the wizard.
Pyke_Moonshadow 10-02-06, 07:26 AM	Contingent Celerity disproved it. If you are talking about a crafted contingent spell, the fighter can have the same thing can he not?
angryman 10-02-06, 08:06 AM	The wizard wins, 95% of the time. There's no two ways about it. IF the fighter is specifically designed around killing wizards, has specialised incredibly for this, spent half of his money for this, he has a chance, but not a great one IF the wizard is a 'generic' wizard. However, sorry, no, the wizard wins almost every time. "But if I do this and that and then pull out this, then the wizard is in trouble." As I said, IF you've twinked your fighter out to kill a wizard, I will concede that he has a slim chance of winning. Otherwise, goodnight. Oh and against a skilled wizard, not a chance.
molten_dragon 10-02-06, 08:49 AM	Like I said in my post, the point of my strategy is not that the wizard can't counter it. That's what makes wizards so great, they can counter almost anything if they know it's coming and have time to deal with it. The point is that if this duel were actually taking place, it's unlikely that the wizard would have the spells prepared to deal with it. And as far as effects like forcecage and prismatic sphere go, there's no reason the fighter can't just wait until they run out and go back to sniping at the wizard.
bitnine 10-02-06, 10:31 AM	20th lvl commoner unarmed, 1st lvl fighter with a gauntlet (non-spiked)?Poor Fighter, about to be beaten to death by an oxymoron. A 'Level 20' (exceptional to the point of being legendary) 'commoner' (completely unexceptional)...The point is that if this duel were actually taking place, it's unlikely that the wizard would have the spells prepared to deal with it.Neat. Are we adding that the wizard doesn't know that a duel is happening (to prepare a proper spellset for the day) but the fighter does (loading up on multiple continuous antimagic items which apparently continue to function inside antimagic) to the conditions list? Hm, could we also assign the wizard a congenital heart defect? I think that'd be fun.And as far as effects like forcecage and prismatic sphere go, there's no reason the fighter can't just wait until they run out and go back to sniping at the wizard.I dunno, I don't think that sitting back and waiting in a forcecage seems like a good idea. "Hey, why's that wizard casting a wall of stone around the forcecage? What's he got now - what's he doing with a bunch of decanters of endless water?" (Seriously, though, what on earth makes you think that waiting out a spell that lasts for 40 hours is a good {or even viable} idea? An opponent could take a vacation from the battle, go off to a resort for a little while, confer with some colleagues, rememorize spells, and then come back with time to spare with another forcecage prepared. Hell, if he put his back into it, he could probably bury his opponent with a shovel and some elbow grease if the opponent's big plan was to wait out forcecages, confident in his antimagic 'invincibility'. )
der_gogo 10-02-06, 02:50 PM	Ok, so I pose a challenge to all Fighter lovers: I build a lvl 20 wizard under the rules that were posted in the first post, i post it here and give tactics for him. Then you build a Fighter 20 and post tactics that can reasonably defeat my wizard. Does someone accept the challenge? But I only own the Core Books, so we need to stick only to those. (This also means only magic items that are in the DMG.)
Sapp 10-02-06, 02:54 PM	If you are talking about a crafted contingent spell, the fighter can have the same thing can he not? Not if he has a permanent antimagic field item "protecting" him. Even a use-activated antimagic field item one would not work. When is he going to activate it? Before or during his celerity round?
Pyke_Moonshadow 10-02-06, 03:08 PM	Not if he has a permanent antimagic field item "protecting" him. Even a use-activated antimagic field item one would not work. When is he going to activate it? Before or during his celerity round? I know I wouldn't want a permanent antimagic field on my fighter. *shiver* Now, a mantle of epic spell resistance would be nice.
Psionx 10-02-06, 03:31 PM	Ok, so I pose a challenge to all Fighter lovers: I build a lvl 20 wizard under the rules that were posted in the first post, i post it here and give tactics for him. Then you build a Fighter 20 and post tactics that can reasonably defeat my wizard. Does someone accept the challenge? But I only own the Core Books, so we need to stick only to those. (This also means only magic items that are in the DMG.) I have unearthed arcana+the core books and I could take a stab at it, but I've never actually played a game against someone so I might not be the best choice. But the question is: how many hit points does a fighter have by lvl 20? 10*20=200+(6*20)=320, but the world isn't perfect initiative disjoin, quick time stop max delay blast fireball=mdbf 4 mdbf's in a row under time stop at worst with all saves successful thats 480/2=240
Sapp 10-02-06, 03:51 PM	I know I wouldn't want a permanent antimagic field on my fighter. *shiver* Now, a mantle of epic spell resistance would be nice. Yeah, Antimagic field items are overestimated, in my opinion. In duels, they don't necessarily help you win. In normal D&D games, they get your fighter killed fast. You spend about 120,000 gold on one. Then, you activate it when you're up against a high level challenge? Perhaps a Horned Devil? Great, you've just given him a perfect defense against your allies, and shut down your own freedom of movement. Your strength also drops by about 6 from your loss of magic items. That horned devil grapples you and drags you into a nearby lava pit. None of your allies can hurt him either, because no one's "nonmagic items" can penetrate the devil's DR. It's like a death sentence. I don't understand the popularity of antimagic field items. Some people try to make it sound like a mandatory item for fighters to have. I've seen and used antimagic field defensively in heavy spell battles, but mostly to counter mordenkainen's disjunction from NPC mages the PCs are sure to face. It's triggered (and single use, so it doesn't cost 120,000 gp...). Not something you activate yourself (wasting an action to do so) before going to pound on monsters. It's not permanent, either.
notafinger 10-04-06, 01:22 PM	Ok I agree, what if it wasn't a duel? What if you just wanted to give your fighter based character an edge so the higher level wizards wouldn't have such an advantage. What would be some good tactics? Im relatively inexperienced and would like some advice. My 6th level character is developing nicely what items should I be looking for to give me a chance when dealing with the wizard as we ascend in levels?
Sapp 10-04-06, 06:25 PM	So, why do you want to compete against this wizard? Is he someone on your team, or is it a bad guy?
HeroOfthePeople 10-04-06, 06:35 PM	so wait, the fighter won?
notafinger 10-07-06, 03:49 PM	he is on my team. We are an evil campaign so its an interesting scenario. I just need some ideas to keep things on a neutral playing field and also some useful ideas against other wizards we have run into in combat also. the will save is a killer. Flying is a problem but can be dealt with I've thought about some silence effects but that can be circumvented or possibly some type of dispel magic. Any thoughts?
Sapp 10-08-06, 03:26 AM	We have no parameters to work with. You should provide more information about your campaign so that the kind people on the WotC forums can help.
notafinger 10-08-06, 10:56 AM	Ok, I don't want to engage the wizard in my party. In any Evil campaign it can be difficult to keep the group together. Initially it was rocky. We have been working toward some unified goals which has helped. I'd like a couple of ideas of combat tactics if you had a fighter or non magic user character in dealing with wizards or spell casters at higher levels. ie.. If i can deal with other wizards we run into I get a little more street credit when dealing with him in roleplaying. Especially now that we are gaining levels at 6th level its not a problem. But soon it will be. I know I will need mgk items to assist me. But I am not as well read on all of the tomes of the game to know whats out there or if I did how to use it to the best of my advantage. I don't know enough to give you specifics, like if in this scenario he were to do this how would I counter? Im just looking for in general, what are some ways to effectively defend or prepare a fighter based charater against a Wizard. Some good defenses some good attacks. What are your thoughts? I know its broad general question but work with me.
PhaedrusXY 10-08-06, 06:42 PM	Check out the "Mage Killer" link in my signature. You can find links inside that thread to a couple of other threads on basically the same topic.