Fighter/Sorcerer Multiclass = Bad idea? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fighter/Sorcerer Multiclass = Bad idea? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arthur_Pendragon
03-14-04, 02:50 PM I've heard said that some multiclass combinations aren't very good ideas for character playability and surviveablitiy.

For example, I've heard the wizard 10/sorcerer 10 multiclass is a bad idea because you end up with lots of low level spells, but no high level spells, and a really sucky chance at beating high level enemies Spell Resistances.

Because of stuff like this, I've always played single class PCs feeling if I multiclass I just end up sucking by the time I get to high levels, because I'm not as good as the single class character in either abilities.

However, for once I'm toying with playing a fighter sorcerer, but I need some suggestions/encouragement, as to why (or why not) I should play a multiclass like that?

Another thing is, we are planning to play far into epic levels, when I reach 10 Fighter/10 Sorcerer and gain my first epic level do I have to start taking epic levels in fighter (which gain feats slower than if I had been a single class fighter?) In other words, when I hit 21st level, do I just take a level of fighter and treat it like I just became an 11th level fighter (who also has 10 levels of wizard) or do I follow the epic level charts and gain feats at a slower rate :(
SmiloDan
03-14-04, 04:05 PM Probably what you want to consider is the Eldritch Knight PrC, which gives you a Fighter BAB, good Fort saves, 1d6 HD, a bonus feat at 1st level and 9 caster levels there after. Maybe a Fighter 1 or 2/Sorcerer 8 or 9/Eldritch Knight 10? That would get you 17 or 18 levels of spellcasting, and 2 or 3 bonus fighter feats.

In the past I used to multiclass exclusively, but I've changed my tune recently. I currently play an Elf Druid Archer/Scout 8, a Vow of Poverty Monk Diplomat/Mobile Tank 5, and Dwarf Ranger 3/fighter 1. And a dirty cop/ex-con/gov't agent Charismatic 4/Tough 1.

In the past, I played a 3.0 human cleric 6/paladin 2 and a 3.0 halfling ranger 2/rogue 7, but those were early in my 3.0/3.5 career... Before I knew about PrCs and Min/Maxing. The halfling should have been a ranger 1/rogue 7/duelist 1 in the 3.0 rules. Oh, well.
Heron_Marked_Blade
03-14-04, 06:43 PM Your biggest problem as a fighter/sorcerer is going to be the arcane spell failure of your armor (in addition to the slowed spell progression). You'll want to take care of that by perhaps taking the Spellsword PrC (grants -10% ASF at 1st level and alternating spell progression, i.e. 5 spellcasting levels) and/or the Bladesinger PrC (can cast in light/medium armor without ASF).

Regarding Epic levels, you can't take levels in an Epic core class unless you already have 20 levels in that class. So your 21st character level (assuming Fighter 10/Sorcerer 10) would be the 11th level of whichever class you choose. You'd gain all abilities of that class level (BAB, saves, skills, bonus feats/spellcasting). If you took another fighter level at 22nd character level (i.e. 12th level fighter), you wouldn't be able to choose an Epic feat with your 12th-level bonus fighter feat, although you would be able to choose Epic feats with the feats you receive every three levels (i.e. at 21st, 24th, 27th, etc).
ninjarabbit
03-14-04, 07:35 PM The problem with a 10 fighter/10 sorcerer build is that you're neither a good fighter or sorcerer. Your BAB is 15, only an average BAB, your hps on average will be slighter better than a bard or rogue, but slightly worse than a cleric, ranger, or druid. Being only a 10th level sorcerer is a joke when you're going to be fighting epic level monsters.

Your best bet is to take levels of spellsword and/or Eldritch Knight. I'd go fighter1/sor8/ek10/ss1, you'd have a BAB of 16, a caster level of 18 allowing you to cast 9 level spell(s), and have a reduction of 10% to your ACF, enough for leather armor or mithral chain shirt, better will and fortitude saves, and only a little less hp on average.
Teh Lurv
03-14-04, 08:26 PM I would suggest taking a look at the Hexblade Class in the Complete Warrior. They are basically the arcane version of the Ranger or Paladin class. Full BAB, ability to cast in armor, and limited spellcasting progression. In addition, it can take take certain PrCs, like the Dragon Disciple, that require arcane spellcasting.
Aerk
03-14-04, 08:57 PM Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade

Regarding Epic levels, you can't take levels in an Epic core class unless you already have 20 levels in that class. So your 21st character level (assuming Fighter 10/Sorcerer 10) would be the 11th level of whichever class you choose. You'd gain all abilities of that class level (BAB, saves, skills, bonus feats/spellcasting). If you took another fighter level at 22nd character level (i.e. 12th level fighter), you wouldn't be able to choose an Epic feat with your 12th-level bonus fighter feat, although you would be able to choose Epic feats with the feats you receive every three levels (i.e. at 21st, 24th, 27th, etc).

A character's base save and base attack bonus do not continue to progress normally in Epic Levels. They are replaced by an Epic Attack Bonus and Epic Save bonus; see 'Epic Level Basics' in the most recent SRD for the exact numbers. Therefore, a wizard 10/fighter 10 who becomes a Wizard 10 / Fighter 11 gains a +1 Epic Attack Bonus, but their BaB is still +15; they will only get 3 attacks per round, unless they use a spell or item that grants BaB (like Divine Power, for instance).

Also:

Whenever an epic character is allowed to pick up a feat as part of character level advancement, he or she can choose either a nonepic feat or an epic feat. All class descriptions provide a list of bonus feats that characters must choose from. When a character has to choose from a list of bonus feats in the second class, he or she can also choose from the bonus epic feats described for each specific class.

So, at wizard 10/fighter 12 the character could choose either a fighter bonus feat or an epic fighter bonus feat.

If you want to do a Fighter/Sorcerer Multiclass with an eye for epic levels, make sure the end result has at least a +16 BaB. The lack of 4 attacks per round can really start to sting after a while. For more info on possible builds, check out the Comprehensive Gish thread in the Character Optimization forum.
Galahad the Pure
03-14-04, 10:40 PM The question you should be asking yourself is, do you want to be a (1) fighter who can cast some spells or a (2) spellcaster who can do some fighting?

If option 2 is what you're going for, Eldritch Knight is your friend, and don't lose any caster levels where you don't need to. Take a full 10 levels in EK so you can use its epic progression when you get there. (I'm not sure if there is an official one, but it probably gets a bonus feat every 3 levels.)

If you're more entertained by option 1, it's OK to lose a few caster levels, because this build will shun spells like fireball in favor of displacement. Enlarge person, shield, stoneskin, all these will be your best assets. This type of build might me trickier to pull off, but personally, I would find it more satisfying to do this effectively. You might consider investing more levels in spellsword, and the real key will be finding a class or prestige class that complements a few levels of arcane spellcasting. Which class you go with really depends a lot on what style of melee you're geared for. This is a path that doesn't seem to get a lot of attention on these boards, which I think is a shame because I'd like to see it done, if possible.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Under option 1, you might have less epic options if you can't get into anything's epic progression. You can rectify the situation by finding an epic prestige class to get into. Too bad there are almost none out there for this type of build.
Heron_Marked_Blade
03-14-04, 11:09 PM Thanks for that catch, Aerk. That should teach me to read up before I post. ;)
Aerk
03-15-04, 12:46 AM You are quite welcome, the revised SRD does help clear a few things up, but a lot of stuff is buried in the various documents.

You also helped me out, as it turns out Epic Level characters who multiclassed and didn't finish an arcane caster progression can still gain new spells known/spells per day. Thus, if the wiz10/fighter10 became a wiz11/fighter10, he would have the spells known/spells per day of a wiz11. I suppose this makes a lot more sense then what I previously thought, as otherwise, it would seriously limit a mutliclass character.
Arthur_Pendragon
03-15-04, 10:30 AM What I was really planning/aiming for when I asked this question, was that I'm creating a character I largely want to be a sorcerer who wields a longsword (and who can wield it well (aka decent attack bonus) but he doesn't want to replace the party fighter (has no interest in all those feats or being up to par with the fighter) just able to fight decently if he gets forced into close combat (or *shrugs* at least look impressive ;)).

Would it be too uber to replace the first level feat in the Eldritch Knight with an additional spells per level increase instead? (the reason why I ask is, again, I'm more interesting it keeping up in the sorcerer's skills rather than the fighters).
Heron_Marked_Blade
03-15-04, 11:22 AM I've had problems with that first level of Eldritch Knight. I don't understand why the first level doesn't grant spellcasting, but the other 9 do. Do any other PrCs do that? I wouldn't have a problem with removing that bonus feat and giving 10 levels of spellcasting. You have d6 HD, 2+Int skill points, 7/3/3 saves, fighter BAB, and no special abilities other than spellcasting progression. Not a problem, IMO.
danielinthewolvesden
03-15-04, 12:37 PM Take a couple levels of Paladin. Pally/sorc works well. Concentrate on Sorc. Or, like many have said- go for Eldrich Knight.

Of course, in theory, a Bard is "a sorceror who wields a longsword". It is to laugh.:rolleyes:
danielinthewolvesden
03-15-04, 12:40 PM Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade
I've had problems with that first level of Eldritch Knight. I don't understand why the first level doesn't grant spellcasting, but the other 9 do. Do any other PrCs do that?

It is there to stop the PrC from becoming too powerful.
bahamut_0
03-15-04, 12:49 PM Definately go Eldritch Knight, they kick ass.

I wouldn't have a problem substituting the bonus feat for an extra level of spellcasting, it seems a fair trade.
Arthur_Pendragon
03-15-04, 02:01 PM Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden
Take a couple levels of Paladin. Pally/sorc works well. Concentrate on Sorc. Or, like many have said- go for Eldrich Knight.

Of course, in theory, a Bard is "a sorceror who wields a longsword". It is to laugh.:rolleyes:

I can't really do the Sorcerer/Paladin thing . . . you see Galen (the character) is well. . . how to put this . . . morally impared. . . *laughs at himself*. . . he is Lawful Evil . . . and a devil (part devil, mostly devil) . . . and in my setting (I'm DM too, I play a DMPC cause my wife is my only other player . . . and she hates solo games) . . . however I remeber a Dragon Magazine has a LE variant of the Paladin (and that would be nice to take instead of just some mere level of fighter) . . . only trouble is in the setting it's the forces of Hell vs the gods so beings like Galen have no gods to gain power from. I guess I could explain the paladin like powers as coming from the same source as his sorcererous abilities, his magical devil blood. hmmm.... but what do you think of doing a (LE Paladin) 1/ Sor 9/Eldritch Knight 10? Or how to explain such a route?

Also the name Eldritch Knight doesn't fit with the character concept I'm doing, can anybody think of a different name? (Sorcererous Lord for a alternate name?)
Tony Vargas
03-15-04, 02:46 PM Well, if you want a fairly conventional sorcerer who can swing a sword well, EK is pretty good. You lag a spell-level behind, but, you get full BAB for 10 levels, and d6 hps. With a Fighter 1/Sorcerer9/EK10, at 20th level, you get the same 15 BAB as with the fighter10/Sorcerer10, but you're casting as an 18th level sorcerer (though you do miss out on 5 bonus feats, and ~15 hps).

If you wanted to do an evenly-advancing Sorcerer/Fighter you could, and could even be effective. You'd just have to give up on trying to punch through SR or using offensive save-neg spells at some point. That's not actually that impractical - defensive, buffing, and misc spells could help make you a quite effective.
crazysamaritan
03-15-04, 02:54 PM def. check out the gith thread.

And remember, PCs never have to say what class they are. Recall the 3.0 rog2/sor8/virtuoso10 "bard"
danielinthewolvesden
03-15-04, 05:44 PM Then do a hexblade. Perfect!
Teh Lurv
03-15-04, 08:17 PM Well if you want to be a sorc with some combat capabilities in 3.5e, a good build is:

Sorc6/Fighter1/Spellsword1/Eldrith Knight 10/Archmage2

You lose two caster lvls, but you get all four attacks, good hp, and a -10% off the arcane spell failure of any armor you wear. Put on a Mithral Chainshirt and you will be a pretty good light fighter.
DrWorm
03-15-04, 08:25 PM Also look in to Battle Sorcerer in Unearthed Arcana.
UZI
03-15-04, 10:05 PM If you go for a sorcerer/fighter, make sure you use downtime to craft wands and potions. They are not subject to arcane failure. This limits you to 4th level spells, but what the heck, at 10th level you're not going much beyond that anyway. There are also a number of materials in the Arms and Equipment Guide that have lower arcane failure%.

You may never be the best sorcerer, but with enough self-buff spells, the occasional wand zap, and a Tenser's transformation, you can be a fairly formidable fighter.

Overall, if you want to cast and fight, choose a cleric (or multi-class with a cleric/fighter), and make sure you keep a Divine Power handy.
Arthur_Pendragon
03-15-04, 11:18 PM Originally posted by DrWorm
Also look in to Battle Sorcerer in Unearthed Arcana.

*sigh*...makes me want to go see it now...*grumble grumble*

Now I'm torn...I really want to focus on the sorcerer aspect...I've already got an ECL +2 ... (from various abilities, one of which is a Dominate Person gaze attack...still deciding on wether or not to keep it...)

So I want to keep up the Sorcerer levels up....

SO Eldritch Knight sounds like a good route...unless this Battle Sorcerer from UA is good?????

I know some have said it would be ok to replace level of spell casting ability for feat, though I've heard at least one dissenting vote...so what does everyone think?
Guillaume777
03-16-04, 12:31 AM Originally posted by Arthur_Pendragon

I know some have said it would be ok to replace level of spell casting ability for feat, though I've heard at least one dissenting vote...so what does everyone think?

If you put full spell casting progression then you are basically playing a Sorcerer with fighter BAB and d6 for hps......
tarkin
03-16-04, 12:56 AM Some of you are talking as if you never played a fighter/Sorceror Build.

I have seen people play them. They can be very very powerfull.

The trick is NOT to go for fireball, but instead for Greater Magic Weapon.

Do NOT go for scorching Ray, go for Bull Strength.

Make similar choices for spells known, using the magic to help you become a better fighter, and it can work very well.

Then the only problem is armor. So what. You took Mage Armor as a spell and use a Mithril Shield. The ASF chance is small.

Yes Spell Sword/blade siner stuff is a good choice as well.

It should be noted that the ranger/Sorceror, Barbarian/Sorceror or monk/Sorceror are easier to do than a fighter/Sorcerror, in part because you will not have as much temptation to get armor.
Arthur_Pendragon
03-16-04, 02:29 AM *sigh*... I guess that's my problem, as I definately was not out to create a sorcerer whose spell compliment a fighter, merely good usage with a sword (I said good, as opposed to superb as the fighter gets with all his feats), heck, I'd be fine with not even being that good....

*sigh* perhaps I should just drop the whole multiclassing idea and just go straight sorcerer.....
UZI
03-16-04, 06:14 AM An elven sorcerer is automatically proficient with the longsword by virtue of being an elf.
Nightwing_22
03-16-04, 12:14 PM A fighter2/Sorceror18 can be a very effective 'Ray'. With an increased BAB and the feats Weapon Focus (Ray) and Improved Critical (Ray) as your fighter feats you can be a serious threat with otherwise inaccurate rays.

Or take Combat Expertise and leave it on. You don't don't need the BAB, but you need the AC.

Just a couple thoughts.
Tony Vargas
03-16-04, 12:43 PM One thing you could do is go Sorcerer all the way, but pick up a sword proficiency (MWP feat), and apropriate combat-related feats (like expertise, for instance). You'll be a swordsman who compares favorably to a warrior of half your level, even if you use none of your magic (though, you'll presumably be using at least some magic for AC, rather than wearing armor).

EK is still an option of course. A single level of any of the following classes will give you the needed MWP:

Fighter,
Ranger,
Paladin,
Barbarian,

and, don't forget

Aristocrat (in an RP sense, the perfect set-up for an EK),

or even (though there's absolutely no reason for a PC)

Warrior (Warrior/Adept/EK anyone? Didn't think so. ;) ).
ninj4z
03-17-04, 12:37 PM if ya"s like variants, check out the battle sorcerer in UA...
dantedarkstar
03-18-04, 07:39 AM Evil fighter/sorcerer ?

If you can spare few feats for the purpose (to qualify as Blackguard), you could try

Sorcerer 12/Blackguard 2/Eldritch Knight 6

You'll get unholy high saves, since your Cha will be (and should be) pumped up extensively. You'll have little problems at epic though, since you won't have any class really high enough, so don't expect bonus feats at epics, which hurt.
The best progression is EK to 10 and then epic, IMHO. You get full spellcasting at level 23 and get epic feats soonest.
If you plan on going far into epics (40+), I would consider going sorcerer, since he got better bonus feat progression (EK has 1/4 according to epic SRD).
Or just ignore epic bonus feats and go on multi-PrC spree, taking archmage and anything else you can find.
Findail
03-19-04, 07:17 AM Don't forget that Arcane Spell Failure isn't a problem if you take the Still Spell feat.

...Yes, your spells will initially be one level higher: a stilled Fireball is 4th level etc. But if you're planning to play "far into Epic levels", you can eventually take Automatic Still Spell a few times (I'd recommend taking Increased Spell Capacity 3 times for spell slots up to 12th, and Automatic Still Spell 4 times) - and the problem goes away, forever.
Badapple
03-21-04, 05:33 AM I'd personally go with a fighter 19 / sorceror 1...

Spells known - enlarge person / truestrike.

Stock up on wands and scrolls and such.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arthur_Pendragon 03-14-04, 02:50 PM	I've heard said that some multiclass combinations aren't very good ideas for character playability and surviveablitiy. For example, I've heard the wizard 10/sorcerer 10 multiclass is a bad idea because you end up with lots of low level spells, but no high level spells, and a really sucky chance at beating high level enemies Spell Resistances. Because of stuff like this, I've always played single class PCs feeling if I multiclass I just end up sucking by the time I get to high levels, because I'm not as good as the single class character in either abilities. However, for once I'm toying with playing a fighter sorcerer, but I need some suggestions/encouragement, as to why (or why not) I should play a multiclass like that? Another thing is, we are planning to play far into epic levels, when I reach 10 Fighter/10 Sorcerer and gain my first epic level do I have to start taking epic levels in fighter (which gain feats slower than if I had been a single class fighter?) In other words, when I hit 21st level, do I just take a level of fighter and treat it like I just became an 11th level fighter (who also has 10 levels of wizard) or do I follow the epic level charts and gain feats at a slower rate :(
SmiloDan 03-14-04, 04:05 PM	Probably what you want to consider is the Eldritch Knight PrC, which gives you a Fighter BAB, good Fort saves, 1d6 HD, a bonus feat at 1st level and 9 caster levels there after. Maybe a Fighter 1 or 2/Sorcerer 8 or 9/Eldritch Knight 10? That would get you 17 or 18 levels of spellcasting, and 2 or 3 bonus fighter feats. In the past I used to multiclass exclusively, but I've changed my tune recently. I currently play an Elf Druid Archer/Scout 8, a Vow of Poverty Monk Diplomat/Mobile Tank 5, and Dwarf Ranger 3/fighter 1. And a dirty cop/ex-con/gov't agent Charismatic 4/Tough 1. In the past, I played a 3.0 human cleric 6/paladin 2 and a 3.0 halfling ranger 2/rogue 7, but those were early in my 3.0/3.5 career... Before I knew about PrCs and Min/Maxing. The halfling should have been a ranger 1/rogue 7/duelist 1 in the 3.0 rules. Oh, well.
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-14-04, 06:43 PM	Your biggest problem as a fighter/sorcerer is going to be the arcane spell failure of your armor (in addition to the slowed spell progression). You'll want to take care of that by perhaps taking the Spellsword PrC (grants -10% ASF at 1st level and alternating spell progression, i.e. 5 spellcasting levels) and/or the Bladesinger PrC (can cast in light/medium armor without ASF). Regarding Epic levels, you can't take levels in an Epic core class unless you already have 20 levels in that class. So your 21st character level (assuming Fighter 10/Sorcerer 10) would be the 11th level of whichever class you choose. You'd gain all abilities of that class level (BAB, saves, skills, bonus feats/spellcasting). If you took another fighter level at 22nd character level (i.e. 12th level fighter), you wouldn't be able to choose an Epic feat with your 12th-level bonus fighter feat, although you would be able to choose Epic feats with the feats you receive every three levels (i.e. at 21st, 24th, 27th, etc).
ninjarabbit 03-14-04, 07:35 PM	The problem with a 10 fighter/10 sorcerer build is that you're neither a good fighter or sorcerer. Your BAB is 15, only an average BAB, your hps on average will be slighter better than a bard or rogue, but slightly worse than a cleric, ranger, or druid. Being only a 10th level sorcerer is a joke when you're going to be fighting epic level monsters. Your best bet is to take levels of spellsword and/or Eldritch Knight. I'd go fighter1/sor8/ek10/ss1, you'd have a BAB of 16, a caster level of 18 allowing you to cast 9 level spell(s), and have a reduction of 10% to your ACF, enough for leather armor or mithral chain shirt, better will and fortitude saves, and only a little less hp on average.
Teh Lurv 03-14-04, 08:26 PM	I would suggest taking a look at the Hexblade Class in the Complete Warrior. They are basically the arcane version of the Ranger or Paladin class. Full BAB, ability to cast in armor, and limited spellcasting progression. In addition, it can take take certain PrCs, like the Dragon Disciple, that require arcane spellcasting.
Aerk 03-14-04, 08:57 PM	Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade Regarding Epic levels, you can't take levels in an Epic core class unless you already have 20 levels in that class. So your 21st character level (assuming Fighter 10/Sorcerer 10) would be the 11th level of whichever class you choose. You'd gain all abilities of that class level (BAB, saves, skills, bonus feats/spellcasting). If you took another fighter level at 22nd character level (i.e. 12th level fighter), you wouldn't be able to choose an Epic feat with your 12th-level bonus fighter feat, although you would be able to choose Epic feats with the feats you receive every three levels (i.e. at 21st, 24th, 27th, etc). A character's base save and base attack bonus do not continue to progress normally in Epic Levels. They are replaced by an Epic Attack Bonus and Epic Save bonus; see 'Epic Level Basics' in the most recent SRD for the exact numbers. Therefore, a wizard 10/fighter 10 who becomes a Wizard 10 / Fighter 11 gains a +1 Epic Attack Bonus, but their BaB is still +15; they will only get 3 attacks per round, unless they use a spell or item that grants BaB (like Divine Power, for instance). Also: Whenever an epic character is allowed to pick up a feat as part of character level advancement, he or she can choose either a nonepic feat or an epic feat. All class descriptions provide a list of bonus feats that characters must choose from. When a character has to choose from a list of bonus feats in the second class, he or she can also choose from the bonus epic feats described for each specific class. So, at wizard 10/fighter 12 the character could choose either a fighter bonus feat or an epic fighter bonus feat. If you want to do a Fighter/Sorcerer Multiclass with an eye for epic levels, make sure the end result has at least a +16 BaB. The lack of 4 attacks per round can really start to sting after a while. For more info on possible builds, check out the Comprehensive Gish thread in the Character Optimization forum.
Galahad the Pure 03-14-04, 10:40 PM	The question you should be asking yourself is, do you want to be a (1) fighter who can cast some spells or a (2) spellcaster who can do some fighting? If option 2 is what you're going for, Eldritch Knight is your friend, and don't lose any caster levels where you don't need to. Take a full 10 levels in EK so you can use its epic progression when you get there. (I'm not sure if there is an official one, but it probably gets a bonus feat every 3 levels.) If you're more entertained by option 1, it's OK to lose a few caster levels, because this build will shun spells like fireball in favor of displacement. Enlarge person, shield, stoneskin, all these will be your best assets. This type of build might me trickier to pull off, but personally, I would find it more satisfying to do this effectively. You might consider investing more levels in spellsword, and the real key will be finding a class or prestige class that complements a few levels of arcane spellcasting. Which class you go with really depends a lot on what style of melee you're geared for. This is a path that doesn't seem to get a lot of attention on these boards, which I think is a shame because I'd like to see it done, if possible. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Under option 1, you might have less epic options if you can't get into anything's epic progression. You can rectify the situation by finding an epic prestige class to get into. Too bad there are almost none out there for this type of build.
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-14-04, 11:09 PM	Thanks for that catch, Aerk. That should teach me to read up before I post. ;)
Aerk 03-15-04, 12:46 AM	You are quite welcome, the revised SRD does help clear a few things up, but a lot of stuff is buried in the various documents. You also helped me out, as it turns out Epic Level characters who multiclassed and didn't finish an arcane caster progression can still gain new spells known/spells per day. Thus, if the wiz10/fighter10 became a wiz11/fighter10, he would have the spells known/spells per day of a wiz11. I suppose this makes a lot more sense then what I previously thought, as otherwise, it would seriously limit a mutliclass character.
Arthur_Pendragon 03-15-04, 10:30 AM	What I was really planning/aiming for when I asked this question, was that I'm creating a character I largely want to be a sorcerer who wields a longsword (and who can wield it well (aka decent attack bonus) but he doesn't want to replace the party fighter (has no interest in all those feats or being up to par with the fighter) just able to fight decently if he gets forced into close combat (or shrugs at least look impressive ;)). Would it be too uber to replace the first level feat in the Eldritch Knight with an additional spells per level increase instead? (the reason why I ask is, again, I'm more interesting it keeping up in the sorcerer's skills rather than the fighters).
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-15-04, 11:22 AM	I've had problems with that first level of Eldritch Knight. I don't understand why the first level doesn't grant spellcasting, but the other 9 do. Do any other PrCs do that? I wouldn't have a problem with removing that bonus feat and giving 10 levels of spellcasting. You have d6 HD, 2+Int skill points, 7/3/3 saves, fighter BAB, and no special abilities other than spellcasting progression. Not a problem, IMO.
danielinthewolvesden 03-15-04, 12:37 PM	Take a couple levels of Paladin. Pally/sorc works well. Concentrate on Sorc. Or, like many have said- go for Eldrich Knight. Of course, in theory, a Bard is "a sorceror who wields a longsword". It is to laugh.:rolleyes:
danielinthewolvesden 03-15-04, 12:40 PM	Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade I've had problems with that first level of Eldritch Knight. I don't understand why the first level doesn't grant spellcasting, but the other 9 do. Do any other PrCs do that? It is there to stop the PrC from becoming too powerful.
bahamut_0 03-15-04, 12:49 PM	Definately go Eldritch Knight, they kick ass. I wouldn't have a problem substituting the bonus feat for an extra level of spellcasting, it seems a fair trade.
Arthur_Pendragon 03-15-04, 02:01 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden Take a couple levels of Paladin. Pally/sorc works well. Concentrate on Sorc. Or, like many have said- go for Eldrich Knight. Of course, in theory, a Bard is "a sorceror who wields a longsword". It is to laugh.:rolleyes: I can't really do the Sorcerer/Paladin thing . . . you see Galen (the character) is well. . . how to put this . . . morally impared. . . laughs at himself. . . he is Lawful Evil . . . and a devil (part devil, mostly devil) . . . and in my setting (I'm DM too, I play a DMPC cause my wife is my only other player . . . and she hates solo games) . . . however I remeber a Dragon Magazine has a LE variant of the Paladin (and that would be nice to take instead of just some mere level of fighter) . . . only trouble is in the setting it's the forces of Hell vs the gods so beings like Galen have no gods to gain power from. I guess I could explain the paladin like powers as coming from the same source as his sorcererous abilities, his magical devil blood. hmmm.... but what do you think of doing a (LE Paladin) 1/ Sor 9/Eldritch Knight 10? Or how to explain such a route? Also the name Eldritch Knight doesn't fit with the character concept I'm doing, can anybody think of a different name? (Sorcererous Lord for a alternate name?)
Tony Vargas 03-15-04, 02:46 PM	Well, if you want a fairly conventional sorcerer who can swing a sword well, EK is pretty good. You lag a spell-level behind, but, you get full BAB for 10 levels, and d6 hps. With a Fighter 1/Sorcerer9/EK10, at 20th level, you get the same 15 BAB as with the fighter10/Sorcerer10, but you're casting as an 18th level sorcerer (though you do miss out on 5 bonus feats, and ~15 hps). If you wanted to do an evenly-advancing Sorcerer/Fighter you could, and could even be effective. You'd just have to give up on trying to punch through SR or using offensive save-neg spells at some point. That's not actually that impractical - defensive, buffing, and misc spells could help make you a quite effective.
crazysamaritan 03-15-04, 02:54 PM	def. check out the gith thread. And remember, PCs never have to say what class they are. Recall the 3.0 rog2/sor8/virtuoso10 "bard"
danielinthewolvesden 03-15-04, 05:44 PM	Then do a hexblade. Perfect!
Teh Lurv 03-15-04, 08:17 PM	Well if you want to be a sorc with some combat capabilities in 3.5e, a good build is: Sorc6/Fighter1/Spellsword1/Eldrith Knight 10/Archmage2 You lose two caster lvls, but you get all four attacks, good hp, and a -10% off the arcane spell failure of any armor you wear. Put on a Mithral Chainshirt and you will be a pretty good light fighter.
DrWorm 03-15-04, 08:25 PM	Also look in to Battle Sorcerer in Unearthed Arcana.
UZI 03-15-04, 10:05 PM	If you go for a sorcerer/fighter, make sure you use downtime to craft wands and potions. They are not subject to arcane failure. This limits you to 4th level spells, but what the heck, at 10th level you're not going much beyond that anyway. There are also a number of materials in the Arms and Equipment Guide that have lower arcane failure%. You may never be the best sorcerer, but with enough self-buff spells, the occasional wand zap, and a Tenser's transformation, you can be a fairly formidable fighter. Overall, if you want to cast and fight, choose a cleric (or multi-class with a cleric/fighter), and make sure you keep a Divine Power handy.
Arthur_Pendragon 03-15-04, 11:18 PM	Originally posted by DrWorm Also look in to Battle Sorcerer in Unearthed Arcana. sigh...makes me want to go see it now...grumble grumble Now I'm torn...I really want to focus on the sorcerer aspect...I've already got an ECL +2 ... (from various abilities, one of which is a Dominate Person gaze attack...still deciding on wether or not to keep it...) So I want to keep up the Sorcerer levels up.... SO Eldritch Knight sounds like a good route...unless this Battle Sorcerer from UA is good????? I know some have said it would be ok to replace level of spell casting ability for feat, though I've heard at least one dissenting vote...so what does everyone think?
Guillaume777 03-16-04, 12:31 AM	Originally posted by Arthur_Pendragon I know some have said it would be ok to replace level of spell casting ability for feat, though I've heard at least one dissenting vote...so what does everyone think? If you put full spell casting progression then you are basically playing a Sorcerer with fighter BAB and d6 for hps......
tarkin 03-16-04, 12:56 AM	Some of you are talking as if you never played a fighter/Sorceror Build. I have seen people play them. They can be very very powerfull. The trick is NOT to go for fireball, but instead for Greater Magic Weapon. Do NOT go for scorching Ray, go for Bull Strength. Make similar choices for spells known, using the magic to help you become a better fighter, and it can work very well. Then the only problem is armor. So what. You took Mage Armor as a spell and use a Mithril Shield. The ASF chance is small. Yes Spell Sword/blade siner stuff is a good choice as well. It should be noted that the ranger/Sorceror, Barbarian/Sorceror or monk/Sorceror are easier to do than a fighter/Sorcerror, in part because you will not have as much temptation to get armor.
Arthur_Pendragon 03-16-04, 02:29 AM	sigh... I guess that's my problem, as I definately was not out to create a sorcerer whose spell compliment a fighter, merely good usage with a sword (I said good, as opposed to superb as the fighter gets with all his feats), heck, I'd be fine with not even being that good.... sigh perhaps I should just drop the whole multiclassing idea and just go straight sorcerer.....
UZI 03-16-04, 06:14 AM	An elven sorcerer is automatically proficient with the longsword by virtue of being an elf.
Nightwing_22 03-16-04, 12:14 PM	A fighter2/Sorceror18 can be a very effective 'Ray'. With an increased BAB and the feats Weapon Focus (Ray) and Improved Critical (Ray) as your fighter feats you can be a serious threat with otherwise inaccurate rays. Or take Combat Expertise and leave it on. You don't don't need the BAB, but you need the AC. Just a couple thoughts.
Tony Vargas 03-16-04, 12:43 PM	One thing you could do is go Sorcerer all the way, but pick up a sword proficiency (MWP feat), and apropriate combat-related feats (like expertise, for instance). You'll be a swordsman who compares favorably to a warrior of half your level, even if you use none of your magic (though, you'll presumably be using at least some magic for AC, rather than wearing armor). EK is still an option of course. A single level of any of the following classes will give you the needed MWP: Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, and, don't forget Aristocrat (in an RP sense, the perfect set-up for an EK), or even (though there's absolutely no reason for a PC) Warrior (Warrior/Adept/EK anyone? Didn't think so. ;) ).
ninj4z 03-17-04, 12:37 PM	if ya"s like variants, check out the battle sorcerer in UA...
dantedarkstar 03-18-04, 07:39 AM	Evil fighter/sorcerer ? If you can spare few feats for the purpose (to qualify as Blackguard), you could try Sorcerer 12/Blackguard 2/Eldritch Knight 6 You'll get unholy high saves, since your Cha will be (and should be) pumped up extensively. You'll have little problems at epic though, since you won't have any class really high enough, so don't expect bonus feats at epics, which hurt. The best progression is EK to 10 and then epic, IMHO. You get full spellcasting at level 23 and get epic feats soonest. If you plan on going far into epics (40+), I would consider going sorcerer, since he got better bonus feat progression (EK has 1/4 according to epic SRD). Or just ignore epic bonus feats and go on multi-PrC spree, taking archmage and anything else you can find.
Findail 03-19-04, 07:17 AM	Don't forget that Arcane Spell Failure isn't a problem if you take the Still Spell feat. ...Yes, your spells will initially be one level higher: a stilled Fireball is 4th level etc. But if you're planning to play "far into Epic levels", you can eventually take Automatic Still Spell a few times (I'd recommend taking Increased Spell Capacity 3 times for spell slots up to 12th, and Automatic Still Spell 4 times) - and the problem goes away, forever.
Badapple 03-21-04, 05:33 AM	I'd personally go with a fighter 19 / sorceror 1... Spells known - enlarge person / truestrike. Stock up on wands and scrolls and such.