| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| loaba05-02-06, 10:40 PM | I’m working on a ½-elf Fighter/Swasbuckler build. It’s based on a 32pb and I’m pretty well sold on 3 levels of Swashbuckler and 4 levels of Fighter up to 7th level, after that I’m not so sure at all. I figure there’s nothing wrong going with Fighter 8/Swashbuckler 12 in the end, but that seems a little less than exciting. I’ve looked at several different PrCs from the Complete series and even a few from some of the Races books but nothing seems to fit. I really dislike Duelist (the thought of no armor make me cringe) and while I love Kensai I’m not a fan of the Lawful requirement. I like Exotic Weapon Master and at first glance that seems to be a great choice, but my particular EWP is in Thinblade (so it doesn’t wark at all). I’m not saying I have to have an additional class or PrC, but I would like a way to logically spice up this character. Any suggestions? |
| allenchan05-02-06, 11:08 PM | First, I think you may have more luck asking on the CO boards. However, 1 level of EWM would still be good for exotic flurry, I believe the thinblade can use that just fine. After that, its really a matter of flavor. fighter/swashbuckler is pretty generic. Also, knowledge of the general theme and style of the campaign can go a long way into making an enjoyable, sturdy char. |
| serow_#R05-02-06, 11:18 PM | occult slayer 5 and pious templar 8 would go nicely |
| loaba05-03-06, 12:34 AM | First, I think you may have more luck asking on the CO boards. However, 1 level of EWM would still be good for exotic flurry, I believe the thinblade can use that just fine. After that, its really a matter of flavor. fighter/swashbuckler is pretty generic. Also, knowledge of the general theme and style of the campaign can go a long way into making an enjoyable, sturdy char. True, but the CO boards are kinda crazy-style - those guys, when they get going, can really put some strange stuff together. I don't think that's entirely what I'm after. Hmm, one level of EWM for one special ability is pretty enticing and it does translate to the theme of "the greatest swordsman who ever lived". After that, I could go with another 2 levels of Fighter (to pick up Imp Crit and Pwr Crit). Campaign is pretty open, nothing too crazy and it's prolly okay. Edit: well, after rereading EWM, seems like it's really based on double-weapons more than anything else. :( |
| serow_#R05-03-06, 01:32 AM | True, but the CO boards are kinda crazy-style - those guys, when they get going, can really put some strange stuff together. I don't think that's entirely what I'm after. Hmm, one level of EWM for one special ability is pretty enticing and it does translate to the theme of "the greatest swordsman who ever lived". After that, I could go with another 2 levels of Fighter (to pick up Imp Crit and Pwr Crit). Campaign is pretty open, nothing too crazy and it's prolly okay. Edit: well, after rereading EWM, seems like it's really based on double-weapons more than anything else. :( you could get EWM for the 2x str to damage ability also since u're going to get power crit, i suggest u enter pious templar. it gives u boost to ur will saves and mettle, which can really help u survive. |
| Yak of Darkness05-03-06, 02:21 AM | Edit: well, after rereading EWM, seems like it's really based on double-weapons more than anything else. :(It depends, really. There are options for all kinds of different exotic weapons (though it's rarely necessary to take all three levels of EWM). If you're using the elven thinblade (that's a one-handed, but finessable, weapon, right?), you could use Exotic Sunder, Show Off, Throw Exotic Weapon, Trip Attack, and Uncanny Blow. If you have any kind of decent Str score, Uncanny Blow can be nifty, and Show Off, Throw, and Trip Attack can fit the swashbuckler image well (especially since you have the fighter levels for extra feats . . . picking up Improved Trip could make you very deadly). |
| Entheogenic05-03-06, 02:54 AM | Have you taken a look at dervish? It works pretty well with the swashbuckler, both mechanically and stylistically. Entheogenic |
| BrutalMisery05-03-06, 03:15 AM | True, but the CO boards are kinda crazy-style - those guys, when they get going, can really put some strange stuff together. I don't think that's entirely what I'm after. Those guys are the best source for what you are after. You want an effective, useful addition to the party? The CO board will point you in the right direction. Yes, they come up with some crazy stuff, but most of the truely off the wall stuff is more a mental exerise than something practical. More along the lines of "What if...?" than a character they would want to play. Go ahead and post there. In the 1st post, put what you have, what you want, and what books you are using (very important. Lowers the avalible weird factor). Main topic: I shy away from finesse fighters that aren't battlefeild control. Damage is minimal, you don't tie hardly any bad guys up, AC is less than great, and your saves are nothing to write home about. In short, nowhere are quick as a rogue, way less damage than the barbarian, and just asking to get hit, by both that thing with the stick and all sorts of spells. But, if it works, TELL ME! I love the fast fighter image. |
| EyeontheMountain05-03-06, 03:36 AM | True, but the CO boards are kinda crazy-style - those guys, when they get going, can really put some strange stuff together. I don't think that's entirely what I'm after. ( AMEN. You are totally correct. They are pretty crazy over there, especially those who have 30 shelf-feet of books to draw from. As for my recommendation, I would say you are probably done with both Fighter and Swashbuckler, as 4/3 is enough for the good stuff. I agree Occult slayer is n awesome 5 level class. Easy to get into and gets nice abilities and saves. If your DM allows psionics, a quick Wild talent and then going into Warmind is pretty good. A bit of magic (mostly buffing) and you can greatly increase your effectiveness. Another favorite of mine is Divine Crusader with the Travel domain. Freedom of movement and good mobility spells are nice. You need a good charisma, though. Whatever you do, I would suggest getting your hands on some magic and soon. Fighters rapidly get boring at high levels, especially when everyone else is playing with their spell toys. |
| loaba05-03-06, 01:14 PM | Okay - first thing is checking into EWM and it's Trip ability. I did take Combat Expertise, so Imp Trip is an option. If that ties into EWM's ability, then I need to give it some thought. CO Boards - I concur that it's probably a good idea to see what those guys say, though I still say they're mostly crazy over there. :D Fast, Light Fighters - man, with a +1 mithral chain shirt and a +1 mithral heavy shield, crimony, that's the best, mose cost-effective, armor in the game. And it doesn't slow ya down. |
| starfire31105-03-06, 01:34 PM | Currently I am playing a Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 2/Bladesinger 10 we are just finsihing up the cauldron story arc or whatever in a game that started when it was 1st in dungeon... this character has been a lot of fun to play. I have a few utility spells that I use but my 2 big ones are wraith strike and extended wraithstrike. I also make liberal use of arcane strike. |
| kelvinaw27305-03-06, 02:15 PM | If you can bring yourself to be lawful for a while, take a level of monk and then go duelist. Monk level gives you your wsdom bonus to AC, and a feat or two. Duelist then allows you to add your Int bonus as well, this should compensate more than adequately enough for not wearing armour if you have planned your stats ahead of time (32 is a good build - don't shove it all into Dex, the 3 pts per increment over 16 are best placed pusing up Int and Wis). Take a feat like Whirling Steel strike and you can use your sword to Flurry, so you can skip the EWM level. |
| loaba05-03-06, 02:17 PM | Starfire - Yeah, with Swash you're pretty much focusing on intel and dex, so moving into Wizard certainly would play to my built-in strengths. However, Gishes are just plain difficult to build in this game, IMO anyway. As enticing as it is, and I'm glad it worked well for you, I just don't think I want to sacrifice the BAB and whatnot. Still, Arcane Strike is nice... As a 1/2-elf, I could certainly afford a few levels of Wizard, but then I would have to balance Fighter and Swashbuckler more evenly. Thinking about it makes my head hurt. lol Kel - that's an interesting thought, I never considered marrying Monk and Duelist. |
| starfire31105-03-06, 02:47 PM | Starfire - Yeah, with Swash you're pretty much focusing on intel and dex, so moving into Wizard certainly would play to my built-in strengths. However, Gishes are just plain difficult to build in this game, IMO anyway. As enticing as it is, and I'm glad it worked well for you, I just don't think I want to sacrifice the BAB and whatnot. Still, Arcane Strike is nice... As a 1/2-elf, I could certainly afford a few levels of Wizard, but then I would have to balance Fighter and Swashbuckler more evenly. Thinking about it makes my head hurt. lol Kel - that's an interesting thought, I never considered marrying Monk and Duelist. I agree about the Gishes, that is why mine is barely a gish... at level 17 I have a +16 BAB, and 7 caster levels... gives me some buff spells, But really all my spell slots are just arcane strikes and wraith strikes... did I mention wraithstrike is nuts. oh and extended wraithstrike. lol just think about if you just use all your spell slots for arcane strike if you have an 18 int and caster level 7 you get the following 5 times per day +1 attack rolls and +1D4 damage for 1 round 4 times per day +2 attack rolls and +2D4 damage for 1 round 3 times per day +3 attack rolls and +3D4 damage for 1 round 2 times per day +4 attack rolls and +4D4 damage for 1 round Anyway about the stacking things...like Monk and duelist... you can always go duelist, bladesinger... Canny Defense and Bladesong stack. oh and love Monk in a swash build... I also like Rogue, but you have to be willing to give up the BAB to get them |
| loaba05-03-06, 03:45 PM | I agree about the Gishes, that is why mine is barely a gish... Yeah, that's kinda my thinking, a min of arcane magic, barely Gish. at level 17 I have a +16 BAB, and 7 caster levels... 7 caster levels? What spell level is that, 4th maybe? I kinda think I'd want to call it good at say 3rd level spells (so I can snag Arcane Strike). Here are my stats thus far... (4th level Fgh 1/Swb 3) STR 12 DEX 17* CON 14 INT 16 WIS 8 CHA 10 I'm thinking I could bump WIS up to 10, but with Iron Will it's not really that big a deal (still having a negative stat is kinda gross). |
| starfire31105-03-06, 04:17 PM | Yeah, that's kinda my thinking, a min of arcane magic, barely Gish. 7 caster levels? What spell level is that, 4th maybe? I kinda think I'd want to call it good at say 3rd level spells (so I can snag Arcane Strike). Yeah 7 caster levels, but 5 of them are from bladesinger... it is a minimum of 6 caster levels, need 1 to get the PrC and then you get 5 from it... I went for 2nd level in wizard because it gave me BAB and a caster level Here are my stats thus far... (4th level Fgh 1/Swb 3) STR 12 DEX 17* CON 14 INT 16 WIS 8 CHA 10 I'm thinking I could bump WIS up to 10, but with Iron Will it's not really that big a deal (still having a negative stat is kinda gross). well if you do go the wiz/bladesinger route Will is a good save for both of them so you really dont need Iron Will or a high Wis. Bladesinger actually has good will and good Ref. |
| loaba05-03-06, 04:25 PM | I was thinking good 'ol Eldritch Knight from the DMG |
| Vaelan05-03-06, 09:19 PM | A Duelist does just fine without armor. You can still use Bracers of Armor and you gain your Intelligence modifier to AC. Alternately, I would recommend looking at the Weapon Master PrC from Sword & Fist. You can also find it under the name Kensai in Oriental Adventures. While it is very clearly 3.0, the mechanics have been used in an official 3.5 class (the Psychic Weapon Master found on the official home page) and thus it should not be problematic. |
| Hippokrene05-04-06, 02:55 AM | loaboa: " True, but the CO boards are kinda crazy-style - those guys, when they get going, can really put some strange stuff together. I don't think that's entirely what I'm after." First they'll tell you that you should only have 2 levels in fighter, then they'll tell you that swashbuckler is a horrible choice, and then they'll tell you to do a Chaotic Good Goliath Wolf Barbarian 2/Fighter 6/PsyWarrior 2/Holy Liberator 3/WarMind 3/Pious Templar 4 Because in their private world, a DM would allow that. Try an Invisible Blade or Master Thrower. |
| allenchan05-04-06, 03:08 AM | loaboa: " True, but the CO boards are kinda crazy-style - those guys, when they get going, can really put some strange stuff together. I don't think that's entirely what I'm after." First they'll tell you that you should only have 2 levels in fighter, then they'll tell you that swashbuckler is a horrible choice, and then they'll tell you to do a Chaotic Good Goliath Wolf Barbarian 2/Fighter 6/PsyWarrior 2/Holy Liberator 3/WarMind 3/Pious Templar 4 Because in their private world, a DM would allow that. Try an Invisible Blade or Master Thrower. Wow. Nice blanket statement there, which by the way is completely incorrect, but hey, whatever. Thats never stopped anyone. :rolleyes: |
| Hippokrene05-04-06, 03:54 AM | I find it interesting that, for you, it's okay to call the posters on the character optimization boards crazy but pointing out specific trends - their tendency to use fighters for a 2 level dip, to dislike sub-optimal core classes, and to use 5+ classes in their builds - somehow offends you. |
| serow_#R05-04-06, 03:58 AM | Wow. Nice blanket statement there, which by the way is completely incorrect, but hey, whatever. Thats never stopped anyone. :rolleyes: i agree! it should be WarMind5/Pious Templar 1/Something-Else 1, not WarMind3/Pious Templar 4 :P |
| allenchan05-04-06, 04:20 AM | I find it interesting that, for you, it's okay to call the posters on the character optimization boards crazy but pointing out specific trends - their tendency to use fighters for a 2 level dip, to dislike sub-optimal core classes, and to use 5+ classes in their builds - somehow offends you. Sorry? I never said anything of the sort. In fact, I encouraged the OP to post there. Fact of the matter I'm a CO regular and its the boards where things like this belong. Not every post is Pun-Pun, and if a poster supplies detailed information and asks for guidence as per the forum's faq you can get tons of ideas without it resorting to the realms of the absurd. Furthermore, Swashbuckler 3 is a solid dip for Int-based melee characters. And Fighter 4 is quite common on the CO boards. Anything more then those is a different story, true. ps: Chaotic Good Goliath Wolf Barbarian 2/Fighter 6/PsyWarrior 2/Holy Liberator 3/WarMind 3/Pious Templar 4 sounds like total crap. serow_#R: I highly doubt Pious Templar fits with his character, seeing as how they have to defend a specific temple. That doesnt sound like the bravado I suspect the character is intended. Back on topic: If you arent using TWF, I'd highly recommend it. As previously noted, dervish and tempest are pretty solid. If you attempt to use a single weapon a la duelists style, without significant hosue-rules and homebrew feats, you'll be in for a disappionting time. |
| serow_#R05-04-06, 04:32 AM | serow_#R: I highly doubt Pious Templar fits with his character, seeing as how they have to defend a specific temple. That doesnt sound like the bravado I suspect the character is intended.flavour is mutable. besides, PTs don't get anything related to defending anywhere from anyone :) at the same time, the OP never gave any info about what kind of character he's playing. i suggested PT coz i once played a swashbuckler/barbarian who's preparing to enter PT. obviously i just happen to like the PT class :D |
| Vaelan05-04-06, 09:41 AM | First they'll tell you that you should only have 2 levels in fighter Untrue. While two levels is a common cut-off, four levels is often used as well. ...then they'll tell you that swashbuckler is a horrible choice... Past level three, which this particular character isn't. then they'll tell you to do a Chaotic Good Goliath Wolf Barbarian 2/Fighter 6/PsyWarrior 2/Holy Liberator 3/WarMind 3/Pious Templar 4 Not only does this suffer from losing abilities due to alignment, but it also takes more than two levels of Fighter, which you said nobody on the CO board would ever suggest. I usually find it better to plainly state my distaste for something rather than making up inaccurate examples that serve no purpose beyond displaying my own inadequacies. |
| loaba05-04-06, 01:32 PM | Sorry? I never said anything of the sort. In fact, I encouraged the OP to post there. Fact of the matter I'm a CO regular and its the boards where things like this belong. No doubt the CO boards are a great place for this kind of inquiry, regardless I like to talk to other players as well. Certainly you're right in that the CO guys could give tons of excellent suggestions (but I still think they're mostly crazy :D ) Furthermore, Swashbuckler 3 is a solid dip for Int-based melee characters. And Fighter 4 is quite common on the CO boards. Yup, I specifically targeted Insightful Strike and Weapon Specialization as abilties I want this character to have. Add in decent access to Tumbling and 3 bonus feats and yeah, Fgh 4/Swb 3 is just plain a great combination. It's where I go after that is, that is the real question. serow_#R: I highly doubt Pious Templar fits with his character, seeing as how they have to defend a specific temple. That doesnt sound like the bravado I suspect the character is intended. Yeah, PT is cool but it's not appropriate for what I have in mind. Back on topic: If you arent using TWF, I'd highly recommend it. As previously noted, dervish and tempest are pretty solid. If you attempt to use a single weapon a la duelists style, without significant hosue-rules and homebrew feats, you'll be in for a disappionting time. I have used TWF in the past, but I just think that you reqally can't beat the +1 Heavy Mithral Shield in terms of cost effectiveness. A 3lb +3 shield bonus for little more than 2k is just to good to pass up, IMO anyway. I really am intrigued by the idea of combining Imp Trip with the Trip special ability from Exotic Weapon Master. That would be an easy choice for 8th level. Also, the arcane magic angle is something to consider, though I think it may require more of a resource outlay at higher levels than I want to deal with. |
| loaba05-04-06, 04:17 PM | Here are the vitals I posted on the CO boards. Race - 1/2-elf Stats - 32pb STR 12 12(+1) DEX 16+1 17(+3) CON 14 14(+2) INT 16 16(+3) WIS 8 8(-1) CHA 10 10 CL Class Feat/Special 1st SWB 1 Weapon Finesse** EWP: Thinblade* 2nd FHT 1 Wea Foc: Thinblade*** 3rd SWB 2 Grace(?)** Iron Will* 4th SWB 3 Insightful Strike** 5th FHT 2 Combat Expertise*** 6th FHT 3 Imp Disarm* 7th FHT 4 Wea Spec: Thinblade*** * - General Feat ** - Swashbuckler Ability *** - Fighter Bonus Feat |
| Shaggy_Shaggs05-05-06, 03:26 AM | Have you considered having a +1 light mithral shield instead of a +1 heavy mithral shield, taking the Improved Shield Bash feat, and using the shield as your off-hand weapon for TWF? You'd even get the insightful strike damage bonus -- a heavy shield is a one-handed weapon, but a light shield is, appropriately enough, a light weapon. |
| loaba05-05-06, 09:00 AM | Have you considered having a +1 light mithral shield instead of a +1 heavy mithral shield, taking the Improved Shield Bash feat, and using the shield as your off-hand weapon for TWF? You'd even get the insightful strike damage bonus -- a heavy shield is a one-handed weapon, but a light shield is, appropriately enough, a light weapon. Hmm, I hadn't considered that angle at all. That's a great point. :thumbsup: I've thought about using Shield Bash in that manner (as a light TWF weapon) with previous builds, but it never occured to me how effective it would be when used in conjunction with Insightful Strike. Course there is a downside, means I would have to put off Dervish till 10th level (and I could live with that). |
| Brehon05-05-06, 01:07 PM | Or take Two-Weapon Defense and Improved Buckler Defense, so that you can fight with your favorite off-hand weapon and still get a shield bonus to AC. Plus with a buckler, you don't have to have mithral in order to eliminate your skill penalty. And if you follow the Two-Weapon Defense chain and appropriately upgrade your buckler, your AC will be a lot better. If you have a feat to spare, consider picking up EWP (Broadblade Short Sword). It's finessable and if you use Combat Expertise (at least 2 points worth), it adds an additional 2 points to your AC beyond what Combat Expertise gives you. |
| loaba05-05-06, 01:19 PM | Well, I like taking advantage of the Light Shields inherent 1d4 bash. However, there is a problem (and isn't there always?). If my goal is to move into Dervish then I can't use the Thinblade as it is not a slashing weapon. :( |