Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tyrandor 12-14-07, 02:35 AM	My DM has asked us to make a 2nd set of character. He wants to run two different games where our characters will eventually meet. Since I'm a wizard in the first one, I'm thinking about a big brawny type in the 2nd one. So here comes a bit of a dilema - I've got tons of character concept, but I'm wondering from a 'optimised' point of view: Is there any point in taking any melee class aside from a fighter? Do the extra abilities (and in some case, limited caster ability) make up for the warrior's endless array of feats? Aside from a flavor point of view, are Barbarians, Rangers and Paladin even worth taking?
Pezz 12-14-07, 02:56 AM	If you have access to Tome of Battle, then that is the way you should go if you want a powerful melee fighter.
CryoSilver 12-14-07, 02:57 AM	Depends what you want to do. Fighters are bad at being lightly armored skirmishers: they don't have Tumble or Balance as a class skill, nor do they have good Reflex saves. Fighters can't make others better at fighting, like the warblade with White Raven, or Paladin, with Aura of Courage. The one thing a fighter CAN do well is specialize in one thing, like tripping, or grappling.
Grumman 12-14-07, 03:08 AM	So here comes a bit of a dilema - I've got tons of character concept, but I'm wondering from a 'optimised' point of view: Is there any point in taking any melee class aside from a fighter? Do the extra abilities (and in some case, limited caster ability) make up for the warrior's endless array of feats? Aside from a flavor point of view, are Barbarians, Rangers and Paladin even worth taking? Short answer: yes. The barbarian, for example, is faster and stronger than a fighter. Rangers get a whole lot of virtual feats. Even primary spellcasters can make good melee fighters. A druid or cleric who is built like a fighter (high strength, cleave feat tree, 2-handed weapon) is almost as good a fighter as a fighter is, and can heal the party between battles. In my current game, I'm playing a meta-mage (sorcerer 5/incantatrix 8/recaster 5/arch-mage 2) with a B.A.B. of 9 at level 20, who has nonetheless found a role as the party's second tank. Fully buffed, she has a strength of 68.
NightRigger 12-14-07, 03:13 AM	Contrary to what you may have heard(or read since you can't actually hear what I type unless you have one of those programs that can convert symbols into sound in which case you may or may not have "heard") I'm actually a huge fan of the fighter as a class, and although I do have ToB sometimes I like the way a fighter gets things done better, I'm not a really big fan of the ranger (to naturey for my taste), and I'm not terribly fond of The paladin (CoC and all that rot), I do however enjoy the Barbarian quite a bit (seeing as how I am one(not to mention the Frenzied Berserker is a really excellent class)). However a fighter is the most custom of all melee-ists and no matter what you're trying to do he can pretty much get it done.
Hippokrene 12-14-07, 03:23 AM	Is there any point in taking any melee class aside from a fighter? Do the extra abilities (and in some case, limited caster ability) make up for the warrior's endless array of feats? Aside from a flavor point of view, are Barbarians, Rangers and Paladin even worth taking? From a non-flavor POV, the only thing fighters are good for is a two level dip.
metalmayhem80110 12-14-07, 03:31 AM	From a non-flavor POV, the only thing fighters are good for is a two level dip. Fighters are an amazing 2 level dip, right up there with the psychic warrior :P In all seriousness, I prefer a barbarian/frenzied berserker to a fighter. The damage output can just be scary when you're raging/frenzying/power attacking.
Grumman 12-14-07, 03:41 AM	In all seriousness, I prefer a barbarian/frenzied berserker to a fighter. The damage output can just be scary when you're raging/frenzying/power attacking. That's true. Everyone else's damage output is limited by the number of enemies standing nearby. The Frenzied Berzerker can keep on going!
AngryJake 12-14-07, 04:03 AM	The Fighter Thread, It returns!!, and so have I, everything has come full circle.
Shadowshimmer 12-14-07, 03:56 PM	Cannot go wrong with the Monk. The feats they get at higher levels are incredible and they can be the deadliest class if used with a little style.
Orenmir 12-14-07, 04:44 PM	If you'd like a self-buffing fighter, go for Psychic Warrior -- the most underrated melee class (IMO).
dawnbringer 12-14-07, 05:16 PM	From a non-flavor POV, the only thing fighters are good for is a two level dip. Sigh, and here comes the stupid statement person, hippokrene. What he's said here is completely and utterly false. The fighter is an excellent choice. It does depend on what you want to do to a certain degree, but the fighter can normally do what you want very effectively. Moreso than other melee types. Want to be a charger? Sure Want to be a weapon specialist (Weapon Supremecy is great)? Sure Want to be an archer? Sure Want to be a two weapon fighter? Sure Want to be a sword and shield guy? Sure. All that, and more. And the fighter does each of those things very well. However, and I will admit this, the Knight class from PHB II is better suited for sword and shield style, but the fighter is still a decent choice for it.
Alpha_Moose 12-14-07, 05:34 PM	Want to be a two weapon fighter? Sure I'd agree with everything else (except to the degree at which the Fighter excels at them), but really? TWF sucks unless you have an extra source of damage, like from sneak attack. The main way a Fighter deals damage is with Power Attack, which doesn't work at all with TWF. However, a Warblade can be pretty good at it, especially with Stormguard Warrior. I've seen some that can rack up insane damage with TWF and Time Stands Still (build up your attacks in the round before with Avalanche of Blades and Combat Rhythm). In many of the fields that you mention a Warblade can do better or as well as the Fighter (except archery and charging). But Fighters are one of the best dips out there for martial characters. It's not so good for all 20 levels though (unless you use Lockdown or some similar build). And to the OP; Ranger can be pretty good but it's not a front line fighter, Paladin is amazing... for the one round that he uses all of his Smite Evils for, and the Barbarian is probably as good as the Fighter at damage but is easier to build.
tyrandor 12-14-07, 05:46 PM	So considering that I'm a novice player and that we're only using the 3 corebook... Barbarian would be the way to go if I want to achieve ultimate ass-kickery?
Surgo 12-14-07, 05:53 PM	So considering that I'm a novice player and that we're only using the 3 corebook... Barbarian would be the way to go if I want to achieve ultimate ass-kickery? No, that would be rogue. Seriously, you'll outfight the fighter in just about every way. And you'll "technically" not have spellcasting, so you can still be considered a melee class.
dawnbringer 12-14-07, 06:22 PM	I'd agree with everything else (except to the degree at which the Fighter excels at them), but really? TWF sucks unless you have an extra source of damage, like from sneak attack. The main way a Fighter deals damage is with Power Attack, which doesn't work at all with TWF. However, a Warblade can be pretty good at it, especially with Stormguard Warrior. I've seen some that can rack up insane damage with TWF and Time Stands Still (build up your attacks in the round before with Avalanche of Blades and Combat Rhythm). In many of the fields that you mention a Warblade can do better or as well as the Fighter (except archery and charging). But Fighters are one of the best dips out there for martial characters. It's not so good for all 20 levels though (unless you use Lockdown or some similar build). And to the OP; Ranger can be pretty good but it's not a front line fighter, Paladin is amazing... for the one round that he uses all of his Smite Evils for, and the Barbarian is probably as good as the Fighter at damage but is easier to build. Well, if your a charger build and have pounce, shock trooper + leap attack, TWF is good. (Fighters can do more than one thing! xD). Also, Spiked Shield + Spiked Armour + Blood Spiked Charger feat from PHBII makes for an excellent TWF (Currently one level away from achieving it in my campaign). There might be other good ways with different tactical feats and/or 2 of the same weapons going down the melee weapon mastery and weapon supremacy route. And fighter 18-20 is the only way to get weapon supremacy.
Alpha_Moose 12-14-07, 06:32 PM	And fighter 18-20 is the only way to get weapon supremacy. Warblade 19/Fighter 1. :P And how does a Fighter get pounce, short of multiclassing into Barbarian?
dawnbringer 12-14-07, 06:42 PM	Well, theres the aforementioned 1 level dip into barb. Theres also being a catfolk, and lastly, convincing your DM to let you make an item (albiet it might be expensive) that permanently gives you the lions charge spell active. Any other ways i can't think of.
CryoSilver 12-14-07, 06:45 PM	And fighter 18-20 is the only way to get weapon supremacy. Weapon Supremacy is ok, but I would not personally be willing to wade through 18 levels of crap to get to two levels of decency.
dawnbringer 12-14-07, 06:55 PM	Weapon Supremacy is ok, but I would not personally be willing to wade through 18 levels of crap to get to two levels of decency. And who says that fighter up to 18 isn't decent, or is crap for that matter? When you learn that straight fighters are good, you won't say things like that.
Alpha_Moose 12-14-07, 07:08 PM	And who says that fighter up to 18 isn't decent, or is crap for that matter? When you learn that straight fighters are good, you won't say things like that. I think it's more about different meanings of 'good'. Straight Fighters usually aren't unless you use certain builds, and that constricts your play types.
CryoSilver 12-14-07, 07:20 PM	And who says that fighter up to 18 isn't decent, or is crap for that matter? When you learn that straight fighters are good, you won't say things like that. Straight fighters are good for some things, but there's many things at which they fail utterly, like TWF and skirmishing. They don't get Tumble either, which is a killer for me, since I prefer lightly armored, mobile characters.
Bopple 12-14-07, 09:27 PM	Aside from ToB classes, fighter is better than any other melee or archery class. Some might argue barbarian is better at melee damage. Superficially, yeah, barbarian can do more, if fighter chose wrong feats. In reality, fighter can acquire best melee feats more and earlier, like Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Overpowering Attack and ect. These combined feats result in an incredible outcome that no other conventional melee class can ever dream of. Anyway, the most glaring weakness of fighter is its skill list and points. You can do tremendous amount of damage per round, with the above combo. But do you need that much? Seriously, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper combo is more than enough for damage dealing. Other than excessive damage dealing, you are just a packing mule. That's the problem. As for archer you are the best. Some might argue Scout/Ranger with Greater Manyshot can deal as much damage as a fighter can. That is not true. You have to be within 30' range and you suffer penalty ranging from -4 to -8. Thus, fighter can deal more constant damage, while the maximum is lower. But sadly, what would you do with an archer that cannot Spot/Listen? PS) You can get Tumble as your class skill with Cityscape Web Enhancement. But for TWF mobile fighter, I agree there are better options like Swashbuckler/Rogue with Daring Outlaw.
AngryJake 12-15-07, 03:46 PM	Barbarian=best 1 level dip(for fighters), seriously pounce, and rage are worth more than the one freakin feat you get at level 20, take extra/extended rage(its not like you don't have enough feats.) and your golden.
Sunic_Flames 12-15-07, 04:07 PM	Best core only melee? Druid. Or Cleric. Can't believe noone said that... Non core, you could take a half orc bard and one up a fighter. :rolleyes: Not kidding either. Options available include: UMDing Divine Power, Wraithstrike, and others. Only need +19 to auto succeed. Inspire Courage. Becomes as high as +10 if done right. Unfortunately you have to be good aligned but meh. Arcane Strike. I would say Snowflake Wardance, but it only works on 1 handed weapons, which means no good Power Attacking, and likely TWF without bonus dice which sucks. Otherwise Cha to hit would be great synergy. The half orc part is just to rub it in.
Pezz 12-15-07, 05:32 PM	So considering that I'm a novice player and that we're only using the 3 corebook... Barbarian would be the way to go if I want to achieve ultimate ass-kickery? OP has said that it is the 3 core books only. So almost all of this advice is null. What setting are you in Tyrandor? generally speaking, for straight up melee, core only kickassery, go with a self-buffing druid. Access to buff spells, utility spells, and wildshape for combat forms. without splat books, none of the melee specific classes are really all that good. One Eberron build that i threw together (totally cracked up, but its a funny concept) is a Warforged Monk/Juggernaught. yeah, the heavy armor required for juggernaught screws over some of the monk's abilities, but i used monk for the unarmed damage. With a battlefist, improved charge, powerful charge, and a monk's belt, the damage gets up there quite nicely, and all of the monk's unarmed boosts stack. at level 10, with a quick run through (18 str), he does 4d6+1d8+14 on a charge. hardly optimized but a funny concept all the same.
dawnbringer 12-15-07, 06:10 PM	Non core, you could take a half orc bard and one up a fighter. :rolleyes: Not kidding either. I lol'd at your stupidity.
Alpha_Moose 12-15-07, 06:49 PM	I lol'd at your stupidity. He did it wrong. He should beat the Fighter with Fascinate and then Suggestion. Or crazy Diplomacy, but no one wants to go there.
Prator_The_Golden 12-15-07, 07:55 PM	There's one HUGE advantage to the Fighter that no one has brought up yet: IT'S SIMPLE! The fighter is one of the EASIEST classes to play, not because of its power, but because it's a very simple task to design a decent one and play it for twenty levels or more. I know this, because I have done so several times. I like fighters, because once your feats and minimal skill points are sorted out, you can focus on what's really FUN about D&D: roleplaying and battle tactics. But that's just me. I find that designing a "build" is a chore, and updating character sheets is a pain, so my view might not apply to everyone. In the hands of an over-optimizer, the fighter is made of dynamite. It's not made of cheese, like the barbarian/frenzied berserker, or of C4, like the ToB classes, but it can still be damned effective. In the hands of a real novice, the fighter is possibly the best core-only class to play. As I said, it's easy to make one, and you don't have to keep track of a complicated chain of spells, special abilities, and feats unless you really want to. If your fighter stays well-armed for his whole career, he'll kick arse for his old career.
Optimator 12-15-07, 08:50 PM	Cannot go wrong with the Monk. The feats they get at higher levels are incredible and they can be the deadliest class if used with a little style. One can go very wrong with the monk.
IceFractal 12-15-07, 09:37 PM	I'd disagree that a Fighter is the easiest class to play as. Superficially, it looks simple, but it's one of the harder pure melee classes to play effectively. First off, picking feats. As a Barbarian, it's pretty simple - take Power Attack, use a two-handed weapon, and you'll be doing decent damage right off the bat. If you have access, get PA-boosting feats like Shock Trooper. As a Ranger or Rogue, get the TWF chain, and that's your offense. All those classes have built-in progression, so feats are only needed to enhance or round-out that progression. As a Fighter though, your only progression is from feats. Pick non-synergistic feats, and your combat skills will be pathetic for your level. So you have to trying to build up a large chain of feats that all enhance each-other. Not easy in core, and requires some research outside of core. Secondly, playing the character. While a Barbarian can do decently with standard attacking, Fighters generally need tactics like tripping, AoO mastery, and/or tactical feats to keep up. The rules for these are often not well known, and you need to memorize them if you don't want to slow things to a crawl. The reason for this is that in Core, the AoO/reach/tripping feat chain is the only one extensive enough to give a Fighter any advantage in taking it. Outside of core, there are more options, although even then many of them build on the same base. So, in summary: Strongest Core Melee Class: Druid Easiest Core Melee Class: Barbarian Actually, the Ranger can work pretty well too, if you have any idea what kind of foes you'll be facing. There's nothing wrong with the Fighter. As mentioned, it makes a great dip, and with the right feats, it can do some impressive AoO/area-control stuff. But in a core-only game, the Fighter is more hindered than most.
Prator_The_Golden 12-15-07, 10:21 PM	I'd disagree that a Fighter is the easiest class to play as. Superficially, it looks simple, but it's one of the harder pure melee classes to play effectively. That's only true if: A: The battles you face are substantially harder than anything published in an official Dungeons and Dragons adventure. B: You're badly equipped. C: You have no sense of tactical feat progression at all, and took things like Toughness and Skill Focus: Basketry in lieu of things that help you hurt people more or deal with day-to-day problems more effectively. Yeah, you have to read over the list of feats carefully, but after you've done it once or twice, it becomes all too easy. I remember back in the days before there was any such thing as Shock Trooper, Fighters still worked fine. They might not be the absolute best thing to play, but do you really need the absolute best thing to play ALL the time?
CryoSilver 12-16-07, 12:56 AM	I remember back in the days before there was any such thing as Shock Trooper, Fighters still worked fine. They might not be the absolute best thing to play, but do you really need the absolute best thing to play ALL the time? I do, but that's beside the point. Yes, fighters can be OK with suboptimal feats, BUT, they'll still lag behind the other melee classes. Fighter is a pro class. It can be a lot of fun for a new player, but he won't use it to the utmost of it's power. Heck, fighter can even be OK in a core-only game, but given the option, I'd play another class first, unless fighter was the only good class flavor-wise. In core, cleric and rogue are my favorite classes. I don't totally cheese out my clerics (I use the rule of thumb that I don't do anything with my character's build that I'd frown on someone in MY game doing), but they own. Same with my rogues, who often out-damage the fighter. Of the melee classes, warblade is my new favorite, because I like getting cool powers, basically, but i I HAD to, I could tweak out a fighter to beat a warblade.
tyrandor 12-16-07, 12:52 PM	Thanks for the reply. We're playing into an homemade world - using the gods of the PHB for simplicity's sake. Since our character are 'country boys' in a way, they don't know all that much about the world out there (think the boys from Two River in Robert Jordan' Wheel of Time), so it allows the DM to pretty much do anything with his world as long as he stays consistant. I am thinking about buying more books, but I'm a tad annoyed at the way some of the books seem to be spread out - Aside from the Spell Compendium and PHB 2, what else should we buy to get the most out of money? :( Book like Complete X or Race of the X are probably choke full of information, but I'm a bit hesitant to buy books that are so specialised in their outlook (i.e The Cleric won't give a damn about Complete Arcane, etc) More specific questions/observations: - What's this 'level dip' you guys mention? - Druid being the stronger fighter seems weird. I'm assuming they do so by 'self buffing' with magic to the point where a more common melee'er can't keep up? - I've heard Shock Troop and Leap Attack mentioned several time, and they sound like very potent ability... which book are they in? - It seems obvious even to my noobish eyes, that Rogues are much better damage dealer thanks to Sneak Attack scaling up so well... that being said, I really want this guy to be the 'big dumb fighter' type, so a sneaky rogue-isg type doesn't work. I got my Wizard if I want to play 'smart' ;P. - Possibly due to my inexperience, I assumed you'd want a barbarian to be a Dual-Wielder... Berserker Rage would make up for the hit penalties (especially once you start get getting feats) and the damage potential of adding your +str bonus several time seems like would be a better option (i.e. 1D8+5 + 1D6 + 5 > 1D10 + 5)... so why 2 handers?
CryoSilver 12-16-07, 01:03 PM	"Dipping" means just taking a couple levels of a class. Fighter is a two level "dip" because it gets a bonus feat at levels 1 and 2, followed by a dead level. Druids can Wild Shape into a huge monster and still cast spells. Shock Trooper and Leap Attack are in Complete Warrior
Sunic_Flames 12-16-07, 01:31 PM	I lol'd at my stupidity. Fixed. See, thing is. Bard has spells. So you can UMD up Divine Power, Wraithstrike, etc. Get a nice +10/+10 inspire courage. Arcane strike. Better melee than a fighter. I never said it was good. Just better than utter crap. When you actually learn some system mastery skills, you can question my optimization fu. Until then... boot to da head. *thwack* Yes, I realize I already said it. Repeated for emphasis because I find it incredibly amusing a freakin' bard can beat the fighter at his own game and still have more up their sleeve. Back to the topic. TWF = no. TWF is only worthwhile if you have some bonus d6s to damage. Such as Sneak Attack, which a barbarian does not. Otherwise, your primary source of damage is Power Attack, and anything that builds off it. As you cannot effectively PA as a dual wielder, the result is a buncha weak hits that get negated by anything with DR. Dual wielder = 1d8+5 + 1d6+2 if both hit. And several feats. Two handed weapon = 2d6+7, not having to focus on two different less accurate weapons which means more money invested for less effect, only one feat required as a base instead of three, and so forth. What makes Druids awesome is they get the str and dex of whatever they shift into. So you can put 8s there, become a bear, and still kick ass in melee. Remember, 3/4th BAB only puts them behind by 5 points at most. Not that it matters because animal form attacks aren't dependent on BAB, they can just hit once with every weapon they have. But it does result in a to hit the same or higher with that alone. It gets far worse with buffs.
tyrandor 12-16-07, 01:45 PM	What level does a druid need to be to get there thought? I would assume your first few level as 8str/dex druid will be nightmare-ish :P. I'm also confused about what's so great with power attack... seems that by lowering your hit to increase your damage, you're basically using a feat to get the same benefit of DW'ing. I hope I'm not being to annoying. You guys are being a great help :)
CryoSilver 12-16-07, 02:16 PM	Power Attack with a 2 handed weapon gives you a 2 to 1 ratio, and a full BAB class can usually sac several points before he has to worry about missing. Leap Attack makes that a 3 to 1 ratio. Shock Trooper lets you dump your to hit penalty onto your AC. That is why Power Attack is so great. Pouncing Charge + Leap Attack +Shock Trooper = +60 damage to a full attack on a charge at level 20.
Grumman 12-16-07, 02:18 PM	What level does a druid need to be to get there thought? I would assume your first few level as 8str/dex druid will be nightmare-ish :P. I far prefer the 18 Str / 10 Dex druid, who picks up Power Attack and Exotic Weapon Proficiency, then casts Bull's Strength and gibs anything. It works even better if you can get an arcanist to cast Enlarge Person on you - it doubles your efficiency: My turn: I charge and insta-kill someone. Their turn: They charge, and I insta-kill someone. I'm also confused about what's so great with power attack... seems that by lowering your hit to increase your damage, you're basically using a feat to get the same benefit of DW'ing. With enough Strength, you don't need B.A.B. And getting double your B.A.B. as extra damage with every attack is nothing to be sneezed at.
tyrandor 12-16-07, 02:37 PM	I far prefer the 18 Str / 10 Dex druid, who picks up Power Attack and Exotic Weapon Proficiency, then casts Bull's Strength and gibs anything. It works even better if you can get an arcanist to cast Enlarge Person on you - it doubles your efficiency: My turn: I charge and insta-kill someone. Their turn: They charge, and I insta-kill someone. How do Exotic Weapon allow to kill people during their turn :confused:
dawnbringer 12-16-07, 02:38 PM	Fixed. See, thing is. Bard has spells. So you can UMD up Divine Power, Wraithstrike, etc. Get a nice +10/+10 inspire courage. Arcane strike. Better melee than a fighter. I never said it was good. Just better than utter crap. When you actually learn some system mastery skills, you can question my optimization fu. Until then... boot to da head. *thwack* And that just proves your silly. You have either, A, Never played a fighter B, Can't play a fighter effectively C, have access to nothing other than core books, or D, Your a noob. In any case, the fighter is better than the bard. In core, the fighters not so good, but isn't the utter crap you speak of. Outside core, fighter is one of the best classes in the game, provided you use him right and pick the right feats. As i'm sure you've noticed, the majority of people in this thread have posted that the fighter is very good, but is not for newbies. So, i believe my origional statement about you stands true.
dawnbringer 12-16-07, 02:43 PM	There's one HUGE advantage to the Fighter that no one has brought up yet: IT'S SIMPLE! The fighter is one of the EASIEST classes to play, not because of its power, but because it's a very simple task to design a decent one and play it for twenty levels or more. I know this, because I have done so several times. I like fighters, because once your feats and minimal skill points are sorted out, you can focus on what's really FUN about D&D: roleplaying and battle tactics. But that's just me. I find that designing a "build" is a chore, and updating character sheets is a pain, so my view might not apply to everyone. In the hands of an over-optimizer, the fighter is made of dynamite. It's not made of cheese, like the barbarian/frenzied berserker, or of C4, like the ToB classes, but it can still be damned effective. In the hands of a real novice, the fighter is possibly the best core-only class to play. As I said, it's easy to make one, and you don't have to keep track of a complicated chain of spells, special abilities, and feats unless you really want to. If your fighter stays well-armed for his whole career, he'll kick arse for his old career. Totally agree with you, except on one thing. Very new players who use core only will probly pick stupid things like Toughness and Skill Focus, as you mentioned. Its doing things like that, or picking feats that just generally don't go well with your other feats, or picking feats just for "roleplaying" purposes that makes your build crap. I'm guessing thats the kind of thing that Sunic_Flames does.
Grumman 12-16-07, 02:47 PM	How do Exotic Weapon allow to kill people during their turn :confused: In the land of 5-foot reach, the 10-foot reach is king.
Totentanz 12-16-07, 03:07 PM	While my Dnd-Fu isn't the best, I'm not half bad either. More importantly, the CO Boards is the Monastery of DnD-Fu Masters. @ OP: They would tell you that the Fighter is only good for battlefield control/tripping. They would also say that Leap Attack/Shock Trooper etc works better on a Barbarian than a Fighter, because the Barb has more bonus to hit after dropping their whole BaB into PA. Finally, Druids can easily survive until they hit Wildshape by relying on their trusty Wolf companion, who is conveniently more powerful than a Fighter. Yes, that's right. Fido pwns the Fighter. As a junior optimizer myself, I agree. I've had people in my groups ask to reroll because their Fighter is getting one-upped by the Animal Companion. Most importantly, class has little, if anything to do with RP. You want to be the big, dumb guy? Druids can play dumb. "Grok be bear kill all orcs RAAAR!" However, all that being said, if you really like the idea of choosing feats all the time and think the class is cool, go ahead. You having fun is more important than the classes' power, or the never-ending argument about the Fighter's value as a class. Just watch out for Fido.
Alpha_Moose 12-16-07, 03:09 PM	What level does a druid need to be to get there thought? I would assume your first few level as 8str/dex druid will be nightmare-ish :P. You'd have an animal companion, who is quite honestly like having another fighter around. Look at the riding dog (trained for war) and compare it to a 1st level Fighter. They are very comparable. In those first few levels you'd use non-melee abilities. Be a backup healer, buffer, battlefield controller, etc. And CryoSilver, Leap Attack is in Complete Adventurer. In any case, the fighter is better than the bard. Well that's not true. The Fighter might be better in melee than the Bard (Lockdown is actually pretty sweet), but the Bard is just behind full casters in power. The best Fighter build I've seen can never reach that level. Grumman: Wildshaping into some Large animal removes the need for Exotic Weapons.
Prator_The_Golden 12-16-07, 03:16 PM	If I think about what would happen if a Bard and a Fighter went toe-to-toe... Assuming the Bard did NOT have several rounds to buff himself (something which will ALWAYS give ANY casting type an advantage), the Fighter would charge, and make and AoO to disrupt any casting or special actions pretty much every round. By the time the Bard could get any magical enhancements on himself at all, he'd be pretty badly hurt, and the fighter wouldn't have a scratch on him. This also applies to Fighter and Wizard, and also to Fighter and CoD, to a lesser degree. That is why all fighters should have Improved Initiative. No exceptions. That said, when I'm playing a fighter, and find an enemy who HAS had time to buff himself, you know what I do? Run. And then come back a few minutes later when their spells have worn off and THEN beat the @#$% out of them. That also makes the Run feat a useful commodity, especially if you've got a chain shirt or some other relatively light armor.
Enigmis 12-16-07, 03:37 PM	I far prefer the 18 Str / 10 Dex druid, who picks up Power Attack and Exotic Weapon Proficiency, then casts Bull's Strength and gibs anything. It works even better if you can get an arcanist to cast Enlarge Person on you - it doubles your efficiency: My turn: I charge and insta-kill someone. Their turn: They charge, and I insta-kill someone. With enough Strength, you don't need B.A.B. And getting double your B.A.B. as extra damage with every attack is nothing to be sneezed at. I'm sorry, but thats a horrible Horrible thing to do. I hope no new druid player saw this post. Druids are extremely powerful, unless you ruin it by trying to play a sub-par fighter.
Grumman 12-16-07, 03:44 PM	Sure, the character was a sub-par fighter. But he was a sub-par fighter who was still strong enough to wipe out entire bandit gangs, and who could provide food, water and magical healing in times of need.
Alpha_Moose 12-16-07, 03:45 PM	If I think about what would happen if a Bard and a Fighter went toe-to-toe... Assuming the Bard did NOT have several rounds to buff himself (something which will ALWAYS give ANY casting type an advantage), the Fighter would charge, and make and AoO to disrupt any casting or special actions pretty much every round. By the time the Bard could get any magical enhancements on himself at all, he'd be pretty badly hurt, and the fighter wouldn't have a scratch on him. This also applies to Fighter and Wizard, and also to Fighter and CoD, to a lesser degree. That is why all fighters should have Improved Initiative. No exceptions. That said, when I'm playing a fighter, and find an enemy who HAS had time to buff himself, you know what I do? Run. And then come back a few minutes later when their spells have worn off and THEN beat the @#$% out of them. That also makes the Run feat a useful commodity, especially if you've got a chain shirt or some other relatively light armor. First off, many buffs will last for hours (such as Magic Weapons) and at higher levels this translates to all day. Second, many spellcasters can have contingencies (whether through the spell or the item creation feat). Third, Celerity is broken and spellcasters will have Improved Initiative just as often as a Fighter. Even then a Bard shouldn't try and wade into melee (though they certainly could if made for it). They should use enchantments and Diplomacy to make your character their best friend who will do anything for them including helping them move and then paying for the pizza even though you've only known each other for a few days. That's why a Bard is powerful.
CrimsonDeath 12-16-07, 05:20 PM	Fighters are an amazing 2 level dip, right up there with the psychic warrior :P PsyWar is good for 20 levels, or so I've heard. Psionic feats and PsyWar powers add a lot of versatility and synergy. Fighter can be optimal for as much as six levels, but two is the most that the average build will need. It takes a lot of experience, detailed knowledge of the system, and a pretty good selection of splat-books to build a really good Fighter 20. Well, if your a charger build and have pounce, shock trooper + leap attack, TWF is good. You're still using Power Attack, and you'll need Oversize Two-Weapon Fighting if you want to PA with your off-hand and not take huge penalties on your attack rolls. A two-handed weapon will do comparable at a higher attack bonus damage (2d6+1.5xStr+2xPA for a greatsword vs. 2d8+1d5xStr+2xPA for two longswords-- you're taking -2 to attack and making twice as many rolls for an extra 2 damage per iterative attack) with four fewer feats (2WF, I2WF, G2WF, O2WF). Inspire Courage. Becomes as high as +10 if done right. Unfortunately you have to be good aligned but meh. Words of Creation takes 15 Int and Cha. Hard to pull off with your Half-Orc. There's one HUGE advantage to the Fighter that no one has brought up yet: IT'S SIMPLE! No, it isn't. Not if you want a good one. You have a lot of feats to take. It takes experience to sort out the good ones from the crap, and if you make a bad choice, you're stuck with it. And being stuck with a bad feat is downright tragic for a fighter, because feats are the only class features he ever gets. Contrast with the other core nonspellcasters. They get class features. If you pick a bad feat, it's not quite as awful, because you have preset class features to fall back on. A Rogue with Power Attack can still sneak attack. A Barbarian with Combat Expertise can still rage. A Paladin with Negotiator can still Smite. And consider the Divine spellcasters. If they pick a bad spell, they can just pick a different spell the next day. Fighters, Sorcerers, and Wizards are probably the hardest classes to build, because their effectiveness at the table depends entirely on choices you make before the dice ever even roll, and for Fighters and Sorcerers, there are no (or precious few) opportunities to fix a bad decision. Shock Trooper and Leap Attack are in Complete Warrior Shock Trooper is in Complete Warrior, but Leap Attack is in Complete Adventurer (for some reason). What level does a druid need to be to get there thought? I would assume your first few level as 8str/dex druid will be nightmare-ish :P. You get Wild Shape at level 5, and then at level 6 you can take the Natural Spell feat, which lets you cast spells during Wild Shape. (It's such a powerful ability that some people joke that the Druid doesn't get a feat at level 6, only a class feature called Natural Spell.) For the first four levels, you let your Animal Companion do your fighting for you. You can start off with a wolf or riding dog, which is probably a match for a level 1 melee character. As you gain levels, your animal companion can get stronger, or you can trade it up for a stronger animal. I far prefer the 18 Str / 10 Dex druid, who picks up Power Attack and Exotic Weapon Proficiency, then casts Bull's Strength and gibs anything. It works even better if you can get an arcanist to cast Enlarge Person on you - it doubles your efficiency: That may be the worst advice I've ever seen on how to play a Druid. If it works for you, great. Keep doing it, and I'll be happy for you. But the only thing that synergizes at all with the Druid's natural capabilities is the ability to cast Bull's Strength. Now, slap that strategy on a Cleric, and you're good to go. They even get heavy (metal) armor, so they don't have to care about Dex. Or a Fighter, really. Yeah, that's actually a solid Fighter strategy (they have feats to burn; go ahead and grab that exotic weapon). Also, you might want to specify what Exotic Weapon you're using. (I'm guessing a Spiked Chain?) If I think about what would happen if a Bard and a Fighter went toe-to-toe... Assuming the Bard did NOT have several rounds to buff himself (something which will ALWAYS give ANY casting type an advantage), the Fighter would charge, and make and AoO to disrupt any casting or special actions pretty much every round. By the time the Bard could get any magical enhancements on himself at all, he'd be pretty badly hurt, and the fighter wouldn't have a scratch on him. You're assuming the Fighter wins initiative. Even if he does, he needs to trip or grapple the bard, or kill him in one round. Otherwise, the Bard can cast (Greater) Invisibility or Dimension Door (out of a wand if necessary, which won't provoke AOOs, even if the Bard can't successfully cast defensively on a Concentration check roll of 1). That'll give him some breathing room to buff himself up and heal. That said, when I'm playing a fighter, and find an enemy who HAS had time to buff himself, you know what I do? Run. And then come back a few minutes later when their spells have worn off and THEN beat the @#$% out of them. And while you're running, your fully buffed spellcasting opponent is probably flying. And chucking spells with a range in excess of a hundred feet.
Grumman 12-16-07, 05:47 PM	That may be the worst advice I've ever seen on how to play a Druid. If it works for you, great. Keep doing it, and I'll be happy for you. But the only thing that synergizes at all with the Druid's natural capabilities is the ability to cast Bull's Strength. Now, slap that strategy on a Cleric, and you're good to go. They even get heavy (metal) armor, so they don't have to care about Dex. Or a Fighter, really. Yeah, that's actually a solid Fighter strategy (they have feats to burn; go ahead and grab that exotic weapon). In my defense, the game did start below 5th level, so Wild Shape was not an option at first. And without access to Create Food and Water, the party might not have survived the first adventure if I'd played a Cleric. Also, you might want to specify what Exotic Weapon you're using. (I'm guessing a Spiked Chain?) Great Falchion, actually.
Cold Napalm 12-16-07, 07:02 PM	That's only true if: A: The battles you face are substantially harder than anything published in an official Dungeons and Dragons adventure. Umm no. I seen a player who loves fighters play straight fighters in the cormyr and shadowdale campaign (unfortunately he's not very good at optimizing...but neither is he new with no knoweldge of what various feats do) and he was pretty much getting overshadowed by EVERYONE in combat. This included the new player who was a BARD for crying out loud. He was about as useful as a 5 ft segment of wall since. In shadowdale, he even switched out a bit to TRY the lockdown builds (and since his concept of optimization is weak) he failed. So yes, I have seen fighters built to be useful and good. No it's not something many can do well enough...even if they aren't new. It's easy to build one to be near useless if your playing in FR published games(or at that level of difficulty or more in your homebrew game).
Bopple 12-16-07, 07:08 PM	Just minor nitpicking. It takes a lot of experience, detailed knowledge of the system, and a pretty good selection of splat-books to build a really good Fighter 20. It's Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, Complete Arcane(Mage Slayer), PHB2 and SRD(Stand Still). That's all. Since they are the most popular of all the splatbooks, it's not really an issue. Seriously, without Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, barbarian's damage potential isn't that great. If barbarian has access to CAdv and CW, it's no big deal for fighter, either. Moreover, I have never seen any group with CAdv but without CW, CArc or PHB2. Even if he does, he needs to trip or grapple the bard, or kill him in one round. Otherwise, the Bard can cast (Greater) Invisibility or Dimension Door (out of a wand if necessary, which won't provoke AOOs, even if the Bard can't successfully cast defensively on a Concentration check roll of 1). That'll give him some breathing room to buff himself up and heal. Well, that is a duel tactics. Few players actually build their characters or buy magic items for dueling. And Gr. Invis and Dim. door are among the most popular choices for 4th lvl bard spells, anyway. And... since the introduction of lion totem alternative feature, it's quite easy to kill any single opponent in 1 round. Though it requires 1-lvl dip of barbarian...
Cold Napalm 12-16-07, 07:15 PM	If I think about what would happen if a Bard and a Fighter went toe-to-toe... Assuming the Bard did NOT have several rounds to buff himself (something which will ALWAYS give ANY casting type an advantage), the Fighter would charge, and make and AoO to disrupt any casting or special actions pretty much every round. By the time the Bard could get any magical enhancements on himself at all, he'd be pretty badly hurt, and the fighter wouldn't have a scratch on him. Umm are you enlarged? If not 5 ft step pretty much negates your AoO. So your rather bad tactics fails. If your a smart fighter player, you charge and GRAPPLE. Of course, this assumes for some reason we start off 60 ft or less apart AND assume you win init and the bard fails to HEAR you coming from a mile away for some reason...thats a lot of situationals there. This also applies to Fighter and Wizard, and also to Fighter and CoD, to a lesser degree. That is why all fighters should have Improved Initiative. No exceptions. Umm no...see wizards have contingency. They have greater mirror image. They have celerity if they need it. You win init and then the wizard casts celerity and you still lose. Against clerics...well the 5 ft step still exists, but you could still grapple them and your MUCH more likely to succeed in the other two situation over say...the bard who has listen in class. Against the druid...yeah...good luck. The fighter grapples...the druid shapechanges into a dire polar bear and snacks on you. That said, when I'm playing a fighter, and find an enemy who HAS had time to buff himself, you know what I do? Run. And then come back a few minutes later when their spells have worn off and THEN beat the @#$% out of them. That also makes the Run feat a useful commodity, especially if you've got a chain shirt or some other relatively light armor. chain shirt = light armor = bad AC unless your gonna suffer from MAD. So unless your playing significantly over 32 point buy, it's gonna hurt. I had a player who insisted on a fighter in light armor with low dex...he negated the clerics of the party since all the cleric could do each round was heal the stupid fighter's ass. Oh and the running away tactics...yeah see...the funny thing is that a lot of spells have a range (usually in the 100+ feet range) which means good luck on the running away tactic(if this works for you for some reason in your games, then the DM is just being too nice since when a caster is played right, it's not a viable tactic...really). As a player, NPC who try to run from my casters don't make it. As a DM, the same holds true. If you attempt special escape tactics however(say run then hide), they might work...but just running...ummm no.
dawnbringer 12-16-07, 07:38 PM	Umm no...see wizards have contingency. They have greater mirror image. They have celerity if they need it. You win init and then the wizard casts celerity and you still lose. Against clerics...well the 5 ft step still exists, but you could still grapple them and your MUCH more likely to succeed in the other two situation over say...the bard who has listen in class. Against the druid...yeah...good luck. The fighter grapples...the druid shapechanges into a dire polar bear and snacks on you. I'm going to use your own words against you. You ASSUME that every single wizard picks celerity as a spel (from what i've heard, most wizards don't)l, and assume he has the spell prepared or hasn't used it. You assume every wizard isn't a specialist with illusions as one of his prohibited schools, and that the wizard can cast mirror image before combat (Mirror image is negated anyway by one of the mage slayer feats). You assume every wizard has contingency. You assume the fighter will start a fight at greater than charging range so a bard can listen for him coming. Thats a lot of situationals there.
Cold Napalm 12-16-07, 08:13 PM	I'm going to use your own words against you. You ASSUME that every single wizard picks celerity as a spel (from what i've heard, most wizards don't)l, and assume he has the spell prepared or hasn't used it. You assume every wizard isn't a specialist with illusions as one of his prohibited schools, and that the wizard can cast mirror image before combat (Mirror image is negated anyway by one of the mage slayer feats). You assume every wizard has contingency. You assume the fighter will start a fight at greater than charging range so a bard can listen for him coming. Thats a lot of situationals there. Umm celerity IS a widely picked spell. I have no idea what you heard but in optimzied play, it's a must have. That like playing a druid without natural spell. It can happen...and it does only if the person really is THAT clueless. Secondly, we said wizard...I heard no mention of specialist. Your just changing the rules outright now. And greater mirror image is an imediate spell...no need to cast ahead of time. Oh and pierce magical concealment doesn't work againt greater mirror image since the feat specifically says it lets you pick out the real you from figments in the mirror image spell...not any other spell. I know that greater mirror image came out after pierce magical concealment but then they could have put a blurb about in the greater mirror image, but they didn't, so by raw, it doesn't work(of course I see nothing wrong with ruling it does since really, wizards is just very bad about these things...and it makes sense...but by raw, no go). Oh and contingency...umm I have no idea WHAT kind of wizard your use to playing but any wizard with his salt has one or more of these babies ready to go. Yes IF we assume the wizard has expanded his daily spell slots and isn't using a rope trick to get them back...or teleporting somewhere safe (which is DUMB mind you and why a wizard with genius+ level of int is doing something so dumb is beyond me) then your fighter wins. Not because the fighter was any good but more because the person using the wizard was just THAT bad. Oh and the bard hearing you...who said you have to be charging for them to hear you?!? Your in armor right? How good is your move silently skill again? Moving at normal speed? Against MAX ranked listen checks?!? Yeah that's what I thought. You know I'm starting to think that you think the fighter is that good because the people who play casters in your group really is THAT bad. No 5 ft step to get away from an AoO...my gods man, no wonder. No celerity?!? for crying out loud. No contingency? No recouping spells when they are low? WTF?!?
tyrandor 12-17-07, 12:18 AM	>_> Rope Trick to regain spells? <_<
Enigmis 12-17-07, 12:29 AM	I'm going to use your own words against you. You ASSUME that every single wizard picks celerity as a spel (from what i've heard, most wizards don't)l, and assume he has the spell prepared or hasn't used it. You assume every wizard isn't a specialist with illusions as one of his prohibited schools, and that the wizard can cast mirror image before combat (Mirror image is negated anyway by one of the mage slayer feats). You assume every wizard has contingency. You assume the fighter will start a fight at greater than charging range so a bard can listen for him coming. Thats a lot of situationals there. every wizard should have celerity, always. No exceptions.
Cold Napalm 12-17-07, 01:14 AM	>_> Rope Trick to regain spells? <_< after level 8 (or level 4 if you have a lesser rod of extend spell) you can use it to rest up and get your spells back. Well technically I think it's 9 and 5 since you need 1 hour to prep up.
dawnbringer 12-17-07, 05:52 AM	You know I'm starting to think that you think the fighter is that good because the people who play casters in your group really is THAT bad. No 5 ft step to get away from an AoO...my gods man, no wonder. No celerity?!? for crying out loud. No contingency? No recouping spells when they are low? WTF?!? Nah, everyone in my group uses 5 ft steps (Since when did I say anything about that at all?!?!), and recuperates their spells (Since when did I say wizards don't recuperate spells?). I was saying that the wizard wont have contingency on for a spell prepared to "stop the fighter hurting you". Sure, they can have a normal spell put in contingency, but any fighter in the group would know what spell he's put on, or be smart enough to wait till its used up (Should any pvp fighting occur). What I was getting at with the listen thing is that if your in a party with a bard, your not going to be 150 ft away from him. In my group, no one has access to the book with celerity in it apart from me and another person (they have access to loads n loads of other books). And that the only other person who has access to the book doesn't play wizards. In any case, casting celerity does not mean an autowin. So the people who i play with do play their caster classes good. The only problem i have is, and I suppose I should of said this earlier, that you make it out so that wizards are gods, and that they autowin vs fighters. And this is so untrue. That's why I posted about using your own words against you, it appears that you are one of those people who are just "Anti-Fighter" and refuse to say they are good at anything.
Pezz 12-17-07, 07:14 PM	Sure, they can have a normal spell put in contingency, but any fighter in the group would know what spell he's put on, or be smart enough to wait till its used up (Should any pvp fighting occur). So you are arguing that a fighter can betray and kill the wizard in his own party, rather than that a fighter can kill a wizard in a straight-up fight. What I was getting at with the listen thing is that if your in a party with a bard, your not going to be 150 ft away from him. Chances are if you are in a party with anyone, you are not going to be more than 100ft away from them. In my group, no one has access to the book with celerity in it apart from me and another person (they have access to loads n loads of other books). And that the only other person who has access to the book doesn't play wizards. So, in your group, the players can only use content from books that they own, not what books are brought? The only problem i have is, and I suppose I should of said this earlier, that you make it out so that wizards are gods, and that they autowin vs fighters. And this is so untrue. You're right. at low levels, wizards are not gods and don't auto-win against fighters. Here is a challenge, make a Fighter 20 who can stand up to a wizard 20 in an arena, they start out 20' away from each other. standard 23 point buy, with wealth/level equipment.
CryoSilver 12-17-07, 09:20 PM	If the fighter takes several Initiative boosting feats and gets to go first, he can easily kill the wizard in one hit, presuming the wizard has no defenses prepared. Charge + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + 20 Str (with items, being conservative), + Greatsword = minimum of 69 damage with at least +27 to hit. If he takes Pouncing Charge by way of Martial Study, he can make that into a full attack.
Pezz 12-17-07, 10:00 PM	What wizard worth his salt does not have spells prepared? For a very basic defense Contingency: An enemy would attempt to strike me with a weapon Spell: displacement equipment: ring of blink, custom ring of blur your chances of hitting, if you beat the wizard's AC: 0.8 x 0.5 x0.5 = 0.2 (20% chance) I am sure there are better spells out there, but i dont play wizards very often so i dont have access to all the splat books that make them truly overpowering. Thus, only core spells and items in this reply. That is basically the only thing that a fighter can do against a wizard. hope to be close and kill it before it gets to the wizard's turn, because once that happens, the wizard controls the fight. That is the problem with the fighter. specialization. Yes, they are good at one thing, but once that one thing no longer works, they can't do much else, while the wizard is completely adaptable.
Cold Napalm 12-18-07, 01:17 AM	Nah, everyone in my group uses 5 ft steps (Since when did I say anything about that at all?!?!), and recuperates their spells (Since when did I say wizards don't recuperate spells?). I was saying that the wizard wont have contingency on for a spell prepared to "stop the fighter hurting you". Sure, they can have a normal spell put in contingency, but any fighter in the group would know what spell he's put on, or be smart enough to wait till its used up (Should any pvp fighting occur). What I was getting at with the listen thing is that if your in a party with a bard, your not going to be 150 ft away from him. Why are we killing our party members prey tell?!? I don't know about your game, but the wizards I kill as a fighter in my games certainly isn't the one in the party. Oh and why would the wizard tell you what contingency he has up again? I mean honestly, I don't tell the party what spells I memorize, much less contingencies. IF they request that I memorize a certain spell, I will most likely do it, but that's about it. In my group, no one has access to the book with celerity in it apart from me and another person (they have access to loads n loads of other books). And that the only other person who has access to the book doesn't play wizards. In any case, casting celerity does not mean an autowin. This also makes me question some issues with your group dynamics at this point... So the people who i play with do play their caster classes good. I'm still doubting it...not that I don't think that you THINK they play well...but I don't think so, or you wouldn't really be talking as you do. The only problem i have is, and I suppose I should of said this earlier, that you make it out so that wizards are gods, and that they autowin vs fighters. And this is so untrue. That's why I posted about using your own words against you, it appears that you are one of those people who are just "Anti-Fighter" and refuse to say they are good at anything. Fighters are great...for 1-2 levels. Most of my favorite builds have at least 1 level of fighter in it. And wizards ARE gods at high levels who do auto win vs fighters unless 1) the wizard is played by a moron or 2) you betray the wizard THAT throughly(like they trust you enough to tell you what their contingency is...). oh and once again...why are we killing our party members again?!? No really...why?!?
Cold Napalm 12-18-07, 01:20 AM	If the fighter takes several Initiative boosting feats and gets to go first, he can easily kill the wizard in one hit, presuming the wizard has no defenses prepared. Charge + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + 20 Str (with items, being conservative), + Greatsword = minimum of 69 damage with at least +27 to hit. If he takes Pouncing Charge by way of Martial Study, he can make that into a full attack. Why yes, if you run inro a defenseless wizard you win. just like if you run into a defenseless ANYTHING you win. That's kinda moot point here. The point is that a SMART wizard is never without some sort of defensive or evasive spell (well beyond a certain low level treshhold anyways).
Pezz 12-18-07, 01:36 AM	Yes, that was a challenge. He can kill a defenseless wizard who is 20' away. unfortunately for him, that wizard wasn't completely defenseless. a 20% chance to hit is definitely the odds favoring the wizard, and that is with contingency only and no other preparation... I am sure that you can figure out a better defense since i was using core only.
CryoSilver 12-18-07, 02:29 AM	And the fighter is equally unable to prepare contingencies? Fighters can be smart, too. Also, the premise of "20' apart in an arena" made no mention of time to prepare, so I assumed there was none. Also, I didn't say 20% chance to hit. I said +27 to hit, as in d20+27, 37.5 average. The wizard would need an AC of at least 44 for +27 to be a 20% chance to hit. And that +27 doesn't include any enhancement bonuses or Weapon Focus. Or the Magebane property. A smart fighter will have an item that lets him use Mordenkainen's Disjunction on the wizard, or at the very least, Greater Dispelling.
Pezz 12-18-07, 02:35 AM	the 20% chance to hit was from blur (ring, 20% chance to miss), blink (ring 50% chance to miss) and displacement (contingency, 50% chance to miss), thus 0.8*0.5*0.5 = 0.2 your bonus to hit is irrelevant. as for the disjunction item, using an item is a standard action, thus you would be unable to charge after doing so, letting the wizard go first again. 20% chance to hit, or destroy the wizard's preparations and let him go first? edit: contingency lasts for 1 week. it is not unreasonable to assume that the wizard has it up essentially all the time.
Bopple 12-18-07, 07:01 AM	The miss chance of Blur & Displacement and a part of Blink miss chance all come from Concealment and therefore overlap with each other. It's 0.4 = 0.8(blinking etherealness)x0.5(concealment), all added.
Asmodeur 12-18-07, 08:23 AM	the 20% chance to hit was from blur (ring, 20% chance to miss), blink (ring 50% chance to miss) and displacement (contingency, 50% chance to miss), thus 0.8*0.5*0.5 = 0.2 your bonus to hit is irrelevant. as for the disjunction item, using an item is a standard action, thus you would be unable to charge after doing so, letting the wizard go first again. 20% chance to hit, or destroy the wizard's preparations and let him go first? edit: contingency lasts for 1 week. it is not unreasonable to assume that the wizard has it up essentially all the time. First of all, ring of blinking needs to be activated, which is kinda hard. I doubt wizards walk around with blink activated permanently, as it would be pretty darn hard to deal with 24/7. ring of blur, while i am not familiar with it, I will bet that it is likewise, limited to activation and not a permanent effect. When all is said, your suggestions are fairly common and would be countered easily by any highlevel fighter worth his salt. Item of True Seeing anyone? I guess that removes blur and displacement? (am not familiar with greater displacement though). And blink, ah well, that easily handled with a ghost touch weapon, right? Forget about that, let's just say the fighter has a weapon with anti-magic field. Ups. He drops the rat in his hand (free action), kills the rat with full PA, which activates antimagic field, then cleaves the crap out of the mage with rest of the attacks! With no magic to sustain the wizard, he won't have many. Even if the wizard by miracle survives, he is stuck. Between mage-slayer feat and improved trip, odds favor the fighter :) Anyway, to most set-ups there is an easy counter, its like playing "what if". You can always find an easy counter. At the end of the day, I agree that the wizard is way more powerful than the fighter, and that the fighter in many situations is quite bad at higher level, no matter the amount of splatbooks used. But a lot of it comes down to the player, and that is why we all have very different experiences with the power-balance between the classes. Cheers
dawnbringer 12-18-07, 11:45 AM	In response to the challenge to create a level 20 fighter that can beat a level 20 wizard, here is one. It was quickly done, but would get the job done and has very good bonuses on will saves. An alternative fighter could focus on charging instead of on weapon focus tree. Human Fighter 20 FF = Fighter Feat NF = Normal Feat 1:Human Feat: EWP: Spiked Chain FF: Power Attack NF: Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) 2: FF: Blind Fight 3: NF: Mage Slayer 4: FF: Pierce Magical Concealment 6: FF: Pierce Magical Protection NF: Weapon Specialisation (Spiked Chain) 8: FF: Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing) 9: NF: Improved Initiative 10: FF: Combat Expertise 12: FF: Greater Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) NF: Improved Trip 14: FF: Greater Weapon Specialisation (Spiked Chain) 15: NF: Combat Focus 16: FF: Dodge 18: FF: Weapon Supremecy (Spiked Chain) NF: Combat Vigor 20: Combat Defense Weapon: +1 (Gloryborn) Magebane Shock Corrosive Shocking Burst Air Elemental Power (Elder) Spell Storing (Dispel Magic) Lightning Surge Illusion Bane Spiked Chain. Shield: +3 (Gloryborn) Animated Reflecting Heavy Steel Shield Armour: +4 (Gloryborn) Death Ward Proof against Transmutation Planar Tolerance Slippery Mind (Insert Armour here). Equipment: Ring of Counterspells (Spell of your choice), Ring of Mental Fortitude, Magic Siphon, Lenses of True Form, Boots (Winged), Amulet of the planes (In backpack) and all of the usual stuff including ability score increasing items and cloaks of resistance.
Pezz 12-18-07, 01:42 PM	I dont have a whole lot of splatbooks available to me, as i said, so where are those weapon and armor enchantments from? what do they do and what bonus are they? I am unfamiliar with Gloryborn, Magebane, Corrosive, Air Elemental Power (Elder), Lightning Surge, and Illusion Bane.
CryoSilver 12-18-07, 01:44 PM	Corrosive is like Flaming but with acid. Magebane is like the other Bane properties, but it works against spellcasters and creature's with spell-like abilities (and it is INCREDIBLY potent at higher levels, because most everything has spell-like abilites by then).
dawnbringer 12-18-07, 02:11 PM	If you are unfamiliar with Gloryborn, Magebane, Corrosive, Air Elemental Power (Elder), Lightning Surge, and Illusion Bane, then you will also be unfamiliar with Slippery mind, Death Ward and Proof against transmutation. Lightning surge is a 2000gp enhancement to a weapon that allows you to, on a successful melee attack, deal an extra 2d6 points of electricity damage as a swift action, usable an amount of times per day equal to your cha modifier. Illusion bane is a 7000gp enhancement to a weapon that negates the miss chance provided by illusion magic (such as blur or displacement), even if they are generated from magic items. In addition, a successful hit allows you to make a dispel check to dispel all illusion magic effecting the target (Once per day). If he has none on him then the effect isnt wasted. Or, instead of dispelling the magic thats on the target, it can be used to dispel a single illusion by touching it. Slippery mind is a 45,000 gp armour enhancement that allows the wearer to make a second save against an enchantment spell or effect that he failed 1 round later. Hmmm, this armour enhancement might not even be necessary with ring of mental fortitude. Air Elemental Power (Elder) is a +4 weapon enhancement that allows the wielder to summon an elder air elemental for 17 rounds. Death Ward is a +1 armour enhancement that allows the wearer to be uneffected by any death effect, energy drain and etc (As death ward spell) once per day. Proof against Transmutation is a +5 armour enhancement that makes makes the wearer immune to any transmutation effect that would alter his form, including polymorph and petrification effects, as well as disintigration. The wearer can choose to let certain spells bypass this so he can have things like enlarge person effect him. Gloryborn is a specially crafted weapon by someone on Ysgard. On armour it provide +1 bonus to AC when you charge and costs an extra 150gp. On weapons it deals an extra 1 damage on a charge attack and costs an extra 600 gp. If you want to know what any of the items i posted do (Such as ring of mental fortitude), say and I will give a brief discription. Also, if you don't know any feats, say and I will provide a brief description.
Pezz 12-18-07, 03:06 PM	ok, i concede. I dont have time to go hunting through what books i do have(finals on thursday, DnD has to take a back burner) and that looks like it would kill a wizard if it managed to get into melee range and went first.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 12-18-07, 06:04 PM	In any case, the fighter is better than the bard. *Points to* Personally I like... Bard 4, Crusader 2, Ab Champ 2, JPM 2, Sublime Chord 2, JPM 8 This nets you a +18 BAB, 9th level spells, 8th level maneuvers, fairly decent saves, and some neat/useful abilities. And that just proves your silly. :D *** Armour: +4 (Gloryborn) Death Ward Proof against Transmutation Planar Tolerance Slippery Mind (Insert Armour here). ... Death Ward is a +1 armour enhancement ... Proof against Transmutation is a +5 armour enhancement ... You cannot have a total of +6 in named enchantments for the same reason you cannot own a +6 chainmail tunic. *** Fighters are just that, fighters. They are generic, designed to be flexible and tailored to fit the role you want them to be. A noob can play them easy enough, but as you learn more of the game, a fighter becomes more and more complex. As a generic class, they won't deal as much as another class focused on damaging (barbarian/FB charger, warblade), or high amounts of mobility (scout, rogue, warblade), and others will specialize in areas better than the fighter (twf rogue, paladins-on-flying-mounts, warblade). Only the fighter (and warblade) can master charging, and tripping, and still have room to try and be something else in combat.
dawnbringer 12-18-07, 06:21 PM	You CAN own a +6 tunic, after its an epic item:P. Once something becomes epic, you can add what you want to it. But regardless, I'm 100% certain you can have +6 named bonuses before epic, all the way up to +9. While the DMG does state you can't go above +5 in the generic bonus (i.e. +5 fullplate), it does NOT state anywhere that you can't go above +5 named bonuses.
Cifer 12-18-07, 07:24 PM	You cannot have a total of +6 in named enchantments for the same reason you cannot own a +6 chainmail tunic. Actually, you can. You just can't go over +10 in total and +5 in enhancement bonus for any weapon. BTW, in regards to the current "challenge", a wizard's most simple tactics: 1.) Survive fighter's first turn (or rather: Make sure that he never gets a first turn by having a contingency up so he doesn't get AoOs because he's still flatfooted) 2.) Gate in a Solar 3.) Quickened Teleport home for a nice cup of cocoa
dawnbringer 12-18-07, 07:32 PM	Actually, you can. You just can't go over +10 in total and +5 in enhancement bonus for any weapon. BTW, in regards to the current "challenge", a wizard's most simple tactics: 1.) Survive fighter's first turn (or rather: Make sure that he never gets a first turn by having a contingency up so he doesn't get AoOs because he's still flatfooted) 2.) Gate in a Solar 3.) Quickened Teleport home for a nice cup of cocoa 1) See reflecting property on shield. 2) Moot if reflecting property cancels out contingency. 3) See 2) Gating in a solar costs XP btw, just in case you forgot :). Also assuming you do get solar, the build I posted had amulet of the planes. Gate in Solar then quicken teleport? Planeshift away and have a nice cup of cocoa.
Bopple 12-18-07, 07:49 PM	Magebane is like the other Bane properties, but it works against spellcasters and creature's with spell-like abilities (and it is INCREDIBLY potent at higher levels, because most everything has spell-like abilites by then). No longer true after Magic Item Compendium. It only works against arcane spellcasters now.
Bopple 12-18-07, 07:51 PM	Illusion bane is a 7000gp enhancement to a weapon AFAIK, it's +1 weapon special ability.
Cifer 12-18-07, 08:06 PM	1) See reflecting property on shield. The reflecting property as it's written in my DMG just says This shield seems like a mirror. Its surface is completely reflective. Once per day, it can be called on to reflect a spell back at its caster exactly like the spell turning spell. I've got no problem with any spell reflected back onto me - hell, the contingent celerity is supposed to be cast on me! Also assuming you do get solar, the build I posted had amulet of the planes. Gate in Solar then quicken teleport? Planeshift away and have a nice cup of cocoa. So you can flee (assuming you do so instantly, before the solar has the chance to i.e. sunder your amulet or dimensional lock you (against which your reflecting shield would indeed be effective, though)) - You said you could "beat" a wizard. Oh, and since I just read it: Your amulet of the planes is in your backpack - getting it might take a while... Edit: I just noticed that a Contingency can only trigger spells up to 6th level. Oh well, then a normal celerity (to be used for a normal teleport) will have to do. Or possibly just a normal teleport, though I like the celerity option better since it leaves me somewhat flexible. Whatever. After that, I'll probably take the next few days to prepare a scry&fry. Gating in a solar costs XP btw, just in case you forgot . So? Defeating a CR20 opponent alone should make up for the 1000.
CryoSilver 12-18-07, 09:48 PM	No longer true after Magic Item Compendium. It only works against arcane spellcasters now. Aw... Boo! Hiss!
Kimokeo 12-18-07, 10:56 PM	The OP author, I think, stated he only had the 3 core books. I think you'd have to think about what the party needs and what you want to play. If I had to choose fighter, I like the Dwarf in Full Plate and Tower Shield. Before even considering magical items, his AC is 22. A 12 Dex makes it 23. That's pretty good. Most characters are spending their gold just to reach that number while your fighter is already there by 3rd level. They're also buffing - losing rounds to get there. The normal magic enhancements to the armor and shield, along with a ring and his AC is now far ahead of most characters. The other members may still need more magic items and/or spells. The Ranger and Barbarian are restricted for armor and all others have to burn a feat for the tower shield. I choose the Dwarf because he CAN use tumble. His movement rate is not reduced so he is allowed to tumble. Now, someone mentioned 20th fighter vs 20th magicuser? Well, that'll all depend on WHERE. I'll take my 20th level Dwarf underground with you in a nice dark 10' diameter room. OOOOHHH, I see - the fight must be above ground and we start apart from each other, say about a mile? How about taking your mage with me underground with the room completely filled with water? How about a larger room filled with a mist with 5' visibility? I hate the 20v20 competitions. Location, location, location.
dawnbringer 12-19-07, 06:03 AM	AFAIK, it's +1 weapon special ability. No it isn't.
dawnbringer 12-19-07, 06:23 AM	The reflecting property as it's written in my DMG just says I've got no problem with any spell reflected back onto me - hell, the contingent celerity is supposed to be cast on me! So you can flee (assuming you do so instantly, before the solar has the chance to i.e. sunder your amulet or dimensional lock you (against which your reflecting shield would indeed be effective, though)) - You said you could "beat" a wizard. Oh, and since I just read it: Your amulet of the planes is in your backpack - getting it might take a while... Edit: I just noticed that a Contingency can only trigger spells up to 6th level. Oh well, then a normal celerity (to be used for a normal teleport) will have to do. Or possibly just a normal teleport, though I like the celerity option better since it leaves me somewhat flexible. Whatever. After that, I'll probably take the next few days to prepare a scry&fry. So? Defeating a CR20 opponent alone should make up for the 1000. Any spell that you cast on yourself won't be reflected, obviously. Besides, if your contingency is set up to teleport you home whenever your attacked if would have gone off way before now assuming you adventure (And you get no Solar). And if you do have it running, its not a very good contingent spell to have on, as you will never win any battles that way, you'll just teleport away everytime you try and fight something nasty. Getting the Solar to Sunder Amulet of the planes is out of character knowledge, how are you or the solar gonna know I have it, especially if its in my backpack. Taking it out is gonna be a move equivalent action, and using it a standard action, so theres no problem there. Yes, I can "Flee". But wait, so did you. I'm not talking about defeating a Solar here. You can try scrying me but it won't work. I'll just wait until we meet again, or heck, pay someone to scry on YOU. Then i'll do what you will undoubtedly say that you will do, Buff myself up and come after you, while you can't see me coming. Now I can safely assume you won't have teleport contingency up, because you will be attempting to "Scy & Fry", and in order to "Fry", you don't wan't your plan to "Fry" to mess up because you got attacked by me or my Air elemental and teleported back home. I don't know if you can with scrying, but is it possible to learn what magical equipment your target has and what contingent spell he has prepared on himself? @ Kimokeo: I totally agree with you on location location location. For fairness we aren't started a mile apart, we are starting 20 ft apart. But yeah, location was neglected. What if we were in a dimensionally anchored room where gates and teleport weren't possible? Or underground as you said (Gotta love blindfight)? Or even in a room? Location DOES matter, thank you for pointing that out.
Grumman 12-19-07, 06:35 AM	@ Kimokeo: I totally agree with you on location location location. For fairness we aren't started a mile apart, we are starting 20 ft apart. But yeah, location was neglected. What if we were in a dimensionally anchored room where gates and teleport weren't possible? Or underground as you said (Gotta love blindfight)? Or even in a room? Location DOES matter, thank you for pointing that out. You have a ****** up definition of "fairness".
dawnbringer 12-19-07, 06:59 AM	You have a ****** up definition of "fairness". So to you fairness is the wizard and fighter starting a mile apart? You have a ****** up definition of "fairness".
Enigmis 12-19-07, 10:19 AM	So to you fairness is the wizard and fighter starting a mile apart? You have a ****** up definition of "fairness". fairness isn't giving one side an advantage. He never said they started a mile, stop making crap up.
dawnbringer 12-19-07, 11:08 AM	He did say that I was being unfair by saying we start off 20 ft away from each other. That's bull sh!t. I'd say the encounter starts in a fairly common place for encounters to be, in a tavern.
Enigmis 12-19-07, 11:55 AM	He did say that I was being unfair by saying we start off 20 ft away from each other. That's bull sh!t. I'd say the encounter starts in a fairly common place for encounters to be, in a tavern. 20 ft clearly favors the fighter in this situation, thus not "fair". Just because its common doesnt mean its fair. Also taverns for encounters??? I was thinking more of an open plains or in the mountains, not a constricted building.
Urithair 12-19-07, 12:15 PM	Dawnbringer, while I respect your valid opinion that fighter is a valid class and that it can make valid, powerful builds, I can't help but jump in and say that by level 20 casters ARE gods and you lose. Lets assume that your level 20 build wins init in an arena and charges the wizard. Well, wizard always has foresight up, so in that split second where he gets to respond he casts celerity and then casts timestop. Now he has basically won. I use this example because pretty much any full arcane caster will most probably be doing this by the time they can cast 9th level spells. A sorcerer would celerity into greater arcane fusion, into celerity into greater arcane fusion, into celerity into greater arcane fusion, into celerity into greater arcane fusion (at this point he has lost because he has become a Dragon Ball Z character). The greatest power of the fighter is twofold: He works in an AMF, and he retains most of his abilities after being polymorphed into an eldritch horror, glazed with the proper mix of buff spells, and sprinkled with magic items. Bake for 30 minutes on 275, let sit for 10 minutes before serving.
dawnbringer 12-19-07, 12:48 PM	well thats just wrong. Foresight lasts only 10 mins/level. So a wizard will not have it up all the time, no matter how you put it. And if your saying he has foresight on, you might aswell say he has haste, bears endurance, greater blink, superior invisibility, as the frost, and loads of other buff spells active. Sorry, but no, you can not say he has foresight active. Also @ enigmis, what your saying isn't fair for the fighter. We make it so that each person can effect the other in their first round, thus fair, so 20 ft away from each other is the way to do it.
CryoSilver 12-19-07, 01:17 PM	If the wizard always has buffs up, I think it'smore than fair that the fighter always has an antimagic field up, or an item that lets him use Disjunction, or both.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-19-07, 02:15 PM	If the wizard always has buffs up, I think it'smore than fair that the fighter always has an antimagic field up, or an item that lets him use Disjunction, or both. Sure, why not? It just means he'll lose faster. If you are stuck inside an AMF, there is nothing you can do, nothing at all. You are quite literally a sitting duck. Then the Wizard gates in Horrible monster #3.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-19-07, 02:18 PM	well thats just wrong. Foresight lasts only 10 mins/level. So a wizard will not have it up all the time, no matter how you put it. And if your saying he has foresight on, you might aswell say he has haste, bears endurance, greater blink, superior invisibility, as the frost, and loads of other buff spells active. Sorry, but no, you can not say he has foresight active. Also @ enigmis, what your saying isn't fair for the fighter. We make it so that each person can effect the other in their first round, thus fair, so 20 ft away from each other is the way to do it. He will have foresight up when it matters. Like say when he's not sitting in his tower on his very own demiplane but rather adventuring through the use of Astral Projection. Seriously man, you have no idea how Wizards work.
Cifer 12-19-07, 03:00 PM	@Dawnbringer Please don't put words in my mouth or contingencies on my character - the contingency triggers Celerity, which instantly gives me a standard action to use as I see fit, for example by teleporting out if I get the feeling the combat may be more than I can chew. Regarding the amulet: When you get it out of your backpack, you provoke an AoO - AoOs are perfect opportunities to hinder the things that trigger them. If you're standing against a solar and the thing you'd like to do most instead of whacking him is pulling an amulet out of your backpack, chances are you believe it to be more important than attacking the epic angel. That's a conclusion I wouldn't put past an Int23/Wis25 outsider. By the way, what part of your equipment makes you immune against scrying? And finally: After we both flee the scene of combat, we're both somewhere on the planes. Please tell me how you're going to "come after me while I can't see you coming", especially when no part of your character seems to be built around the concept of stealth or even just rapid locomotion?
CryoSilver 12-19-07, 03:10 PM	Sure, why not? It just means he'll lose faster. If you are stuck inside an AMF, there is nothing you can do, nothing at all. You are quite literally a sitting duck. Then the Wizard gates in Horrible monster #3. If it is centered on the fighter, and he wins initiative and gets within 10 feet of the caster, none of the caster's buffs or defenses matter. If the wizard gates in monsters, the fighter drops the field, uses Disjunction and puts the field back up.
Cifer 12-19-07, 03:46 PM	If the wizard gates in monsters, the fighter drops the field, uses Disjunction and puts the field back up. Where does the fighter get the easily droppable and recreateable AMF from? AMF is one of the spells with a very inherent limitation: It essentially screws the user (who has to be a mid-level mage) in addition to anything near you. For me, that sounds like a reason to not make it possible as a custom at will wondrous item.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-19-07, 04:18 PM	If it is centered on the fighter, and he wins initiative and gets within 10 feet of the caster, none of the caster's buffs or defenses matter. If the wizard gates in monsters, the fighter drops the field, uses Disjunction and puts the field back up. Uhh the Wizard in question had foresight up. The fighter never gets in an action. Disjunction also doesn't work on gated monsters.
Urithair 12-19-07, 04:31 PM	Actually, by level 20 you can bet he will have it up ALL THE TIME, especially if it will save your life. Given a caster level of 24 (which is low for a 20th level caster, go figure) and an extend, that lasts 480 minutes, which is 8 hours. So three castings get him 24 hours. Even that is unrealistic because it will probably only be one casting that is then persisted. Given that this spell is the key to his high level defense, it makes perfect sense that he has it up. I'm limiting him to one buff, which is being nice. There are a number of spells which will last all day or longer by this level, even without an extend. It is reasonable to expect a spellcaster to have at least one spell up, just as it is reasonable to expect the fighter to have his gear on him. Even with the best scenario (arena conditions, win init, AMF generated from sword, within charging distance), you can only win if you start with the caster inside an AMF, or if he has no buff spells up at all, or if the caster is unconscious. Those last three conditions are completely unrealistic however, and amount to saying "I can win as long as the conditions are such that you can't do anything about my attack. AKA I can win if you have already lost." Remember, saying that a caster doesn't have A spell up is as absurd as saying the fighter doesn't have ANY arms or equipment.
CryoSilver 12-19-07, 04:33 PM	Uhh the Wizard in question had foresight up. The fighter never gets in an action. Disjunction also doesn't work on gated monsters. Then the fighter laughs because the wizard wasted 1000 XP, and runs away, content that he has screwed over the wizard anyways.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-19-07, 04:42 PM	Then the fighter laughs because the wizard wasted 1000 XP, and runs away, content that he has screwed over the wizard anyways. Nope. Then the wizard got XP for a CR 20 encounter. Also, how on earth does he run away from the Wizard and the gated monster while inside his AMF?
CryoSilver 12-19-07, 04:46 PM	Drop the field + quickened Dimension Door, possibly imbued in his boots.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-19-07, 04:55 PM	Drop the field + quickened Dimension Door, possibly imbued in his boots. Well played sir. It would save him for a whole day. Unless you have another magic item(instead of you know, a class feature) to prevent scrying?
Cifer 12-19-07, 05:26 PM	quickened Dimension Door, possibly imbued in his boots. Another custom item? One that works only when there is a place within spell range that can't be seen by the wizard, by the way?
CryoSilver 12-19-07, 05:31 PM	Well, presumably "arena" isn't the same as "desolate wasteland" so the fighter could just teleport laterally to maximum range and probably be out of sight. It only needs to be quickened if the AMF can't be dropped as a move or swift action. Cape of the Mountebank allows Dimension Door, as well but putting it in the boots instead clears a slot for a Claokof Resisatnce. There's plenty of items to prevent scrying; that amulet in the DMG is one though it would need a higher caster level.
dawnbringer 12-19-07, 06:22 PM	Ring of mental fortitude, the one I put down, prevents scrying, and more. Unless ive read it wrong. If I have read it wrong, then replace it with the one in the DMG. Scrying is easily prevented by magic items. At high levels really a wizard can't scry a fighter if the fighter plays smart and gets the right item. Also, foresight is, ya kno, 9th level. And persistant spell raises the spells slot by, ya kno, 6 levels. Correct me if im wrong, but there isnt an item that lets you apply persistant spell to a 9th level spell. A question to Cryosilver, since I don't have time to check it up. Does ring of counterspells with celerity cast in it stop a contingent celerity? Regarding my stealth. You "can't see me coming" because you can't scry on me (I didn't mean things like turn invisible or hide). And just because I can't travel fast on my own, doesn't mean I can't hitch a ride. Again, since I don't have time to check, how big is a solar and how long does it take to gate in?
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 12-19-07, 06:30 PM	Thread topic: Fighters vs Other Melee Who changed this into fighter vs wizard? And why are people still derailing the thread? Oh and ummm fighter < warblade. Yeah, see... This post is helpfulish. :D Edit - Before you run around bragging about how uber cool celerity is, a bard's diplomacy check convinces your leet-uber-sweet-wizard-that-you-refuse-to-stat-out-knowing-that-if-you-did-a-gap-would-be-found-and-he-would-die to hand the bard his spell book, only to find out due to a gap in sleight of hand's rule, it was already pick pocketed out of his backpack by a level one commener. Then the Druid shows up and kick's every's rear, and then falls dead to the might of a DMM enhanced cleric who was passing by and had the urge to sneeze out his last meal, which was a 32 headed paragon terrasqua. And yes, the cleric is enslaved by a psion. Because nothing beats psionics.
Cifer 12-19-07, 07:31 PM	A question to Cryosilver, since I don't have time to check it up. Does ring of counterspells with celerity cast in it stop a contingent celerity? Instead, should that spell ever be cast upon the wearer, the spell is immediately countered, as a counterspell action, requiring no action (or even knowledge) on the wearer’s part. Where's ring of mental fortitude from? Again, since I don't have time to check, how big is a solar and how long does it take to gate in? A solar is large and comes in within a single standard action. And just because I can't travel fast on my own, doesn't mean I can't hitch a ride. So by now you let someone else (a wizard maybe?) scry on your opponent to find its location and hitch a ride (possibly from a wizard?) to get there. Please tell me again why you're arguing the fighter can beat the wiz. And before you come upon the clever idea to call out the solar as a similar action: Spellcasting and thus the spell Gate are abilities of wizards. @Lost Oh. Right. Fighter and other melee... Well, I consider a warblade (and the other two ToB classes) to be more fun. Whether they're stronger is debateable (I believe Tempest Stormwind did an analysis on the damage potential of a barbarian vs. a warblade and both came out as about equal), but "I counter your Charm Person with a Moment of the Perfect Mind, which I follow up with a Ruby Nightmare Blade!" sounds so much cooler than "I full attack..."
AngryJake 12-20-07, 12:47 AM	Fighter charges wizard, activating his Pouncing Charge Maneuver, while simultaneously activating his Antimagic Torque(Swift action I beleive), Two hits with the fighters greatclub forces saving throw vs. Nausea thanks to his Three mountains style, the fighter beats the wizard about the head and face until he dies.
Cold Napalm 12-20-07, 01:21 AM	Fighter charges wizard, activating his Pouncing Charge Maneuver, while simultaneously activating his Antimagic Torque(Swift action I beleive), Two hits with the fighters greatclub forces saving throw vs. Nausea thanks to his Three mountains style, the fighter beats the wizard about the head and face until he dies. I never knew fighters got manuvers(...yet...)... where have I been...
AngryJake 12-20-07, 01:33 AM	A fighter can gain access to Maneuvers through feats.
Count Arioch the 28th 12-20-07, 01:37 AM	Weapon Supremacy is ok, but I would not personally be willing to wade through 18 levels of crap to get to two levels of decency. It's not 18 levels of crap! 10 of those levels give you fighter bonus feats! The levels in between are pretty crappy though, so crappy that I wouldn't recommend taking fighter to 18 either. Here's the real solution. If you want to be a melee class, pick and choose from all the combat classes. All of them are pretty front-loaded, so taking a couple levels of several classes will be better than taking one all the way up. Unless of course if your DM allows martial adept classes, you should probably multiclass sparingly when you play those.
Cold Napalm 12-20-07, 01:47 AM	A fighter can gain access to Maneuvers through feats. At level 18...after 3 feats invested...to be able to use it once per encounter... I suppose if your going fighter 20, you really don't have much else to spend feats on...but I generally like weapon supremecy at level 18.
AngryJake 12-20-07, 02:08 AM	You receive 2 feats at level 18, you can still get supremacy.
Cold Napalm 12-20-07, 02:18 AM	You receive 2 feats at level 18, you can still get supremacy. Or a tactical feat that I can't use fighter feats to get...or some of the various other general feats. Yeah yeah, if I'm going fighter 20 I use up a lot of feats so I can do a lot of things. I have actually ran out of feat going fighter 20 before...it worried my friends.
AngryJake 12-20-07, 03:08 AM	I don't think I've ever taken more than one tactical feat, usually the prereqs are to disparate.
dawnbringer 12-20-07, 06:27 AM	Where's ring of mental fortitude from? DMG II By hitching a ride I could mean a number of things such as a planar sailer or a gate zepplin or even ask someone to let me ride along with their Ur'Epona. If I knew where you lived already then I wouldn't need help finding you. But if I didn't it would take some asking and if that failed, then paying for a scry. (Or, alternatively, use the planar compass thats been damn eluding me). Sure, i'm using other people to get to you, whether they be commoners, experts or a wizard (Or compass), but once I get there its all me. Theres even some kind of planar compass that I can buy that points me in the right direction of something when im on a plane (so all I have to say is "Point me towards Cifers Home"), but I can't remember what book it's in. I would have put it on my character otherwise.
Grumman 12-20-07, 06:41 AM	Theres even some kind of planar compass that I can buy that points me in the right direction of something when im on a plane (so all I have to say is "Point me towards Cifers Home"), but I can't remember what book it's in. I would have put it on my character otherwise. It has the same chance of failure as a Teleport spell, so unless you have seen it, congratulations, you just bought yourself a 100% chance of finding the wrong place.
Kimokeo 12-21-07, 07:45 PM	I suggest taking the 20th level fighter vs. anyone and taking them to an island. In the center of the island is the arena, a mile-diameter circle. In that arena, near the edge closest to the fighter's entry is the Fighter's flag and on the other edge is his opponent's flag. Once you have taken your flag, you are free to attack your opponent. Until then, it's a race to the flag. Through the terrain you work you way to the first goal. After attaining the flag, it's time for the fight. But, the fight doesn't have to be in the arena. The island is the fighting arena. The winner is obvious. The loser is based on how little they were able to attack their opponent. Either could surprise the other. Either could spot and hear the other. Either could win initiative. The point of this setup is to give each character a fighting chance. At 20th level, any character should be able to fly or teleport so attaining the flag isn't usually the problem. It's the HUNT.
Cold Napalm 12-21-07, 08:14 PM	I suggest taking the 20th level fighter vs. anyone and taking them to an island. In the center of the island is the arena, a mile-diameter circle. In that arena, near the edge closest to the fighter's entry is the Fighter's flag and on the other edge is his opponent's flag. Once you have taken your flag, you are free to attack your opponent. Until then, it's a race to the flag. Through the terrain you work you way to the first goal. After attaining the flag, it's time for the fight. But, the fight doesn't have to be in the arena. The island is the fighting arena. The winner is obvious. The loser is based on how little they were able to attack their opponent. Either could surprise the other. Either could spot and hear the other. Either could win initiative. The point of this setup is to give each character a fighting chance. At 20th level, any character should be able to fly or teleport so attaining the flag isn't usually the problem. It's the HUNT. Ohhhh...I LOVE this arena set up. I need to use this in my next game...
FrostHammer 12-21-07, 11:48 PM	We don't allow Contingency, Celerity, or Foresight in our games. Without these spells, Wizards are still monsters. But at least you can take them down if you seriously buff your initiative. Take Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical protection, Pierce Magical Concealment, and have an item of Mind Blank, or have your Wizard Cohort cast it on you. Or pay someone to cast it on you. Or get a scroll of it and cast it on yourself. Be a Raptoran so you can fly without magic, and then use standard charging tactics to finish off the wizard. Best chance you've got. Remember, items are part of the game. If Fighters without items just DIE. Fighters with access to magic are ok if played by an experienced player. More skillpoints and a bigger skill list wouldn't hurt though.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 12-23-07, 03:44 AM	Take Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical protection, Pierce Magical Concealment, and have an item of Mind Blank, or have your Wizard Cohort cast it on you. Or pay someone to cast it on you. Or get a scroll of it and cast it on yourself. Be a Raptoran so you can fly without magic, and then use standard charging tactics to finish off the wizard. Best chance you've got. I've found high saves, mettle, evasion, steal spell, and the ability to go ethereal are helpful. Planar Champion would be useful, 3/day ethereal jaunt and still be able to swing and hit people without miss chances giving it a huge edge over other meleers without a ghost touch weapon. Add spring attack in and flank stuff to death while hiding within walls too. Not to mention a 50% miss chance vs magic and 100% miss vs mundane stuff. And its fighter only, gives a little bit of an edge back to the poor fighters (and warblades!)... More skillpoints and a bigger skill list wouldn't hurt though.Warblade! lol.
pigknight 12-24-07, 04:20 PM	Human Fighter 6/Paladin /Rogue 10, Keep Fighter/Paladin levels equal till level 18 where the last 2 levels should be Fighter, also keep all the classes about the same till level 12-17 where there are the rogue levels till 18 (you will have no xp penalty).
Cifer 12-24-07, 05:25 PM	@Pigknight What does this build accomplish, why does it accomplish what it's trying to accomplish and how do you get around the "no coming back after multiclassing" problem of the Pal?
Khallhadras 12-24-07, 05:53 PM	:rolleyes: There's one HUGE advantage to the Fighter that no one has brought up yet: IT'S SIMPLE! The fighter is one of the EASIEST classes to play, not because of its power, but because it's a very simple task to design a decent one and play it for twenty levels or more. I know this, because I have done so several times. I like fighters, because once your feats and minimal skill points are sorted out, you can focus on what's really FUN about D&D: roleplaying and battle tactics. But that's just me. I find that designing a "build" is a chore, and updating character sheets is a pain, so my view might not apply to everyone. In the hands of an over-optimizer, the fighter is made of dynamite. It's not made of cheese, like the barbarian/frenzied berserker, or of C4, like the ToB classes, but it can still be damned effective. In the hands of a real novice, the fighter is possibly the best core-only class to play. As I said, it's easy to make one, and you don't have to keep track of a complicated chain of spells, special abilities, and feats unless you really want to. If your fighter stays well-armed for his whole career, he'll kick arse for his old career. Out of everyone debating on this blog you have been the only one to state that. I feel the exact same way about fighters and have done so myself as well. I would give you a cookie, but it seems I am out. ;) As far as simple classes go fighters 'are' the most easiest to build, but they are not limited to just new players. A fighter, unlike many of the other classes, is suited for all levels and degrees of gameplay. Their weaknesses are as mentioned however: Low skill points and at times 'over-specialization'. Of course this is also why you want a rogue, ranger, etc. in you're party. This doesn't rule out an all fighter party though...with the damage a group of five fighters could do in one round the foe wouldn't stand a chance, let alone have half as much time needed to inflict minimal wounds to even one of the said fighters. To sum it up...fighters are the catch-all of DND, and no matter what anyone says they are compatible for both new and old players. EDIT: Sorry about that people, I didn't realize I was quoting from the first page. Bit of a long night. :rolleyes:
Sunic_Flames 12-24-07, 07:45 PM	And that just proves your silly. You have either, A, Never played a fighter B, Can't play a fighter effectively C, have access to nothing other than core books, or D, Your a noob. In any case, the fighter is better than the bard. In core, the fighters not so good, but isn't the utter crap you speak of. Outside core, fighter is one of the best classes in the game, provided you use him right and pick the right feats. As i'm sure you've noticed, the majority of people in this thread have posted that the fighter is very good, but is not for newbies. So, i believe my origional statement about you stands true. How can I put this politely? ... ... ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VwbkbkTvBc&feature=related What people have said in these threads is they can be made to work, if you have a significant grasp on optimization, lots of books, and so forth. In other words, massive amounts of effort just to be viable. Not overpowered, simply viable. Moreover, the fighter's only class feature is feats, which due to the shortchanging of martial feats means he needs 3-4 to be decent at one trick. Not good, not awesome, merely decent. So Mr. Fighter has about... 5 tricks up his sleeve. And that's it. To put this into perspective, given enough time and effort I could make a go cart a viable commuting vehicle. Or... I can just use a car, which performs this function out of the box and doesn't give less for more. It's called using the right tool for the job, instead of trying to force a square peg into a round hole. The bard part was half serious humor. It flew over everyone's heads. Especially yours. I do find it funny said bard ends up with a better AB and can take the same damage combo as everyone else (PA > LA > ST). I will pretend I didn't hear the rest of the insults (especially the Toughness and Basketweaving ones). Fighter as the best class in the game? You remind me of someone I know. He is addicted to a certain white powdery substance, as well as other illegal drugs. Difference is, he has an excuse for being such a zealot towards such a blatantly wrong position. What's yours? Best class in game (core only, or everything under the sun): Druid. Next up is Clerics, Artificers that know what they're doing, and the other full casters. Even if they want to melee. Gishes for the win.
Cifer 12-24-07, 07:56 PM	How can I put this politely? Not the way you did. As far as simple classes go fighters 'are' the most easiest to build, but they are not limited to just new players. I disagree. Fighters, like sorcerers, can easily be botched, exactly because they get nothing beside feats. If a barbarian chooses a stupid feat, well, he's still got Rage to fall back on and deal massive damage with. If a rogue catches a bad case of Skill Focus basketweaving, he'll still be able to Sneak Attack and disarm traps. Things that are reliable and can't be botched by bad choices. The fighter is the most customizable, but also the most easily botched core melee class because except for a D10, full BAB and a good fort save you get no class features apart from those you choose.
CryoSilver 12-24-07, 10:05 PM	As far as simple classes go fighters 'are' the most easiest to build, but they are not limited to just new players. A fighter, unlike many of the other classes, is suited for all levels and degrees of gameplay. That's wrong. Just so very, very wrong. If you don't know how to build a fighter, your fighter is going to suck. Simple does not equal easy, and feat selection is a delicate and exacting process. Fighter is the most DECEPTIVE class because you see the table with only one class feature and you think "easy," but what you don't realize is that a fighter is a blank sheet where you have to PICK your eleven class features, and you need to pick them right. Barbarian is a good starter class, because you only need to pick your regular feats, and some of them are already no-brainers (Power Attack, Leap Attack)
FrostHammer 12-25-07, 03:46 AM	I think Crusader is a pretty beginniner class as well.
Alpha_Moose 12-25-07, 05:11 PM	I think Crusader is a pretty beginniner class as well. Crusader="actually able to tank without annoying taunt mechanisms". Plus beginniner isn't a 'real' word, though I want to use it now.
Bopple 12-25-07, 07:29 PM	I agree it's not that easy to play a fighter, but... If a barbarian can have Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper as no brainer, then it should be no problem for a fighter, either. And if one had a fine mind to cherry-pick those most important feats, I seriously doubt he would screw up his decisions on other feats.
Cifer 12-25-07, 09:11 PM	If a barbarian can have Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper as no brainer, then it should be no problem for a fighter, either. That's not the point. Assuming one doesn't choose a good combination of feats for both characters, the barbarian will still be better off.
Allarian 12-25-07, 11:14 PM	DMG II By hitching a ride I could mean a number of things such as a planar sailer or a gate zepplin or even ask someone to let me ride along with their Ur'Epona. If I knew where you lived already then I wouldn't need help finding you. But if I didn't it would take some asking and if that failed, then paying for a scry. (Or, alternatively, use the planar compass thats been damn eluding me). Sure, i'm using other people to get to you, whether they be commoners, experts or a wizard (Or compass), but once I get there its all me. Theres even some kind of planar compass that I can buy that points me in the right direction of something when im on a plane (so all I have to say is "Point me towards Cifers Home"), but I can't remember what book it's in. I would have put it on my character otherwise. So as the hypothetical wizard I hire a couple of towns or so to steal all of your stuff, then I come and kill you. But once I get there its all me. Note that I don't need to do this, I can just MDJ you before I leave. Hell with the build you have posted all I need to win the fight is the phantom steed spell. You have no means of flight and no ranged weapon.
Bopple 12-25-07, 11:23 PM	That's not the point. Assuming one doesn't choose a good combination of feats for both characters, the barbarian will still be better off. That is not really relevant to my post, because I was talking about the difficulty level of building characters. Furthermore, it wouldn't have made much difference, if it had been about the difference of power. I certainly agree a barbarian with wrong feats is better than a fighter with wrong feats. However, it's no big deal because such melee classes are so screwed up anyway, if they choose wrong feats, be it barbarian or fighter. Being slightly better than a so-screwed-up fighter does not make a so-screwed-up barbarian any meaningfully happier.
CryoSilver 12-26-07, 04:17 AM	A barbarian only gives you seven (eight if you're human) chances to screw up. A fighter gives you eighteen (nineteen) chances to screw up. Every single thing you gain as a fighter must be hand-picked, like spells. A fighter with bad feats is as ineffectual as a sorcerer with bad spells, possibly worse. At least a barbarian with bad feats is only out part of his power (he still has rage, more skill points, more hp, uncanny dodge, etc), while a fighter with bad feats sucks in every way.
Bopple 12-26-07, 04:35 AM	A barbarian only gives you seven (eight if you're human) chances to screw up. A fighter gives you eighteen (nineteen) chances to screw up. Every single thing you gain as a fighter must be hand-picked, like spells. A fighter with bad feats is as ineffectual as a sorcerer with bad spells, possibly worse. Back to the point zero. If a barbarian is entitled to certain good feats, it's no big deal for fighter, even though he had more feats. To put it differently; If one were not up to build a marginally effective fighter, he wouldn't be able to build a decent barbarian either. At least a barbarian with bad feats is only out part of his power (he still has rage, more skill points, more hp, uncanny dodge, etc), while a fighter with bad feats sucks in every way. I said I agreed a barbarian with wrong feats are better than a fighter with wrong feats. It's just it's matter of decently fulfilling the intended role, rather than comparing a fighter to a barbarian. A barbarian with wrong feats are only better by a few damage bonus and a couple of skill points than a fighter with wrong feats. Does it make the barbarian a decent melee combatant, just because it's better than the fighter?(while more hp, DR and uncanny dodge are good, they mostly cancel out with worse AC, anyway). Furthermore, while it's possible to screw up your build so as to fail to benefit from synergies or to make full use of feat choices, it's impossible to make it totally worthless. To be totally worthless, you have to choose TWF while using greatsword, and ect. But virtually none would do that kind of things, anyway.
CryoSilver 12-26-07, 04:46 AM	A barbarian with a decent Dex score is not substantially worse off than a fighter in terms of AC; characters tend to buy armor that matches their Dex bonus, in my experience. A fighter's feats are his ONLY class feature. A barbarian has many, and feats are an incidental bonus. Power Attack is the only "must have" for a barbarian. Similarly, the martial adept classes are seen as better because it is hard to build a crappy warblade/crusader/swordsage. It is very easy to build a crappy fighter. Without retraining rules from PHB2, if you make a bad feat choice, or plan badly, you are stuck with that for the rest of your career as a fighter. What you said about good feats being available for the barbarian carries weight only insofar as the barbarian only gets 8 feats; he only needs to consider filling those eight feat slots, and some of those feats may be used to enhance his raging, which fighters can't do. What about the other 11 feats that a fighter gets? That's another 11 chances to screw things up. A barbarian or martial adept is like a prefabricated house; there's some room for customization, but even if you have terrible taste in interior decoration and the aesthetics of a dead cat, your house will still stand after you're done. A fighter is more like a big pile of lumber and a box of nails. If you're a skilled carpenter, you can build a masterpiece that will outshine the prefabricated house, but if you're just a regular guy, you're going to end up with a shoddily-made shack instead of a house.
Bopple 12-26-07, 06:18 AM	A barbarian with a decent Dex score is not substantially worse off than a fighter in terms of AC; characters tend to buy armor that matches their Dex bonus, in my experience. Not really. The priority list for a typical melee combatant would be Str>Con>Dex. As such, it's mostly like 15-16 Str, 14 Con, 13 Dex(13 Int for certain fighter builds), and whatever next 12. This priority goes as the same for buying stat item, too. Therefore, up until around 13-15 lvl, it's far from easy to catch up with AC. It's usually 3-5(7 at most, 2 at least) AC point behind while raging. That means roughly 15-25%(35% at most, 10% at least) more damage you take. And that is why I said those good defensive features 'mostly' cancel out with worse AC. A fighter's feats are his ONLY class feature. A barbarian has many, and feats are an incidental bonus. Power Attack is the only "must have" for a barbarian. Similarly, the martial adept classes are seen as better because it is hard to build a crappy warblade/crusader/swordsage. It is very easy to build a crappy fighter. Without retraining rules from PHB2, if you make a bad feat choice, or plan badly, you are stuck with that for the rest of your career as a fighter. Again, it's the same. If a barbarian is entitled to Power Attack, so is a fighter. And if one is prudent enough to take Power Attack, it's very hard for him to totally screw it up like choosing archery feats while wielding a greatsword. Moreover, we all know that the other members of the group always can and will prevent him from making idiotic decisions. What you said about good feats being available for the barbarian carries weight only insofar as the barbarian only gets 8 feats; he only needs to consider filling those eight feat slots, and some of those feats may be used to enhance his raging, which fighters can't do. What about the other 11 feats that a fighter gets? That's another 11 chances to screw things up. Well, it's not that simple. Statistically, it can be said that a fighter has much better chance to incidentally choose very, very good feats. Would you play a barbarian with 8 so-so feats over a fighter with several very powerful feats like Leap Attack, Shock Trooper and sucky feats like Dodge and Great Cleave? A barbarian or martial adept is like a prefabricated house; there's some room for customization, but even if you have terrible taste in interior decoration and the aesthetics of a dead cat, your house will still stand after you're done. I agree on martial classes. But a barbarian with weak feats is only slightly better than a fighter with weak feats. A few more damage and Listen just does not cut it. And even suboptimal feats do their jobs and give the fighter some boosts - like +2 to Fort save, +1 to dodge AC, +1 to shield AC, and ect, unless the melee fighter chooses so stupid feats like Weapon Focus(longbow). A fighter is more like a big pile of lumber and a box of nails. If you're a skilled carpenter, you can build a masterpiece that will outshine the prefabricated house, but if you're just a regular guy, you're going to end up with a shoddily-made shack instead of a house. I essentially agree to this. What I am trying to say is, if we discuss it on the level of choosing some staple feats for barbarian(which you did in your previous post), it's not a big issue for a fighter anymore, either.
dawnbringer 12-26-07, 06:58 AM	So as the hypothetical wizard I hire a couple of towns or so to steal all of your stuff, then I come and kill you. But once I get there its all me. Note that I don't need to do this, I can just MDJ you before I leave. Hell with the build you have posted all I need to win the fight is the phantom steed spell. You have no means of flight and no ranged weapon. I just thought I'd say LOL. And that my build does indeed have means of flight via winged boots. And it was a quick build with basic stuff. I didn't spend time putting everything the character would have in there (such as a ranged weapon). Hitching a ride on a vehicle does not constitute as cheating. And sure, you can try and hire some people to steal my stuff, but assuming its a town like waterdeep where everyone is good, they'll say no, or they can try and just let them see if they succeed. Plus your MDJ theory wont work, as I have a reflecting shield, and I would simply reflect it onto you and destroy your own items.
Sunic_Flames 12-26-07, 08:52 AM	Not really. The priority list for a typical melee combatant would be Str>Con>Dex. As such, it's mostly like 15-16 Str, 14 Con, 13 Dex(13 Int for certain fighter builds), and whatever next 12. This priority goes as the same for buying stat item, too. Therefore, up until around 13-15 lvl, it's far from easy to catch up with AC. It's usually 3-4 AC point behind while raging. That means roughly 15-20% more damage you take(10%:-2AC at the very least). And that is why I said those good defensive features 'mostly' cancel out with worse AC. So you're making a martial class in 25-28 PB? Sounds like asking to fail to me. See also: 8 14 14 17 8 8 wizard and 8 10 14 12 17 8 druid.
Bopple 12-26-07, 09:04 AM	So you're making a martial class in 25-28 PB? Sounds like asking to fail to me. See also: 8 14 14 17 8 8 wizard and 8 10 14 12 17 8 druid. I am not sure what you are trying to say. What is your point?
Bopple 12-26-07, 09:39 AM	To elaborate; First of all, I did not mean PB only. With standard 4d6 drop lowest, in general, you get 1 high(about 16), 1 mid(about 14) and bunch of 12-13's. With Elite Array, you get 15/14/13/12/10/8. With standard 25 PB, your top 4 would be 16~17/14/12~14/10~12. The third highest(which usually is Dex for melee characters) is 13 on average. And even if it's 14, it boosts AC by 1. Therefore, my assumption of 3~5 AC difference still stands.
Sunic_Flames 12-26-07, 09:47 AM	I am not sure what you are trying to say. What is your point? My point is if you're stuck in a low PB game, you don't play a low power class. That is asking to fail. You play a high power class, because they'll work fine and anything more is just flavor text for them. If you want to play a martial class, you get the DM to make it 32 PB, because that's the minimum for MAD characters like that. Note both stat blocks were 25 PB. As for rolling, it's also a well known fact you should roll before deciding on a character, because saying 'monk' and then getting one high stat, one good stat, and four crap stats or saying 'wizard' and getting a bunch of 13s is simply a bad idea. But that's why you have several ideas in mind and pick one based on what you know will work under these circumstances.
Bopple 12-26-07, 10:00 AM	It's called standard method, and the whole game is built around it. Most of all, what you are saying is irrelevant to barbarian and fighter ability setup. If you want to discuss about the balance among various ability setup systems and to argue which system should be used, feel free to with others. But personally I can hardly see any point in doing that, regarding this subject.
Cold Napalm 12-26-07, 12:40 PM	Plus your MDJ theory wont work, as I have a reflecting shield, and I would simply reflect it onto you and destroy your own items. God, you really didn't think any of this through did you, or even look at my build properly. Sigh..moron. Umm you can't reflect MDJ as it is an area effect spell and not a targeted spell. Reflecting only lets you reflect TARGETED spells. Yeah MDJ sucks.
CryoSilver 12-26-07, 01:27 PM	Again, it's the same. If a barbarian is entitled to Power Attack, so is a fighter. And if one is prudent enough to take Power Attack, it's very hard for him to totally screw it up like choosing archery feats while wielding a greatsword. Moreover, we all know that the other members of the group always can and will prevent him from making idiotic decisions. That's not always true. I've played in many games where the players did their leveling at home, during the week, without outside consultation. Well, it's not that simple. Statistically, it can be said that a fighter has much better chance to incidentally choose very, very good feats. Would you play a barbarian with 8 so-so feats over a fighter with several very powerful feats like Leap Attack, Shock Trooper and sucky feats like Dodge and Great Cleave? Yes, yes I would. I agree on martial classes. But a barbarian with weak feats is only slightly better than a fighter with weak feats. A few more damage and Listen just does not cut it. And even suboptimal feats do their jobs and give the fighter some boosts - like +2 to Fort save, +1 to dodge AC, +1 to shield AC, and ect, unless the melee fighter chooses so stupid feats like Weapon Focus(longbow). And none of those suboptimal feats are even close to the power of a well-tweaked fighter, nor the benefits of raging and damage reduction. A barbarian has 7 or 8 feats to choose, and therefore he only needs to pick the eight best feats for his character, four of which are almost gimmes in many games (Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper). The fighter, on the other hand, has to pick 18 or 19 feats, of which only a few are obvious, depending on which path he chooses. The chances of him picking terrible feats increases greatly because many new players will not know how to synergize feats, or have the patience/memory to reference six or seven books to build the best fighter they can. A barbarian with bad feats does not lose out on raging, which is his main strength. A fighter with bad feats has bad class features, essentially.
dawnbringer 12-26-07, 02:18 PM	Umm you can't reflect MDJ as it is an area effect spell and not a targeted spell. Reflecting only lets you reflect TARGETED spells. Yeah MDJ sucks. aww thats sucky :(. Now, I have a rules question. Since the items recieve a will save, which will probably be yours, and you have an item of mind blank on you, which makes you immune to anything that requires a will save. If said items used your will save, would they also be immune?
Urithair 12-26-07, 02:49 PM	Why does this entire thread seem to rotate around people who have no idea how spells work. For example: "Plus your MDJ theory wont work, as I have a reflecting shield, and I would simply reflect it onto you and destroy your own items." and "an item of mind blank on you, which makes you immune to anything that requires a will save." RTFPH, please
Cold Napalm 12-26-07, 03:04 PM	Mind Blank Abjuration Level: Protection 8, Sor/Wiz 8 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: 24 hours Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all. Tell me where it says mind blank makes you immunes to things that require a will save please. I mean honestly people, if you have no idea how magic works, stay away from discussion that is talking about the power level of magic...yesh. This is almost getting to the wizard vs sorcerer thread with ace who is trying to argue about game balance when he has no idea how half the rules in the game works. Although like that thread, this is kinda hijacking it...but please learn your rules before you post for crying out loud.
Allarian 12-26-07, 04:31 PM	Why does this entire thread seem to rotate around people who have no idea how spells work. For example: "Plus your MDJ theory wont work, as I have a reflecting shield, and I would simply reflect it onto you and destroy your own items." and "an item of mind blank on you, which makes you immune to anything that requires a will save." RTFPH, please Because it is a thread about how "good" a fighter is. Most of the people that are making these arguements don't know much about magic and mages. Dawnbringer: Mind Blank doesn't make you immune to efects that require a will save, it will protect you against divination and mind effecting enchantments. And why are you assuming the town is all good. Anyway a few quick dominates will change the towns attitude around.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 12-26-07, 04:54 PM	Because it is a thread about how "good" a fighter is compaired to other meleers. Most of the people that are making these arguements don't know much about magic and mages, nor are they even on the topic of the thread.Fixed. Granted, a fighter can have 11 ranks in UMD, a high cha score, and UMD boosting items to use scrolls, wands, and other magical items and such. But, that is just not good enough to stand here and run down such roads as "My fighter casts Mind Blank, and reflects your Fighter's MDJ!" Fighter loses to other melee by defualt. Why? Because 'my' fighters invest some of their feats in ranged attacks. I trade out some melee for ranged, thus fall behind what I could be in melee...
Allarian 12-26-07, 06:54 PM	Fixed. Thank you. That said I think that the fighter is one of the least fun of the combat classes.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 12-26-07, 08:01 PM	Yeah, me too. Look at a fighter's choices in battle. Bull Rush, Grapple, Trip, Sunder, Disarm, or run away. Each of those provoke AoOs without the fighter spending feats on them, grapple is worthless at high levels, bull rush is dependent on a cliff or pit being nearby, sunder and disarm don't work on natural weapons and trip sucks against eveythign with more than 2 legs (90% of all nonhumanoids). What's more, all of those choices, everyone has the choice to use them too. What is unigue to the fighter? Weapon Specializion, +2 damage! Woot! So exciting... The fighter class is just plain boring to play. Its as of a generic based meleer role as a bard is a generic eveything role. No strong points, no weak points, only unlike the bard, the fighter lacks flavor or atleast something to seperate it from a high level commenor.
Sunic_Flames 12-27-07, 05:24 PM	It's called standard method, and the whole game is built around it. Most of all, what you are saying is irrelevant to barbarian and fighter ability setup. If you want to discuss about the balance among various ability setup systems and to argue which system should be used, feel free to with others. But personally I can hardly see any point in doing that, regarding this subject. Not relevant you say? Let's see... Barb needs str and con obviously, a bit of dex, and um... O.o Fighter needs all that, + the feats he would take often have another stat requirement, (Combat Expertise 13 Int, required for trippers etc) meaning he has to put points there he would not otherwise put = MAD. Mixing MAD and 25 PB is like mixing ammonia and bleach. Unless you're trying to make yourself sick and die, don't do it. Obviously the casters are the best off, but the Barbarian is still better off than the Fighter. Therefore, conclusion = low PB makes already weak classes weaker. Also, the above poster deserves a :cookie:.
Bopple 12-27-07, 07:52 PM	*Scratch* It would be better if you showed me the precise number before debasing my argument. Of course you need Int 13 for certain fighter builds, and I already mentioned about it in my previous post. Seriously, it usually changes Dex 13/14 to Dex 12. Its AC difference is only 1 at worst(2 in very rare cases). That does not make up for typical barbarian's decreased AC. That's why I made pretty large range of AC differences like "3-5(2 at least, 7 at most)". OK. Let's look into more of it with examples; 25 PB Barbarian: 17/14/14/8/8/8 with mithral breast plate - AC5 while raging Fighter1: 16/14/12/13/8/8 with full plate - AC9 Fighter2: 16/14/10/13/10/8 with full plate - AC8 The AC difference is 3 or 4. 28 PB Barbarian: 18/14/14/8/8/8 with mithral breast plate - AC5 while raging Fighter1: 16/14/14/14/8/8 with full plate - AC10 Fighter2: 16/14/12/14/10/8 with full plate - AC9 The AC difference is 4 or 5. Elite Array Barbarian: 15/14/13/12/10/8 with mithral breast plate - AC4 while raging Fighter: 15/14/12/13/10/8 with full plate - AC9 The AC difference is 5. 4d6 drop lowest Barbarian: 16/14/13/12/12/12 with mithral breast plate - AC4 while raging Fighter: 16/14/12/13/12/12 with full plate - AC9 The AC difference is 5.
Cold Napalm 12-27-07, 10:00 PM	OK. Let's look into more of it with examples; 25 PB Barbarian: 17/14/14/8/8/8 with mithral breast plate - AC5 while raging Fighter1: 16/14/12/13/8/8 with full plate - AC9 Fighter2: 16/14/10/13/10/8 with full plate - AC8 The AC difference is 3 or 4. And the fighter has 2-3 less HP per level...thats not an issue. Also why are we assuming the barbarian uses bad armor? He can use a mithril full plate since it is a medium armor just fine. 28 PB Barbarian: 18/14/14/8/8/8 with mithral breast plate - AC5 while raging Fighter1: 16/14/14/14/8/8 with full plate - AC10 Fighter2: 16/14/12/14/10/8 with full plate - AC9 The AC difference is 4 or 5. Elite Array Barbarian: 15/14/13/12/10/8 with mithral breast plate - AC4 while raging Fighter: 15/14/12/13/10/8 with full plate - AC9 The AC difference is 5. 4d6 drop lowest Barbarian: 16/14/13/12/12/12 with mithral breast plate - AC4 while raging Fighter: 16/14/12/13/12/12 with full plate - AC9 The AC difference is 5. And now we see that the fighters are doing better with better stats...of course you still need to change the barbarian armor to something actually decent so the AC difference is only 2 while raging. The fighter of course can have mithril full plate as well...although in most cases they would do better with an adamantium one. The point was that lower point buy screws fighters more then barbarian and your little spread sheet proves that.
Bopple 12-27-07, 11:30 PM	And the fighter has 2-3 less HP per level...thats not an issue. Hmm? I never argued fighter is better than barbarian. I argued other than Rage, the other defensive abilities of barbarian are not that good and mostly cancelled by worse AC. And as exactly you said, it's no big deal either for barbarian or for fighter. Also why are we assuming the barbarian uses bad armor? Actually, I am favoring barbarian here for future enchanting, because a mithral breast plate is more expensive than a simple full-plate by 2,800gp. Most of all, either mithral or adamantine full-plate are quite expensive and low on priority list until about 13-15th lvl. Until then, most barbarians use breast plate(preferably mithral). And it is not unknown many a barbarian even use chain shirt to save money and make full use of speed bonus. Another factor is treasure. Fighters can use any armor taken as treasure, if it is better than what he is wearing at the moment. Barbarians would shy away from heavy armors. And now we see that the fighters are doing better with better stats... I have never claimed fighters were better with worse stats. Have I? of course you still need to change the barbarian armor to something actually decent so the AC difference is only 2 while raging. The fighter of course can have mithril full plate as well...although in most cases they would do better with an adamantium one. Yeah, around 14lvl, it'd be about -2. But then again, I have never argued it's completely negated by worse AC. The point was that lower point buy screws fighters more then barbarian and your little spread sheet proves that. As I said above, I never argued about that. Furthermore, AFAIK, PB25 is far from popular, anyway. Except for PB25, there is no Dex difference between barbarian and fighter. It's no big deal.
Cold Napalm 12-28-07, 01:59 AM	As I said above, I never argued about that. Furthermore, AFAIK, PB25 is far from popular, anyway. Except for PB25, there is no Dex difference between barbarian and fighter. It's no big deal. I beleive that even living greyhawk uses 28 point buy...but as far as the game goes, 28 is considered a high point value. What it considers standard is actually 22. Yes 22. The point was that a fighter in a standard point buy of 22 is at a disadvantage...which is true. Even you must see that. Once you get to an actual workable 28 point buy, it evens out more. Also as for armor, until level 3, both the fighter and barbarian would most likely be using breastplate. By level 10, they should have either a mithril or adamantium armor of choice. Not level 13ish.
Bopple 12-28-07, 02:59 AM	I beleive that even living greyhawk uses 28 point buy...but as far as the game goes, 28 is considered a high point value. What it considers standard is actually 22. Yes 22. The point was that a fighter in a standard point buy of 22 is at a disadvantage...which is true. Even you must see that. Once you get to an actual workable 28 point buy, it evens out more. Most of all, 4d6 drop lowest is 'the' standard rolling method. People prefer 28PB over 25PB, because most think 25PB is weaker than standard 4d6 drop lowest. And 25PB is called standard point buy. Not 22PB. Read DMG p169. Also as for armor, until level 3, both the fighter and barbarian would most likely be using breastplate. Actually, starting gold for fighter is 150gp, while that of barbarian is 100gp. That can make one point of AC difference, at 1st level. By level 10, they should have either a mithril or adamantium armor of choice. Not level 13ish. +1 mithral full-plate with no special ability is 11,500gp, while total wealth of 10th lvl character is 49,000gp. People prefer a breast plate with special abilities(like Death Ward or Mindarmor), other armor enhancing items(bunch of AC+1 items or augment crystals) or utility items. Seriously, look at +1 breast plate, Ring of Protection +1 and Amulet of Natural Armor +1. It only costs 5,350gp, but gives you AC8, while +1 mithral full-plate gives you AC9 at 11,500gp. And think of your other items - most notoriously your weapon. Typically, your main weapon takes up 1/3~1/2 of your total wealth. You would probably have other items like, cloak(or vest) of resistance +3, Boots of Striding and Springing, Belt(or Gauntlets) of Giant Strength +4, Amulet(or Shirt/Belt) of Constitution +2, and ect. You can't really afford a mithral full-plate at 10th lvl. Perhaps you can at 11th lvl, sacrificing other functionalities much. With a little sacrifice, probably at 12th. Then there is another factor. Most of games evolve around 5-15 lvl. So, 2/3 of times(5-11lvl), it's 4-5 difference. 1/3 of times it's 2.
Cold Napalm 12-28-07, 01:12 PM	Most of all, 4d6 drop lowest is 'the' standard rolling method. People prefer 28PB over 25PB, because most think 25PB is weaker than standard 4d6 drop lowest. And 25PB is called standard point buy. Not 22PB. Read DMG p169. Looking at it now... Low powered 15 challenging 22 Tougher 28 high powered 32 So what the game considered standard point buy is 22. It even says that the living greyhawk is considered harder then normal so uses the 28 point buy. Going by dice roll is pretty useless in this method since you'd have to average it out (which I believe results in all stats at 13). That is why we mention if we are doing our anaylsis based on the elite array or point buy and value. I know that not many use the 22 point buy value and that most people now use 28 because let's face it, anything below 28 just doesn't matter to casters while punishing the melee quite a bit. Especially at 22 points. Also at that value, making a fighter that can use expertise line or TWF line for example kinda becomes impossible. That's all the arguement is saying. At 25 still the difference between a barbarian and a fighter using expertise is pretty clear (and imagine if you needed high dex for TWF line...that's 19 dex you need by level 12...and at least 15 at the start)...or heaven forbid you try for both because you think a smart TWF fighter would be a cool idea. Actually, starting gold for fighter is 150gp, while that of barbarian is 100gp. That can make one point of AC difference, at 1st level. Yeah I'm so use to max gold...but if you use average gold, then yes a fighter...assuming he's using a cheap weapon can afford the chain shirt while the barbarian would have to settle for a studded leather...however with that low of a gold, both would in all likelyhood have to settle for studded leather since a greatsword is 50 gp. The main advantage the fighter would have is that he can afford a short bow(and that is a pretty big deal at level 1) :) . +1 mithral full-plate with no special ability is 11,500gp, while total wealth of 10th lvl character is 49,000gp. People prefer a breast plate with special abilities(like Death Ward or Mindarmor), other armor enhancing items(bunch of AC+1 items or augment crystals) or utility items. Seriously, look at +1 breast plate, Ring of Protection +1 and Amulet of Natural Armor +1. It only costs 5,350gp, but gives you AC8, while +1 mithral full-plate gives you AC9 at 11,500gp. Unless your allowing full trade in value(which requires DM fiat), form an optimizing point of view, it's better to get the armor your planning on keeping for the long run ASAP. Remeber that the ring of prot and amulets can work with the full plate as well. So what would it cost to get a breastplate to +9 ac? Humm...breastplate +4...thats 16200. For +10? Thats 25200 while the fullplate is 14500. Unless you want the extra movement for some reason, it's just a bad idea barring DM fiat. Resource management man...resource management. And think of your other items - most notoriously your weapon. Typically, your main weapon takes up 1/3~1/2 of your total wealth. You would probably have other items like, cloak(or vest) of resistance +3, Boots of Striding and Springing, Belt(or Gauntlets) of Giant Strength +4, Amulet(or Shirt/Belt) of Constitution +2, and ect. You can't really afford a mithral full-plate at 10th lvl. Perhaps you can at 11th lvl, sacrificing other functionalities much. With a little sacrifice, probably at 12th. Then there is another factor. Most of games evolve around 5-15 lvl. So, 2/3 of times(5-11lvl), it's 4-5 difference. 1/3 of times it's 2. Actually the general rule of thumb is that the armor should be 1/4 and your weapon should be 1/4. So the armor is within reason at level 10...assuming good resource management. IF your new and want the biggest shinest pointy stick ASAP...well thats not very optimal play and why are we catering to this again? My last level 10 melee type had a +2 weapon at level 10. Thats 8000 gold. Thats not even 1/5 my wealth by level. So yeah, lets not assume bad resource managment please.
Bopple 12-28-07, 08:22 PM	Low powered 15 challenging 22 Tougher 28 high powered 32 Oh, please. Please read the book. You are quoting nonstandard point buy. Yeah I'm so use to max gold...but if you use average gold, then yes a fighter...assuming he's using a cheap weapon can afford the chain shirt while the barbarian would have to settle for a studded leather...however with that low of a gold, both would in all likelyhood have to settle for studded leather since a greatsword is 50 gp. The main advantage the fighter would have is that he can afford a short bow(and that is a pretty big deal at level 1) :) There is scale mail. Unless your allowing full trade in value(which requires DM fiat), form an optimizing point of view, it's better to get the armor your planning on keeping for the long run ASAP. Remeber that the ring of prot and amulets can work with the full plate as well. So what would it cost to get a breastplate to +9 ac? Humm...breastplate +4...thats 16200. For +10? Thats 25200 while the fullplate is 14500. Unless you want the extra movement for some reason, it's just a bad idea barring DM fiat. Resource management man...resource management. Resource management is actually the point. People generally favor functionalities over a couple of AC points. That is why people buy Death Ward item, Will boosting item, flying item, fire protection item and ect, first. Actually the general rule of thumb is that the armor should be 1/4 and your weapon should be 1/4. Wrong. It's 50%. And it's not even a hard fast rule. It implies that a couple of item can be more expensive than that. 25% is merely suggestion. So the armor is within reason at level 10...assuming good resource management. IF your new and want the biggest shinest pointy stick ASAP...well thats not very optimal play and why are we catering to this again? My last level 10 melee type had a +2 weapon at level 10. Thats 8000 gold. Thats not even 1/5 my wealth by level. So yeah, lets not assume bad resource managment please. Actually, because D&D3 is an offense-oriented game, optimizing for offense is much more efficient than optimizing for defense. What is more, AC and physical damage is less significant, compared to magic and special effects. But you say buying an armor without any special ability but more expensive than a weapon and sacrificing functionalities is a good resource management?
Cold Napalm 12-28-07, 08:31 PM	Resource management is actually the point. People generally favor functionalities over a couple of AC points. That is why people buy Death Ward item, Will boosting item, flying item, fire protection item and ect, first. Wrong. It's 50%. And it's not even a hard fast rule. It implies that a couple of item can be more expensive than that. 25% is merely suggestion. Actually, because D&D3 is an offense-oriented game, optimizing for offense is much more efficient than optimizing for defense. What is more, AC and physical damage is less significant, compared to magic and special effects. But you say buying an armor without any special ability but more expensive than a weapon and sacrificing functionalities is a good resource management? 25% is "merely" suggested for a reason with a very STRONG suggestion to not go above 50%. As for functionality, wel functionality is good. We want deathward armor and such. But for the breastplate to equal the AC of a mithril full plate +1, your gonna spend 6 grand more. 9 for a fullplate +2 eqv. It's about what you want EVENTUALLY. Why spend 5 grand on a mithril breastplate your gonna trade in in a level or 2? Thats 2.5 grand your out due to bad resource management. Unless there is a reason for it (like better movement) I'm not seeing it.
Bopple 12-28-07, 08:41 PM	25% is "merely" suggested for a reason with a very STRONG suggestion to not go above 50%. Yeah, and have I broke 50% very strong suggestion? As for functionality, wel functionality is good. We want deathward armor and such. But for the breastplate to equal the AC of a mithril full plate +1, your gonna spend 6 grand more. 9 for a fullplate +2 eqv. It's about what you want EVENTUALLY. Why spend 5 grand on a mithril breastplate your gonna trade in in a level or 2? Thats 2.5 grand your out due to bad resource management. Unless there is a reason for it (like better movement) I'm not seeing it. Are you arguing that it's better not to use your money at all? You have been using a breast plate from 5th lvl anyway. And up until 12th lvl, are you going to keep your simple breast plate clean and normal? Seriously, in that sense, you have to save all your money until 20th lvl. Or you would never be able to buy anything, if it goes into epic.
Kimokeo 12-28-07, 08:57 PM	It's great to plan out a character (all 20 levels) and figure exactly which items you intend your character to buy. This idea falls into the 'magic shop' mentality. Everything I want will be available and therefore is to be expected. Mithral is rare. Adamantine is also very rare. The question is, does the DM think they are? It's seems unlikely that these are rare when players plan ahead to simply buy them when the time comes. "I'll just buy my mithral armor when the time comes" As a DM, I like when players hope they'll find it - not when they'll buy it.
Pezz 12-28-07, 10:42 PM	Unless your allowing full trade in value(which requires DM fiat), form an optimizing point of view, it's better to get the armor your planning on keeping for the long run ASAP. Remeber that the ring of prot and amulets can work with the full plate as well. So what would it cost to get a breastplate to +9 ac? Humm...breastplate +4...thats 16200. For +10? Thats 25200 while the fullplate is 14500. Unless you want the extra movement for some reason, it's just a bad idea barring DM fiat. Resource management man...resource management. His point was that for 1 less AC, he gets another 5k to spend on other stuff. such as a healing pot, or resistance item. Which is better, 1AC, or 5k worth of survival gear? Of course full plate is going to be a better AC for cheaper than an equivalent AC with a lighter armor. that is why it is called heavy armor. the point was that AC, especially 1 point of AC difference, does not make a huge difference in how much damage you take. 5k worth of survival gear does. yes, the ring of prot and amulets can work with the full plate, but the breastplate with those is a whole 5k cheaper than your full plate. which means for another 2k, you get a gloves of dex. there. same AC, 3k cheaper.
Cold Napalm 12-28-07, 11:17 PM	His point was that for 1 less AC, he gets another 5k to spend on other stuff. such as a healing pot, or resistance item. Which is better, 1AC, or 5k worth of survival gear? Of course full plate is going to be a better AC for cheaper than an equivalent AC with a lighter armor. that is why it is called heavy armor. the point was that AC, especially 1 point of AC difference, does not make a huge difference in how much damage you take. 5k worth of survival gear does. yes, the ring of prot and amulets can work with the full plate, but the breastplate with those is a whole 5k cheaper than your full plate. which means for another 2k, you get a gloves of dex. there. same AC, 3k cheaper. I know that argument, but if you keep improving the breastplate, you start to be out more and more money because by level 14+ you REALLY have to upgrade that sucker unless there is movement issues. So yes until I can afford the actually armor I REALLY want to enchant I'll use a regular breastplate (unless I find better magical armor to use in the meantime). At level 10, is the breast plate a better value? yes. How about level 11? 12? 13? IF you keep with the breastplate you will at higher levels gonna have to replace that with actual high level armor as a tank type. The sooner you do it, with the least invested in the transitional armor, the less resources you waste. Now this is ALL barring DM fiat. If the DM goes you can't buy mithril or adamantium or magic items, then all of this really doesn't matter now does it...but we aren't gonna worry about DM fiat because we can't quantify it so it really doesn't matter. All we care about is standing to the wealth by level.
runestar 12-28-07, 11:46 PM	As a DM, I like when players hope they'll find it - not when they'll buy it. But at the end of the day, all that really matters is that they do get it, regardless of how they get it, is it not? They buy it in my games, loot it from a treasure hoard is yours, craft it in another's, and it simply somehow falls from the sky in a 4th DM's game...what does it matter? :) I do agree that fighter is easier to screw up for beginners (like me). I can speak from personal experience that it is very tempting to get distracted by stinkers such as monkey grip, oversized-TWFing or weapon focus, while ignoring better feats like combat reflexes, power attack (okay, I did take it, but only as a prereq for cleave, so I never used it :embarrass ) or improved trip. The mentality was that I had so many feats, so I felt that I could afford to "waste" a few here and there. Boy was I wrong. You get 6 of your 19 feats within the 1st 4 lvs (and you are expected to have the foundation/basis of your fighter more or less set up). Screw that up, and it will be very difficult to pick yourself up.:( Even though there are very strong fighter builds like chain tripper or jack be quick, they appear to require a very intimate knowledge of how the rules interact to use effectively, and as such, may not be that readily accessible to a majority of the players.