| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| Jackmojo02-07-08, 01:36 PM | So my party and I had our first (fairly unsuccessful) fight with an enemy using this spell, (A BoVD utilizing high level wizard, CL20 (but he has two racial HD and +1LA, so I am unsure of his actual level). For those unfamiliar, its essentially greater invisibility but lasts ten times as long and most importantly, cannot be pierced by most anti-invisibility options (it beats blindsight and Faerie Fire as examples) excluding True Seeing. Although the party is capable of casting this (in fact four of the five characters can), its that with the limited range of true seeing (120ft) we were easily being out maneuvered and blasted with long and medium range spells by our flying adversary. We eventually located him with a fairly dispersed search pattern but he teleported away before we could deal with him. Beyond using a rod of Metamagic: Enlarge to double the range of True Seeing, does anyone else have any suggestions on how to deal with a threat of this sort? Jack |
| Sinfire Titan02-07-08, 01:56 PM | One of the best ways of dealing with it is Glitterdusting a large area with multiple castings. It won't make him easier to find, but it will blind him for the duration of it, and give you a safety zone for a short time. During this time, find him with True Seeing. Arcane Sight will also help you guys find him. Walls of force around you will make him hit you with another spell to get to you guys. |
| Zombie_Babies02-07-08, 02:01 PM | One of the best ways of dealing with it is Glitterdusting a large area with multiple castings. It won't make him easier to find, but it will blind him for the duration of it, and give you a safety zone for a short time. During this time, find him with True Seeing. Arcane Sight will also help you guys find him. Walls of force around you will make him hit you with another spell to get to you guys. Actually, Glitterdust will make him 100% visible: A cloud of golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area, causing creatures to become blinded and visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades. Any creature covered by the dust takes a -40 penalty on Hide checks. As it is a 2nd level spell, however, the blindness will probably not happen. For other options, try casting area control stuff. Cloud spells and the like will limit the area the baddy can be in so you can target your Glitterdust a little easier. Also try area dispelling to possibly drop the invis or even the flight. Never a bad plan. Btw, Glitterdust is one of my favorite spells and always finds a use in the games I play. Just a very good spell all around. |
| rimble02-07-08, 02:04 PM | Actually, Glitterdust will make him 100% visible: Invisibility, Superior specifically mentions that Glitterdust won't work. As it is a 2nd level spell, however, the blindness will probably not happen. Heighten it. Though it's a Will save, so still might be difficult. For other options, try casting area control stuff. Cloud spells and the like will limit the area the baddy can be in so you can target your Glitterdust a little easier. Also try area dispelling to possibly drop the invis or even the flight. Never a bad plan. I agree, I can't come up with anything better than 'spray and pray', but chances are good that Superior Invis is his highest level buff. After he shows up make sure you lock him down with a Dimensional Anchor. The spell mentions that normal environmental clues are still left...footprints in snow is the given example. Maybe if you can make it rain in a very large area, or create some other sort of environmental effect, then you might be able to pinpoint his location. Can you summon anything that has True Seeing to aid in the search, like an Avoral (Summon Monster VII)? Btw, Glitterdust is one of my favorite spells and always finds a use in the games I play. Just a very good spell all around. 100% agree. |
| Zombie_Babies02-07-08, 02:29 PM | Invisibility, Superior specifically mentions that Glitterdust won't work. D'oh! Thanks for bringing that up. I completely forgot how good Superior Invis was. And nothing I hate more that giving innacurate advice... |
| Jackmojo02-07-08, 02:43 PM | D'oh! Thanks for bringing that up. I completely forgot how good Superior Invis was. And nothing I hate more that giving innacurate advice... Yeah it prety much specifically excludes any spell from the PHB except True Seeing as being useful against it. Our DM is willing to take a look at non-core spells on a case by case basis for beating it though (he allowed Zone of Revelation to work for example). Spray and Pray is not so good when the enemy is flying and using spells of long range, as the possible area he could be in is large, we're lucky that our DM allowed us spot checks to identify the origin of some of the spells he was casting as it was (rays and others with a point of origination). Clearly if our next fight from him is indoors or otherwise limited space we'll have less trouble, but when your house gets ambushed you don't get to pick and choose :) Any other ideas? Jack |
| Zombie_Babies02-07-08, 02:55 PM | Sure. If he's close enough and you can cast 9th level spells, use good ol' Disjunction. That'll do the trick. Of course he may make the save. And you may lose some cool stuff after you win. But, if he's got you po'd enough, smash him with it. |
| zioth02-07-08, 03:05 PM | Take cover, so he can't get a line of sight to you from above. Then cast long-lasting area of effect spells to limit where he can be: Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Swarm, Silence, Darkness. You can further limit his line of sight with walls of iron, stone or flame, and obscuring spells (solid fog, obscuring mist, etc). Some of these will only hurt you if he has blindsight though. If you have access to really high-level spells, try Locate Person or Locate Object (for something you know he has) and Disjunction. Limited Wish might help too. Also try things that might improve your spot checks, or the number of times you get spot checks. The former includes things like Owl's Wisdom or magic items, and the later can include all sorts of things. For example, if you can make him bleed, you might be able to spot drops of blood as they become visible. Oh, and when you do locate him with a spot check, cast Greater Dispel -- area effect, if you have to. Getting rid of his invisibility, flight or both would be great. |
| Father Dale02-07-08, 03:13 PM | Use bags of flour. Lots of them. |
| rimble02-07-08, 03:16 PM | Any other ideas? Uhm...Hide? Scatter a bunch of Fog Clouds around and Dim Door/Teleport between them. Sort of a shell game. His Long range spells are no good if there's no decent target. Wait out the Superior Invis, or at least make him waste resources refreshing it. While he doesn't know where you are, go Ethereal to find him. His True Seeing can work to see you, but he has to actually choose to do that. Make sure he doesn't see you or be able to Spellcraft that you're going Ethereal. Depending on the environment, toss up a Dispel Screen or two and run, luring him through them. Hallow your house and tie Dispel Magic (Greater if your DM allows it) to it. At least it'll catch him if he gets too close. It's a dilly of a pickle... |
| Jackmojo02-07-08, 03:34 PM | Sure. If he's close enough and you can cast 9th level spells, use good ol' Disjunction. That'll do the trick. Of course he may make the save. And you may lose some cool stuff after you win. But, if he's got you po'd enough, smash him with it. Don't have it yet, the party only hit 17th level after our encounter with him and unfortunately our wizard is a Cerebramancer so lags on high level spells (unless there is a psionic version our Psion(telepath) could get he's single classed). Take cover, so he can't get a line of sight to you from above. Then cast long-lasting area of effect spells to limit where he can be: Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Swarm, Silence, Darkness. You can further limit his line of sight with walls of iron, stone or flame, and obscuring spells (solid fog, obscuring mist, etc). Some of these will only hurt you if he has blindsight though. Yeah taking cover is what we ended up doing for all intents and purposes, then regrouped and took to the sky to engage him. If you have access to really high-level spells, try Locate Person or Locate Object (for something you know he has) and Disjunction. Limited Wish might help too. Blocked by his Mindblank, apologies I should have mentioned that in the OP. Also try things that might improve your spot checks, or the number of times you get spot checks. The former includes things like Owl's Wisdom or magic items, and the later can include all sorts of things. For example, if you can make him bleed, you might be able to spot drops of blood as they become visible. We have two decent spotters, who were the ones who located him (or his general area), but your point is valid. Distance of course makes the checks hard fast. Oh, and when you do locate him with a spot check, cast Greater Dispel -- area effect, if you have to. Getting rid of his invisibility, flight or both would be great. No argument, our cleric who actually got a decent shot at him before he fled went for the kill shot with disintegrate instead (not what I would have done but oh well). Thanks for the advice in any case. Hallow your house and tie Dispel Magic (Greater if your DM allows it) to it. At least it'll catch him if he gets too close. It's a dilly of a pickle... Out poor house didn't survive the Meteor Swarm he cast on it (the druid and psion inside did though). More info: Party is: Cleric 5/ several different prestige classes 12(drops one caster level gets neat abilities, biggest being he can spontaneous domain cast and gets bonus caster levels, Spell DCs, stunning and sonic damage on electricity spells) Wizard3/Psion 3/ Cerebremancer X/some prestige class Y total level 17, slightly better then a straight cerebremancer due to homebrew prestige class with near double progression (think ultimate magus, but wizard/psion) Beguiler 15/shadowcraft mage 2 (i think the gnome illusion prc from races of stone). Very limited by enemies mindblank. Psion (telepath) 17, I think he is 17, died recently might still be 16 for one more session. Again heavily stymied by mindblank. Druid 12/PrC 5, home brew PrC again drops two caster levels for some enhancement to wildshape (can wildshape into any sort of elementals gets a bonus to the forms physical attributes). So superior Wildshape but casts at level 15. Not a super optimized party, but we have fun. Jack |
| AnonymousInternets02-07-08, 04:16 PM | Be creative. :P There are ways to kill an invisible creature without seeing him. Random ideas... - Locate object his outfit, or weapon, or anything familiar on him. - Alarm minefield. When an alarm goes off, use a widened entangle, or time stop or whatever halting effect suits you. - Symbol of death minefield. Expensive, but it'll probably do it. :P Good luck. |
| Thubby02-07-08, 05:33 PM | control winds everything. does counterspelling require you be able to see the caster? if not, just wait for a spell/attack and attack back down the line of fire. (you can do it without counterspell, but it hurts more) |
| LordTarmos02-07-08, 05:53 PM | it depends on what classes make up your party, in our party our summoner would probably summon something that has true seeing then have it find him and grapple him, he is where it is fighting, once you locate him glitterdust is good or the magic powder that outlines him can not remenber what it is called (dust of --------) or just plaster the place with aoe spells that are weak against the creature you summoned or called. or true seeing works for spellcasters to locate him but you have to use something like greater dispell his spell to make it so all can see him. better yet go superior invis yourselfto even the odds. |
| LivingShadow02-07-08, 06:09 PM | Note: All invisibility does is grant a +20 bonus to hide. (+40 if you don't move and casting counts as moving) If he's trying to snipe you he gets a -20 penalty to his hide checks. Either way you just have to be able to beat his hide check. |
| Chrono Nexus02-07-08, 07:21 PM | If you can't make him visible, then make everyone blind... take his advantage away. |
| BugHunter02-07-08, 08:39 PM | Use the greater revelation crystal in the MIC that should work. |
| KyoMamoru02-07-08, 09:33 PM | 1) Retreat to cover. 2) Summon a bunch of Tremor Sensing creatures. [Monstrous Spiders have it for 60 feet out.] Tiny ones might be the best bet, since they won't be easy to see. 3) Remember that they have int, and thus know Common. 4) Ready an action for them to tell you when they sense something in range of you. 5) Wait. |
| Merestil Haye02-08-08, 10:16 AM | it depends on what classes make up your party, in our party our summoner would probably summon something that has true seeing then have it find him and grapple him, he is where it is fighting, once you locate him glitterdust is good or the magic powder that outlines him can not remenber what it is called (dust of --------) or just plaster the place with aoe spells that are weak against the creature you summoned or called. or true seeing works for spellcasters to locate him but you have to use something like greater dispell his spell to make it so all can see him. better yet go superior invis yourselfto even the odds.There are only four ways detect someone under the Superior Invisibility spell. Make a Spot check. See their footprints or other effect they leave on the environment. Touch them. True Seeing.All other Core spells and items that allow the perception of invisible creatures do not work against Superior Invisibility. Not Tremorsense, not Dust of Appearance. Nothing, unless it's on that list. As for non-Core spells and items - they work if they're more powerful than True Seeing. |
| Jackmojo02-08-08, 03:19 PM | There are only four ways detect someone under the Superior Invisibility spell. Make a Spot check. See their footprints or other effect they leave on the environment. Touch them. True Seeing.All other Core spells and items that allow the perception of invisible creatures do not work against Superior Invisibility. Not Tremorsense, not Dust of Appearance. Nothing, unless it's on that list. As for non-Core spells and items - they work if they're more powerful than True Seeing. Thanks for the summation Merestil, I should have provided more info in the OP, clearly some of the other respondents are not familiar with the spell in question. Be creative. There are ways to kill an invisible creature without seeing him. Random ideas... - Locate object his outfit, or weapon, or anything familiar on him. - Alarm minefield. When an alarm goes off, use a widened entangle, or time stop or whatever halting effect suits you. - Symbol of death minefield. Expensive, but it'll probably do it. Good luck. All valid ides, hoping for stuff which doesn't require us to pick our battles in advance, the divination idea is unfortunately blocked by mindblank. control winds everything. does counterspelling require you be able to see the caster? if not, just wait for a spell/attack and attack back down the line of fire. (you can do it without counterspell, but it hurts more) I love Control Winds, but wouldn't work in this case, its only a 40ft high cylinder. As to counter spelling without being able to see him I don't think it would work (can't make spellcraft checks, etc...) it depends on what classes make up your party, in our party our summoner would probably summon something that has true seeing then have it find him and grapple him, he is where it is fighting, once you locate him glitterdust is good or the magic powder that outlines him can not remenber what it is called (dust of --------) or just plaster the place with aoe spells that are weak against the creature you summoned or called. or true seeing works for spellcasters to locate him but you have to use something like greater dispell his spell to make it so all can see him. better yet go superior invis yourselfto even the odds. See my post ##### for party makeup. I dunno any summonable critters with permanent true seeing off the top of my head any suggestions? Note: All invisibility does is grant a +20 bonus to hide. (+40 if you don't move and casting counts as moving) If he's trying to snipe you he gets a -20 penalty to his hide checks. Either way you just have to be able to beat his hide check. Indeed, but the DMG says you need to be within 30 ft of an invisible creature to spot it, also does spell casting count as sniping? The druid can regularly hit spot checks in the mid 40's but if it only works within 30ft its hard to get that close. Beyond that of course is again the distances we were being attacked from (long range spells hitting from 200+feet off so another +20 to spot DC. If we fight him in an enclosed space in the future we can likely deal with him fairly easily, its more this sort of tactic I'm worried about. If you can't make him visible, then make everyone blind... take his advantage away. Indeed, we tried this to some degree (the cleric quenched a lot of the torches around the party for example) but since we had such a large are where he could potentially be, cloud and other obscuring type spells didn't really work. Use the greater revelation crystal in the MIC that should work. I'll check on it, but if its based off of any spells in core it won't likely work. Any more ideas? Jack |
| Sinis02-08-08, 03:26 PM | True Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueStrike.htm) + a packet of dust of appearance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#dustofAppearance). Edit: I just saw the part about dust not working. :( Er... How about a Detect Magic scan? :| Seriously, Superior Invisibility is silly. |
| Zombie_Babies02-08-08, 03:29 PM | Another idea: Can you guys cast Superior Invis yourselves? This way it's a little more of a level playing field. |
| Jackmojo02-08-08, 03:30 PM | True Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueStrike.htm) + a packet of dust of appearance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#dustofAppearance). To be honest, I'm not so clear on the effects of Superior Invisibility. Since dust of Appearance calls out Faerie Fire as the base effect it would likely fail (or so I would rule as DM, and so I would expect my own DM to say). Superior Invisibility mentions essentially every Core way of beating invisibility (expect those mentioned above by Merestil) and specifically negates them. Another idea: Can you guys cast Superior Invis yourselves? This way it's a little more of a level playing field. The Beguiler picked it up as his last advanced learning (and if I were a gambling man, I would say thats when the DM picked it to use to since we discussed how cool it was at the gaming table). So its there, but not in unlimited supply, being his highest level spell. The Mage we were fighting did have True Seeing up as well (the Beguiler got a look at him with Greater Arcane sight so we saw his buff spells). So it would have been 120ft range to see each other for all of us. Jack |
| Sinis02-08-08, 03:35 PM | Since dust of Appearance calls out Faerie Fire as the base effect it would likely fail (or so I would rule as DM, and so I would expect my own DM to say). Superior Invisibility mentions essentially every Core way of beating invisibility (expect those mentioned above by Merestil) and specifically negates them. Jack Oh, I know! Ready an action to throw Iron Bands when someone casts a spell nearby (assuming the spell leaves some kind of trail to identify the source, like a Disintegrate ray). Contingency (Cast True Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueStrike.htm) when throwing Iron Bands) + Iron Bands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#ironBandsofBinding) Cast Silence on the Iron Bands beforehand, and the spellcasting victim is all but powerless. |
| Fireclave02-08-08, 03:42 PM | Steadfast Perception (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/steadfastPerception.htm) is a 4th level psywar power that makes you immune to all figments and glamers, including invisibility effects. A power stone of this power and a single rank in UPD could potentially solve your problems. |
| Zombie_Babies02-08-08, 03:44 PM | Oh, I know! Ready an action to throw Iron Bands when someone casts a spell nearby (assuming the spell leaves some kind of trail to identify the source, like a Disintegrate ray). Contingency (Cast True Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueStrike.htm) when throwing Iron Bands) + Iron Bands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#ironBandsofBinding) Cast Silence on the Iron Bands beforehand, and the spellcasting victim is all but powerless. The only thing to keep in mind here is that the Silenced bands need to kept in a bag of holding or something that blocks the spell. True Strike has a verbal component. I'd make as many of you Superior Invis'd and True Sighted as possible. Ready Greater Dispel Magic and wait for him to target you. If he can see you, you can see him. Even if only a couple of you can do this it will help a lot. Cast Fly as well so if he starts to rough up the guys he can see or still can't see him you can move around to find him. 1) Move action. 2) Ready Greater Dispel for if you see the baddy. 3) Win. :D |
| Sinis02-08-08, 03:46 PM | The only thing to keep in mind here is that the Silenced bands need to kept in a bag of holding or something that blocks the spell. True Strike has a verbal component. That's why I've got true strike in the contingency spell (among other reasons). I'm pretty sure that things being cast out of contingency no longer have Verbal/Somatic/Material components (you filled those requirements when you cast Contingency earlier). |
| Zombie_Babies02-08-08, 03:58 PM | That's why I've got true strike in the contingency spell (among other reasons). I'm pretty sure that things being cast out of contingency no longer have Verbal/Somatic/Material components (you filled those requirements when you cast Contingency earlier). Ahh. But throwing it into a bag of holding will save you a spell slot. Not as flashy (or creative) but effective nonetheless. With the added bonus of saving a lil' bit o' punch. :D |
| Sinis02-08-08, 04:00 PM | Ahh. But throwing it into a bag of holding will save you a spell slot. Not as flashy (or creative) but effective nonetheless. With the added bonus of saving a lil' bit o' punch. :D Erm, which, the contingency? If the enemy spellcaster sees someone casting True Strike, you better believe he's going to lie low for the whole one round that it lasts. You have to be ready to throw those Iron Bands at any moment! |
| Jackmojo02-08-08, 04:04 PM | Oh, I know! Ready an action to throw Iron Bands when someone casts a spell nearby (assuming the spell leaves some kind of trail to identify the source, like a Disintegrate ray). Contingency (Cast True Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueStrike.htm) when throwing Iron Bands) + Iron Bands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#ironBandsofBinding) Cast Silence on the Iron Bands beforehand, and the spellcasting victim is all but powerless. Unlikely to exist in our campaign setting unfortunately (Dark Sun...the Iron Bands, not the True Strike), although something equivalent not in Iron might be there, unlikely to be able to find it fast enough, but not a bad idea :) Steadfast Perception is a 4th level psywar power that makes you immune to all figments and glamers, including invisibility effects. A power stone of this power and a single rank in UPD could potentially solve your problems. Wow that's awesome, uber-truesight in a lower level power....le sigh, psionic's kick ass. If the opportunity presents itself we can likely get this though (Dark Sun being Psionics heavy), too bad its psionic warrior only... I'd make as many of you Superior Invis'd and True Sighted as possible. Ready Greater Dispel Magic and wait for him to target you. If he can see you, you can see him. Even if only a couple of you can do this it will help a lot. Cast Fly as well so if he starts to rough up the guys he can see or still can't see him you can move around to find him. 1) Move action. 2) Ready Greater Dispel for if you see the baddy. 3) Win. Yeah, this sort of thing is what I think the Cleric should have done rather then attempting to disintegrate him. Oh well, if he had disintegrated him I'm sure I wouldn't be complaining. :) All good ideas, keep the ball rolling this is a tough defense to pierce! Jack |
| Zombie_Babies02-08-08, 04:09 PM | Erm, which, the contingency? If the enemy spellcaster sees someone casting True Strike, you better believe he's going to lie low for the whole one round that it lasts. You have to be ready to throw those Iron Bands at any moment! Duh! Good point, that. I amend my last statement to fully endorse your plan of action for the use of the bands. Good call. Too bad the OP can't get 'em. That would have been one hella suprise for that baddy. |
| Sinis02-08-08, 07:41 PM | Unlikely to exist in our campaign setting unfortunately (Dark Sun...the Iron Bands, not the True Strike), although something equivalent not in Iron might be there, unlikely to be able to find it fast enough, but not a bad idea :) Well, the plan is adaptable. You could throw a tanglefoot bag instead of the iron bands. You'll still get the silence effect, and you can follow the floating goo (unless it becomes invisible as well). Or, a tanglefoot bag with an additional leaky component, and follow the trail. Or, Acid Arrow (this would forgo the silence, mind you), and follow the trail of injury from acid... Or, Disintegrate, and get it over with. Mostly I think Contingency+True Strike is a good way to break his invisibility trick. Edit: Ugh, range increment on Tanglefoot is teh suck. Duh! Good point, that. I amend my last statement to fully endorse your plan of action for the use of the bands. Good call. Too bad the OP can't get 'em. That would have been one hella suprise for that baddy. :w00t: |
| ToastedAmphibian02-08-08, 07:59 PM | Mabey this is a silly question..... why not just leave? Is their some reason you even need to fight him? Sure he destroyed yoru house, but im sure you can find a new one. If he really wants to kill you, make him follow you to where you were going anyways. Use deeper Darkness on yourself or something. |
| BugHunter02-08-08, 08:23 PM | I'll check on it, but if its based off of any spells in core it won't likely work. Any more ideas? Jack The revelation crystal uses true seeing in the crafting. |
| Jackmojo02-09-08, 04:19 PM | Mabey this is a silly question..... why not just leave? Is their some reason you even need to fight him? Sure he destroyed yoru house, but im sure you can find a new one. If he really wants to kill you, make him follow you to where you were going anyways. Use deeper Darkness on yourself or something. Simple answer: we're the good guys and the city we live in is under attack. Long answer: The city got infiltrated and its defenses got messed up pretty bad, part of that infiltration was this guy's attacks on us. We're likely the only ones who cans top the forces who are sneaking into the city disrupting the defences. The revelation crystal uses true seeing in the crafting. Yeah that would probably work, the trick being needing to hit him the first time. Jack |
| MrCustomer02-09-08, 07:50 PM | Locate Creature will give you a good indication of the direction the wizard is in and which direction he is moving. Then hit the area with AE spells. Control Weather or Control Wind would be a good way to make it so he can't Fly, once he is grounded his manueverability is limited and locating him is easier. Greater Invisibility and fly can even the odds, also split up the party to reduce the effectiveness of AE spells, obscuring mist, Darkness, etc can provide cover for some who aren't help for looking. Iron Wall or other such barriers will limit the directions he can attack from. |
| MrCustomer02-09-08, 08:09 PM | Um, True Strike is just +20 to hit, doesn't do you much good if the person is invisible and 200' away. |
| Nathreet02-09-08, 08:22 PM | Ready action + greater dispel, fireball and other aoe affects around the source of one of his spells could work. Just gotta spot the beams coming out of his finger. |
| Sinis02-09-08, 09:11 PM | Um, True Strike is just +20 to hit, doesn't do you much good if the person is invisible and 200' away. True strike isn't just +20 to hit. From the SRD: You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target. It cuts through the invisibility miss chance, that's the salient point. If you can identify the square he's in, it's all but an auto-hit. |
| Fireclave02-10-08, 04:52 PM | If the opportunity presents itself we can likely get this though (Dark Sun being Psionics heavy), too bad its psionic warrior only... Do you have any other types of manifesters in your party? And can any of them manifest 5th level or higher powers? If so, then Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) is your friend. I also noticed the Iron Bands idea that was being throw around. The Bands of Steel and Wingbind spells in the SC are similar in effect, with Wingbind having the added benefits of being immune to dispelling and auto-canceling a creature's flight. You could also try having one character Scry on the enemy caster and somehow (likely magically) rely the caster's whereabouts to the rest of the party. ...As with all divination (scrying) spells, the sensor has your full visual acuity, including any magical effects. In addition, the following spells have a 5% chance per caster level of operating through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message. ... Assuming the caster doesn't have any anti-scrying effects going (which is probable), you have one caster sitting at "home base" relaying the enemy's where-abouts with True Seeing. For added effectiveness, since scry's magical sensor only extends for a 10ft radius, you'll probably also want to mark as much of potential battlefield as possible. There's a alchemical ink in the TaB that's only visible to creatures with darkvision. If you can force the mage into a more confined area, and if said mage does not have darkvision, he'll have know idea how you are tracking his movements. |
| Jackmojo02-10-08, 06:26 PM | Locate Creature will give you a good indication of the direction the wizard is in and which direction he is moving. Then hit the area with AE spells. Control Weather or Control Wind would be a good way to make it so he can't Fly, once he is grounded his manueverability is limited and locating him is easier. Greater Invisibility and fly can even the odds, also split up the party to reduce the effectiveness of AE spells, obscuring mist, Darkness, etc can provide cover for some who aren't help for looking. Iron Wall or other such barriers will limit the directions he can attack from. This list sounds like the discussion we had at the table during the fight :) Unfortunately we tried (and failed) with most of them: All scrying spells are blocked by Mindblank. Control Weather was actually already being cast when we got attacked as the badguys were using it to help their assault on our home city, the druid started casting it to stop them, but at 10 minutes to cast + 10 minutes to get an effect, its no good during combat. Control Winds lacks altitude (its got a huge area but its only a 40ft high cylinder). The Greater Invisiblity was used by our Beguiler...but the enemies own See Invisibility trumped it. Strangely enough the only two characters in the party who could fly were the Druid and the Cleric, the wizard teleports everywhere (but he is now grabbing fly at the first opportunity, live and learn). The Cleric was hiding the party in darkness (by using quench to douse lights) but given the numerous ways to beat this with spells ity had little effect (hiding in the nearby buildings worked though). Wall of Iron doesn't exist in Dark Sun, and the only wall spell anyone had was Wall of Force, which since its limited to being vertical is not so good vs. enemies above you. All valid ideas though :) Ready action + greater dispel, fireball and other aoe affects around the source of one of his spells could work. Just gotta spot the beams coming out of his finger. Yep, unfortunately this group outside of the druid and the beguiler is pretty hopeless at spot checks. It cuts through the invisibility miss chance, that's the salient point. If you can identify the square he's in, it's all but an auto-hit. Totally true, course we never managed to locate his square precisely till the cleric got him in True sight Range anyway :) Do you have any other types of manifesters in your party? And can any of them manifest 5th level or higher powers? If so, then Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) is your friend. Good Point, I'm not a Psionics person myself so I always forget that, I'll point it out to them, its quite the power. I also noticed the Iron Bands idea that was being throw around. The Bands of Steel and Wingbind spells in the SC are similar in effect, with Wingbind having the added benefits of being immune to dispelling and auto-canceling a creature's flight. Doubt our Wizard has either of those (and if he did, I doubt he keeps them prepared on a daily basis). But the Druid could probably start preparing Earthbind (the lesser version of Wingbind, odd the druids don't get the better one as well), since he likely has the spare second level slot. You could also try having one character Scry on the enemy caster and somehow (likely magically) rely the caster's whereabouts to the rest of the party. Assuming the caster doesn't have any anti-scrying effects going (which is probable), you have one caster sitting at "home base" relaying the enemy's where-abouts with True Seeing. For added effectiveness, since scry's magical sensor only extends for a 10ft radius, you'll probably also want to mark as much of potential battlefield as possible. There's a alchemical ink in the TaB that's only visible to creatures with darkvision. If you can force the mage into a more confined area, and if said mage does not have darkvision, he'll have know idea how you are tracking his movements. Mindblank unfortunately negates all sorts of good intelligence. Thanks for the continuing input everyone, even the hard to work ideas are worth having in the back of my head, since I know we're gonna throw down with this guy again, and he is likely too smart to let us do it in a way that will give us any advantage (although this was the second tiem we fought him and we did much better this time around, didn't lose a PC and he had to run not us :) ) Jack |
| Sinis02-10-08, 10:07 PM | Thanks for the continuing input everyone, even the hard to work ideas are worth having in the back of my head, since I know we're gonna throw down with this guy again, and he is likely too smart to let us do it in a way that will give us any advantage (although this was the second tiem we fought him and we did much better this time around, didn't lose a PC and he had to run not us :) ) Jack Let us know how it goes in any case. Any future ideas I get will be posted here. |
| High Octane02-10-08, 10:50 PM | So my party and I had our first (fairly unsuccessful) fight with an enemy using this spell, (A BoVD utilizing high level wizard, CL20 (but he has two racial HD and +1LA, so I am unsure of his actual level). For those unfamiliar, its essentially greater invisibility but lasts ten times as long and most importantly, cannot be pierced by most anti-invisibility options (it beats blindsight and Faerie Fire as examples) excluding True Seeing. Although the party is capable of casting this (in fact four of the five characters can), its that with the limited range of true seeing (120ft) we were easily being out maneuvered and blasted with long and medium range spells by our flying adversary. We eventually located him with a fairly dispersed search pattern but he teleported away before we could deal with him. Beyond using a rod of Metamagic: Enlarge to double the range of True Seeing, does anyone else have any suggestions on how to deal with a threat of this sort? Jack Flour. |
| Kimokeo02-10-08, 10:50 PM | An air elemental - any size. Give elemental Dust of Sneezing and Choking. Send elemental on a nice little adventure to find invisible caster. Once found, dust target. 5d4 rounds of stunned. Listen for the choking. |
| LordTarmos02-10-08, 11:46 PM | summon a dragon, demon or devil with true seeing or blind sight ( alt of creatures to choose from, alot of creatures with true seeing. you cast dualward and true seeing on yourself then when you find out where he is as immediate action from dualward spell cast area of effect version of greater dispel magic, boom he is there for all to see most likely then take him out, repeat as needed. |
| Novabomb02-11-08, 12:30 AM | First, and already mentioned, flour. Second, create water, you can create several gallons of water, that can cover a large area once you know his general location. |
| Jackmojo02-11-08, 01:42 AM | An air elemental - any size. Give elemental Dust of Sneezing and Choking. Send elemental on a nice little adventure to find invisible caster. Once found, dust target. 5d4 rounds of stunned. Listen for the choking. I must be missing something, how would the air elemental find him? summon a dragon, demon or devil with true seeing or blind sight ( alt of creatures to choose from, alot of creatures with true seeing. you cast dualward and true seeing on yourself then when you find out where he is as immediate action from dualward spell cast area of effect version of greater dispel magic, boom he is there for all to see most likely then take him out, repeat as needed. A valid suggestion, I just need to figure out which of these creatures would be available in setting, since no devils, dragons or demons in Dark sun as a general rule, although I'm sure there is something with True Seeing. First, and already mentioned, flour. Second, create water, you can create several gallons of water, that can cover a large area once you know his general location. Not practical, too big a possible area (flying CL20 wizard using long range spells, if my geometry hasn't left me in my old age that means he had something on the order of 3,616,410,000 cubic feet he could have been in), if he had been walking or somesuch perhaps....the problem with these sort of solutions is that any of them we would have been close enough to do, we would have already had him due to true seeing, I'm more looking for solutions that would work beyond its range. Let us know how it goes in any case. Any future ideas I get will be posted here. I will, and if we manage to come up with anything not covered here, I'll definetly toss it up as well, its a real ***** of a problem for sure. Jack |
| TheMonk02-11-08, 06:22 AM | Not sure if it's been posted, but you can defend yourself with a wall of force. Make one around you and your group members and he won't be able to fire rays at you, chain lightnings and other similar spells that need to be aimed. Glitterdust will reveal him, then just have other group members try to counterspell him. |
| Merestil Haye02-11-08, 06:44 AM | I must be missing something, how would the air elemental find him?The most practical way is to cast True Seeing on the elemental before he goes flying off. Otherwise it's down to hoping the Elemental bumps into the enemy. Not good chances with that, really. summon a dragon, demon or devil with true seeing or blind sight ( alt of creatures to choose from, alot of creatures with true seeing. you cast dualward and true seeing on yourself then when you find out where he is as immediate action from dualward spell cast area of effect version of greater dispel magic, boom he is there for all to see most likely then take him out, repeat as needed.While True Seeing works, Blindsight does not. Also, what makes you think that an area dispel will hit that one spell? Something else might get dispelled first. The only two ways to be sure you attempt to dispel the SI are (i) choose a targeted Dispel on the creature or (ii) target the Dispel on the SI directly (which you might do if worried about Spell Turning, for example). Not sure if it's been posted, but you can defend yourself with a wall of force. Make one around you and your group members and he won't be able to fire rays at you, chain lightnings and other similar spells that need to be aimed. Glitterdust will reveal him, then just have other group members try to counterspell him.Wall of Force doesn't help if the enemy flies over it and starts peppering you from behind. And you cannot make a dome. You can't even make a cylinder. Just a flat, vertical plane. And Glitterdust just doesn't work. If it's a core spell or ability, and not True Seeing, it doesn't work against Superior Invisibility. I listed the things that do work earlier. |
| Jackmojo02-11-08, 06:07 PM | The most practical way is to cast True Seeing on the elemental before he goes flying off. Otherwise it's down to hoping the Elemental bumps into the enemy. Not good chances with that, really. Ah, I guess I just think casting it on the PCs is more useful (other then the beguiler, none of us had more then one instance of it prepared). Also, what makes you think that an area dispel will hit that one spell? Something else might get dispelled first. The only two ways to be sure you attempt to dispel the SI are (i) choose a targeted Dispel on the creature or (ii) target the Dispel on the SI directly (which you might do if worried about Spell Turning, for example). Yeah, we really needed to hit him with several targeted dispels to be sure even, what with him being higher level then us. Wall of Force doesn't help if the enemy flies over it and starts peppering you from behind. And you cannot make a dome. You can't even make a cylinder. Just a flat, vertical plane. And Glitterdust just doesn't work. If it's a core spell or ability, and not True Seeing, it doesn't work against Superior Invisibility. I listed the things that do work earlier. Yeah, its a tough nut to crack at range. If we fight him next time in some sort of enclosed space, I doubt we'll have any issues with this sort of tactic, but the DM is smart enough to know that and is probably working up some new tricks for him to pull in that case. :) Jack |
| MrCustomer02-12-08, 12:27 PM | True strike isn't just +20 to hit. From the SRD: Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target It cuts through the invisibility miss chance, that's the salient point. If you can identify the square he's in, it's all but an auto-hit. It only cuts through the miss chance if you directly attack the exact 5' square that the wizard is in. True Strike is irrelevant if you don't know which square he is on. Now a fireball is a pea sized flame that the invisible Wizard is firing at the party from upwards of 400-700 feet away from an unknown direction. You roll that spot check to see where he is shooting from. |
| Sinis02-12-08, 04:08 PM | It only cuts through the miss chance if you directly attack the exact 5' square that the wizard is in. True Strike is irrelevant if you don't know which square he is on. Now a fireball is a pea sized flame that the invisible Wizard is firing at the party from upwards of 400-700 feet away from an unknown direction. You roll that spot check to see where he is shooting from. I agree that this is a more valid objection than "True Strike only gives you +20 to hit". The problem at this point is not True Strike being deficient, but the character's spot checks, and their ability to locate their assailant. In any case, something like a Disintegrate ray might better reveal the position of the invisible offender than something like Fireball or Acid Arrow. |
| High Octane02-12-08, 05:30 PM | It only cuts through the miss chance if you directly attack the exact 5' square that the wizard is in. True Strike is irrelevant if you don't know which square he is on. This is true. People forget that the 50% miss chance is in ADDITION to the person having to guess which square the invisible person is in. Which is what the blind fight feat is all about (You can guess twice which square the annoying prat is in.) |
| Merestil Haye02-12-08, 07:05 PM | This is true. People forget that the 50% miss chance is in ADDITION to the person having to guess which square the invisible person is in. Which is what the blind fight feat is all about (You can guess twice which square the annoying prat is in.)No, actually you can't. You get two attempts to beat the concealment he has. You can still attack only one square. The feat :Benefit In melee, every time you miss because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit. An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker’s bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however. You take only half the usual penalty to speed for being unable to see. Darkness and poor visibility in general reduces your speed to three-quarters normal, instead of one-half. |
| wonlee7602-12-08, 08:23 PM | Didn't read the prior posts so this idea may have been suggested. Why not just go invisible yourself via potion or scroll or whatever. Enemy could then spray and pray his long range AoEs in the hopes of catching some of you in the area of affect. Enemy could try to use True Seeing/See Invisibility but if he does that to look for you, he falls in the range of your own true seeing abilities. On paper it looks like a good counter plan to Superior Invisibility. |
| Jackmojo02-13-08, 11:42 AM | Didn't read the prior posts so this idea may have been suggested. Why not just go invisible yourself via potion or scroll or whatever. Enemy could then spray and pray his long range AoEs in the hopes of catching some of you in the area of affect. Enemy could try to use True Seeing/See Invisibility but if he does that to look for you, he falls in the range of your own true seeing abilities. On paper it looks like a good counter plan to Superior Invisibility. We'd have needed Superior Invisibility ourselves to counter that, and didn't have it at the time of the fight. There is no range limitation on See Invisibility if they could see you normally they can with See Invisibility, which would have pierced any invisibility we had access too. I'm fairly certain he had either See Invisibility or the spell from the spell compendium that gives you dragon senses (5ft / CL blindsense being the key bit). Not a bad plan though, just unworkable at the time, if it comes up in the future we may be able to implement it. Jack |
| Kimokeo02-13-08, 10:50 PM | "Originally Posted by Jackmojo I must be missing something, how would the air elemental find him? The most practical way is to cast True Seeing on the elemental before he goes flying off. Otherwise it's down to hoping the Elemental bumps into the enemy. Not good chances with that, really." I raised the Air Elemental as an option because of its flying speed.100'. If an enemy caster does anything visibly, the elemental has the fastest speed to reach the target. It would take an elemental less time to find the enemy than other flying beings,IMO |